Oregon Mom kills her four year old son, because she thinks he's "gay"

EnDash

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
1,862
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Similarly - we don't go around killing each other for whatever reason... until someone is shooting up a school for whatever reason. Then it really doesn't matter what the laws are - that event will continue to unfold until someone puts a stop to it.

We don't go around stealing from each other... until someone does. Then they realize they can get what they want for free, and continue... until someone puts a stop to it.
humans and probably nature are very chaotic and unpredictable. it's considerably easier to destroy then it is to keep things holding together. which is why we built systems trying to prevent that. maybe it's hopeless but i think it's better to try then to give up.

i'll give as an example an army invading a land, what is stopping every soldier from laying down his arms and refuse to operate? if they would do that it would be chaos, the army will crumble in a day, it will be impossible to know what happens next, and many people will die 100% needlessly. and yet that doesn't really happens. somehow we built a system, "the army", that acts in a predictable, controllable, less likely to surprise way.

we should try and build a system of living where 4 year old kids won't get beaten and murdered by their parents. period.
 

Goetia

Active member
Supreme
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
34,485
Kin
3,218💸
Kumi
109,579💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
humans and probably nature are very chaotic and unpredictable. it's considerably easier to destroy then it is to keep things holding together. which is why we built systems trying to prevent that. maybe it's hopeless but i think it's better to try then to give up.

i'll give as an example an army invading a land, what is stopping every soldier from laying down his arms and refuse to operate? if they would do that it would be chaos, the army will crumble in a day, it will be impossible to know what happens next, and many people will die 100% needlessly. and yet that doesn't really happens. somehow we built a system, "the army", that acts in a predictable, controllable, less likely to surprise way.

we should try and build a system of living where 4 year old kids won't get beaten and murdered by their parents. period.
Society HAS tried to create a system that has that effect, but it is ineffective.
 

EnDash

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
1,862
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Society HAS tried to create a system that has that effect, but it is ineffective.
so what should we do? nothing? sit back and watch as parents kill their children and children kill other children?

we should try with everything we have to keep that from happening, and when that fails we should try again. because the alternative is extinction. if humans can't live without killing one another then they shouldn't live at all.

there's this joke that if there wasn't a law against murder, the majority of people would murder all the time, evil people would murder even more, and good people would only murder on occasion. this 4 year old kid's story just make that joke seem all too real.
 

Aim64C

Active member
Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
3,681
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
1:The Law won't stop you from killing someone,but you'll still end up in jail for doing it.
Not necessarily. The crime would have to be linked to me, to begin with. Then the prosecution must have sufficient evidence.

There is also the other alternative. I could simply kill off the local police and many of the government officials and declare an independent jurisdiction.

"Well, the State or Nation would come in to do something about that."

Maybe. Depends upon how many people I have in agreement with me. We could write our own laws, defend our own borders, etc. Either the nation will overwhelm us and kill off most of us in the process, or they'll get tired of sending people to their death to try and convince us we need to stay a part of them.

2:the only time killing is justified,is when it's self defense.
There are plenty of justifiable reasons to kill a person. People who represent imminent threats, for example. You might say that it is "self defense" - but the moment I start killing off people of the progressive mentality (because they create authoritarian governments that start locking people up in gulags) - your interpretation will become more strict.

3:My point was that you shouldn't kill someone just because you disagree with them,or you don't agree with their lifestyle.
Well, yes, and most of the things you are doing in your life right now, you shouldn't be doing.

4:Still doesn't Make it right.
"Right" and "What actually happens" do not need to be the same thing.

5:You Would still get arrested,you would be seen as a hate group,and would be stopped.
And then they can undo what has been done?

I burn all of your red shirts. You can arrest me and gang-rape me until I die, or send me to court where a million life sentences are placed on me for being a 'hateful' person. It's not bringing back the shirts that were burned. It does not undo what has been done.

6:That's Russia's problem,doesn't effect me.I don't like what theryre doing,but still doesn't effect me.
It's not Russia's problem. Russia's getting what they want.

It's Ukraine's problem. It's the Baltic and Balkan population's problem.

You can dislike what they are doing all you want to. It's not going to change what they are doing. You can call them hateful. You can call them barbaric and of a lower caste... doesn't change what happens.

It doesn't change the reality of the people who get absorbed into Putin's sphere of command.

7:There will always be criminals,and they go to jail for it anyway,so I don't see your point.
You must be registered for see images


Plenty of people get along in life by being criminals. They steal what they need, kill who gets in their way, and a relatively low percentage of them ever find themselves behind bars.

And that is just of the reported incidents. Plenty of missing persons go unreported. Plenty of skeletons do not get found.

This idea that laws somehow keep society in check is absolutely ridiculous. Laws are scribblings atop paper. If you want your neck of the woods to stay in check, you cannot rely upon laws and notions of "you will be hated" to keep it that way.

8:Same as 7.
Reality is a very hard concept for kids today to grasp, I understand. It's unfortunate that the upcoming mandatory enrollment into the school of hard knocks is the only way people will begin to understand this.

humans and probably nature are very chaotic and unpredictable. it's considerably easier to destroy then it is to keep things holding together. which is why we built systems trying to prevent that. maybe it's hopeless but i think it's better to try then to give up.
You misunderstand.

Laws do not protect society. People protect society. The size of our jail system is an indication of just how disconnected from this role we are. Most of those people should either A. not be there, or B. have been executed long ago. Jails are zoos built in a testament to our own misguided self-righteousness.

Juries debate guilt based on sentencing: "I wont find him guilty of something that can put him to death, but I will agree on a jailable offense."

They'll lock people up for years on end without hard evidence because they don't have the balls to say: "kill him."

The legal system should have two possible sentences. A monetary/service fine. Death. If they aren't scary enough to kill, then they aren't too scary to have running around on the streets.

Prison should only be temporary awaiting trial and during a short appeals process (none of this fifteen year bullshit - if they are still alive in prison within a year of the sentencing, select a random judge from the circuit and execute him/her along with the criminal).

i'll give as an example an army invading a land, what is stopping every soldier from laying down his arms and refuse to operate? if they would do that it would be chaos, the army will crumble in a day, it will be impossible to know what happens next, and many people will die 100% needlessly. and yet that doesn't really happens. somehow we built a system, "the army", that acts in a predictable, controllable, less likely to surprise way.
Well, that's how people not in the military perceive it.

we should try and build a system of living where 4 year old kids won't get beaten and murdered by their parents. period.
We don't need to focus on building a society that does anything. That is what creates most of the problems.

Why don't families like these get help?

Because we have built a system where we try to take people's kids away and throw parents in jail.

I can't act as a concerned citizen. I can't get a group of people together to go talk to a couple who I suspect is abusing their child. The moment I do - some department will get wind of it and decide to start throwing law enforcement officers around.

Bluntly - no child's safety is worth that kind of price of liberty.

It's some other person's kid. Not mine. If they get stupid and kill the kid off - it's tragic, but less competition my kid has to worry about.

That may sound callous - but it is better than a society where we hide from each other out of fear that the authorities will get involved because someone disagrees with the fact that discipline was used, or that someone showed their child a holy book.

The problem of child abuse will decline in a world where we are not constantly trying to shove law enforcement in each other's face.
 

EnDash

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
1,862
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Not necessarily. The crime would have to be linked to me, to begin with. Then the prosecution must have sufficient evidence.

There is also the other alternative. I could simply kill off the local police and many of the government officials and declare an independent jurisdiction.

"Well, the State or Nation would come in to do something about that."

Maybe. Depends upon how many people I have in agreement with me. We could write our own laws, defend our own borders, etc. Either the nation will overwhelm us and kill off most of us in the process, or they'll get tired of sending people to their death to try and convince us we need to stay a part of them.



There are plenty of justifiable reasons to kill a person. People who represent imminent threats, for example. You might say that it is "self defense" - but the moment I start killing off people of the progressive mentality (because they create authoritarian governments that start locking people up in gulags) - your interpretation will become more strict.



Well, yes, and most of the things you are doing in your life right now, you shouldn't be doing.



"Right" and "What actually happens" do not need to be the same thing.



And then they can undo what has been done?

I burn all of your red shirts. You can arrest me and gang-rape me until I die, or send me to court where a million life sentences are placed on me for being a 'hateful' person. It's not bringing back the shirts that were burned. It does not undo what has been done.



It's not Russia's problem. Russia's getting what they want.

It's Ukraine's problem. It's the Baltic and Balkan population's problem.

You can dislike what they are doing all you want to. It's not going to change what they are doing. You can call them hateful. You can call them barbaric and of a lower caste... doesn't change what happens.

It doesn't change the reality of the people who get absorbed into Putin's sphere of command.



You must be registered for see images


Plenty of people get along in life by being criminals. They steal what they need, kill who gets in their way, and a relatively low percentage of them ever find themselves behind bars.

And that is just of the reported incidents. Plenty of missing persons go unreported. Plenty of skeletons do not get found.

This idea that laws somehow keep society in check is absolutely ridiculous. Laws are scribblings atop paper. If you want your neck of the woods to stay in check, you cannot rely upon laws and notions of "you will be hated" to keep it that way.



Reality is a very hard concept for kids today to grasp, I understand. It's unfortunate that the upcoming mandatory enrollment into the school of hard knocks is the only way people will begin to understand this.



You misunderstand.

Laws do not protect society. People protect society. The size of our jail system is an indication of just how disconnected from this role we are. Most of those people should either A. not be there, or B. have been executed long ago. Jails are zoos built in a testament to our own misguided self-righteousness.

Juries debate guilt based on sentencing: "I wont find him guilty of something that can put him to death, but I will agree on a jailable offense."

They'll lock people up for years on end without hard evidence because they don't have the balls to say: "kill him."

The legal system should have two possible sentences. A monetary/service fine. Death. If they aren't scary enough to kill, then they aren't too scary to have running around on the streets.

Prison should only be temporary awaiting trial and during a short appeals process (none of this fifteen year bullshit - if they are still alive in prison within a year of the sentencing, select a random judge from the circuit and execute him/her along with the criminal).



Well, that's how people not in the military perceive it.



We don't need to focus on building a society that does anything. That is what creates most of the problems.

Why don't families like these get help?

Because we have built a system where we try to take people's kids away and throw parents in jail.

I can't act as a concerned citizen. I can't get a group of people together to go talk to a couple who I suspect is abusing their child. The moment I do - some department will get wind of it and decide to start throwing law enforcement officers around.

Bluntly - no child's safety is worth that kind of price of liberty.

It's some other person's kid. Not mine. If they get stupid and kill the kid off - it's tragic, but less competition my kid has to worry about.

That may sound callous - but it is better than a society where we hide from each other out of fear that the authorities will get involved because someone disagrees with the fact that discipline was used, or that someone showed their child a holy book.

The problem of child abuse will decline in a world where we are not constantly trying to shove law enforcement in each other's face.
ugh, too much to read and answer. not worth it. but...

Laws do not protect society. People protect society.
society is people, the problem is the people, and people protect society.

it's why i don't trust people to protect anyone. we need an outside intrusive forced system to stop us from killing each other.
 
Top