Opinions

[mlickko]

Well, i thought about this thread a little ago and now i'm making it.

I'd like to hear everyone's opinions and arguments, as why you don't like or hate Bleach (manga). It's not that i want to make flame or anything, i just often read things like :

"Bleach has no plot."
"Kubo Tite's writing is too predictible"
"It's just bad."

Now i'd like to read your honest opinions, and not just shots in the air about bad things in Bleach. It would be nice of you to write full story of your disliking.

And please do not compare it with other Shounen Mangas like Naruto or OP since we all know that all of them are aiming at different thing. I personally really like all three of them and i'm just trying to understand other's opinions. :scorps:

p.s: I'm prolly mostly active in bleach section here on NB but it's just because here i can read more coherent and clever things and in Naruto section there is too much harsh arguing. :izuna:

 

[Naruto N. Uzumaki]

mainly its fillers happen in the middle of a fight? i hate that soooooo much

ps and the plot

 

[David Walker]

when i first saw bleach as an anime (i was late to the show btw) i loved the whole premise of it all, it was original, the characters interacted and developed and the plot progressed.

then ichigo saved rukia, aizen / kubo started the major trolling... and all that slowly unravelled.. I think kubo was like ive hit the jackpot here, and instead of continuing the development decided to just rinse repeat, either that or he just cannot plan long term in terms of storyline...

i mean imagine for a second if Aizens illusion abilities werent what they were, there would have been a dozen less plot-kai's and we would have long since moved onto fresh storylines ... or bleach would have ended.

Which lets face it isnt the worst thing to happen if its the right time for a show to end and its done well, better it ends gracefully than lingers on painfully ...

 

[mlickko]

The plot is simply too predictable. It's almost always the same thing. Ichigo is weak, enemy shows up, enemy beats him. After said enemy beats him, two things can happen: Either Ichigo goes back to training, grows stronger and whoops his ass, or during the fight he gets a power-up because of his so called "resolve".

It happened in Ichigo vs Byakuya, Ichigo vs Kenpachi, Ichigo vs Ulquiorra, Ichigo vs Grimmjow, Ichigo vs Aizen and Ichigo vs Ginjo. I guarantee you the next arc will be no different. The only thing that might distract said reader from the predictable fights are the flashy moves and Aizen's/Ginjo's trolling.

Not to mention the stupid stereotypes some characters have. The nerdy guy (Ishida), the tsundere chick (Rukia), the bishounen (Byakuya), the helpless girl in love with the hero (Orihime), the silent companion (Chad), and so on, and so forth.

A few characters like Yoruichi, Gin, Kenpachi (even though he's a stereotype, he's still badass) and Urahara luckily stand out.

The second problem I have is that the cast is just too big, which doesn't give much time for character development, and that's how you get these stereotypical, cardboard flat characters.

But, even with the glaring flaws Bleach has, I can't get enough of it. Dunno why, call me crazy, but I can't help but watch every episode and read every chapter when it comes out xD

Hmm, nice response

What would you, if you were Kubo? I mean, sure the pattern is repeating itself, but on the other hand, i can't think of something absolutely new that would shock everyone. In every great story hero gets beaten up at first but he comes again stronger right?
If it wasn't : Ichigo is weak and enemy beats him up but Ichigo is too strong and he beats up enemy instead, wouldn't it be boring?

Not trying to discourage btw, want to know your opinion. :scorps:

P.S: Yeah, as i said i like Naruto and OP as well but Bleach is special for me, Ichigo is truly human character no matter what happens to him

 

[Mercy]

Spoiler

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Bleach is still above Naruto for me tho.​

 

[mlickko]

when i first saw bleach as an anime (i was late to the show btw) i loved the whole premise of it all, it was original, the characters interacted and developed and the plot progressed.

then ichigo saved rukia, aizen / kubo started the major trolling... and all that slowly unravelled.. I think kubo was like ive hit the jackpot here, and instead of continuing the development decided to just rinse repeat, either that or he just cannot plan long term in terms of storyline...

i mean imagine for a second if Aizens illusion abilities werent what they were, there would have been a dozen less plot-kai's and we would have long since moved onto fresh storylines ... or bleach would have ended.

Which lets face it isnt the worst thing to happen if its the right time for a show to end and its done well, better it ends gracefully than lingers on painfully ...

Mm, agreed, at the beginning Bleach story just rang my bells too , it was truly perfect (well it is perfect for me still but that is irrelevant).
And i'm always reading about trolling...can somebody tell me, what do you mean by trolling?...Explanation of Aizen character oooorrrr ?

 

[mlickko]

Spoiler

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Bleach is still above Naruto for me tho.​

I lol'd hard
That picture is funny as well as sad

 

[David Walker]

Mm, agreed, at the beginning Bleach story just rang my bells too , it was truly perfect (well it is perfect for me still but that is irrelevant).
And i'm always reading about trolling...can somebody tell me, what do you mean by trolling?...Explanation of Aizen character oooorrrr ?

by 'trolling' I am refering mainly to the way kubo wrote aizen as a character / the way he used him in the storyline....

i mean if you went through the manga and tried to do a quick summary of the storylines main twists and turns, itd be impossible, because everything is a plan within a plan to deceive someone ...to get them to do something for another plan thats actually an illusion. :shrug:

Several people talked about the repitition of events / lack of change...well IMHO thats down to Aizens stupid ability, you would see ichicgo (or whoever) battle his way through an arc, and then next chapter aizen would go... trolololol and say it was all his plan. Its okay once or twice...but not every time...

PS: my definitition of trolling here may not be the one that everybody else thinks off. just saying.

 

[mlickko]

by 'trolling' I am refering mainly to the way kubo wrote aizen as a character / the way he used him in the storyline....

i mean if you went through the manga and tried to do a quick summary of the storylines main twists and turns, itd be impossible, because everything is a plan within a plan to deceive someone ...to get them to do something for another plan thats actually an illusion. :shrug:

Several people talked about the repitition of events / lack of change...well IMHO thats down to Aizens stupid ability, you would see ichicgo (or whoever) battle his way through an arc, and then next chapter aizen would go... trolololol and say it was all his plan. Its okay once or twice...but not every time...

PS: my definitition of trolling here may not be the one that everybody else thinks off. just saying.

I see, so basically, it didn't suit you, that whatever Ichigo did, no matter how hard he tried, he couldn't do any difference cause it was all according to someone else's plan?...If that's the case, i kinda understand, it was a little unnerving :flaw:

 

[NLee]

I spend a lot of time on the Bleach Section. The reason Bleach doesn't have a very compelling story is because two of the major arcs have been nearly identical.

Soul Society Arc
-Rukia is taken
-Ichigo trains to get stronger (develops his Shinigami powers)
-Invades Soul Society with allies
-Rivalry Battle (vs Renji)
-Semi-Major Battle (vs Kenpachi)
-Undergoes final training (learns Bankai)
-Major Battle (Byakuya)
-End of Arc

Hueco Mundo Arc
-Inoue gets taken
-Ichigo trains to get stronger (develops his Hollow powers)
-Invades Hueco Mundo with allies
-Rivalry Battle (vs Grimmjow)
-Semi-Major Battle (vs Ulquiorra)
-Undergoes final training (learns Final Getsuga Tenshou)
-Major Battle (Aizen)
-End of Arc

Obviously there are minor differences in these two arcs, but the general outline is exactly the same.

This is even worse when you realize that Bleach has been going on for almost 8-10 years now with hardly any real story development in these part two arcs.


Another major problem with the Bleach manga is the chapter panels. Kubo draws them so damn big that each chapter hardly progresses the story. In some cases Kubo will make an entire page with no dialogue whatsoever which is essentially a waste of a page and time. This is why Bleach has been going on for so long in real time, but in story time it's hardly progressed.

I like Bleach, but there are obvious faults with it's story. The Anime's cancellation already tells us something. Unless Kubo gets his head out of his ass it's only going to get worse.

This final Thousand Year Blood War Arc has some seriously high expectations from avid (and, unfortunately, disappointed) fans like me

 

[mlickko]

I spend a lot of time on the Bleach Section. The reason Bleach doesn't have a very compelling story is because two of the major arcs have been nearly identical.

Soul Society Arc
-Rukia is taken
-Ichigo trains to get stronger (develops his Shinigami powers)
-Invades Soul Society with allies
-Rivalry Battle (vs Renji)
-Semi-Major Battle (vs Kenpachi)
-Undergoes final training (learns Bankai)
-Major Battle (Byakuya)
-End of Arc

Hueco Mundo Arc
-Inoue gets taken
-Ichigo trains to get stronger (develops his Hollow powers)
-Invades Hueco Mundo with allies
-Rivalry Battle (vs Grimmjow)
-Semi-Major Battle (vs Ulquiorra)
-Undergoes final training (learns Final Getsuga Tenshou)
-Major Battle (Aizen)
-End of Arc

Obviously there are minor differences in these two arcs, but the general outline is exactly the same.

This is even worse when you realize that Bleach has been going on for almost 8-10 years now with hardly any real story development in these part two arcs.


Another major problem with the Bleach manga is the chapter panels. Kubo draws them so damn big that each chapter hardly progresses the story. In some cases Kubo will make an entire page with no dialogue whatsoever which is essentially a waste of a page and time. This is why Bleach has been going on for so long in real time, but in story time it's hardly progressed.

I like Bleach, but there are obvious faults with it's story. The Anime's cancellation already tells us something. Unless Kubo gets his head out of his ass it's only going to get worse.

This final Thousand Year Blood War Arc has some seriously high expectations from avid (and, unfortunately, disappointed) fans like me

Very nice. Seems like you were pondering about pros and cons of Bleach in the past.
The thing with panels is true. On the other hand sometimes i love his big panels, but only when they are to show some major bad-assary, for example like Ichigo's Bankai or Ichigo post-Dangai, these were moments that were truly meant to be on a whole page. But it seems that Kubo uses them too much. His drawings has surely improved, but as you said, more plot would be nice.
I hope that anime will be put on hiatus just for manga to have some heads up. If it'd be stopped entirely just before final arc, it would be a huge kick in the balls for every fan... U_U

Just one thing, wasn't Hueco Mundo arc actually two arcs? I'm sure i saw somewhere title Arrancar's arc.

 

[NLee]

I don't know, but it's basically one big arc. Technically, I guess you could split it up but it's basically one big arc centered on Aizen's threat to Soul Society in general

 

[mlickko]

I wanted to add: "Dont't forget about Fullbring Arc" but since you wrote "major arcs" i decided to let it go as this arc was everything but major

 

[NLee]

Yeah it wasn't a major arc, but I'm sure it's going to become relevant later on. Kubo included it for a reason so it'll probably set-up for something yet to come

 

[mlickko]

Yeah it wasn't a major arc, but I'm sure it's going to become relevant later on. Kubo included it for a reason so it'll probably set-up for something yet to come

Hopefully, i wouldn't mind seeing your avatar again

 

[NLee]

Yup, Riruka sure is hot xd

 

[|KirA|]

kubo had a super idea. the first arcs were brilliant and then he destroyed it.

 

[mlickko]

kubo had a super idea. the first arcs were brilliant and then he destroyed it.

If you can, be specific. Why do you think he destroyed it? And how? I'm curious.

 

[NLee]

Correction: The first arc (singular) was brilliant

After that it was downhill. It was cool to explore a Hollow side to Ichigo's strength in the Arrancar Arc, but plot/story-wise, it was essentially recycled crap from the Soul Society Arc (look above for what I'm talking about)

The Lost Agent Arc was actually very interesting, but it was way too short. I don't even know what Kubo was thinking. All I can assume is that what we saw from the Lost Agent Arc and Xcution is a set-up for something later on

The Thousand Year Blood War Arc is proceeding very nicely though. The very thought of another Quincy vs Shinigami conflict is marvelous.

We already have some additional tidbits from Kubo himself from the Restart and Reboot magazine articles a while ago:
-Grimmjow "might" come back (Kubo himself said "I think he'll be back")
-Nell "might" come back (Kubo himself said "I think she'll be back")
-Ryuken and Isshin's relationship will be revealed
-Hitsugaya has finally mastered his Bankai. His zanpaktou chain is also different
-Yamamoto has had a change of heart
-Unohana and her zanpaktou will finally be seen in a battle and her large braids unravel when she fights

I'm lazy right now so don't ask me for sources. The threads are buried in the Bleach section somewhere

 

[David Walker]

I see, so basically, it didn't suit you, that whatever Ichigo did, no matter how hard he tried, he couldn't do any difference cause it was all according to someone else's plan?...If that's the case, i kinda understand, it was a little unnerving :flaw:

no its not that what ichigo did wasnt enough (until the final GT) that irritated me, it was the sheer repitition. i used aizens ability as an example of that.

plot devices such as aizens ability were awesome the first time of seeing them, pretty cool the next couple of times, but after a zillion uses you resent the lack of progress.

basically the post by somebody previously who compared the steps in the plots of 'rescue rukia' and 'rescue inoue' arcs. summed up the issue quite astutely.