[Predictions] One Piece Manga Chapter 823 Discussion and 824 Predictions

[Simpleatitsbest]

Missed this. And how is this unique to Zoro when Sanji has done the same thing countless times? If this defends Zoro being first mate, then someone can say Sanji is the first mate and bring up all the stuff he ran off to do on his own decisions, which I've listed more than a couple times here already. It's not a solid argument at all.

Maybe you missed my point, it wasn't solely that he did something off of his own whim without asking Luffy, it's the act he did which could have seriously jeopardized the adventure of the crew if something had gone wrong, but Zoro was confident in the fact that he could exercise his command and actions without doing so. Sanji's actions with the Gates of Heaven which you keep mentioning again and again is why Sanji as a character is so great, he's one of my favorites because even though he might not be as strong as Zoro (yes, that's my take on that), his intellectual level brings him on par as to how useful he is... It's no strange concept however that pretty much so far throughout the story it seems the second strongest of the crew happens to be the First Mate, so although and I previously mentioned, the Strawhats haven't mentioned any titles, in the OPverse and most certainly to the viewers, I don't see how Oda can make it any clearer that Zoro is the First Mate of the Strawhat crew. I think his act with Kuma 100% personifies this and should really solidify his place as such, fair enough Sanji tried to also take the hit, but Zoro personally was prepared to give up his own dream and knew that after Luffy, he's next up in line for the guillotine to save his crew.

Oda honestly has shown time and time again, and without having to set up a hierarchy system within the Strawhat crew has portrayed this brilliantly if you ask me... A Strawhat doesn't and shouldn't have to say Zoro is the First Mate for him to be set-up or labelled as one, he lets his creative writing do this for him.

 

[loj]

Maybe you missed my point, it wasn't solely that he did something off of his own whim without asking Luffy, it's the act he did which could have seriously jeopardized the adventure of the crew if something had gone wrong, but Zoro was confident in the fact that he could exercise his command and actions without doing so. Sanji's actions with the Gates of Heaven which you keep mentioning again and again is why Sanji as a character is so great, he's one of my favorites because even though he might not be as strong as Zoro (yes, that's my take on that), his intellectual level brings him on par as to how useful he is... It's no strange concept however that pretty much so far throughout the story it seems the second strongest of the crew happens to be the First Mate, so although and I previously mentioned, the Strawhats haven't mentioned any titles, in the OPverse and most certainly to the viewers, I don't see how Oda can make it any clearer that Zoro is the First Mate of the Strawhat crew. I think his act with Kuma 100% personifies this and should really solidify his place as such, fair enough Sanji tried to also take the hit, but Zoro personally was prepared to give up his own dream and knew that after Luffy, he's next up in line for the guillotine to save his crew.

Oda honestly has shown time and time again, and without having to set up a hierarchy system within the Strawhat crew has portrayed this brilliantly if you ask me... A Strawhat doesn't and shouldn't have to say Zoro is the First Mate for him to be set-up or labelled as one, he lets his creative writing do this for him.

I literally said him the same and he denied it...idk if Riker is fapping on Sanji now or what...Can't get any more obvious on Zoro part being the first mate.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Maybe you missed my point, it wasn't solely that he did something off of his own whim without asking Luffy, it's the act he did which could have seriously jeopardized the adventure of the crew if something had gone wrong, but Zoro was confident in the fact that he could exercise his command and actions without doing so.

And how is this unique to Zoro? Sanji has done the same thing more times. So if this incident acts as a strong defense for Zoro being first mate, Sanji doing the same thing more times means he has this same defense, only stronger.

Just like Loalagja;guaugh's panel of Zoro screaming at Luffy, it doesn't really help your case when other Strawhats have done the exact same thing. If Zoro is the sole first mate, then there needs to be panels of solely Zoro doing what makes the first mate.

It's no strange concept however that pretty much so far throughout the story it seems the second strongest of the crew happens to be the First Mate

By portrayal, Marco was the first mate of the WB pirates, but Jozu was stronger. Jango was the first mate of Kuro's crew, but appeared to not be the strongest. So not always.

so although and I previously mentioned, the Strawhats haven't mentioned any titles, in the OPverse and most certainly to the viewers, I don't see how Oda can make it any clearer that Zoro is the First Mate of the Strawhat crew

By making him, and only him, do what a First Mate does. Which Oda has not.

I think his act with Kuma 100% personifies this and should really solidify his place as such, fair enough Sanji tried to also take the hit, but Zoro personally was prepared to give up his own dream and knew that after Luffy, he's next up in line for the guillotine to save his crew.

I have to once again ask, how is this unique to Zoro when every Strawhat was willing to give up their dream and die for Luffy on Thriller Bark against Kuma?

 

[A v i]

And how is this unique to Zoro? Sanji has done the same thing more times. So if this incident acts as a strong defense for Zoro being first mate, Sanji doing the same thing more times means he has this same defense, only stronger.

Just like Loalagja;guaugh's panel of Zoro screaming at Luffy, it doesn't really help your case when other Strawhats have done the exact same thing. If Zoro is the sole first mate, then there needs to be panels of solely Zoro doing what makes the first mate.



By portrayal, Marco was the first mate of the WB pirates, but Jozu was stronger. Jango was the first mate of Kuro's crew, but appeared to not be the strongest. So not always.



By making him, and only him, do what a First Mate does. Which Oda has not.


I have to once again ask, how is this unique to Zoro when every Strawhat was willing to give up their dream and die for Luffy on Thriller Bark against Kuma?

So, being first mate means being unique now? Fine, Show a panel of a SH "excluding Luffy" holding enough authority to say that he/she doesn't allow another crew member to join back the crew? I hope you won't come up with random excuses.:yeah:

While you're at that, try telling me why you think the point of Zoro being the only one to take on the second strongest/the person right next to captain's opponent in all major battles "which is what almost every other vice captain would do in other crews in general" didn't look unique to you?

And how is this unique to Zoro? Sanji has done the same thing more times. So if this incident acts as a strong defense for Zoro being first mate, Sanji doing the same thing more times means he has this same defense, only stronger.

Sanji never took command when other crew members are involved and act on his own regardless of what the crew members involved have to say akin to what Zoro did at FMI.

Just like Loalagja;guaugh's panel of Zoro screaming at Luffy, it doesn't really help your case when other Strawhats have done the exact same thing. If Zoro is the sole first mate, then there needs to be panels of solely Zoro doing what makes the first mate.

They aren't even remotely close to being same, Zoro was scolding Luffy for not taking things seriously. When, the rest are simply being emotional and were vocally expressing their frustration by yelling at Luffy.

Your father scolding you for not taking your studies seriously and you yelling at him out of frustration for not purchasing your favorite dress aren't same thing at all.

By portrayal, Marco was the first mate of the WB pirates, but Jozu was stronger. Jango was the first mate of Kuro's crew, but appeared to not be the strongest. So not always.

Lel, How came Jozu is stronger than Marco? Regardless, you don't take rare cases for granted while forming logical conclusions. Vice captain is in almost all cases the second strongest in the crew. Buggy isn't the strongest in his crew, that doesn't mean Luffy, Shanks, Whitebeard and Kaido aren't the strongest of their respective crews. It's a commonly accepted norm in OP world that the strongest person in a crew is usually the captain. Likewise, it's widely accepted that a vice captain is someone who's right next to the captain in terms of strength. The same dynamic was followed by the previous pirate kings crew. So, there is no reason to believe it to be different in this case.

By making him, and only him, do what a First Mate does. Which Oda has not.

He did that plenty of times, remove the salt in your eyes, then you may be able to see the light.

I have to once again ask, how is this unique to Zoro when every Strawhat was willing to give up their dream and die for Luffy on Thriller Bark against Kuma?

What makes Zoro unique is that he was hand picked by Oda to suffer in Luffy's stead which is what a VC supposed to do. Even fodder number #2836 in WB's crew would be willing to die for him but the only one Oda'd choose to shoulder Whitebeard's burden will be Marco. It'd be same for Shanks crew or Even Roger's crew.

 

[loj]

And how is this unique to Zoro? Sanji has done the same thing more times. So if this incident acts as a strong defense for Zoro being first mate, Sanji doing the same thing more times means he has this same defense, only stronger.

Just like Loalagja;guaugh's panel of Zoro screaming at Luffy, it doesn't really help your case when other Strawhats have done the exact same thing. If Zoro is the sole first mate, then there needs to be panels of solely Zoro doing what makes the first mate.



By portrayal, Marco was the first mate of the WB pirates, but Jozu was stronger. Jango was the first mate of Kuro's crew, but appeared to not be the strongest. So not always.



By making him, and only him, do what a First Mate does. Which Oda has not.


I have to once again ask, how is this unique to Zoro when every Strawhat was willing to give up their dream and die for Luffy on Thriller Bark against Kuma?

Bruh...Zoro acted like a champ and took the whole pain to himself.I showed you the panel of Zoro doing again first mate things and you ignored it xd fuk me but if you still don't see it I don't think you ever will...That Zoro screaming was totally different than others doing I literally don't know how you don't see it.

Usopp screaming was encouragement.
Nami screaming was encouragement.

Zoro bloody threaten Luffy if he doesn't get his shit right he will rekt him...how's that the same is beyond me...That's the difference in other's and Zoro.Zoro again acted in that situation like first mate and that's not the first time he did it...

The panel I showed you was not 'cause Zoro screamed...it's what he meant.Even Sanji said "you are stict"...

So...

One Piece wiki said Zoro acted/acts like first mate.
Urogue said Zoro is first mate.
Bartolomeo said Zoro is first mate.

Riker...Zoro is not first mate.

Either you are trolling or you are ignorant xd Since Oda literally threw it in your face few times.Knowing you and how much you get into One Piece people would think you'd know that by now...

 

[Punk Hazard]

So, being first mate means being unique now? Fine, Show a panel of a SH "excluding Luffy" holding enough authority to say that he/she doesn't allow another crew member to join back the crew? I hope you won't come up with random excuses.:yeah:

Zoro never said he wouldn't allow Usopp to join again. He said would reject Usopp, and clarified that this meant if Usopp was able to freely join, he would leave the crew. That's not commanding,

While you're at that, try telling me why you think the point of Zoro being the only one to take on the second strongest/the person right next to captain's opponent in all major battles "which is what almost every other vice captain would do in other crews in general" didn't look unique to you?

This hasn't happened since Enies Lobby. Thriller Bark was the first arc that disregarded this formula, meaning Oda hasn't used it in over 8 years.

Sanji never took command when other crew members are involved and act on his own regardless of what the crew members involved have to say akin to what Zoro did at FMI.

Yes, Sanji has. Closing the Gates of Heaven, tricking Crocodile, and damaging Enel's ship were all done in direct connection to the crew. Running off to rescue Tashigi and forming the bond with Violet also affected the crew, though it wasn't his intention for it to. Same exact thing as Zoro charging off on his own to do something to affect the crew.

They aren't even remotely close to being same, Zoro was scolding Luffy for not taking things seriously. When, the rest are simply being emotional and were vocally expressing their frustration by yelling at Luffy.

Your father scolding you for not taking your studies seriously and you yelling at him out of frustration for not purchasing your favorite dress aren't same thing at all.

@Bolded: That's exactly what Zoro was doing. He was frustrated that Luffy was screwing around, so he angrily yelled at Luffy about it. Nami's speech LITERALLY SAID "Stop joking and screwing around because Robin has gone to die for us!" And Luffy got dead serious. Usopp LITERALLY said "If you're gonna beat him, then just get up and do it! Stop looking like you're gonna die!" All three of them yelled at Luffy to stop ****ing around and do what had to be done.

Nami and Usopp crying as opposed to Zoro just yelling doesn't change what it is: Yelling at Luffy that caused him to do or act in a certain way. You can make distinctions that one is encouragement, and one is threatening, but they were all the same thing: Passionate yelling that motivated Luffy to perform a certain action.

Lel, How came Jozu is stronger than Marco?

Jozu hit Aokiji, blood drawn from his mouth. Kizaru hit Aokiji, not a scratch.

Regardless, you don't take rare cases for granted while forming logical conclusions. Vice captain is in almost all cases the second strongest in the crew. Buggy isn't the strongest in his crew, that doesn't mean Luffy, Shanks, Whitebeard and Kaido aren't the strongest of their respective crews.

This is where you shot yourself in the foot. You acknowledge that correlation=/=causation by bringing up Buggy. He's not the strongest, but he takes up the role of the strongest. You acknowledge that there are exceptions to this "formula" where strongest is captain and second strongest is vice captain. Another exception to this formula is Jango being first mate despite not being the second strongest. There's no reason the Strawhats aren't also be an exception to this formula by having no first mate.

Luffy is already an exception to what makes a captain. He doesn't force his crew to plunder, he doesn't attack enemy ships for their goods, he doesn't claim territories with the exception of Fishman Island(which in itself was a peculiar case), and very unlike pirates, he attempts to save countries and help people. If Oda can have Luffy be a deviation from the formula of a pirate captain, why can't the crew also follow deviations and exceptions as a whole by not having a first mate?

What makes Zoro unique is that he was hand picked by Oda to suffer in Luffy's stead which is what a VC supposed to do. Even fodder number #2836 in WB's crew would be willing to die for him but the only one Oda'd choose to shoulder Whitebeard's burden will be Marco. It'd be same for Shanks crew or Even Roger's crew.

Hurt yourself again. You just said any random fodder is willing to sacrifice themselves for their captain on many ships. And yet the willingness to sacrifice himself makes Zoro first mate? Which one is it?

 

[loj]

Welp,what's the point he's seeing something nobody is seeing and consistently trying to put Sanji into it >_>

Zoro literally threaten Usopp and crew if they screw again he would rekt them.If that's not first mate worthy then lmao...no one threaten Luffy like Zoro did and Zoro is still somehow not first mate worthy

 

[A v i]

Zoro never said he wouldn't allow Usopp to join again. He said would reject Usopp, and clarified that this meant if Usopp was able to freely join, he would leave the crew. That's not commanding,

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Zoro simply said he'd leave the crew if Luffy humiliates his pride as the captain of the crew which Zoro is a part of, It's totally irrelevant to what he said afterwards about Usopp. He gave an ultimatum to the entire crew that he doesn't allow Usopp to join back if the first thing he'd do isn't a deep apology. It's him who decided that it'd be better to leave him alone if he doesn't apologize. And the entire crew including the captain approved it and followed it without raising their voice against it.

This hasn't happened since Enies Lobby. Thriller Bark was the first arc that disregarded this formula, meaning Oda hasn't used it in over 8 years.

It doesn't mean the dynamic isn't there. And Zoro did fight the second strongest individual opponent /the person right next to Luffy's opponent at TB, Fisherman Island,PH as well as Dressrosa.

Ryuma was the second strongest opponent involved in one on one fights at TB.

Hyozou was right next to Hody in strength and he even went through the same kind of monster transformation as Hody.

Mone is right next to Caesar"Luffy's opponent and also the main antagonist at PH".

Pica is the strongest of the family after Doffy at Dressrosa.

Yes, Sanji has. Closing the Gates of Heaven, tricking Crocodile, and damaging Enel's ship were all done in direct connection to the crew. Running off to rescue Tashigi and forming the bond with Violet also affected the crew, though it wasn't his intention for it to. Same exact thing as Zoro charging off on his own to do something to affect the crew.

What I said is he never took the command and done things as he wish like Zoro did at FMI. Zoro had 3 crew members with him and he acted as wish yet the rest of them followed his lead even though they don't like doing it. Sanji simply operated independently which is something all SH'd usually do.

@Bolded: That's exactly what Zoro was doing. He was frustrated that Luffy was screwing around, so he angrily yelled at Luffy about it. Nami's speech LITERALLY SAID "Stop joking and screwing around because Robin has gone to die for us!" And Luffy got dead serious. Usopp LITERALLY said "If you're gonna beat him, then just get up and do it! Stop looking like you're gonna die!" All three of them yelled at Luffy to stop ****ing around and do what had to be done. Nami and Usopp crying as opposed to Zoro just yelling doesn't change what it is: Yelling at Luffy that caused him to do or act in a certain way. You can make distinctions that one is encouragement, and one is threatening, but they were all the same thing: Passionate yelling that motivated Luffy to perform a certain action.

Sanji disagrees, he even clearly said Zoro is being strict/hard on him. I am not sure why Zoro'd be frustrated. There is absolutely no reason to feel as such, he was simply mad because he was being too careless. Where as Nami and others uttered those words because of an emotional breakdown. Once again Zoro was simply scolding Luffy akin to how a father or an older brother in general would scold you when Nami and others are more like a boy who's yelling at other out of frustration.

Jozu hit Aokiji, blood drawn from his mouth. Kizaru hit Aokiji, not a scratch.

Luffy sent Fujitora flying with G3 and even bruised him when even Sabo failed to it. Luffy must be stronger than Sabo.:yeah: Marco is hyped to be capable of taking down a Yonko material mate.

This is where you shot yourself in the foot. You acknowledge that correlation=/=causation by bringing up Buggy. He's not the strongest, but he takes up the role of the strongest. You acknowledge that there are exceptions to this "formula" where strongest is captain and second strongest is vice captain. Another exception to this formula is Jango being first mate despite not being the second strongest. There's no reason the Strawhats aren't also be an exception to this formula by having no first mate.

Luffy is already an exception to what makes a captain. He doesn't force his crew to plunder, he doesn't attack enemy ships for their goods, he doesn't claim territories with the exception of Fishman Island(which in itself was a peculiar case), and very unlike pirates, he attempts to save countries and help people. If Oda can have Luffy be a deviation from the formula of a pirate captain, why can't the crew also follow deviations and exceptions as a whole by not having a first mate?

It's true there are exceptions to this formula but it's totally usual and rare. We have crew in which captain/vice captain are the best fighters but we've yet to see a crew operating without a vice captain or a vice captain like figure. There is more evidence to say SH's have a VC than the vice versa. Given the parallels b/w Luffy crew and the late pirate kings crew, I find it extremely unlikely to be the case. Oda would've bought the concept of VC into the equation if doesn't have any intention of making Zoro look like one. I bet Roger''s crew is more or less same as Luffy's but they still had a vice captain.

Hurt yourself again. You just said any random fodder is willing to sacrifice themselves for their captain on many ships. And yet the willingness to sacrifice himself makes Zoro first mate? Which one is it?

Not really, I've never said Zoro is the VC simply because he's willing to die for Luffy. It's the fact that Oda preferred Zoro over anyone else in the crew. And it wasn't just his life that Zoro sacrificed for the sake of Luffy. There are things "His pride and dream" that Zoro considers to be more valuable than his own life. He refuses to abandon them no matter what the cost is, But he humiliated his pride and abandoned his dream for the sake of Luffy.

A couple of things I'd like to point out that'd make Zoro look more like a vice captain is the fact that Kuma didn't acknowledge Sanji and remained silent when Sanji tried to negotiate with him. [

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] [

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] It's clear as day that it's Zoro with whom Kuma wanted to settle things with in case of Luffy's absence. And it was Zoro who Chopper immediately approached when Luffy refused to listen to him when tried to advocate for Usopp. [

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