[Discussion] Obito better then Pain/Nagato?

[Silenqe]

So my fav character is Obito and my brother's fav is Pain and we have had an argument about who is better.
I tried to explain to my brother that Obito was Pain but on steroids.

One of the things my brother said was that Nagato had six paths of pain and all those other paths.
But Obito can also use six paths of pain.

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If all of Nagato's six paths of pain attack Obito then he can just use kamui or uchiha flame formation to protect himself, if they actually hit him he can just use his regeneration ability to regenerate.
If Nagato uses the animal path Obito can do the same or he can absorb the chakra from them by using chakra absorption techniques. And if Obito has the Gunbai he can use uchiha returns to reflect any attacks that are coming his way.

Let's say that Obito kills or gets all Nagato's six paths of pain to retreat. How is he gonna find Nagato? Well he can use sensing technique or telescope technique to find Nagato pretty easily (Obito already knows where Nagato is so that's kinda pointless and Obito can just go to Nagato's location and easily kill him)

Let's now say that Nagato is fighting 1v1 against Obito (Not six paths of pain but actually Nagato himself)
Nagato is probably gonna do the same things that he did against Naruto and Killer bee.

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If Nagato uses universal pull and let's say the asura path then Obito can use his tailed beast chakra arms (which he can do btw) and destroys the mechanical parts that Nagato got by using the asura path.

There are a lot of situations that could happen and I would love to hear some in the comments and also wanna hear some arguments to why pain is the strongest. There is a little more I can write but I am too tired.
Anyways thank you for reading the whole thing! Love you <3

- Silenqe

 

[DHOH]

If you are asking who's stronger than Rk Obito is.

 

[Lukecetion]

Nagato has far more training with the Rinnegan and far more power with it. Obito commented that he was unable to use more than one Rinnegan at once, lest he lose himself in the power they contained. Nagato was able to use two at the same time and by Obito's own words, the one who possess two of the Rinnegan will be far more powerful than someone with only one. Though for the sake of this thread I'll approach each "fight scenario" in the same way you did;

All Paths of Pain Attack
The Pains controlled by Obito where powerful only when they released their Tailed Beast Forms and even then they seem to have been far less powerful than they should've been. He also demonstrated a lack of control over their released forms for long periods of time. Which is likely because of the immense chakra it took for him to control them. Nagato would also have inside knowledge of the Rods that are required to control them, meaning he would target them. Hence Obito would likely lose his paths before Pain would.

Beyond that, then there is nothing the Jin Paths of Obito can do against most of Pain's Path thanks to Preta Path and Tendo Path. That leaves Obito himself who was incapable of using the wast majority of the Rinnegan's abilities, only using the Outer Path to control the Gedo, the Paths and use Rinne No Rebirth. Uchiha Flame Formation would just be absorbed by Preta Path and we also don't know how Kamui would work against Preta, but for the sake of this argument let us say the chakra that is being used to bend Time/Space can't be absorbed.

By that time it would be a fight of fatigue. Who can lost the longest, Obito with his limited Kamui use or Pain with his near endless control over the Paths? Obito would never have a change to surprise the Paths to capture any of them in an open battle because of their shared vision. Obito also has no "regeneration ability" to speak off so if he is hit face on by an attack then he is a goner. Only superficial damage can be healed quickly if he is hit in the location of his Zetsu replacement genes.

Animal Path summons physical being so you can't absorb them using techniques like Preta Path or Wood Style. Beyond that Obito never had the ability to absorb chakra himself and he was never shown to be able to use Preta Path. The only people capable of utilizing a Rinnegan to their full potential are those who awakened it, the rest have to practice for it. Hence he wouldn't know how, nor be good at using it. Which is likely we he relied on Kamui and not Preta in the war. We also don't know if Obito can utilize Uchiha Return or not, and even if he could the thing could just be smashed by Tendo or any number of the Paths. Not to mention that it would only really be able to block one attack at once, not six.

The Paths are Destroyed or Retreat
This scenario is highly unlikely for the reasons stated above, but okay. If this happens then Nagato would also retreat, the reason he didn't do it against Naruto was two fold. He didn't have time as Naruto located his so quickly and he was worn out from the fight. If this scenario occurred with Obito then he wouldn't be able to locate Nagato easily. Obito has no known sensing ability prior to becoming the Juubi-Jin and he is entirely unable to fully sense the Bijuu chakra against his fight with Naruto. He also has no idea on how to sense Natural Energies, which is what Naruto used to locate him. Obito only ever used the Telescope Technique in the non-canon story prologue for "Road to Ninja" and the tool he used in that filler was destroyed. Hence he can no longer use this either.

Nagato also moves around as he has to maintain a somewhat vicinity to the Paths to control them, so no, Obito does not know where Nagato is and has no way of finding him other than to run around using educated guesses based on what would be the best hiding spot.

Obito Fights Nagato Himself
This fight would be fairly unfair as Nagato himself isn't capable of moving around without assistance. Because of that simple fact Obito would win in this fight as Kamui would best Nagato with very few ways for him to counter it other than spamming Tendo path until he ran out of chakra. Though in a scenario where he can move he would likely win. If the fight is as you described then Obito would die the instant he was grabbed by Nagato and affected by the Human Path to rip out his soul. We know that if something interference with Obito's "soul" then he cannot "slip through" stuff anymore, as seen when he absorbed the Juubi.

Obito also cannot use "Bijuu Chakra Arms" unless he is also the Juubi-Jin, meaning prior to this he can't use those and he cannot use them after either. Even if he could use them then they would serve no purpose against Nagato because of Preta Path.

 

[Im_not_Osama_bin_laden]

Deidara best cause he go boom

 

[Silenqe]

Nagato has far more training with the Rinnegan and far more power with it. Obito commented that he was unable to use more than one Rinnegan at once, lest he lose himself in the power they contained. Nagato was able to use two at the same time and by Obito's own words, the one who possess two of the Rinnegan will be far more powerful than someone with only one. Though for the sake of this thread I'll approach each "fight scenario" in the same way you did;

All Paths of Pain Attack
The Pains controlled by Obito where powerful only when they released their Tailed Beast Forms and even then they seem to have been far less powerful than they should've been. He also demonstrated a lack of control over their released forms for long periods of time. Which is likely because of the immense chakra it took for him to control them. Nagato would also have inside knowledge of the Rods that are required to control them, meaning he would target them. Hence Obito would likely lose his paths before Pain would.

Beyond that, then there is nothing the Jin Paths of Obito can do against most of Pain's Path thanks to Preta Path and Tendo Path. That leaves Obito himself who was incapable of using the wast majority of the Rinnegan's abilities, only using the Outer Path to control the Gedo, the Paths and use Rinne No Rebirth. Uchiha Flame Formation would just be absorbed by Preta Path and we also don't know how Kamui would work against Preta, but for the sake of this argument let us say the chakra that is being used to bend Time/Space can't be absorbed.

By that time it would be a fight of fatigue. Who can lost the longest, Obito with his limited Kamui use or Pain with his near endless control over the Paths? Obito would never have a change to surprise the Paths to capture any of them in an open battle because of their shared vision. Obito also has no "regeneration ability" to speak off so if he is hit face on by an attack then he is a goner. Only superficial damage can be healed quickly if he is hit in the location of his Zetsu replacement genes.

Animal Path summons physical being so you can't absorb them using techniques like Preta Path or Wood Style. Beyond that Obito never had the ability to absorb chakra himself and he was never shown to be able to use Preta Path. The only people capable of utilizing a Rinnegan to their full potential are those who awakened it, the rest have to practice for it. Hence he wouldn't know how, nor be good at using it. Which is likely we he relied on Kamui and not Preta in the war. We also don't know if Obito can utilize Uchiha Return or not, and even if he could the thing could just be smashed by Tendo or any number of the Paths. Not to mention that it would only really be able to block one attack at once, not six.

The Paths are Destroyed or Retreat
This scenario is highly unlikely for the reasons stated above, but okay. If this happens then Nagato would also retreat, the reason he didn't do it against Naruto was two fold. He didn't have time as Naruto located his so quickly and he was worn out from the fight. If this scenario occurred with Obito then he wouldn't be able to locate Nagato easily. Obito has no known sensing ability prior to becoming the Juubi-Jin and he is entirely unable to fully sense the Bijuu chakra against his fight with Naruto. He also has no idea on how to sense Natural Energies, which is what Naruto used to locate him. Obito only ever used the Telescope Technique in the non-canon story prologue for "Road to Ninja" and the tool he used in that filler was destroyed. Hence he can no longer use this either.

Nagato also moves around as he has to maintain a somewhat vicinity to the Paths to control them, so no, Obito does not know where Nagato is and has no way of finding him other than to run around using educated guesses based on what would be the best hiding spot.

Obito Fights Nagato Himself
This fight would be fairly unfair as Nagato himself isn't capable of moving around without assistance. Because of that simple fact Obito would win in this fight as Kamui would best Nagato with very few ways for him to counter it other than spamming Tendo path until he ran out of chakra. Though in a scenario where he can move he would likely win. If the fight is as you described then Obito would die the instant he was grabbed by Nagato and affected by the Human Path to rip out his soul. We know that if something interference with Obito's "soul" then he cannot "slip through" stuff anymore, as seen when he absorbed the Juubi.

Obito also cannot use "Bijuu Chakra Arms" unless he is also the Juubi-Jin, meaning prior to this he can't use those and he cannot use them after either. Even if he could use them then they would serve no purpose against Nagato because of Preta Path.

Thank you for your reply <3 I have looked more into it and wanted to share some more things Obito can do against them. I just wanted to do this for fun, but please look at this and tell me your response.


Preta path - Obito could do wood release great spear tree, wood release underground roots technique, wood release cutting technique. Another ability is fire release phoenix sage fire technique (with shurikens hiding inside the flames). (There's more but I'm tired).


Animal path - Obito can pull out the chakra receivers and use wood release to pull the big chakra receivers out, then use Kamui to not get hit by any of the pains or use Zetsu to distract the pains. Obito can also use the demonic statue chains to temporarily stop the summons (I am not 100% he can do this tho). Or use Kamui to take the animal path into the other dimension and when he summons, Obito can use Kamui to phase into the animals and go right after the pain.


Asura path - wood release techniques under him to ping him down, Zetsu to distract again coming under him and Zetsu maybe even damage him a little or Obito can use explosive landmines to blow him and the other pains up. (Although Naraka path can repair them all)


Deva path - fire release phoenix sage fire technique (with shurikens hiding inside the flames). Earth release hiding like a mole technique and go under pain and using the demonic statue chains to ping down pain and pain is not able to use his push and pull thing.


Human path - The human path is (in my opinion) the weakest path of them all. Only because of the fact that the user needs to have their hand right over the target’s head to take there soul. So Obito could just avoid it and in a 1v1 situation, it will be fairly easy to kill (see down below how that could happen). But if the other pains were there too he would be protected and if the other pains were about to get killed he would just go in front of them and sacrifice himself. (I believe he did against Naruto)


Naraka path - The Naraka path’s first ability is easy to avoid because of the fact that Obito has Kamui. The second ability is really hard to do anything about, but Obito needs to get close to the Naraka path and use Kamui to take him into the other dimension and by doing so the other pains cant be fully repaired after taking a lot of damage. After that Obito just has to fight the Naraka path without being touched once, like I said pretty easy for Obito.


Info:

Any damage that Obito takes by a jutsu that involves a hand seal will be regenerated because of hashirama’s DNA. I don't know if summoning jutsu counts but just for the sake of it I won't count it


Obito could use Kamui on every pain and finish them off in that dimension (without the other pains interference) He does need to get close to them first which might be a problem but could use some Jutsus listed above to achieve this. Fx Kamui to not get attacked by the pains and then go over to whichever pain he wants to get rid of first and use Kamui on him (I would probably say the Naraka path because of the fact that it can heal the other pains).

Again I am super tired and my head isn't super clear and might have missed a few things here and there Fx. With the preta path section. Btw sorry for the bad post that started this thread, my brain was only working 0,01 capacity and I literally just looked at the wiki and kinda copy and pasted it :3. I also tried to stay away from jutsus in the original thread.

- Silenqe

 

[Lukecetion]

Preta path - Obito could do wood release great spear tree, wood release underground roots technique, wood release cutting technique and fire release phoenix sage fire technique ( with shurikens hiding inside the flames).

Obito's use of Mokuton was severely limited on its own, as seen as he barely uses it without a proxy to boost his power. Wood Release: Cutting Technique is used in two instances by Obito that I can remember, the first being when he was inside GuruGuru which greatly boosted his powers. The second was when he was connected to the Juubi and channeled the attack through it, at which point he was also connected to Madara. He never uses this technique outside of these scenarios, meaning that even if he could do that it would likely be severely weaker.

The same can be said about Wood Release: Great Spear Tree, which was also only being use alongside GuruGuru. I also don't recall when he used Wood Release: Underground Roots Technique but I assume it was when he used Mokuton to grab unto Naruto during the war or when he fought with GuruGuru in his childhood. GuruGuru really isn't a valid case as he was severely helped in that scenario and doesn't possess such power himself. The way he used Wood Style against Naruto wouldn't even be useful against Pain as he would have to get both into melee range and use a slow moving technique against a single path, locking both of them down.

Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique was only ever used by Obito in filler content and while I have no doubt in my heart that he can use it as he is an Uchiha, then it would just be absorbed by Preta Path regardless.

Animal path - Obito will probably have to pull out the chakra receivers and use wood release to pull the big chakra receivers out, then use Kamui to not get hit by any of the pains or use Zetsu to distract the pains. Obito can also use the demonic statue chains to temporarily stop the summons (I am not 100% he can do this tho). Or use Kamui to take the animal path into the other dimension and when he summons, Obito can use Kamui to phase into the animals and go right after the pain.

You are overestimating the capabilities of Kamui too much. Obito cannot cast Ninjutsu, Genjutsu or Taijutsu while casting Kamui if the technique is physical or requires hand seals. He was only ever shown to be able to cast Visual Based Techniques like Izanagi. The only one who could cast both Kamui and attack at the same time was Kakashi when he possessed both the Mangekyou Sharingan and Obito's Rikudou Chakra, which isn't the Obito who we are debating in this conversation and we don't know the capabilities of having both of them.

That means even if he get close to a Pain he needs to turn off his Kamui to attack, which is why he was unable to beat Kakashi, Gai, Killer Bee and Naruto as they exploited this opening to attack him. With the knowledge that Konan possessed a great understanding of Kamui then I'd say its rather safe to assume that Nagato also had this knowledge from working with Obito for years. Meaning he would know how to counter Kamui and likely know about the time limit it has. Obito's Paths had a single Chakra Reciever in order to control them, the Pain's had several.

Meaning he couldn't just "pull" them out in the heat of a battle where as Pain could stop Obito's Paths by pulling them out as Naruto and Killer Bee did. As outlined above, Mokuton wouldn't do much for Obito other than leaving him open for an attack. Obito would also not be able to use the Gedo Statue in any way or shape as both Nagato and Obito can control it, hence the other would just cancel it out. The only other application of using this as far as we know is to connect it to a black rod that Obito has created himself, as it needs to be tied to his chakra.

Also if Obito would have to resort to using Zetsu then he already admits defeat as the fight would no longer be 1v1, but 2v1.

Asura path - wood release techniques under him, Zetsu to distract again coming under him and maybe even damage him a little or explosive landmines to blow him and the other paths up.

Obito's Mokuton wouldn't do much as stated above, Zetsu would be cheating and Landmines would just be deflected by Tendo Path or avoided as Pain would be able to see their location with Rinnegan, if not just move away from the field. The reason Sasuke didn't do that with Deidara was that Deidara was flying above it, something Obito cannot do. If Sasuke wanted to retread then Deidara would need to follow him if he wanted to fight him.

Deva path - fire release phoenix sage fire technique (with shurikens hiding inside the flames). Earth release hiding like a mole technique and go under pain and using the demonic statue chains to make him not move.

Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique was again only ever used in the anime and not in the manga, but even then a single Shinra Tensei would stop the Fire Chakra and the Shuriken in their tracks. Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique wouldn't serve a purpose against Pain as he could detect your chakra with Rinnegan and act accordingly. Beyond that Obito can't combine it with Kamui, hence the instant he gets close to a Pain they would move out of the way unless it was Tendo, at which point a Shinra Tensei would just be used.

Human path - The human path is (in my opinion) the weakest path of them all. Only because of the fact that the user needs to have their hand right over the target’s head to take there soul. So Obito could just avoid it and in a 1v1 situation, it will be fairly easy to kill (see down below how that could happen). But if the other pains were there too he would be protected and if the other pains were about to get killed he would just go in front of them and sacrifice himself.

People tend to underestimate the Human Path greatly. If he gets a hold of you, you are dead. Human Path's fighting style is a lot like Obito's use of Kamui. Meaning in a fight between these two it would be about who can touch the other first and even if Obito was successfully then he would put himself at immense risk. We know that Obito takes a few seconds to "absorb" and transport you with Kamui at which point Human Path can grab his soul. At this point Obito has two options;

- Either he transports Human Path who is holding unto his own soul, splitting his soul away from his body and killing himself.
- That doesn't work and because the soul is out of his body he can no longer use Kamui to go between dimensions.

The final one is the more likely judging by his limitations with Kamui as seen when he absorbed the Juubi.

Naraka path - The Naraka path’s first ability is easy to avoid because of the fact that Obito has Kamui. The second ability is really hard to do anything about, but Obito needs to get close to the Naraka path and use Kamui to take him into the other dimension and by doing so the other pains cant be fully repaired after taking a lot of damage. After that Obito just has to fight the Naraka path without being touched once, like i said pretty easy for Obito.

I'll address a point of yours you seem very keen to bring out and that is "Obito could just Kamui a Path to another dimension" which is unlikely. Pain had shared vision and made it a habit to keep a path in his eyesight at all times. The only times he was caught off guard was when he was ambushed or when he put his guard down. The instant Obito went out of Kamui to grab a Pain he would know it and would just respond with Tendo's Universal Pull or move the Pain out of the way and attack with the other Pains.

Any damage that Obito takes by a jutsu that involves a hand seal will be regenerated because of hashirama’s DNA. I don't know if summoning jutsu counts but just for the sake of it I won't count it

Obito can only regenerate the tissue that was replaced with Zetsu DNA quickly, his normal body doesn't heal quickly as seen with his scars and long healing time in Madara's cave.

Obito could use Kamui on every pain and finish them off in that dimension (without the other pains interference) He does need to get close to them first which might be a problem but could use some Jutsus listed above to achieve this. Fx Kamui to not get attacked by the pains and then go over to whichever pain he wants to get rid of first (I would probably say the Naraka path because of the fact that it can heal the other pains).

As mentioned earlier, the instance Obito deactivates Kamui he can be grabbed by Tendo's Universal Pull or ganged by the other Pains. Even Naruto was unable to get around this and was only given a shot because he didn't have to worry about Tendo, ambushed one of them and was lucky enough for Pain not to notice the Senjutsu being absorbed by Preta quick enough. The instant Tendo came online again, Naruto lost the fight.

 

[Silenqe]

Obito's use of Mokuton was severely limited on its own, as seen as he barely uses it without a proxy to boost his power. Wood Release: Cutting Technique is used in two instances by Obito that I can remember, the first being when he was inside GuruGuru which greatly boosted his powers. The second was when he was connected to the Juubi and channeled the attack through it, at which point he was also connected to Madara. He never uses this technique outside of these scenarios, meaning that even if he could do that it would likely be severely weaker.

The same can be said about Wood Release: Great Spear Tree, which was also only being use alongside GuruGuru. I also don't recall when he used Wood Release: Underground Roots Technique but I assume it was when he used Mokuton to grab unto Naruto during the war or when he fought with GuruGuru in his childhood. GuruGuru really isn't a valid case as he was severely helped in that scenario and doesn't possess such power himself. The way he used Wood Style against Naruto wouldn't even be useful against Pain as he would have to get both into melee range and use a slow moving technique against a single path, locking both of them down.

Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique was only ever used by Obito in filler content and while I have no doubt in my heart that he can use it as he is an Uchiha, then it would just be absorbed by Preta Path regardless.



You are overestimating the capabilities of Kamui too much. Obito cannot cast Ninjutsu, Genjutsu or Taijutsu while casting Kamui if the technique is physical or requires hand seals. He was only ever shown to be able to cast Visual Based Techniques like Izanagi. The only one who could cast both Kamui and attack at the same time was Kakashi when he possessed both the Mangekyou Sharingan and Obito's Rikudou Chakra, which isn't the Obito who we are debating in this conversation and we don't know the capabilities of having both of them.

That means even if he get close to a Pain he needs to turn off his Kamui to attack, which is why he was unable to beat Kakashi, Gai, Killer Bee and Naruto as they exploited this opening to attack him. With the knowledge that Konan possessed a great understanding of Kamui then I'd say its rather safe to assume that Nagato also had this knowledge from working with Obito for years. Meaning he would know how to counter Kamui and likely know about the time limit it has. Obito's Paths had a single Chakra Reciever in order to control them, the Pain's had several.

Meaning he couldn't just "pull" them out in the heat of a battle where as Pain could stop Obito's Paths by pulling them out as Naruto and Killer Bee did. As outlined above, Mokuton wouldn't do much for Obito other than leaving him open for an attack. Obito would also not be able to use the Gedo Statue in any way or shape as both Nagato and Obito can control it, hence the other would just cancel it out. The only other application of using this as far as we know is to connect it to a black rod that Obito has created himself, as it needs to be tied to his chakra.

Also if Obito would have to resort to using Zetsu then he already admits defeat as the fight would no longer be 1v1, but 2v1.



Obito's Mokuton wouldn't do much as stated above, Zetsu would be cheating and Landmines would just be deflected by Tendo Path or avoided as Pain would be able to see their location with Rinnegan, if not just move away from the field. The reason Sasuke didn't do that with Deidara was that Deidara was flying above it, something Obito cannot do. If Sasuke wanted to retread then Deidara would need to follow him if he wanted to fight him.



Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique was again only ever used in the anime and not in the manga, but even then a single Shinra Tensei would stop the Fire Chakra and the Shuriken in their tracks. Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique wouldn't serve a purpose against Pain as he could detect your chakra with Rinnegan and act accordingly. Beyond that Obito can't combine it with Kamui, hence the instant he gets close to a Pain they would move out of the way unless it was Tendo, at which point a Shinra Tensei would just be used.



People tend to underestimate the Human Path greatly. If he gets a hold of you, you are dead. Human Path's fighting style is a lot like Obito's use of Kamui. Meaning in a fight between these two it would be about who can touch the other first and even if Obito was successfully then he would put himself at immense risk. We know that Obito takes a few seconds to "absorb" and transport you with Kamui at which point Human Path can grab his soul. At this point Obito has two options;

- Either he transports Human Path who is holding unto his own soul, splitting his soul away from his body and killing himself.
- That doesn't work and because the soul is out of his body he can no longer use Kamui to go between dimensions.

The final one is the more likely judging by his limitations with Kamui as seen when he absorbed the Juubi.



I'll address a point of yours you seem very keen to bring out and that is "Obito could just Kamui a Path to another dimension" which is unlikely. Pain had shared vision and made it a habit to keep a path in his eyesight at all times. The only times he was caught off guard was when he was ambushed or when he put his guard down. The instant Obito went out of Kamui to grab a Pain he would know it and would just respond with Tendo's Universal Pull or move the Pain out of the way and attack with the other Pains.



Obito can only regenerate the tissue that was replaced with Zetsu DNA quickly, his normal body doesn't heal quickly as seen with his scars and long healing time in Madara's cave.



As mentioned earlier, the instance Obito deactivates Kamui he can be grabbed by Tendo's Universal Pull or ganged by the other Pains. Even Naruto was unable to get around this and was only given a shot because he didn't have to worry about Tendo, ambushed one of them and was lucky enough for Pain not to notice the Senjutsu being absorbed by Preta quick enough. The instant Tendo came online again, Naruto lost the fight.

Thank you for your reply, I really don't have anything else to add. So I guess you won this argument.
It was very fun discussing a lot of possibilities and jutsus with you. You have a lot of knowledge about the anime, I would say more than most people, you're very good at explaining different possibilities and there was no way I would have won this argument, but it was still fun.

I would gladly take this defeat.
Have a nice day <3

- Silenqe

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Pain and Obito are both great characters but it’s clear that Obito is the stronger between the two because we he is the leader of the organization that Pain is in.

Now powerwise Nagato’s Pain powers are unique and OP, but so is Obito’s in the aspect of his Kamui that virtually makes him invincible if Kakashi is not around.

The feats can’t be compared. Nagato mastered the elements at a young age but his kill feats to fame was only Hanzo before being renowned as a God.
Obito on the other hand sprouted young. As soon as that tissue was implanted and he trained under Madara, his feats were unparallel to most top tier.
At the age of 13 he killed multiple anbu ops with a A rank skilled wood style and the use of his mangekyo.
14 years old he summons a kyubi, fights his Hokage teacher (split decision lost) destroying the village.
20 years old he captures later kill a Mizukage who was a perfect jinchuuriki while manipulating an organization that Pain falls under before coming out at the age of 30-31 coming out as the guise as Tobi.

Obito is more experience stronger, has more array of jutsus than Pain does, and also possesses genetic six path power as well.
He’s clearly stronger and exciting to watch but Pain is over all a much appealing character.

 

[Ansatsuken]

If Obito has DMS and can use PS gg Pain/Nagato.

 

[Lukecetion]

Pain and Obito are both great characters but it’s clear that Obito is the stronger between the two because we he is the leader of the organization that Pain is in.

This argument has always been dull. Nagato didn't follow Obito because of his power, but because of his plan. Konan was convinced she could beat Obito in a fight and she almost managed to do so. Meaning that at least Konan didn't hold much respect towards Obito as a person or his power, but rather his goals and plans because of Nagato. This is also one reason why Obito didn't force Nagato into the decision of joining the Akatsuki, but rather waited. He didn't want to risk a fight and wanted him to feel the "pain of the world" for himself.

Take Itachi for example. Obito postponed his plans and was outright scared of the man to such a degree that he upheld his end of the deal until Itachi's dying breath, even if he got nothing out of it personally. He allowed Itachi to delay the Akatsuki plans for years and even risked himself for no real reason other than to keep Itachi quiet. That means there are things Obito feared and there are things he believe he will lose against. Hence he isn't specifically stronger than every single member just because he he is the leader.

A leader doesn't have to be strongest, just the person people look to for leadership.

 

[Animegoin]

Take Itachi for example. Obito postponed his plans and was outright scared of the man to such a degree that he upheld his end of the deal until Itachi's dying breath, even if he got nothing out of it personally. He allowed Itachi to delay the Akatsuki plans for years and even risked himself for no real reason other than to keep Itachi quiet. That means there are things Obito feared and there are things he believe he will lose against. Hence he isn't specifically stronger than every single member just because he he is the leader.

A leader doesn't have to be strongest, just the person people look to for leadership.

Obito wasn’t scared of Itachi at all, in-fact Obito was the one that taught Itachi Izanagi and Izanami, and the secrets of the Mangekyou sharingan. He strategically used Itachi just as he used Naruto and Sasuke. It’s not like Itachi did absolutely nothing to the benefit of the Akatsuki, he literally captured bijuu and delayed Team Kakashi from retrieving Gaara pre-bijuu extraction. Also Obito was always multiple steps ahead of Itachi, even Edo Itachi was surprised when he found out that Tobi knew all about his schemes the entire time.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

This argument has always been dull. Nagato didn't follow Obito because of his power, but because of his plan. Konan was convinced she could beat Obito in a fight and she almost managed to do so. Meaning that at least Konan didn't hold much respect towards Obito as a person or his power, but rather his goals and plans because of Nagato. This is also one reason why Obito didn't force Nagato into the decision of joining the Akatsuki, but rather waited. He didn't want to risk a fight and wanted him to feel the "pain of the world" for himself.

Uhm wrong. Nagato followed him because of his powers and ideology. You cannot control an S rank organization without power and everyone knew that. Konan did not think she can beat Obito at all, that’s why she used intel and prep time to figure out a weakness one jutsu in Obito’s arsenal. An S rank Jutsu that requires it to be a trap and time to activate being the second or third biggest jutsu in the series.
She needed a whole ocean of explosive power just to kill Obito and that didn’t work when he revealed a second power in his arsenal.
There’s a reason why Nagato wasn’t dumb enough to fight Obito and Konan was just delaying the inevitable.

Take Itachi for example. Obito postponed his plans and was outright scared of the man to such a degree that he upheld his end of the deal until Itachi's dying breath, even if he got nothing out of it personally. He allowed Itachi to delay the Akatsuki plans for years and even risked himself for no real reason other than to keep Itachi quiet. That means there are things Obito feared and there are things he believe he will lose against. Hence he isn't specifically stronger than every single member just because he he is the leader.

This is completely wrong. Obito wasn’t scared of Itachi at all, and it was in Itachi’s novel that he as a kid was scared of Obito after he killed one of his friends from school causing him to awaken his tomoe sharingan.
Itachi came to Obito with a deal that if he didn’t follow his deal on what he wanted to do for Sasuke including the leaf, then he will leak out all the information about Akatsuki to the hidden leaf village including the one leading the organization.
That’s why he couldn’t touch the leaf village. And once itachi died, that’s when pain revealed himself to the open and attacked the hidden leaf under Obito’s commands.

A leader doesn't have to be strongest, just the person people look to for leadership.

I don’t know where you got this logic from but I know it has nothing to do with Naruto. People who are the leader are suppose to be the strongest especially when the organization is based off of strong ex missing ninjas.

 

[Lukecetion]

Nagato followed him because of his powers and ideology.

Then why didn't Obito force Nagato and why did Nagato betray him when he was talked out of it by Naruto? His reasoning for following Obito wasn't out of fear of Obito's power, it was his ideals to create a world of peace. Obito gave him an option and he liked it, then Naruto gave him another option and liked that more. The power was never a concern.

Konan did not think she can beat Obito at all, that’s why she used intel and prep time to figure out a weakness one jutsu in Obito’s arsenal.

By this logic then Madara never thought he could create peace, nor did Obito as they used prep time to figure out how to obtain more power to force people. By the same logic, Shikamaru has never believed he can beat anyone because he needs prep time. She truly believed she could beat him if she had the home advantage, she was wrong because she didn't know about Izanagi.

That’s why he couldn’t touch the leaf village. And once itachi died, that’s when pain revealed himself to the open and attacked the hidden leaf under Obito’s commands.

This is so extraordinarily bad logic that I am shocked. So you are saying that the reason Obito upheld his end of the deal which he gained nothing from was to avoid a leak in information and the instant when Itachi couldn't tell the Leaf about the Akatsuki he told them himself? What. He launched an open attack on the world and showed himself to them right after Itachi's death, the Kage already knew who he was and what the Akatsuki wanted. Not to mention that he outright admits that Itachi could kill him if he had all the intel on his Kamui.

Obito upheld a deal he got nothing from and it cost him a great deal of time. Itachi being alive didn't hinder his plans in any other way than Itachi simply being an obstacle for Obito that he would have problems dealing with, hence he waited. Like he did with Nagato before him, Obito waited as he didn't want to risk a outright fight if there was a chance he could lose.

People who are the leader are suppose to be the strongest especially when the organization is based off of strong ex missing ninjas.

The mind explaining why Obito used Pain as the face of the Organization? Why did he hide himself if he was so powerful that even Kage couldn't challenge him in a one on one? Why did he hide himself between not one, but three identities? Because it was never about his power, but his plan. The man with the plan is the one who rules, not the man with the brawn. Its the very logic behind "The pen is mightier than the sword".

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Then why didn't Obito force Nagato and why did Nagato betray him when he was talked out of it by Naruto? His reasoning for following Obito wasn't out of fear of Obito's power, it was his ideals to create a world of peace. Obito gave him an option and he liked it, then Naruto gave him another option and liked that more. The power was never a concern.

Forced Nagato to do what? He did everything he told him to. The only reason why Nagato betrayed Obito was because he believed in Naruto’s ideology and he was defeated. So he revived everyone he killed in the village but he didn’t spill any secrets about Akatsuki.

By this logic then Madara never thought he could create peace, nor did Obito as they used prep time to figure out how to obtain more power to force people. By the same logic, Shikamaru has never believed he can beat anyone because he needs prep time. She truly believed she could beat him if she had the home advantage, she was wrong because she didn't know about Izanagi.

This doesn’t make sense whatsoever. Konan did not think she can truly beat Obito and your examples don’t make any sense. Obito and Madara needed prep time to reach their goals because they knew that they didn’t have the power to carry it out without the jubi. Even Obito said so himself in the Gokage summit. Shikamaru uses prep time against one opponent and that was Hidan because he knew that he didn’t have the man power to beat him. That’s why he lured him out in the woods were all his traps were specifically located and had Kakashi collect a blood sample to fool Hidan. Besides that Hidan strategize on the fly mid way through battle which is completely different than prep time. Prep time literally means you set traps/plans days or even years before the initial fight. That’s exactly what konan did to Obito.

This is so extraordinarily bad logic that I am shocked. So you are saying that the reason Obito upheld his end of the deal which he gained nothing from was to avoid a leak in information and the instant when Itachi couldn't tell the Leaf about the Akatsuki he told them himself? What. He launched an open attack on the world and showed himself to them right after Itachi's death, the Kage already knew who he was and what the Akatsuki wanted. Not to mention that he outright admits that Itachi could kill him if he had all the intel on his Kamui.

No, this is extraordinarily bad reading comprehension skills on your part. Itachi was a spy in akatsuki and the third Hokage revealed this to Sasuke at the Uchiha shrine. He held a deal with him to not reveal akatsuki and Tobi (Madara) because he did not collect any of the bijus yet. However since Pain and Sasuke caused a huge name for themselves (

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) and he already had 1-7 of the bijus, he came out in the open about it. Go read the Gokage summit he literally says all of it.



On top of that Obito never said that Itachi can kill him at all, even with intel on his Kamui. Obito has way too many arsenals in his disposal for Itachi to figure out. This is absolute headcanon.

Obito upheld a deal he got nothing from and it cost him a great deal of time. Itachi being alive didn't hinder his plans in any other way than Itachi simply being an obstacle for Obito that he would have problems dealing with, hence he waited. Like he did with Nagato before him, Obito waited as he didn't want to risk a outright fight if there was a chance he could lose.

Wrong. His deal was that Akatsuki’s secrets remained sealed out of the whole great 5 nations to know. If they knew, then Obito wouldn’t have collected the bijus already.
Obito isn’t losing to Itachi.

The mind explaining why Obito used Pain as the face of the Organization? Why did he hide himself if he was so powerful that even Kage couldn't challenge him in a one on one? Why did he hide himself between not one, but three identities? Because it was never about his power, but his plan. The man with the plan is the one who rules, not the man with the brawn. Its the very logic behind "The pen is mightier than the sword".

Wrong, you’re using your own sense and ideal instead of reading the manga yourself. Once information about Obito who was under the guise as Madara was to ever leak out, the whole nation will attack. That’s why Obito hid himself from everybody. He said so himself that he didn’t have power to fight the whole nation but he has the power of the tailed beast he’s collected so far
(

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)
So if any information ever came out early about him prior to capturing a tailed beast, Akatsuki would’ve been taken out by the 5 great nations.

 

[Lukecetion]

Forced Nagato to do what? He did everything he told him to. The only reason why Nagato betrayed Obito was because he believed in Naruto’s ideology and he was defeated. So he revived everyone he killed in the village but he didn’t spill any secrets about Akatsuki.

There was nothing to spill, he had already told Naruto about the end goals of the Akatsuki based on what he personally knew. He believed they were building a weapon to force the world into submission. That was partly true. There was no secrets to be told Naruto anymore as I would highly doubt that Obito would share detailed information with Nagato and Konan if he even lied about their true goal.

Shikamaru uses prep time against one opponent and that was Hidan because he knew that he didn’t have the man power to beat him.

And this is where my example comes into play. This is exactly what Konan did. She even admits it. After spending years by Obito's side she was able to figure out how Kamui worked and because of that she figured she could never beat him in a straight fight and thus had to prepare for it. She went into the fight with him fully expecting to kill him even if she had to give her life in doing so. Her dialogue to Obito gives this away, she truly believed she could kill him and stop him.

This is extraordinarily bad reading comprehension skills

Now this is funny. What Obito is talking about here isn't the need to keep secret anymore, its the fact that because of Pain and Taka attacking two villages at the same, the Gokage can no longer pretend that the Akatsuki isn't a threat to all of them. They already knew about the organization for years as stated by the Gokage in the meeting. They only underestimated their powers and because of Pain and Taka they now don't, they have started to move, they are going to plot to stop the Akatsuki now. The Gokage knew no more of the Akatsuki before Obito talked to them than they already had known for years.

Obito spilled the beans because he was trying to threaten them into giving up. Something they didn't do. It was a power play on his side that failed. The reason he risked this was that no matter what he did he knew the Gokage would attack so it didn't matter if they knew about his plans or not, but telling them might just be enough to threaten them to do a mistake. That was Obito's character. A man who lacked the power to change the world, so he tried to change the people within it to benefit him as he did with Nagato, Sasuke, Kisame and tried to do with Naruto.

On top of that Obito never said that Itachi can kill him at all, even with intel on his Kamui. Obito has way too many arsenals in his disposal for Itachi to figure out. This is absolute headcanon.

When Obito approaches Sasuke for the first time, Itachi's failsafe kicks in, hitting Obito with Amaterasu. At this point Obito thinks to himself;

Well thankfully Itachi didn't know everything about me... Or else I would be dead.

This makes it painfully obvious that Obito did fear Itachi to a degree, enough to try and keep as many secrets from him as possible as to avoid being killed by Itachi. This means that because of Itachi's power, his intellect and abilities in combat, Obito feared him greatly.

His deal was that Akatsuki’s secrets remained sealed out of the whole great 5 nations to know.

This doesn't hold water. We don't know what Itachi knew or didn't know. The villages figured out that the Akatsuki wanted to collect the Bijuu regardless. Either Itachi leaked the information and Obito was a idiot or Obito was just not careful with how he went about his plans, making it appear obvious. Heck, Jiraya knew about this in Part 1. Orochimaru could also leak the information, yet Obito didn't do anything to avoid that. He simply didn't care as it wasn't important to his plans if they knew or not. Not even Nagato knew the true goal of the organization, making it unlikely that Obito shared such information to Itachi and I doubt he had it written down on a note somewhere.

Wrong, you’re using your own sense and ideal instead of reading the manga yourself.

This is turning into a bash fiesta for you it seems. As stated above, the reason no one cared about the Akatsuki wasn't because of who Obito was or who they believed him to be. In-fact no one knew who the leader was and most of the Gokage had no idea that the real leader was said to be Madara Uchiha until Danzo spilled the beans in the Kage Summit. Obito hiding his identity served little to no purpose outside of making Pain the figure head that the rest of the Akatsuki followed. Obito never forced anyone into the Akatsuki himself, he talked them into it as seen with Kisame and Itachi.

Pain acted as the glue that held them together, the power they needed to believe in order to think they stood a chance in this goal. Furthermore Pain acted as a peacekeeper within the organization as seen during their meetings where is quick to defuse any arguments or disagreements to keep the peace. Obito had no reason to hide from the rest of the members and even when he did the Hidden Villages found out his identity of "Madara" behind both Pain and Tobi. Now let me defuse the "they would've attacked if they knew he was just Obito" ideal you have going on.

In one of the scans you linked, Obito says the Gokage has started to take action after Pain and Sasuke's actions. At this point the Gokage didn't know who the leader was, what their goals were, how many there were, what power they held, where their base was and overall almost no intel on them. If they couldn't plan an attack, nor could they plan a defense, why did they meet? Because they finally recognized the organization as a threat at a global level. They already knew the organization existed for years as stated by Ay.

Because of the power display of destroying Konoha and taking Killer Bee, they proved themselves as a threat and therefore the Gokage acted. During this meeting they realized the dangers of the organization in full when Danzo revealed that their leader was likely Madara and when Obito decided to tell them his plans as a means to threaten them. If Obito hadn't declared war then the villages would more than likely retreat and defend themselves, not form a army together as stated by several of the Kage. They were more concerned with their own villages.

The Gokage didn't know much until Obito told them everything and the little the knew was from what Jiraya and spies had figured out years ago. There was no point in Obito upholding his deal with Itachi other than the risk that he might get killed by Itachi or that Itachi could take out several members of the Akatsuki, putting Obito's plan on a massive delay.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

There was nothing to spill, he had already told Naruto about the end goals of the Akatsuki based on what he personally knew. He believed they were building a weapon to force the world into submission. That was partly true. There was no secrets to be told Naruto anymore as I would highly doubt that Obito would share detailed information with Nagato and Konan if he even lied about their true goal.

Well you’re wrong on that part because as far as Naruto and everyone else was concerned. There was still secrets:

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So what this tells me is that you don’t properly read the manga at all.

And this is where my example comes into play. This is exactly what Konan did. She even admits it. After spending years by Obito's side she was able to figure out how Kamui worked and because of that she figured she could never beat him in a straight fight and thus had to prepare for it. She went into the fight with him fully expecting to kill him even if she had to give her life in doing so. Her dialogue to Obito gives this away, she truly believed she could kill him and stop him.

That’s a huge speculation. Unlike you, Konan doesn’t believe that Tobi only had 1 ability. She was only able to figure out that one but she never thought that she can actually beat him. So she delayed it by creating prep and hiding the body. If she though that she can kill him, she wouldn’t of needed to hide the body.

On top of that thinking and being able to beat someone is two different things. Obviously she wasn’t able to when Tobi revealed that he had the six path power to use a complete izanagi including shadow and light style (not the truth seeking senjutsu orb version).

Now this is funny. What Obito is talking about here isn't the need to keep secret anymore, its the fact that because of Pain and Taka attacking two villages at the same, the Gokage can no longer pretend that the Akatsuki isn't a threat to all of them. They already knew about the organization for years as stated by the Gokage in the meeting. They only underestimated their powers and because of Pain and Taka they now don't, they have started to move, they are going to plot to stop the Akatsuki now. The Gokage knew no more of the Akatsuki before Obito talked to them than they already had known for years.

What’s funny is that you’re not able to read the dialogue properly and understand the context.
The whole point of Akatsuki moving in secrecy is because they didn’t want the Gokages to get involved with stopping the organization. It was after Bee that the meeting was held.

Obito spilled the beans because he was trying to threaten them into giving up. Something they didn't do. It was a power play on his side that failed. The reason he risked this was that no matter what he did he knew the Gokage would attack so it didn't matter if they knew about his plans or not, but telling them might just be enough to threaten them to do a mistake. That was Obito's character. A man who lacked the power to change the world, so he tried to change the people within it to benefit him as he did with Nagato, Sasuke, Kisame and tried to do with Naruto.

Obito didn’t spill intel on anything and everything else you said is headcanon.
He didn’t tell them about Akatsuki’s numbers or even what intel he had on them prior to the meeting. All of this was kept a secret until the five nations decided to take action against Akatsuki. And even then he didn’t tell them about Akatsuki’s weaknesses or numbers.

When Obito approaches Sasuke for the first time, Itachi's failsafe kicks in, hitting Obito with Amaterasu. At this point Obito thinks to himself;



This makes it painfully obvious that Obito did fear Itachi to a degree, enough to try and keep as many secrets from him as possible as to avoid being killed by Itachi. This means that because of Itachi's power, his intellect and abilities in combat, Obito feared him greatly.

Haha what? That Amaterasu failed. He beat it without a Kamui as a last minute trick to keep Obito away from Sasuke:

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The reason why Itachi was a threat to Obito is because he was a spy and he would spread intel on him if he knew everything about him. That’s why he would be dead. He never said that Itachi can out right beat him and neither did Itachi.

This doesn't hold water. We don't know what Itachi knew or didn't know. The villages figured out that the Akatsuki wanted to collect the Bijuu regardless. Either Itachi leaked the information and Obito was a idiot or Obito was just not careful with how he went about his plans, making it appear obvious. Heck, Jiraya knew about this in Part 1. Orochimaru could also leak the information, yet Obito didn't do anything to avoid that. He simply didn't care as it wasn't important to his plans if they knew or not. Not even Nagato knew the true goal of the organization, making it unlikely that Obito shared such information to Itachi and I doubt he had it written down on a note somewhere.

More speculations. How about you read what the manga says and stop trying to put your own logic into what’s already been confirmed a fact.

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Obito knew that he was a spy, Itachi just gave Obito an ultimatum that if he attacks the leaf village then he’ll leak out all the information he knows about him to the leaf village. Hence why he said got thing he didn’t know, otherwise he would be dead.

This is turning into a bash fiesta for you it seems. As stated above, the reason no one cared about the Akatsuki wasn't because of who Obito was or who they believed him to be. In-fact no one knew who the leader was and most of the Gokage had no idea that the real leader was said to be Madara Uchiha until Danzo spilled the beans in the Kage Summit. Obito hiding his identity served little to no purpose outside of making Pain the figure head that the rest of the Akatsuki followed. Obito never forced anyone into the Akatsuki himself, he talked them into it as seen with Kisame and Itachi.

Pain acted as the glue that held them together, the power they needed to believe in order to think they stood a chance in this goal. Furthermore Pain acted as a peacekeeper within the organization as seen during their meetings where is quick to defuse any arguments or disagreements to keep the peace. Obito had no reason to hide from the rest of the members and even when he did the Hidden Villages found out his identity of "Madara" behind both Pain and Tobi. Now let me defuse the "they would've attacked if they knew he was just Obito" ideal you have going on.

In one of the scans you linked, Obito says the Gokage has started to take action after Pain and Sasuke's actions. At this point the Gokage didn't know who the leader was, what their goals were, how many there were, what power they held, where their base was and overall almost no intel on them. If they couldn't plan an attack, nor could they plan a defense, why did they meet? Because they finally recognized the organization as a threat at a global level. They already knew the organization existed for years as stated by Ay.

Because of the power display of destroying Konoha and taking Killer Bee, they proved themselves as a threat and therefore the Gokage acted. During this meeting they realized the dangers of the organization in full when Danzo revealed that their leader was likely Madara and when Obito decided to tell them his plans as a means to threaten them. If Obito hadn't declared war then the villages would more than likely retreat and defend themselves, not form a army together as stated by several of the Kage. They were more concerned with their own villages.

The Gokage didn't know much until Obito told them everything and the little the knew was from what Jiraya and spies had figured out years ago. There was no point in Obito upholding his deal with Itachi other than the risk that he might get killed by Itachi or that Itachi could take out several members of the Akatsuki, putting Obito's plan on a massive delay.

I’m gonna cut this short because the rest of what you’re saying is opinions and not facts. So there is no point in arguing opinions.
Obito is stronger than Pain and his jutsus are superior. He’s defeated stronger opponents and even train under Madara under his new found powers after Kamui and wood style.

 

[NinjaP00PandPEEJutsu]

I'd say so, Obito's pain was greater...