NB Team Debate League round 3: Dusk emperors vs Turnt Up

[~Puppet Master~]

Sorry for the delay, I think TailedSage went MIA again so I took the liberty of making the opener, I hope this isn't inconvenient for the opposing team u_u

'Lel... Sasori solos...

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Countering Orochimaru

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Alright, first to counter your statement that Sasori is weak at close range, this is not true. Chiyo said this before knowing Sasori turned his body into a puppet, Sasori can easily prevail in a close range situation with his puppet body that is soaked in poison. Orochimaru would want to stay away from Sasori instead, which might not be a good move either.

Sasori has two rotors on his back that can spin around at great speed, these can easily rip through his cloak if he's in a dire situation, his stinger is so fast that even Sakura, who was trained at dodging attacks, could not avoid it [

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]. If Orochimaru wants to get up close, Sasori will surely not hesitate to use this.

You also say that Sasori's poison is a non factor since Orochimaru can shed his body, this is yet again not true. Sasori's poison has been shown to spread ridiculously fast and paralyze the opponent before they realize it [

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], and since Orochimaru's new body is either stored inside his old one or created from the cells of his old one, his new body might carry the poison with it, especially since it spreads fast and body shedding doesn't happen instantly [

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]. It has also been shown that the bigger the wound and the amount of poison, the faster it takes effect [

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][

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].

Iron Sand: Drizzle is one of Sasori's deadliest techniques, one which you say Orochimaru can counter with Fuuton, but this is most likely not the case. The attack is one of his fastest, Chiyo and Sakura couldn't dodge it so they had to block it instead, it's roughly more powerful than a machine gun. Since the shower is fired using magnetism, its speed is incredible, and Iron Sand has been shown to reach speeds like none before. Not only this technique, but many other Iron Sand techniques could only be dodged by either being controlled by a person from behind, or figuring out Sasori's attack pattern.

As for summons, these won't be that much of a problem, big creatures are easy targets for Sasori's poison, and all the snakes will drop dead in a short time, which will only cause Orochimaru to waste chakra on them. 10 000 snakes, however, do pose a problem, one that I will counter shortly.


Proving that Sasori's attacks break the sound barrier

---

There has been much speculation on this, but let me illustrate it. See here [

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], you can see how he pummels the spikes downward with magnetic power.

Now look at this [

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], note that you can see the similarity between what happened to the jet, and what happened to the spike, also note the sound effect: woosh

This proves that Sasori's attacks are too fast for Orochimaru to dodge, and probably too fast for Orochimaru to merge with the ground as a counter.


Countering dem snakes

---

As you said before, Orochimaru's 10 000 snakes really are a pest for Sasori, and neither poison nor Iron Sand would be able to stop them, however that doesn't mean the prodigy is out of moves...

As is obvious, Iron Sand is controlled by the Third Kazekage puppet directly with his magnetic chakra [

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], Sasori himself can make use of this, by standing on it and taking it to the skies. By using the puppet to propell the Iron Sand, carrying Sasori, into the air, Sasori would be able to fly. This is the perfect counter, since the snakes can't get to a high place because of their size.

The only way for Orochimaru to hit Sasori like this, would be to extend his body and hit him with the sword of Kusanagi, this would be an easy opening for Sasori to hit Orochimaru with Iron Sand, or even block the sword with the Iron Sand he's standing on. From here on out, the battle is pretty much in Sasori's favor because Orochimaru's only other way to get him from that range, Yamata no Jutsu, is restricted.


It's the final act, any more would be pointless...

---

From the sky, Sasori can use the same attack I used to illustrate his attack speed, to hit Orochimaru and impale him enough to make body shedding near impossible, and makes the poison spread enough to paralyze Orochimaru. Sasori can also make the Iron Sand rain down from up high to make sure Orochimaru doesn't get away, poison clouds could make the situation even worse if Orochimaru attemts to merge with the earth.

Obviously, after this point, killing him would be like stealing candy from a baby.


Retake control of Kabuto's loyalty

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This was, of course, the original objective.

Sasori has the perfect technique to do this [

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][

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]. This technique places a needle inside the victim's brain in order to conceal memories, effectively returning Kabuto to the point where he was still loyal to Sasori.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Orochimaru triumphs!!

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]Countering Orochimaru

---

Alright, first to counter your statement that Sasori is weak at close range, this is not true. Chiyo said this before knowing Sasori turned his body into a puppet, Sasori can easily prevail in a close range situation with his puppet body that is soaked in poison. Orochimaru would want to stay away from Sasori instead, which might not be a good move either.


Sasori has two rotors on his back that can spin around at great speed, these can easily rip through his cloak if he's in a dire situation, his stinger is so fast that even Sakura, who was trained at dodging attacks, could not avoid it [

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]. If Orochimaru wants to get up close, Sasori will surely not hesitate to use this.[/FONT]

Eh, not quite. Lets look at the facts for a minute. First of all, when using his own human puppet form, Sasori's core is entirely exposed [

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]. Why do I mention this? It's quite simple; Orochimaru's sword of Kusangi provides us with range, range far greater than anything Sasori can produce in his Human puppet form [

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]. What I am getting at here? It's quite simple. From a distance, Orochimaru can extend his blade towards Sasori, and attempt a shot at his heart. So by revealing his puppet self, Sasori holds no advantages here; he's just exposing himself for Orochimaru's attacks - attacks which Sasori doesn't have a subtle counter for in his human puppet form. His flamethrower is countered by the body replacment technique [

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], and his extendable wire is effortlessly ricocheted or sliced in two by Orochimaru's blade - a blade which holds the power to hurt diamond [

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]. With that said, cutting through his wire should be as easy as running a knife through butter. The only thing Sasori's achieving by showcasing his human body is a sword to the heart. If he tries coming close, that's literally suicide. This is how close he got to Chiyo [

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]... now think about how risky getting that close to Orochimaru would be. It's as simple as a forward thrust of his blade to his heart, that is all. Even if Orochimaru doesn't aim at his core, he can use this as a benefit of gaining info on his core, and from there, Orochimaru knows what he needs to do.


As for your point of Sakura not being able to dodge, that had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks speed. Lmao, I love how you conveniantly leave out the scan prior to that, which shows Sakura taking cover behind rocks [

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]. Fact is, Sakura couldn't see the attack coming -- not only was she taking cover, but smoke is clearly visible from Sasori's previous fire based assault [

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]. Proving that this was indeed a blind side shot, this further supports my prior accusation of Orochimaru being effortlessly able to cut the wire in half. Again, Sasori stands zero chance in CQC with Orochimaru.

You also say that Sasori's poison is a non factor since Orochimaru can shed his body, this is yet again not true. Sasori's poison has been shown to spread ridiculously fast and paralyze the opponent before they realize it [

You must be registered for see links

], and since Orochimaru's new body is either stored inside his old one or created from the cells of his old one, his new body might carry the poison with it, especially since it spreads fast and body shedding doesn't happen instantly [

You must be registered for see links

]. It has also been shown that the bigger the wound and the amount of poison, the faster it takes effect [

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

].

The truth is, we don't need body shedding to counter Sasori's poison. You wanna know why? Orochimaru has taken control over a Zetsu body [

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]. Yeah, you probably guessed it, Zetsu doesn't contain blood, as he is made entirely of Hashirama's cells. As he contains no blood, the poison simply has nothing to contaminate - there is nothing to attack, no blood stream, no nothing. In fact, my accusations are further supported by the databook. Fushi Tensei, the technique which allows Orochimaru to take over another body is described as...

A jutsu to obtain everlasting life by repeatedly transferring one's psyche into someone else's body.

He's completely taken Zetsu's body, and honestly, this was confirmed by Tobirama [

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]. Yeah, the poison isn't doing shit. What little blood Orochimaru may have, isn't enough for Sasori to fully benefit from his poison.

Iron Sand: Drizzle is one of Sasori's deadliest techniques, one which you say Orochimaru can counter with Fuuton, but this is most likely not the case. The attack is one of his fastest, Chiyo and Sakura couldn't dodge it so they had to block it instead, it's roughly more powerful than a machine gun. Since the shower is fired using magnetism, its speed is incredible, and Iron Sand has been shown to reach speeds like none before. Not only this technique, but many other Iron Sand techniques could only be dodged by either being controlled by a person from behind, or figuring out Sasori's attack pattern.

Iron sand is quite simply tanked.

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, laughed at

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and got cut in

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isn't being fazed by some bullets. Especially since I've already proven how the poison isn't effecting him.

As for summons, these won't be that much of a problem, big creatures are easy targets for Sasori's poison, and all the snakes will drop dead in a short time, which will only cause Orochimaru to waste chakra on them. 10 000 snakes, however, do pose a problem, one that I will counter shortly.

Normally, large summons such as the snakes wouldn't be a problem; they wouldn't be a problem if the opposition didn't have info that is. Since we know all about your poison though, we're going to play it smart. Large snakes have the ability to go underground [

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] and completely blindside the opponent. This can also be executed at an extremely fast pace. Should Orochimaru's snakes choose to play this method, to avoid falling pray to the poison, Sasori's more or less ****ed. Not only is he going to have Orochimaru to worry about, but he also has to worry about having (a) snake(s) traveling underground who can devour Sasori in one go.

Proving that Sasori's attacks break the sound barrier

---

There has been much speculation on this, but let me illustrate it. See here [

You must be registered for see links

], you can see how he pummels the spikes downward with magnetic power.

Now look at this [

You must be registered for see links

], note that you can see the similarity between what happened to the jet, and what happened to the spike, also note the sound effect: woosh
This proves that Sasori's attacks are too fast for Orochimaru to dodge, and probably too fast for Orochimaru to merge with the ground as a counter.

Sasori being able to break the sound barrier is old news to me; I'm aware he can do it, but it isn't too fast for Orochimaru to react to. Come on man, a feeble old hag like Chiyo reacted in time, Orochimaru can do the same. One thing you're not taking into consideration though, is the jutsu's formation time. Just look at the time it takes to form [

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][

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]. That is far too long to catch someone like Orochimaru off guard; sure, the actual attack speed of the jutsu is fast, but we're not gonna stand there and watch it form, like Sakura and the old lady. Orochimaru's far too intelligent for that (who by the way boasts a 5 in this department in the DB). In this time, Orochimaru can use the attack prevention jutsu. You already know the fundamentals on the attack; by merging into the land surrounding him [

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], it allows him to avoid any incoming attacks, and to make matters worse, Sasori cannot detect him. By doing this, Orochimaru can then travel undetected, and he may even use this as an advantage to surprise Sasori from behind, and eliminate him from behind.

Countering dem snakes

---

As you said before, Orochimaru's 10 000 snakes really are a pest for Sasori, and neither poison nor Iron Sand would be able to stop them, however that doesn't mean the prodigy is out of moves...

As is obvious, Iron Sand is controlled by the Third Kazekage puppet directly with his magnetic chakra [

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], Sasori himself can make use of this, by standing on it and taking it to the skies. By using the puppet to propell the Iron Sand, carrying Sasori, into the air, Sasori would be able to fly. This is the perfect counter, since the snakes can't get to a high place because of their size.

It's the final act, any more would be pointless...

---

From the sky, Sasori can use the same attack I used to illustrate his attack speed, to hit Orochimaru and impale him enough to make body shedding near impossible, and makes the poison spread enough to paralyze Orochimaru. Sasori can also make the Iron Sand rain down from up high to make sure Orochimaru doesn't get away, poison clouds could make the situation even worse if Orochimaru attemts to merge with the earth.

Obviously, after this point, killing him would be like stealing candy from a baby.

Yeah, Sasori has means of avoiding the snakes, but eliminating the larger ones [

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] would surely divert his attention for a while. I mean, due to their sheer size, more poison is going to be required to put them down. Should Orochimaru use this method, he can try and blindside Sasori and aim straight for his heart with his blade. If not, simply standing on one of their heads gives Orochimaru at least some elevation; I'm aware Sasori would put them down in short time, but using this as a distraction may leave Sasori little time to react. These guys are practically touching the clouds, that's how huge they are. Sasori would simply be overwhelmed by the trio of snakes. Taking one of them out leaves him wide open for an attack, and Orochimaru isn't one to miss his chance. There are three, and while taking one of them out would distract him for a while (again, larger size = more poison), the other two are more or less free. In this time, they can either devour Sasori, in more or less this fashion [

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], or they can give Orochimaru some height, for him to extend his sword in time pierce Sasori.

It's like I said, Sasori would get overwhelmed by the sheer size, number and power Orochimaru has in his arsenal. His snakes would give Sasori too much of a headache, and would eventually leave Orochimaru free in order to counter.

You're also highly mistaken if you think impaling him in going to do you justice. You should know by now, physical wounds are useless. Above, I've showed you Oro laughing at bisection, but let me shown you something else. Obviously, the Totsuka blade is enchanted with sealing properties, but look at Oro's initial reaction to being fully pierced by it [

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]. Yeah, no matter which way you look at it, blades falling from the skies aren't taking out Orochimaru. In fact, Orochimaru can very well just dodge the blade, or rather, have one of his snakes dodge for him. Snakes are extremely agile [

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], so hitting them from the skies with his sound barrier breaking attacks isn't going to be as easy as you think. Not to mention, they can see the attack coming from quite a way a way (considering Sasori's airborne, as you claim he'd be).

Retake control of Kabuto's loyalty

---

This was, of course, the original objective.

Sasori has the perfect technique to do this [

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

]. This technique places a needle inside the victim's brain in order to conceal memories, effectively returning Kabuto to the point where he was still loyal to Sasori.

Kabuto? He knows where he belongs.. [

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]

 

[TheTailedSage]

Orochimaru triumphs!!

---

Eh, not quite. Lets look at the facts for a minute. First of all, when using his own human puppet form, Sasori's core is entirely exposed [

You must be registered for see links

]. Why do I mention this? It's quite simple; Orochimaru's sword of Kusangi provides us with range, range far greater than anything Sasori can produce in his Human puppet form [

You must be registered for see links

]. What I am getting at here? It's quite simple. From a distance, Orochimaru can extend his blade towards Sasori, and attempt a shot at his heart. So by revealing his puppet self, Sasori holds no advantages here; he's just exposing himself for Orochimaru's attacks - attacks which Sasori doesn't have a subtle counter for in his human puppet form. His flamethrower is countered by the body replacment technique [

You must be registered for see links

], and his extendable wire is effortlessly ricocheted or sliced in two by Orochimaru's blade - a blade which holds the power to hurt diamond [

You must be registered for see links

]. With that said, cutting through his wire should be as easy as running a knife through butter. The only thing Sasori's achieving by showcasing his human body is a sword to the heart. If he tries coming close, that's literally suicide. This is how close he got to Chiyo [

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]... now think about how risky getting that close to Orochimaru would be. It's as simple as a forward thrust of his blade to his heart, that is all. Even if Orochimaru doesn't aim at his core, he can use this as a benefit of gaining info on his core, and from there, Orochimaru knows what he needs to do.


As for your point of Sakura not being able to dodge, that had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks speed. Lmao, I love how you conveniantly leave out the scan prior to that, which shows Sakura taking cover behind rocks [

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]. Fact is, Sakura couldn't see the attack coming -- not only was she taking cover, but smoke is clearly visible from Sasori's previous fire based assault [

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]. Proving that this was indeed a blind side shot, this further supports my prior accusation of Orochimaru being effortlessly able to cut the wire in half. Again, Sasori stands zero chance in CQC with Orochimaru.



The truth is, we don't need body shedding to counter Sasori's poison. You wanna know why? Orochimaru has taken control over a Zetsu body [

You must be registered for see links

]. Yeah, you probably guessed it, Zetsu doesn't contain blood, as he is made entirely of Hashirama's cells. As he contains no blood, the poison simply has nothing to contaminate - there is nothing to attack, no blood stream, no nothing. In fact, my accusations are further supported by the databook. Fushi Tensei, the technique which allows Orochimaru to take over another body is described as...

A jutsu to obtain everlasting life by repeatedly transferring one's psyche into someone else's body.

He's completely taken Zetsu's body, and honestly, this was confirmed by Tobirama [

You must be registered for see links

]. Yeah, the poison isn't doing shit. What little blood Orochimaru may have, isn't enough for Sasori to fully benefit from his poison.



Iron sand is quite simply tanked.

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, laughed at

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and got cut in

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isn't being fazed by some bullets. Especially since I've already proven how the poison isn't effecting him.



Normally, large summons such as the snakes wouldn't be a problem; they wouldn't be a problem if the opposition didn't have info that is. Since we know all about your poison though, we're going to play it smart. Large snakes have the ability to go underground [

You must be registered for see links

] and completely blindside the opponent. This can also be executed at an extremely fast pace. Should Orochimaru's snakes choose to play this method, to avoid falling pray to the poison, Sasori's more or less ****ed. Not only is he going to have Orochimaru to worry about, but he also has to worry about having (a) snake(s) traveling underground who can devour Sasori in one go.




Sasori being able to break the sound barrier is old news to me; I'm aware he can do it, but it isn't too fast for Orochimaru to react to. Come on man, a feeble old hag like Chiyo reacted in time, Orochimaru can do the same. One thing you're not taking into consideration though, is the jutsu's formation time. Just look at the time it takes to form [

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][

You must be registered for see links

]. That is far too long to catch someone like Orochimaru off guard; sure, the actual attack speed of the jutsu is fast, but we're not gonna stand there and watch it form, like Sakura and the old lady. Orochimaru's far too intelligent for that (who by the way boasts a 5 in this department in the DB). In this time, Orochimaru can use the attack prevention jutsu. You already know the fundamentals on the attack; by merging into the land surrounding him [

You must be registered for see links

], it allows him to avoid any incoming attacks, and to make matters worse, Sasori cannot detect him. By doing this, Orochimaru can then travel undetected, and he may even use this as an advantage to surprise Sasori from behind, and eliminate him from behind.



Yeah, Sasori has means of avoiding the snakes, but eliminating the larger ones [

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] would surely divert his attention for a while. I mean, due to their sheer size, more poison is going to be required to put them down. Should Orochimaru use this method, he can try and blindside Sasori and aim straight for his heart with his blade. If not, simply standing on one of their heads gives Orochimaru at least some elevation; I'm aware Sasori would put them down in short time, but using this as a distraction may leave Sasori little time to react. These guys are practically touching the clouds, that's how huge they are. Sasori would simply be overwhelmed by the trio of snakes. Taking one of them out leaves him wide open for an attack, and Orochimaru isn't one to miss his chance. There are three, and while taking one of them out would distract him for a while (again, larger size = more poison), the other two are more or less free. In this time, they can either devour Sasori, in more or less this fashion [

You must be registered for see links

], or they can give Orochimaru some height, for him to extend his sword in time pierce Sasori.

It's like I said, Sasori would get overwhelmed by the sheer size, number and power Orochimaru has in his arsenal. His snakes would give Sasori too much of a headache, and would eventually leave Orochimaru free in order to counter.

You're also highly mistaken if you think impaling him in going to do you justice. You should know by now, physical wounds are useless. Above, I've showed you Oro laughing at bisection, but let me shown you something else. Obviously, the Totsuka blade is enchanted with sealing properties, but look at Oro's initial reaction to being fully pierced by it [

You must be registered for see links

]. Yeah, no matter which way you look at it, blades falling from the skies aren't taking out Orochimaru. In fact, Orochimaru can very well just dodge the blade, or rather, have one of his snakes dodge for him. Snakes are extremely agile [

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], so hitting them from the skies with his sound barrier breaking attacks isn't going to be as easy as you think. Not to mention, they can see the attack coming from quite a way a way (considering Sasori's airborne, as you claim he'd be).




Kabuto? He knows where he belongs.. [

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]

---

The sword and how sasori counters

You seem to make this sword like it one shots sasori. Though sasoris weakness is exposed this means nothing if sasori is able to evade the linear attack of this sword. Though it has range its weakness is that it ha no shown any form of flexibility, meaning it can only cut straight ahead. If sasori evades this he should be fine wheather it be in or out of his mouth. IF orochimaru decides to telekineticly control it he has to use his finger in which sasori will clock on as to how he does this and attack orochimaru himself to force him to abort controlling it.

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. Even so, he would be leaving himself wide open to attacks if he did this which is why he only moves it telekineticly as a last resort and keeps it in his mouth. He hasn't displayed much skill in kenjutsu. The only thing we know is that it can cut through almost anything. But not even orochimaru was shown to use this consistantly.

When he used it to hurt enma, he didnt really show any skill in using the sword and he mostly blocked with it when he had it in his hand. We also know this sword isnt dual edged

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this is important because there is only one side that can cut through anything,meaning it will be that much easier to evade and parry/disarm. if it were dual edged he would be able to fling it around recklessly and cut anything but since he hasnt shown much skill with it, its safe to assume that disarming him is quite easy, especially for a person like sasori who uses multiple weapons like puppet buzzsaw or he could even use the third and use the sand to attack orochimaru so he cant use the sword or distract the sword, which isnt necessary since, as i said, orochimaru is a sitting duck. sasori got close but so did enma. not he didnt go for cutting he used the side of the blade to block it. this may show us that when it comes to close range kenjutsu at close calls he is forced on the defensive. The fact that enma is diamond hard has nothing to do with why he blocked it because it was said that it hurt him. if orochimaru was capable of attacking, he would of done so. sasori also knows about the swords capability so he wont recklessly lunge in without a plan.

Body replacement takes up quite a lot of chakra and orochimaru will use this only when he has to even though he has hashi cells, he still has a chakra limit.

Hold on...

Furthermore, If sasori is using the third kazekage then the swords use is useless since metallic weapons dont work of sasori because of magnetism and the sand is coming in fro all directions and is terribly tricky to dodge; plus the sword cant cut chakra strings and he would have to get close enough to even harm sasori which he will have trouble doing due to iron sand. sakura needed help from chiyo to dodge the sand and we are talking about someone who was trained to dodge. This point in effect tells us that both the speed of sasori using the puppet itself and the sands puppet is incredibly fast. by using iron sand world model this just makes things even worst for orochimaru because this can pin him down and will even slow him down when using body replacement, due to the brances restricting movement

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Sound barrier thing and orochimarus' arrogance
Though i agree it takes a bit of time to set up It will attack orochimaru. We have to take orochimarus personality into consideration. He always likes to see new jutsu and how they operate so the chances are he will become intrigued and allow him to proceed. He did it with the TBB 4 tails naruto, seeing as this took much prep time to form, orochimaru could of done something but chose to examine it first till the end

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, this put him on the defensive and forced him to use the gates. Taunting is also another thing orochimaru likes to do, considering he likes to talk out his plans and what hes going to do, this is how sasori prepares his attack. IT happened with chiyo as idol chatter lead to a harder battle. His arrogance and cocky behavior is what will allow sasori to commence attacks that require prep. by the time he might realizes, its too late and hes on the defensive

The Cells
Your wrong again SOTRS because poison destroys cells, and since DNA requires chromosomes which require cells. regardless of weather he has blood cells or hashi cells, he gets damaged. If it doesn't poison him it renders hashi cell functions useless because it KILLS the cells. If the cell is destroyed then so is the DNA and as PM said, it spread quickly so orochimaru will indeed need to be careful. And since all of sasoris weapons contain poison, even using body replacement he will have to watch out not to get poisoned again, making it worst.


Manda and the 3 snakes

If this snake decides to go underground, it will make a huge hole yes? if kazekage is out then its basically like whack-a-mole only hes using the sand to go under ground and chase manda. plus he has sand to chase after orochimaru. Once the snake surfaces, against or for his will (due to sand chasing him. He will become a huge and easy target, thus getting jacked up with poison. lets not also forget the sand has poision on it!

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Plus since he is so big, it will take him a while to fully go under ground, sasori will have a slight chance to hit him before that happens, and its not like hes going to know what to do straight away, orochimaru has to tell hi so this is just more time for sasori to hit him. Manda snakes will have no starting knowledge on sasori.

Multi snakes still isnt a problem since he can use iron tree world even in this scenario. Howeer. Snakes have a tendency to only focus on one thing at a time which is where they will all fall.

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This is what sasori will use the iron sand to do while they are busy attack either him or the puppet kazekage. He was unaware tsunade was there about to attack and as PM and i have said, sasoris ability to allow the puppets attacks and puppets themselves to move fast is incredible. again. Not only can he do this to the snakes but the sand has poison so this makes matter worst and the poison will spread even faster due to the amount inserted.

That scenario is to be considered unless...
Since you said orochimaru has no blood then how will he summon anything to begin with? you need blood to summon and you have just said he doesn't have any blood. So logically he cant summon
Kabuto
Yeah, on sasoris side. With this jutsu, he needs oro to reverse it, which he wont have this time around​

 

[Prince Charles]

One more post from dusk emperors is allowed. After that this match is closed.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Well, I suppose it's time for me to end this.
Turnt up have successfully backed Orochimaru up into a corner. So without further ado I'll begin.

The truth is, we don't need body shedding to counter Sasori's poison. You wanna know why? Orochimaru has taken control over a Zetsu body [

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]. Yeah, you probably guessed it, Zetsu doesn't contain blood, as he is made entirely of Hashirama's cells. As he contains no blood, the poison simply has nothing to contaminate - there is nothing to attack, no blood stream, no nothing. In fact, my accusations are further supported by the databook. Fushi Tensei, the technique which allows Orochimaru to take over another body is described as...

A jutsu to obtain everlasting life by repeatedly transferring one's psyche into someone else's body.

He's completely taken Zetsu's body, and honestly, this was confirmed by Tobirama [

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]. Yeah, the poison isn't doing shit. What little blood Orochimaru may have, isn't enough for Sasori to fully benefit from his poison.

So you've established that Orochimaru is in fact inhabiting a Zetsu body. Now if this body is truly devoid of blood as you claim, then Orochimaru wouldn't have blood readily available in his digits to summon. Which would then eliminate a large bulk of his snake based arsenal as the majority of the jutsu he's used relies on summoning.

If the body does have blood that Orochimaru is still at risk of succumbing to the poison. In addition, Chiyo noted that even

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was enough to fatal for a human. Therefore, it stands to reason that if his summons get caught in a poison fog or cut by the iron sand, the summons will die.
Formation of ten thousand snakes would be impressive but iron sand could kill the bulk of the snakes fairly easily. This combo should be enough to take out a large portion of the snakes as they will be tangled together and thus unable to avoid the

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. The AoE would leave many more snakes damaged. And if the snakes have blades as the databook makes it seems they do, the

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property of the blades spell doom for them quickly as they'd be drawn in to Sasori's attacks.

The wonder of an infinite number of snake blades squirming and slithering over the ground!!

But that's still assuming he can summon in his current state.

Should the snakes go underground Sasori could have his 3rd Kazekage puppet use

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and simply wait in the center of the attack. For the snake to come above ground. When it does it will cut itself several times in a failed attempt to capture/ kill Sasori and only succeed in sealing its own doom. This method would allow Sasori to allow most of his attention to rest on Orochimaru.

Without summoning jutsu Orochimaru won't make it past Hiruko. Without his giant summons Orochimaru doesn't possess something great enough to break through Hiruko's defense. The only distance jutsus that Orochimaru would really be able to use is Longsword of the sky, which would fail to accomplish anything, and Great Breakthrough ,which would serve no purpose here. Essentially leaving a bloodless Orochimaru screwed and forced to try and engage in CQC. In CQC Sasori hasn't hesitated to go for a

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Even Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth couldn't save him from that.

Assuming he does have blood, he may fall prey to Sasori's first attack but assuming he doesn't he'll likely summon a large snake or multiple large snakes as his only way to crush Hiruko. From there Sasori would leave Hiruko and bring out the 3rd Kazekage. Which would kill the snakes, one way or another as mentioned above. Orochimaru's only applicable long range jutsu would still be longsword of the sky which would still be ineffective due to Magnet Release. Thus, if he want to get in at Sasori's heart, he's going to need to come in close for the kill. But what is he going to kill him with since his weapons have magnetic properties? Which leads me to my next issue. Lord Orochimaru, often keeps the sword of kusanagi within himself.

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, and

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. If he doesn't take the sword of Kusanagi out before the third Kazekage puppet comes out to play, then Sasori can very well force Orochimaru to use Oral Rebirth when Kusanagi is ripped out of Orochimaru due to magnetic force.
I doubt Sasori will be forced to move past the 3rd Kazekage, at that point Orochimaru doesn't have a means to force Sasori's hand. His summons are all dealt with handily by Iron Sand.
But let's assume for a moment, that Orochimaru miraculously destroys the third Kazekage. This seems unlikely, but he then has an additional 298 puppets 296 puppets in his inventory. We know how he has used 100 puppets before, once to conquer a nation, so they are not fodder puppets. But at this point, Orochimaru is screwed. There's simply no way he's keeping up with 100 puppets at once. Sasori wouldn't even be pushed to use himself. The puppets, would slice, dice, and poison Orochimaru to the effect that not only will he be too numb to use Oral Rebirth, his body would be so saturated with poison it's doubtful, that even oral rebirth would be able to rid the poison from his system. Beyond that the only weapon Orochimaru would have left at his disposal would be his true form and perhaps if he did manage to defeat the Third Kazekage puppet his sword of kusunagi again. But that is not enough to save him in this situation.
Should Orochimaru try to use slithering snake mode to close the gap between him and Sasori, then Sasori could easily attack with his flame throwers, and create a wall of attacks with his puppets. Should he try attack prevention then Sasori needs only elevate himself, have his puppets ready, and as soon as Orochimaru shows himself, he's back in the same situation he just left.
And why does Sasori get Kabuto? After Orochimaru's dead body is found, there'll be no one left for him to run to. His craving for power and identity will lead him to the Tour-de-force that is Sasori. The man who's personality is as distinct as his puppets and power was great enough to slay the great Snake.
It comes to this at the end of the day, when Orochimaru and Sasori go at it.... Orochimaru gets shut down, as soon as Sasori gets Turnt up.

 

[Zexion~]

Oh god, lmao it was like an Ambush two posts in a row, anyways good job both teams,

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Lmao, I know man. I see so many flaws though, I could counter that. But as they say, aint nobody got time for dat.

 

[TheTailedSage]

Lmao, I know man. I see so many flaws though, I could counter that. But as they say, aint nobody got time for dat.

I actually thuroughly enjoyed countering it nice debate lad

 

[Edo Odin]

Alright, let's get to it. I'd like to apologize for having taken so long, the matters concerning the judging of the tourney in the future are being sorted out right now, so delays like this shouldn't happen again.

Either way, y'all know the drill, I'll cover each post in this debate, mentioning cons and pros, and then I'll explain which team had my vote, and why.

Overall, your post was fairly good. Although you were mistaken on CQC being a bad situation for Sasori, the beginning of your post was correct for the most part. Another thing I felt was a bit off was the part where you stated that Oro's Futon could counter Sasori's Iron Sand Drizzle. The speed and power of the attack was enough to create wholes in the rocky terrain around them, whether Orochimaru's technique would be effective against it, or whether he'd even be able to use it in time is debatable. A safer approach would have been to use SOTRS' way and simply say that he'd tank it. Using the Temporary Paralysis technique was an interesting approach though, one that I myself wouldn't have thought of, so I'll give you credit for that.

The rest of your post was pretty good, I don't have much else to say to be honest. A tiny detail I'd like to have changed would be to rely less on the Kusanagi sword itself and rather go for Orochimaru's other attacks, most preferably with his snakes. Whether the blade can be used or not depends on whether the Kazekage will be brought out sooner or later, so in the end, it's better to avoid mentioning it for the most part rather than risking it.​

Overall, I liked your post. Starting out by explaining how Sasori would prevail in an up close battle was a wise move, and so was explaining the speed and power of the Iron Sand. Taking out to the skies was also a smart thing to do, since as you say, Orochimaru's techniques when it comes to Long range, are lacking.

If I had to comment on anything, it'd be the fact that I don't really feel that your post was aggressive enough. After talking about how he can counter Orochimaru's techniques and get into a safe distance, going into more detail on how he'd fair against him offensively would have been a good thing to do, empathizing more on the offensive capabilities of the Iron Sand for example. But aside from that, I was quite satisfied with your post.​

On this post, my feelings are quite mixed. On one hand, I'm quite impressed of your points concerning the Zetsu body being immune to Sasori's poison, that was something I myself hadn't even thought of before. However, on the other, I feel that the fact that you still used the Large Snakes in Orochimaru's arsenal despite them needing blood to be summoned was a rookie mistake. I'm aware of the fact that a blood sacrifice is not needed for attacks such as the Hidden Shadow Snake Hands, but in the cases where he's summoning the larger snakes such as Manda or the Snake Trio, he's never been shows summoning them without the blood sacrifice. [As far as I remember] So, relying so strongly on the larger snakes was not a very good move, although using the Zetsu body as means of surviving the poison, was brilliant.

However, in the end, that mistake essentially rendered the post insufficient. Immunity to poison or large summons, you can only pick either of them, as both include requirements that destroy the chances of the other being true. Aside from that however, I liked the majority of your post, commenting on Orochimaru's ability to either tank or avoid anything thrown at him was a good move, and using Orochimaru's ability to go underground was too.​

Haven't got too much to say here, I agreed with the majority. A bloodless Orochimaru would indeed have a large piece of his arsenal cut off, explaining why was a smart choice. Utilizing the magnetism properties of the Kazekage's Iron Sand to counter the Kusanagi and the 10.000 snakes was a wise choice as well. [This magnetism is essentially the reason why I feel that this match up is in Sasori's favor] That being said, I did still disagree with some points both of you made, which I'll mention now:

• The Kusanagi being a single edged sword. I can't say I see how the scan of Orochimaru blocking Enma can be considered to be a confirmation of the Kusanagi only having one edge. Using the side of the sword to dodge an attack is just a basic thing to do when it comes to Kenjutsu, which is exactly what Orochimaru did. To be frank, I didn't really understand this point.
• Orochimaru letting his arrogance get the best of him. That's quite unlikely to happen. In the scan you posted, Orochimaru was far away from Naruto, and decided to allow him to use the Jutsu because he knew he'd be able to summon the Rashomon Gates in time, which he did. This does in no way mean that he'll just stand idly by while Sasori is obviously preparing an attack, stating that the two are the same is not really logical. He's arrogant, yes, but he's not stupid.

Other than these, your post was quite good, Tazzilla's especially.​

..My vote goes to the Dusk Emperors. Team Turnt up's posts, while mostly good, did have some holes in them, all of which the DE exposed and used to their advantage. Overall, I felt that they had the stronger points in this debate, [The fact that they had three poss while Turnt Up only had two also put them in quite a comfortable situation] and that they deserve to have my vote in this debate.

Vote goes to: Dusk Emperors
MVP of Turnt Up: SOTRS
MVP of DE: Tazzilla
MVP of the match: Tazzilla​

 

[Zexion~]

Will judge this later tonight

 

[Zexion~]

Not posting a long judgement and i mean it this time ...

Turn't Up

Spoiler

Opening Argument was rough, not very detailed had some discrepancy's such as the WIND counter to Iron sand :/ as SOTRS Oro has no blood so how will he summon?

SOTRS had a pretty damn good argument, except for the summons part and how you said he would simply tank iron sand drizzle :| It would rip through his head ?

Needed better explanation on how he defeated Sasori

All in all you guys were good not great

Dusk Emperors

Spoiler

Opening post was alright as well, had some errors liked your taking to the skies strategy however your team sort of discarded it

TTS post was decent however it Held some very important information such as Magnetism controlling the sword however when in orochimaru's mouth he could easily just retract it negating the effect on him,and them not being able to summon, those were the highlights of your post

Tazzila- good post sort of repeated alot of what your teammates said however

Neither of you really made convincing arguments on how your shinobi would successfully defeat the other

Anyways my vote goes too

Spoiler

Turnt up
Dusk emperors simply did not take advantage of the opportunity you were given due to much repetition in the last posts, you guys did not have good teamwork, as you also disregarded PM's point about going into the air which i thought was extremely good, not to mention the fact that there were more then you yet you guys were on the defensive the whole time was not good, When you guys had the two posts in a row one of you should of countered their points and the other give an in depth reasoning as too how Sasori ends this match, but that was not the case you both decided to add counters :| You guys lost this match more then Turnt up won it U_U

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Not posting a long judgement and i mean it this time ...

Turn't Up

Spoiler

Opening Argument was rough, not very detailed had some discrepancy's such as the WIND counter to Iron sand :/ as SOTRS Oro has no blood so how will he summon?

SOTRS had a pretty damn good argument, except for the summons part and how you said he would simply tank iron sand drizzle :| It would rip through his head ?

Needed better explanation on how he defeated Sasori

All in all you guys were good not great

Dusk Emperors

Spoiler

Opening post was alright as well, had some errors liked your taking to the skies strategy however your team sort of discarded it

TTS post was decent however it Held some very important information such as Magnetism controlling the sword however when in orochimaru's mouth he could easily just retract it negating the effect on him,and them not being able to summon, those were the highlights of your post

Tazzila- good post sort of repeated alot of what your teammates said however

Neither of you really made convincing arguments on how your shinobi would successfully defeat the other

Anyways my vote goes too

Spoiler

Turnt up
Dusk emperors simply did not take advantage of the opportunity you were given due to much repetition in the last posts, you guys did not have good teamwork, as you also disregarded PM's point about going into the air which i thought was extremely good, not to mention the fact that there were more then you yet you guys were on the defensive the whole time was not good, When you guys had the two posts in a row one of you should of countered their points and the other give an in depth reasoning as too how Sasori ends this match, but that was not the case you both decided to add counters :| You guys lost this match more then Turnt up won it U_U

Inbe4 biased judging.

Thanks man, and you know the deal. You have to bend shit your way sometimes.

 

[Zexion~]

Inbe4 biased judging.

Thanks man, and you know the deal. You have to bend shit your way sometimes.

Yes indeed i do,

 

[TheTailedSage]

Not posting a long judgement and i mean it this time ...

Turn't Up

Spoiler

Opening Argument was rough, not very detailed had some discrepancy's such as the WIND counter to Iron sand :/ as SOTRS Oro has no blood so how will he summon?

SOTRS had a pretty damn good argument, except for the summons part and how you said he would simply tank iron sand drizzle :| It would rip through his head ?

Needed better explanation on how he defeated Sasori

All in all you guys were good not great

Dusk Emperors

Spoiler

Opening post was alright as well, had some errors liked your taking to the skies strategy however your team sort of discarded it

TTS post was decent however it Held some very important information such as Magnetism controlling the sword however when in orochimaru's mouth he could easily just retract it negating the effect on him,and them not being able to summon, those were the highlights of your post

Tazzila- good post sort of repeated alot of what your teammates said however

Neither of you really made convincing arguments on how your shinobi would successfully defeat the other

Anyways my vote goes too

Spoiler

Turnt up
Dusk emperors simply did not take advantage of the opportunity you were given due to much repetition in the last posts, you guys did not have good teamwork, as you also disregarded PM's point about going into the air which i thought was extremely good, not to mention the fact that there were more then you yet you guys were on the defensive the whole time was not good, When you guys had the two posts in a row one of you should of countered their points and the other give an in depth reasoning as too how Sasori ends this match, but that was not the case you both decided to add counters :| You guys lost this match more then Turnt up won it U_U

Wow... im not going to say a thing about SOTRS because i respect him and all but dude!! talk about biased :s im not even being THAT guy or a sore loser because im the first guy to shake hands regardless of loss or win ,ask anyone i debate. What the hell man, elaborate on why we lost, all you basically said is that turnt up won. What did you hate about the counters and what did you like. All due respect zexion, you got lazy.

If orochimaru has the blade in his mouth and charges at something that can effortlessly repel the attack to cause orochimaru to suffer a fatigue that puts him in harms way, would that be smart? especially since he has knowledge, he wouldn't even use it.

 

[~Puppet Master~]

Not posting a long judgement and i mean it this time ...

Turn't Up

Spoiler

Opening Argument was rough, not very detailed had some discrepancy's such as the WIND counter to Iron sand :/ as SOTRS Oro has no blood so how will he summon?

SOTRS had a pretty damn good argument, except for the summons part and how you said he would simply tank iron sand drizzle :| It would rip through his head ?

Needed better explanation on how he defeated Sasori

All in all you guys were good not great

Dusk Emperors

Spoiler

Opening post was alright as well, had some errors liked your taking to the skies strategy however your team sort of discarded it

TTS post was decent however it Held some very important information such as Magnetism controlling the sword however when in orochimaru's mouth he could easily just retract it negating the effect on him,and them not being able to summon, those were the highlights of your post

Tazzila- good post sort of repeated alot of what your teammates said however

Neither of you really made convincing arguments on how your shinobi would successfully defeat the other

Anyways my vote goes too

Spoiler

Turnt up
Dusk emperors simply did not take advantage of the opportunity you were given due to much repetition in the last posts, you guys did not have good teamwork, as you also disregarded PM's point about going into the air which i thought was extremely good, not to mention the fact that there were more then you yet you guys were on the defensive the whole time was not good, When you guys had the two posts in a row one of you should of countered their points and the other give an in depth reasoning as too how Sasori ends this match, but that was not the case you both decided to add counters :| You guys lost this match more then Turnt up won it U_U

I think we all know how I always accept the judge's verdict and never really argue with it, but this one is getting a little on my nerves.

I find it strange how you disagree with Turnt Up on how Orochimaru tanks Drizzle, add the fact that you basically ignored my flight argument just because my teammates didn't go deeper into it, and still took Turnt Up's side regardless of the fact that "neither of us made convincing arguments"

Before I had read your final verdict, you truly gave me the impression that we won, so I find your reasoning a bit sloppy...

 

[Zexion~]

Wow... im not going to say a thing about SOTRS because i respect him and all but dude!! talk about biased :s im not even being THAT guy or a sore loser because im the first guy to shake hands regardless of loss or win ,ask anyone i debate. What the hell man, elaborate on why we lost, all you basically said is that turnt up won. What did you hate about the counters and what did you like. All due respect zexion, you got lazy.

If orochimaru has the blade in his mouth and charges at something that can effortlessly repel the attack to cause orochimaru to suffer a fatigue that puts him in harms way, would that be smart? especially since he has knowledge, he wouldn't even use it.

First off, myself personally has doubts that the 3rd Can even control anything besides the iron sand (as their were metal projectiles all over the battlefield during his fight with sakura).. So i was already on the edge with that being your main vocal point, I wasn't lazy, im the only person judging these match-ups so i really did not want to go into as much detail as i usually do, as this was a poor debate regardless,

@ PM, My reasoning probably was sloppy, as i was incredibly tired and iv'e been judging matchups alot latley (that take like an hour or more to judge) So i apologize if my reasoning was not up to par, But i assure you even when i read through this a while ago That was my outcome, U_U you may go ahead and call me biased though, as that would most likely grant you the win, most people do not judge the same way i do...

 

[~Puppet Master~]

First off, myself personally has doubts that the 3rd Can even control anything besides the iron sand (as their were metal projectiles all over the battlefield during his fight with sakura)

It's a manga fact, not up for debate...

Spoiler

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[Zexion~]

It's a manga fact, not up for debate...

Spoiler

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Your point other things are said in the manga that simply are not true ..Anyways there was also the fact that the sword of Kusanagi might not even be made of iron or steel, but relax thats not a reason as to why you lost i said i was on the edge for it

 

[Zexion~]

What the **** did i do

Just read it over and indeed have no clue what i did U_U i was pretty ****ed up last night. I'm going to find two more judges for you as mine was clearly awful, i apologize to both teams

 

[~Puppet Master~]

What the **** did i do

Just read it over and indeed have no clue what i did U_U i was pretty ****ed up last night. I'm going to find two more judges for you as mine was clearly awful, i apologize to both teams

Oh you dawg (¬‿¬)