NB Team Debate League Round 2: Susano'o vs (¬‿¬)

EliteKakashi · Jul 14, 2013

Did we get an extension? Our 72 hours are up.

Zexion~ · Jul 14, 2013

i have it all ready .. just waiting for team too come on and add input .. which took you guys forever so dont complain -.-

EliteKakashi · Jul 14, 2013

Zexion~ said:
i have it all ready .. just waiting for team too come on and add input .. which took you guys forever so dont complain -.-

I'm not complaining, lol.

Just asking a question. I didn't blame either side, both of our sides took a long time to post..note why I said did "we" receive an extension, and "our" 72 hours are up.

Zexion~ · Jul 14, 2013

Firstly i would like to totally and completely negate your way of Jiraiya activating Sage Mode. Naruto CAN NOT Summon Ma and Pa for jiriaya, the only one who can summon them is Jiraiya.

You must be registered for see links

,Naruto has never shown to do this NOR has he even shown that he has knowledge of this, and dont act like Jiraiya can simply tell him because he still has no clue the shape the shading has to be in, and no way he has the time to figure it out in this battle. So basically all your arguments involving SM jiraiya are now invalid .. due to the fact that you have not given a valid reason on how SM is achieved.

Also Deidara does not even need to prep a clay bird As you can see Onoki need only touch Deidara for him to be able to use the flight technique for an UN-SPECIFIED amount of time,

You must be registered for see links

meaning he can fly whether he has his clay bird or not .. So jiraiya would never even get the chance to trap Deidara in a Swamp. Also if this method of the technique does indeed run out after a certain time .. Deidara can simply prep a Clay bird mid air and catch himself with it,thats IF this fight even continues that long.

Those scans you provided of Deidara's c1 bombs do not help back up your claim in the slightest, you are trying to make a case for Naruto's durability being able to tank the c1's yet the scans you provided show that Sasuke used Speed to escape the blast. Your third scan even proves it

You must be registered for see links

"His movements are too fast" Meaning his speed was able to escape the radius..again Deidara said c1 saved him because he knows that he is quick enough to avoid c1's blast radius .. Nothing suggests that the impact the explosions carry is at all weak. And while i commend you bringing up Naruto's enhanced healing it simply does not apply here, the two ways Explosions damage you are by burning your body severely, and Blowing apart limbs..The first is obvious and the latter is proved here

You must be registered for see links

-

You must be registered for see links

Do i really need to get a scan of what happened to Hidan? and the healing process has already shown that it does not react well to burns (although notice he was still alive A.K.A allowing him to be captured)

You must be registered for see links

, and its obvious it cant recover from lost limbs .. its not Byakugo, so the healing that Naruto possesses is not going to help him in this fight

Also not everyone is able to analyze Sasuke's speed ..

You must be registered for see links

notice Sakura had no clue what just happened .. and she is actually a decent analyst.

As i said jiraiya is not in sage mode so your point on Jiraiya using leg strength to escape moving earth core is invalid, and i have no clue how using Earth Swamp on the bottom of the area that was affected by the core would help him at all ..And by the time Jiraiya would try to use earth swamp on Onoki to prevent the jutsu, it would of already happened and onoki would of been back in the air ..its a jutsu quickly used, as to your other counters again jiraiya is not in SM .. So him using all those techniques is not happening .. Although i do think he escape without SM .. He would be a sitting duck for a jinton while he's jumping or escaping via summon.

Don't underestimate the speed of Jinton .. It takes a few second at most to prep .. and then its speed when being used is incredible

You must be registered for see links

and in the time it takes for Jiraiya to summon .. jinton would of been prepped already so he and his summons still get obliterated, and the summons would not simply disperse away from the battle leaving Jiraiya to fend on his own, his summons would only de-summon them selves if told too by Jiraiya .. Even if they were to de-summon would would that do? Jiriaya would still be struck by the Jinton seeing as he is still stuck in the Moving Core.. You did not counter Solo's point at all

Also as ive proven before Deidara would already be in the air due to the flight technique, and i see no reason as to why he can't create the dragon mid flight especially in a levitation position high above the ground...not only would they have to avoid Deidara's c2 dragon .. but dediara can leave the dragon and fly around causing his own problems .. and activating the dragon from a distance (it was shown he can still control his Bombs used for flight pretty accurately

You must be registered for see links

-

You must be registered for see links

, while throwing his own c1 bombs into the fray causing Naruto in Jiraiya to be surrounded by 3 opponents that can fly and attack, Toad flame bullet would not come close to hitting deidara nor the dragon .. Katons are alot easier to dodge in the air.. where they have nothing to spread to, the flame would quickly die out and i doubt it would even reach C2 dragon , not to mention the dragon would have enough time to avoid it meanwhile while Jiraiya is busy utilizing the flame bullet Deidara would hit him with a C1 to the face

You must be registered for see links

although technically Jiraiya should be still dealing with Onoki in the mobile core as you never validly explained how he got out Using hair to catch the dragon is laughable .. its mouth would still be able to launch missiles, that would be extensively hard to avoid seeing as Jiraiya's hair would be around the dragon ... preventing him from escaping. Again your SM counters are invalid. You also never really said how NARUTO counters the c2 .. even though Solo stated it would be used against Naruto .. not Jiraiya

You basically proved Solo right in his rock clones point .. He said they would be used as a distraction leading to the capture of naruto.. and you say that Naruto and Jiraiya would simply engage them in CQC.. leaving them wide open for a jinton ( on Jiraiya) and a C2 on Naruto or ultra weight technique .. Successfully capturing the nine tails and killing
The toad sage

Let's not forget that Jiraiya is in this fight too, he's hardly going to allow both Onoki and Deidara to back Naruto in a corner. Deidara's would have enough to worry about with Gamabunta and/or Jiraiya on his ass.

Well Seeing as how i stated that the C2 dragon would be activating on its own so It could be Onoki and the dragon backing Naruto in a corner which would no doubt lead to the capture of Naruto while Jiraiya is being distracted with by a flying Deidara, You rely way to much on summons also they were taken out by simply ONE ST

You must be registered for see links

, their durability is not all that great and their big size makes them easy pickings for the C2 Dragon, also particle style has no problem hitting a moving target have no clue where you got that from .. its speed when used makes it hard to avoid

You must be registered for see images

you clearly are mistaken he notes that pain is using the manipulation of gravity to help him fly and avoid the attacks .. which is exactly the same thing Onoki and Deidara will be doing .. so that really just helps our argument that Yes indeed the boss toads have problems hitting small targets.

In Summary

Ways Naruto Is Captured

-C2 Missiles pack enough burning powers and may also get rid of some limbs Which it has already shown to do

You must be registered for see links

that it would be a viable way to bring Naruto down with him still being alive
-Onoki's Ultra heavy Technique .. Having to deal with 3 fighters in the air (Dei.onoki, and The Dragon) While also engaging clones in CQC ( like you said) Could leave naruto wide open for Onoki to use this jutsu even with his enhanced reflexes its just simply too much

How to deal With Jiraiya

-Using Earth mobile core followed up by a direct shot from Jinton which your team has yet to posta viable counter for would obliterate Jiraiya
-A c1 spider to the face while hes using toad flame bombs which you said he indeed would .. (Although this is a pretty specific way)
-Being blown up by a C2 Missile while trying to capture the dragon with his eye .. which again you said he would
Basically Deidara's bombs have enough variety to kill him numerous ways .. adding in the ability of Jinton simply makes it easier

Anub · Jul 14, 2013

This should have been closed a while ago. I'll check later. I was hoping someone would notice.

EDIT: Yes, this should have closed about 12 hours ago. You've also got an extension on your opening, I believe another extension would be asking for too much.

Edo Odin · Jul 14, 2013

Me and Zexion had agreed on allowing each team to make one more post, but if the extension will not be granted, of course it is understandable. If it is however, I'll try to get to my post as soon as I can.

KidGamer65 · Jul 14, 2013

Anub said:
This should have been closed a while ago. I'll check later. I was hoping someone would notice.

EDIT: Yes, this should have closed about 12 hours ago. You've also got an extension on your opening, I believe another extension would be asking for too much.

So based on your post I assume that Zexion's post is the last one for this match.

OnPoint · Jul 14, 2013

I don't think you can really judge with two posts only. Furthermore, I thought the opening team was not allowed to be the closing one?

Anub · Jul 14, 2013

Either zexion's post counts and because they got an extension for the opening and and extension for posting way too late, the opposition is allowed another argument.

OR

zexion's post is invalid (as the rules indicate) and this tourney is ready to go to the judges.

Edo Odin · Jul 14, 2013

KidGamer65 said:
So based on your post I assume that Zexion's post is the last one for this match.

That would mean that your team got an extension twice, while we got none..It's simply not logical.

In any case, I'll leave the decision to Anub and the rest. If they decide that the extension is granted, I'll make my post soon, if not, then Zexion's post will simply not count. It would be ridiculous if you got to make the opening post, and the closing post, especially in a debate where the posts are so few.

KidGamer65 · Jul 14, 2013

-6 Paths- said:
That would mean that your team got an extension twice, while we got none..It's simply not logical.

In any case, I'll leave the decision to Anub and the rest. If they decide that the extension is granted, I'll make my post soon, if not, then Zexion's post will simply not count. It would be ridiculous if you got to make the opening post, and the closing post, especially in a debate where the posts are so few.

Yeah, I know its illogical, so I was wondering what Anub's was going to suggest we do.

Edo Odin · Jul 14, 2013

KidGamer65 said:
Yeah, I know its illogical, so I was wondering what Anub's was going to suggest we do.

Ah, I see.

Since that is the case, we'll choose to make one last post.

Fresco · Jul 14, 2013

Eh, I wouldn't mind for an extension as long as we get to make the final post. I wouldn't want Zexion's post to go to waste given we did consume a lot of time making our own.

KidGamer65 · Jul 14, 2013

-6 Paths- said:
Ah, I see.

Since that is the case, we'll choose to make one last post.

Yeah. I should have worded my post better.

@Anub: I also agree with the extension.

Anub · Jul 14, 2013

Very well. See that their team leader agrees as well and start working on the counter. Please do it within a reasonable amount of time.

EliteKakashi · Jul 14, 2013

Barring some unforeseen delay, I should have the post up sometime tonight.

EliteKakashi · Jul 15, 2013

Firstly i would like to totally and completely negate your way of Jiraiya activating Sage Mode. Naruto CAN NOT Summon Ma and Pa for jiriaya, the only one who can summon them is Jiraiya. (1),Naruto has never shown to do this NOR has he even shown that he has knowledge of this, and dont act like Jiraiya can simply tell him because he still has no clue the shape the shading has to be in, and no way he has the time to figure it out in this battle. So basically all your arguments involving SM jiraiya are now invalid .. due to the fact that you have not given a valid reason on how SM is achieved.

Are you serious? Naruto can't summon Fukasaku and Shima? It's quite obvious he can. He signed the contract, which in Viktor's post, he included the scan that states you enter a contract with every toad. Jiraiya is not the only person to have summoned Fukasaku and Shima, either. In regards to the shape/shading of the summoning contract, first of all as pointed out in the scan that Viktor provided, the method Jiraiya used simply took the place of a blood contract

You must be registered for see links

, and two Shima summoned everyone without the use of any lines, including Fukasaku to Konoha

You must be registered for see links

. The contract obviously binds the two of them, meaning he could summon her as well On top of this, Minato has apparently done it too, noted by Bunta asking Fukasaku if he noted the resemblance between Jiraiya/Minato and Naruto.

You must be registered for see links

as Fukasaku stated “he's surpassed both of the previous generations”, meaning he's been around Minato enough to have a judgement on his power. Naruto has become a Perfect Toad Sage, the highest honor/ability one can receive from Mount Myoboku, has trained vigorously alongside both Fukasaku and Shima, and fought alongside them in battle, and he's also been noted as the “prodigcal son”. There's absolutely 0 reason to believe anything other than he has the ability to summon them. The databook page you linked to says nothing about Jiraiya being the only one able to summon them.

To further drive home the point that Jiraiya being the only one capable of it is wrong, here is the databook quote on Fukasaku:

The Sacred Mountain where numerous Toads are assembled. In Myoubokuzan (Mt. Myouboku), he is one of the Two Great Toad Sages, second in status to the Grand Toad Hermit. He is also a teacher to Jiraiya, from the Sannin. The one who personally pounded the power of the Toads and Senjutsu into him. Trained up in the use of chakra in symbiosis with Nature, this 800 year-old doesn't know decline. His demeanor gives out a sense of magnificence, and the Toads under his command hold him in great esteem, calling him the "Boss". Because the number of people who summon him is extremely limited, he doesn't take an active part in conflicts, but the one times when he does proceed onto the battlefield, he will let out his out-of-this-world jutsu, as so many miracles!!

The arguments involving SM Jiraiya are perfectly valid. Saying Naruto, a perfect Toad Sage can't summon them is the only thing that's invalid in this paragraph.

Also Deidara does not even need to prep a clay bird As you can see Onoki need only touch Deidara for him to be able to use the flight technique for an UN-SPECIFIED amount of time,(2) meaning he can fly whether he has his clay bird or not .. So jiraiya would never even get the chance to trap Deidara in a Swamp. Also if this method of the technique does indeed run out after a certain time .. Deidara can simply prep a Clay bird mid air and catch himself with it,thats IF this fight even continues that long.

The issue with Onoki granting people flight is that it appears it's something he's only able to do with people who have trained to be able to handle flying by themselves. As you noted, he granted flight to his bodyguards, however when with Ei, he held him in the air rather than granting him flight

You must be registered for see links

, and despite being in a dire situation, he never once gave any of the other Gokage the ability of flight, at any point in the fight. The evidence seems to clearly point to him not being able to give just any random person that ability. Plus.. going off of the WRONG assumption that he can give it anyone...if he didn't feel the need to give the ability to any of the other kage when fighting Edo Madara's perfect susanoo, why would he feel the need to give it to Deidara?

Those scans you provided of Deidara's c1 bombs do not help back up your claim in the slightest, you are trying to make a case for Naruto's durability being able to tank the c1's yet the scans you provided show that Sasuke used Speed to escape the blast. Your third scan even proves it (3) "His movements are too fast" Meaning his speed was able to escape the radius..again Deidara said c1 saved him because he knows that he is quick enough to avoid c1's blast radius .. Nothing suggests that the impact the explosions carry is at all weak. And while i commend you bringing up Naruto's enhanced healing it simply does not apply here, the two ways Explosions damage you are by burning your body severely, and Blowing apart limbs..The first is obvious and the latter is proved here (4) -(5) Do i really need to get a scan of what happened to Hidan? and the healing process has already shown that it does not react well to burns (although notice he was still alive A.K.A allowing him to be captured)(6), and its obvious it cant recover from lost limbs .. its not Byakugo, so the healing that Naruto possesses is not going to help him in this fight

Of course Sasuke wanted to use his speed to escape the blast. Just because you're able to take the hit doesn't mean you actually want to take it. And comparing the explosion used on Hidan to the one Deidara would use doesn't work..because even when the explosives were inside of Gaara's sand dome protection, they didn't blow off any of his limbs or even appear to harm him all that badly. He passed out due to his chakra getting low on top of tanking the explosion. You can also argue that explosion was even worse on Gaara than it would be on Naruto considering it was in a confined space, no where for the explosion to disperse to.

On top of this, Sasuke was able to tank a pretty large explosion prior to it harming his wings.

You must be registered for see links

Deidara goes on to say that he avoided it by flying upwards, but that explanation makes no sense considering the ground below Sasuke was untouched, meaning he simply used his CS2 wings to cover himself/the ground below him as well.

You must be registered for see links

.

Also not everyone is able to analyze Sasuke's speed .. (7) notice Sakura had no clue what just happened .. and she is actually a decent analyst.

As i said jiraiya is not in sage mode so your point on Jiraiya using leg strength to escape moving earth core is invalid, and i have no clue how using Earth Swamp on the bottom of the area that was affected by the core would help him at all ..And by the time Jiraiya would try to use earth swamp on Onoki to prevent the jutsu, it would of already happened and onoki would of been back in the air ..its a jutsu quickly used, as to your other counters again jiraiya is not in SM .. So him using all those techniques is not happening .. Although i do think he escape without SM .. He would be a sitting duck for a jinton while he's jumping or escaping via summon.

How is Sakura not being able to analyze his speed relevant? First of all, it's a beginning of shippuden Sakura, who has yet to hone any of her abilities to perfection or show any impressive feats regarding speed, whether it be speed of her own or tracking a fast ninja. It's also worth noting that even 176 chapters later, she still has issues being around Sasuke in regards to freezing up, even when her life depended on it.

You must be registered for see links

It's also important to note, even Second of all, it happened prior to Deidara analyzing his speed, so we've seen it's possible( we even see it's possible in that chapter you linked us to, which I will note in just a second..). Third of all, Naruto and Sakura were still in a daze from seeing Sasuke for the first time since he left the village. Fourth of all, Yamato was capable of seeing him perform his “lunge” towards Naruto.

You must be registered for see links

, Fifth of all, the likely reason that Sakura couldn't see him, and Naruto couldn't react is because none of their senses were on par with their regular selves, noted by Sai easily being able to intercept Sasuke's attempt at killing Naruto

You must be registered for see links

, yet Naruto taking no stance or making any attempt to defend himself.

I have several issues with the earth movement being some kind of possible endgame for Jiraiya.

1. We've already cleared that Jiraiya can easily enter SM, and on top of that, the idea behind using the earth swamp is to negate Onoki/or at least slow down his attempt at raising the earth. And you claim that it would take Jiraiya too long to do this, yet a drugged Jiraiya was capalbe of performing the technique at a near-instant speed

You must be registered for see links

. It's also important to note that Jiraiya called that a SMALL swamp

You must be registered for see links

, showing his ability to use it when 100% healthy would be quite incredible.

2. There's several ways that Jiraiya could deal with the explosives from Deidara at the same time. One is having Fukasaku deal with them with his powerful futon

You must be registered for see links

, as it's been shown he can still turn around when connected to Jiraiya

You must be registered for see links

, two is having Jiraiya simply evade it with his incredible SM speed

You must be registered for see links

, three is having Jiraiya use his hair needles to trigger each of the explosions while they're still headed towards him

You must be registered for see links

.

A sitting duck for a long ranged Jinton when it's already been proven that a point blank one isn't even able to kill someone before they can escape? I don't think so.

Don't underestimate the speed of Jinton .. It takes a few second at most to prep .. and then its speed when being used is incredible (8) and in the time it takes for Jiraiya to summon .. jinton would of been prepped already so he and his summons still get obliterated, and the summons would not simply disperse away from the battle leaving Jiraiya to fend on his own, his summons would only de-summon them selves if told too by Jiraiya .. Even if they were to de-summon would would that do? Jiriaya would still be struck by the Jinton seeing as he is still stuck in the Moving Core.. You did not counter Solo's point at all

Is there a reason you're using Onoki's large jinton feats, given it's restricted? The speed of his regular jinton has been documented well in regards to how long it takes to activate, but to drive the point even further, even though he was in point blank range vs Sasuke, Obito had enough time to warp to Sasuke, materialize to touch him, then escape the jinton.

You must be registered for see links

Obito's warp takes some time to complete, it's no where near instant, as noted by these scans vs Minato

You must be registered for see links

and these vs Naruto

You must be registered for see links

. Despite Tobi already having his hand on Naruto(and boldly trying to state “when I touch you with this hand, I win), he was not able to warp him before Kakashi, with just his base speed(which, important to note in this comparison, is the exact same in the databook as base Jiraiya, 4.5), was able to intervene, alongside Gai.

If Onoki isn't capable of finishing someone off quickly enough at point blank range, what reason do I have to believe from long range, when Jiraiya can see he's preparing to use it, that Jiraiya can't avoid it?

Also as ive proven before Deidara would already be in the air due to the flight technique, and i see no reason as to why he can't create the dragon mid flight especially in a levitation position high above the ground...not only would they have to avoid Deidara's c2 dragon .. but dediara can leave the dragon and fly around causing his own problems .. and activating the dragon from a distance (it was shown he can still control his Bombs used for flight pretty accurately (9)-(10) , while throwing his own c1 bombs into the fray causing Naruto in Jiraiya to be surrounded by 3 opponents that can fly and attack, Toad flame bullet would not come close to hitting deidara nor the dragon .. Katons are alot easier to dodge in the air.. where they have nothing to spread to, the flame would quickly die out and i doubt it would even reach C2 dragon , not to mention the dragon would have enough time to avoid it meanwhile while Jiraiya is busy utilizing the flame bullet Deidara would hit him with a C1 to the face (11) although technically Jiraiya should be still dealing with Onoki in the mobile core as you never validly explained how he got out Using hair to catch the dragon is laughable .. its mouth would still be able to launch missiles, that would be extensively hard to avoid seeing as Jiraiya's hair would be around the dragon ... preventing him from escaping. Again your SM counters are invalid. You also never really said how NARUTO counters the c2 .. even though Solo stated it would be used against Naruto .. not Jiraiya

I've already proven that the flight technique is not something Onoki would use on Deidara, nor is it something Deidara would be capable of pulling off right away. That nullifies the “3 opponents in flight” and controlling his dragon without him on it, as he will need to be on it if he plans to be in the air. Given toad flame bullet is performed with Bunta, he can jump in to the air and perform it if he feels that Deidara is quick enough to fly away from him performing it on the ground.

In regards to Jiraiya's hair trapping the dragon, in order to avoid it shooting anything from it's mouth, he can simply destroy it

You must be registered for see links

. The SM argument is proven to be perfectly valid.

You basically proved Solo right in his rock clones point .. He said they would be used as a distraction leading to the capture of naruto.. and you say that Naruto and Jiraiya would simply engage them in CQC.. leaving them wide open for a jinton ( on Jiraiya) and a C2 on Naruto or ultra weight technique .. Successfully capturing the nine tails and killing The toad sage

There's several problems with this point: 1,It's not much of a distraction when the power of SM would give them the ability to destroy the rock clones almost instantaneously if they were to engage them. 2. Naruto could deal with any number of rock clones by the sheer number of Sage Mode clones he's capable of making

You must be registered for see links

. 3. We've proven that Onoki cannot use jinton fast enough for this to be of any worry to them anyway, if Naruto decided for whatever reason to be an idiot and not engage the clones with clones of his own.

Even with all of your points being pretty much wrong, I think the thing that irritated me the most about this post is the fact that you pretty much completely ignored Naruto. Onoki and Deidara plan on ganging up on Jiraiya without Naruto intervening? What are they going to do if Naruto uses his improve Futon Rasenshuriken?

You must be registered for see links

Or what are they going to do if Naruto decides to pummel them with his Sage Art Non-stop Gargantuan Rasengan Barage?

You must be registered for see links

So many Odoma rasengans it covered the entire length of Kurama, so when spread out they would have no way of simply dodging, and if they attempted to retaliate by attack, they would be turning their backs to Jiraiya..and I've already went over so many ways Jiraiya could hit them going from his Toad Oil Flame Bullet that Gamabunta can jump in to the air and allow him to use against his flying opponents(and like Naruto's rasengan barrage, I dunno how you expect them to be quick enough to avoid an attack with this kind of range

You must be registered for see links

), to using his combined futon/katon/oil attack with Fukasaku and Shima, or with an Odama rasengan of his own to one of their backs, and the list goes on and on and on.

I think you've admitted and I've proved in this single post that Jiraiya alone(when given Fukasaku and Shima from Naruto to quickly enter SM with) is enough to cause Onoki and Deidara a LOT of problems. When you add in another Toad Sage who has feats that Onoki and Deidara would have a ton of problems avoiding without opening themselves up to being hit by Jiraiya as well, there's not much chance for them to win this fight. But, I mean, at least you guys get an A for effort, right?

Solo · Jul 15, 2013

I guess that's it, eh?

Well.. Good luck guys.

EliteKakashi · Jul 15, 2013

Solo said:
I guess that's it, eh?

Well.. Good luck guys.

Indeed.

Good luck as well.

xxSasukEkUnxX · Jul 15, 2013

This is a stacked matchup. The sages have no flight options and gamabunta is not sky level, not even close, and there is a limit to where he can jump. The only offense they have is Naruto's rasengans that he used on Yang Kurama and jump combos with Gamabunta and Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken.

NB Team Debate League Round 2: Susano'o vs (¬‿¬)

Anbu Operative 🎭

Kage in the Making 👑

Anbu Operative 🎭

Kage in the Making 👑

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Banned

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Anbu Operative 🎭

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Banned

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Banned

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Anbu Operative 🎭

Anbu Operative 🎭

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Anbu Operative 🎭

Banned