Naruto without Kurama

[shadowcb]

I agree with out except for the Shadow Clones... Remember he had to resort to that because he had Kurama (well maybe thats not entirely true) He took the scroll from a traitor but he read it because he was useless and couldnt do anything except taijutsu.

So if the circumstances were changed, he would probably use ninjutsu to stop that guy from stealing the scroll. The only way at that point of learning Shadow Clones is if he STILL read the scroll, I mean he is a kid afterall and kids tend to get naughty.

But since at this point he KNOWS that hes the son of a hokage, I dont think hed risk destroying his image and probably give the scroll back to Iruka without reading it.

So less training on taijutsu and possibly NO shadow clones (perhaps a different kind of clones probably cant spam it though)

Naruto still possess alot of chakra without Kurama and Jiraiya and Minato knows the shadow clone jutsu. So it's possible if they were alive they could have taught him that jutsu.

 

[wanderingcactus]

I found Naruto potential to SM to be very interesting.

1 - Naruto was learning to increase his SM time limit. When he fought Pain he was limited to 5 minutes or 2 FRS. During the war Naruto could use 3 FRS before he ran out of SM chakra. That would mean his time limit should have increased to about 7 1/2 minute. Right before Madara gained his real body was created the biggest SM FRS and he didn't run out of SM chakra -

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- That FRS had to be equal to at least 10 FRS. Yes, I know it's possible the shadow clone were using their chakra too, but that still a big jutsu. Base off that Naruto time limit should have increased to at least 20 minutes.

2 - Before Naruto fought Pain he was learning to gather natural energy and active SM while moving -

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- If Naruto ever perfected that he wouldn't need toads or have to worry about SM risk. I would have loved to seen that.

Good find except for the Shadow Clones.

The reason why it was forbidden in the first place is that the person is actually splitting instead of creating a "sub"

So his chakra would be split 1/2 if he created a clone. then 1/3 each if he created 2 clones.. so on and so forth.

This way others cannot distinguish which one is the real/fake and the only way to find out is by eliminating them (either killing or chakra exhaustion)

At least thats how I understood it. I'll definitely have to consult the data book on that one

 

[wanderingcactus]

Naruto still possess alot of chakra without Kurama and Jiraiya and Minato knows the shadow clone jutsu. So it's possible if they were alive they could have taught him that jutsu.

Thats true. So either way, it'll all end up the same way then even without their tragic past.

Actually theyll have more techs. Naruto would have a chance to learn fuinjutsu and FTG and other techs without ever having to deal with Kurama messing up his chakra control.

Sasuke would probably stick around and train with Itachi and Kakashi more and learn more that way instead of going on an adventure chasing Itachi and selling his body to Orochimaru being a who re and what not.

 

[Jokule67]

yes but I said all the way to god-tier...

Obviously theyll reach that no matter what. That's just plot for you. No matter what they do theyll have to fight as they are the transmigrants.

Im saying everything later would be the same, just their upbringings would be different.

Madara would still try to take over the world. Hed use Nagato to attack Konoha (still would get TnJ-ed to bits)

Tobi would be MIA (lets speculate that he was defeated on his plan on Konoha)

So im saying with different upbringings, would they be stronger,weaker or on the same pace?

No massacre means Sasuke also stayed with Team 7 and Itachi wouldnt have been a deserter/fugitive.

You think without their struggle and tragic past, theyll be weaker? Exclude kurama and EMS handouts (lets just say that they still get it no matter what. Like Kushina passing it on to Naruto when hes ready for it and Itachi sacrificing himself and giving EMS to Sasuke and thats when Sasuke turns emo because of some BS like Naruto couldnt save Itachi so he must die or something)

So in the end they get all the buffs and handouts even the seals. Im just talking about solely if you take everything that had happen when they were still a child, would they be better than their current selves, worse or on the same pace?

I'd say they'll probably be better. They'll achieve everything faster as they have better guidance and develop more arsenal.

Also their time wouldnt have been wasted trying to run away/chase each other.

Everything in the end cant be the same becuz the past events are what lead to Naruto becoming a psuedo juubi jin and Sasuke getting Rinnegan.


But to look from your point of view Naruto would be more versatile. I dont know about better off though.

 

[shadowcb]

Good find except for the Shadow Clones.

The reason why it was forbidden in the first place is that the person is actually splitting instead of creating a "sub"

So his chakra would be split 1/2 if he created a clone. then 1/3 each if he created 2 clones.. so on and so forth.

This way others cannot distinguish which one is the real/fake and the only way to find out is by eliminating them (either killing or chakra exhaustion)

At least thats how I understood it. I'll definitely have to consult the data book on that one

You are right, it does evenly divide chakra between the main body and clones. 2nd hokage explanation of the jutsu explains the jutsu true benefits. He stated the chakra between the main body and all of the clones are linked together -

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- I believe that means 2 things.

1 - When the jutsu ends whatever amount of chakra that's left returns to the main body and/or remaining clones. That would explain why the user gains knowledge from the clones.

2 - The main body or clones can give chakra to each other as needed. IE: If a clones is running low on chakra the main body or clone can give that clone more chakra. It's like how Kurama was able to give Naruto's clone more chakra even though Kurama was in Naruto's main body -

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I would have liked to have seen more of that ability.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Everything in the end cant be the same becuz the past events are what lead to Naruto becoming a psuedo juubi jin and Sasuke getting Rinnegan.


But to look from your point of view Naruto would be more versatile. I dont know about better off though.

well versatility and having parents seems pretty good to me.

Also if youre not a shitty writer like kishi, you can always find a way to bring circumstances on to the same track.

like say Naruto didnt gain Kurama's help until the war arc, right?

Ok. Have Naruto train and grow up under Jman and Minato until hes strong and old enough to handle Kurama. Kushina in the meantime would teach Naruto fuinjutsu to better control Kurama (I mean Minato can control Yin Kurama from the get go so befriending him doesnt really matter). Once Naruto is up for the task, he can take control of Kurama and become jin (he has better chances now since hes more experienced)

Sasuke on the otherhand, would still have to take Itachi's eyes to get EMS. Well we all know that Itachi has a disease so thats one way to obtain it without any blood spilling. Also since Itachi wont be straining himself physically by running away (might still become an undercover Akatsuki member though) he'd have more time to teach Sasuke how to solo.

Also, you have Kakashi to train him as well, which was Itachi's superior. As Sasuke wont be a deserter, Kakashi could've taught him more.

So obtaining EMS and Kurama is still plausable in this scenario. About the seals and having to talk to Hagoromo and the whole war arc, that's still plausable.

The only thing that was changed was Tobi was stopped with his invasion.

The plan was to have Nagato bring Madara back in the first place. So Madara obviously would do everything that Tobi did at this point. He'd have BZ manipulate Nagato into casting rinne tensei to bring himself back.

I dont think that its far fetched to have a different past but still end up in the same situation.

 

[wanderingcactus]

You are right, it does evenly divide chakra between the main body and clones. 2nd hokage explanation of the jutsu explains the jutsu true benefits. He stated the chakra between the main body and all of the clones are linked together -

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- I believe that means 2 things.

1 - When the jutsu ends whatever amount of chakra that's left returns to the main body and/or remaining clones. That would explain why the user gains knowledge from the clones.

2 - The main body or clones can give chakra to each other as needed. IE: If a clones is running low on chakra the main body or clone can give that clone more chakra. It's like how Kurama was able to give Naruto's clone more chakra even though Kurama was in Naruto's main body -

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I would have liked to have seen more of that ability.

Didnt he use that ability when he was fighting Pein?

He had 3 clones collect natural energy and he'd summon them to his place and once the clone poofs away, hed have the sage mode active on his main body.

If Naruto can make a bazillion clones with massive mega rasengan barrage, I cant imagine how much his chakra is let alone combine with the 2nd biggest and baddest tailed beast.

 

[take it easy]

Without Kurama Naruto would be strongest genin.

 

[Uzumaki Death god]

then there would be ni manga to talk about in the first place

 

[SenseiSama]

you may have misread.. Im only talking about Naruto's chakra at this point. No Kurama.

Yes his chakra is massive and youre right about the stamina thing.

I bet hed have the same circumstance as Ashura (I dont think Ashura had any bijuus with him when he fought Indra. Dunno, maybe he did.)

So you dont think it wouldve made any difference when it comes to chakra control if he wasnt Kurama's jin?

Not at all, chakra control isn't dependent on the bijuu, without Kurama he still would have still learned Rasengan and RS. His Sage Mode would still make him god tier like Hashirama because he's Ashura's transmigrant. Mastery over NE and healing are Ashura's feats, those would have been Naruto's with or without Kurama.

 

[Sasuke tyeezy]

So lots have been saying that everything great about Naruto is solely due to Kurama (mostly Sasuke fappers)

They back it up with "oh Kurama saved Naruto from being fatally injured/killed multiple times" which is correct.

However I'm completely baffled by the fact that when they get hit in the face with "yeah its also Kurama's fault" they just neglect that fact and go straight to fapping and abandoning all logic.

So with that said.. How is it so hard for people to get the idea that Naruto wouldve easily been the greatest ninja of his generation without Kurama?

Kurama has been an antagonist a loooooong loooong time ago like thats how the whole series started ~ with the demon fox. Hey only until recently when that all switch over and Naruto finally got Kurama to stop resisting him (real case of Stockholm syndrome I'd say)

So why is it not plausable/illogical to think that Naruto would NOT be a failure if Kurama wasnt in him?

Say Kushina didnt die. Itachi didnt go through with the whole Uchiha murder and told 3rd about Tobi's plan about releasing the demon fox from Kushina and everything was prevented.

Kushina is still jin, Minato is still alive and doing his job as 4th, Naruto isnt shunned by everyone and perhaps loved by the entire village.

We'd see Naruto controlling his chakra even better (considering that he had to control Kurama's chakra while still a kid and Kurama fighting back this is still prominent all the way to war arc ~ confirmed all the way to Pein arc when trying Sage mode)

Perhaps he wouldnt have learned Shadow Clones but he wouldve learned Minato's tech and Uzumaki clan fuinjustus. Still proabably trained under Jman to get Sage mode.

Sasuke's main motivation at that point would be to be on Naruto's level in which I would think it isnt farfetched that Itachi would be the one teaching him/Team 7 instead of Kakashi.

Sasuke's motivation was to always be on Itachi's level. He probably wouldn't care about Naruto.

 

[Exaar]

Without Kurama he would've been killed by Haku at the very beginning

Without him he would be long dead back in his fight against Sasuke

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Without Kurama, Naruto and sasuke would never of made it to fight at VOTE 1 in the first place. Both would have more than likely died in the bridge fight with haku.

 

[shelke]

He would have been killed by Orochimaru in Part I alone. Get over it already. The kid is nothing special without Kurama.

He's Ashura's transmigrant, without Kurama the author would have given him another power-up that is more natural like Mokuton. And his Sage Mode was already strong enough to fight 1v1 against the strongest bijuu even though he was only 15.

During the time he was unlocking KCM the author hinted that SM Naruto would have been on Hashi's level without Kurama, that means that BSM Naruto would have surpassed Hashirama like EMS Sasuke surpassing Madara since Yin = Yang.

Hashirama had more chakra than BM Naruto was putting out. Seriously, are you joking?

 

[SUPERDEADLYKING]

kurama has helped him trough the bad times a lot. Though he had to be really skilled to control its power which he did. Naruto = team worker, sasuke = more introverted, Both rock

 

[unknownvillain1254]

I don't think he would, as you said he had huge amounts of chakra, what Naruto lacked was the ability to focus the chakra because it requires stamina as Kakashi stated in part 1.

Logically the more chakra you have the more stamina is required to focus it, so he had to train his stamina first, and the amount of stamina you gain is limited by age, so even with a lot of training he wouldn't have gained a higher level of chakra control than what we saw in part 1 because his body was not yet physically developed enough.

If you noticed he still wasn't able to use a one handed Rasengan until the end of VoTE 2, he had to wait the entire manga to gain full control over his and Kurama's chakra.



Unfortunately there wasn't another way of gaining full control of the bijuu's power, his seal was starting to break and he had to make a new one to prevent his body from being taken over. In order to make a new one he had to tame Kurama first by fighting him.

Your stamina is your chakra

 

[Nick01]

Now people are using the Plot excuse. Plot saved poor Sasuke from Itachi in the Massacre.

Without Kurama Naruto would've negged Haku and Sasuke. Oro would still probably beat him.

People just seem retarded when they use the "without Kurama" excuse, actually thinking everything else in the story would remain unchanged. The 3 years Naruto spent with Jiraiya were mainly used to try to control the Nine tails power, since he wouldn't have Kurama, those 3 years would be better spent learning, creating new jutsu.
Some people just don't have common sense smh.

 

[SenseiSama]

I stopped reading there. You obviously have no idea who Hashi is

Yeah I do, he's not the child of prophecy

 

[SenseiSama]

Your stamina is your chakra

No, stamina is separate from chakra. It comes from physical energy while chakra is a combination of physical energy and spiritual energy

 

[LoZelda101]

Without Kurama he would've been killed by Haku at the very beginning

defeated not killed.

 

[Deadlift]

defeated not killed.

Mmmhh don't be that sure. his wounds would have drown him out of blood without the regenerative power of Kurama. Otherwise, if Haku defeated Naruto without killing him, Zabuza would have ordered to him to kill the latter, and Haku would have obeyed regardless.