Naruto without Kurama

[ItachiDaSoloKing]

I mightve open a can of worms here.

they do have a point when they bring up the massacre and kurama ordeal making them stronger but I'd also like to think about the other route.

Thats why I brought this thread up in the 1st place.

So as stated before, Tobi was stopped right there and then and Itachi never massacred anybody and everything is great. The hate on the village and Uchiha had finally subsided.

So, youd have Naruto with no Kurama to hold him back and get him killed as much as possible. Naruto would have his parents and obviously be beloved by all since hes the son of the hokage.

Itachi wouldnt have turned rogue and be there for Sasuke. Sasuke would probably be taken under Itachi's wing in some point.

So I dont really think taking out the massacre/kurama out of the equation makes them less stronger than what they were at that point. Id say they might even be better off.

They probably have more arsenal to defeat Pein.

Certainly Naruto would ( possible that he wont have Shadow Clones) also Team 7 wouldnt have split up in the first place.

At best, wed probably see a Sarada-Boruto kind of relationship going on with those two.

If Naruto beat almost all the paths of Pein just by his OWN power, imagine when he isnt spamming only 2 techs and has Sasuke as back up (pressumably under Itachi's tutelage)

If Tobi was stopped and Itachi never did what he did, Civil War would have broken out(That was the purpose of the Massacre to prevent the Coup and Civil War), and the Uchiha may have actually succeeded in destroying Konoha and as a result Killing Naruto.

Say, that the Uchiha's got some sort of dementia and forgot about how Konoha treated them and decided to forfeit the Coup and Naruto lived a normal life, from that point on, all we could do is speculate as to how strong Naruto would become and if it would be better for him.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Actually his patheticness came from the fact he had huge amounts of chakra which would be extremely difficult to control even for prodigies, he always had talent but not the body to utilize his talent.

Nobody his age would have the ability to gain full control over Kurama's power so he had to keep training until his body was developed enough to control it in a natural manner, kinda like how you gotta wait until you're going through puberty to be able to start body building.



Nope, I'm stating he's Ashura's transmigrant, even without Kurama he had the potential to reach Hashi's level, Kurama just gave him the potential to surpass that level like Itachi's eyes giving Sasuke the potential to surpass Madara's.

I like that kind of thinking.. Also the whole Ashura had late maturity kinda thing...

But dont you think hed at least bit better from what he started? I mean he did have to control 2 MASSIVE amount of chakra at a very young age. I bet hed have better and more natural way of controlling massive amount of chakra at that time. Also he doesnt have to fight Kurama for control.

 

[Jokule67]

It would seem that with his own power alone he defeated most of them and lost to Tendo, dont see how he would defeat Tendo if it were not for Kurama's interference but Ill let you elaborate if you so wish.

And also whether Sasuke/Naruto would be stronger/weaker if things were different is a matter of opinion.

Sasukes drive to get stronger was to kill Itachi. Naruto ninja way was a byproduct of being shunned and wanting acceptance, and at the end got the power of the strongest Tailed Beast. You dont get any stronger than that. Want proof? Just ask everybody else in NV if they can match NaruSasu. Not in a million yrs


Now the main factor in the Pain fight is that Tendo was powerless. Naruto had an advantage, but Narutos Sage Mode kept running out and it was draining constantly. With Ma and Pa on Narutos shoulders he would have unlimited Nature energy more concentrated and perfect than Jman.

The fight would be much easier and Ma and Pa would be right there to help him anyway they could. Kyuubi kept Naruto from completing Sage Mode. Ma and Pa fusiom was literally the last step.
He could only manage 2 Rasenshurikens b4 SM ran out and in order to summon his clones he had to first create distance, all the while allowing Tendos power to return slowly.

Even then he ALMOST hit Tendo with Rasenshuriken but it was too late.

 

[shadowcb]

Kurama hurt Naruto more than it helped him. Because of Kurama Naruto had to parents to give his guidance or training outside the academy. Naruto had no knowledge of his clan or their ability. Kurama also made it harder for Naruto to control his chakra/power, yet Naruto was still able to learn difficult jutsu like FRS and Sage. That proves Naruto without Kurama would still be a skilled ninja.

It's not accurate to say Naruto would have died without Kurama in part 1 because he could have received the training and jutsu needed to stay alive against the same opponents he faced in the manga.

Base Naruto's arsenal:
- Shadow clone jutsu
- transformation jutsu
- Rasengan
- Great rasengan and other large rasengan. (I separate this rasengan from his normal rasengan because the larger size give the justu more power and range. Naruto even used it in a defensive way when he create a wall of rasengans to stop the Madara's wood jutsu)
- Wind rasengan
- FRS
- Weapon summoning jutsu
- Body flicker jutsu
- Toad summoning jutsu
- Reverse summoning jutsu (this is the S/T jutsu Naruto uses a scoll to summon his clones)
- Sealing jutsu/skill (his ability to manipulate the 9 tail seal and the new sealing technique he used to seal the 9 tails)
- Chakra transfer justu
- Genjutsu defensive skills

Base Naruto "The Last" jutsu improvements/feats:
- Base mode Naruto can create a FRS with one hand, throw it, and control it's trajectory. He can create any rasengan or variation using one hand
- Rasengan blast (that's the new Rasengan he used at the end of the movie. It shoots out like a blast of energy, similar to how the beast ball can be shot out in a wave form)
- New/improve 9 tail seal. Naruto tail beast seal allowed him to release the 9 tails from his body.

Sage mode:
-enhance speed
-enhance strength
-enhance durability
-senjutsu ( this is any jutsu naruto uses sage chakra to enhance)
-frog fu - 2 parts: 1- taijutsu stlye that uses natural energy (invisble) attack, 2 - enhance perdiction abiltiy
-chakra sense ability/jutsu

Considering Naruto's ability/skills he could have very easily learned:
- wind shuriken
- wind sword
- wind shield/barrier
- FTG, he learned a S/T jutsu before he fought Pain
- more sealing jutsu

 

[wanderingcactus]

If Tobi was stopped and Itachi never did what he did, Civil War would have broken out(That was the purpose of the Massacre to prevent the Coup and Civil War), and the Uchiha may have actually succeeded in destroying Konoha and as a result Killing Naruto.

Say, that the Uchiha's got some sort of dementia and forgot about how Konoha treated them and decided to forfeit the Coup and Naruto lived a normal life, from that point on, all we could do is speculate as to how strong Naruto would become and if it would be better for him.

yeah I was saying just solely on this debate that Sasuke and Naruto were brought up NORMALLY.

Like Kushina would keep Kurama until Naruto comes into age. Minato is still Hokage. Tobi was stopped.

Itachi never had to kill the Uchiha. Uchiha never went through with the whole Coup.

Lets say that this was all possible by Shisui's KA being casted by Itachi on Tobi being an escapegoat and gave Konoha and Uchiha a common enemy in which at the end they went buddy buddies with each other.

So Uchiha is STILL the most powerful clan (Senjus are MIA) and Uzumakis werent destroyed by Akatsukis (because everyone went fought Tobi)

So thats the scenario.

What are your thoughts and speculations?

They have all friends and families to help them out to get as strong as they are now (all the way to god-tier).

Obviously theyd have handouts be given to them by Hagoromo at some point and they'd still have to go up against Madara and 10tails but dont focus as to why and how that happened.

I think at best I'd say it'll be close to the whole Boruto-Sarada thing. Son of hokage and mom is from a specialized clan. Same goes for Sasuke. From a powerful clan and his brother is a front runner to be hokage.

Do you think they would be weaker compared to their tragic alternate upbringing or would they be on the same pace or perhaps theyd actually be ahead of their current selves (tragic upbringing)?

 

[ItachiDaSoloKing]

Well, you cant forget that Pain wasnt just 1 person, Naruto had to fight all the others, also even if Naruto lands a RasenShuriken on Pain(Considering he just doesnt move out of its trajectory) he can still use Almighty Push to reflect it.

Also Ma and Pa wasnt too much of a Power Up if you think about it. Jiraiya was not able to use Perfect Sage Mode like Naruto could so he use Ma and Pa to help absorb more energy, Naruto had perfect SM and didnt necessarily need help collecting Natural Energy,, thats why Jiraiya was showing Frog Like traits.

And Ma and Pa would have definitely helped but they had no counter for Universal Pull. Either way they were doomed to die.

 

[ItachiDaSoloKing]

yeah I was saying just solely on this debate that Sasuke and Naruto were brought up NORMALLY.

Like Kushina would keep Kurama until Naruto comes into age. Minato is still Hokage. Tobi was stopped.

Itachi never had to kill the Uchiha. Uchiha never went through with the whole Coup.

Lets say that this was all possible by Shisui's KA being casted by Itachi on Tobi being an escapegoat and gave Konoha and Uchiha a common enemy in which at the end they went buddy buddies with each other.

So Uchiha is STILL the most powerful clan (Senjus are MIA) and Uzumakis werent destroyed by Akatsukis (because everyone went fought Tobi)

So thats the scenario.

What are your thoughts and speculations?

They have all friends and families to help them out to get as strong as they are now (all the way to god-tier).

Obviously theyd have handouts be given to them by Hagoromo at some point and they'd still have to go up against Madara and 10tails but dont focus as to why and how that happened.

I think at best I'd say it'll be close to the whole Boruto-Sarada thing. Son of hokage and mom is from a specialized clan. Same goes for Sasuke. From a powerful clan and his brother is a front runner to be hokage.

Do you think they would be weaker compared to their tragic alternate upbringing or would they be on the same pace or perhaps theyd actually be ahead of their current selves (tragic upbringing)?

Like I said I wont deny that Kurama was likely not a healthy thing for Naruto's development as a shinobi however you can only speculate how he would have turned out if he was raised normally since you are not Kishimoto.

 

[Jokule67]

yeah I was saying just solely on this debate that Sasuke and Naruto were brought up NORMALLY.

Like Kushina would keep Kurama until Naruto comes into age. Minato is still Hokage. Tobi was stopped.

Itachi never had to kill the Uchiha. Uchiha never went through with the whole Coup.

Lets say that this was all possible by Shisui's KA being casted by Itachi on Tobi being an escapegoat and gave Konoha and Uchiha a common enemy in which at the end they went buddy buddies with each other.

So Uchiha is STILL the most powerful clan (Senjus are MIA) and Uzumakis werent destroyed by Akatsukis (because everyone went fought Tobi)

So thats the scenario.

What are your thoughts and speculations?

They have all friends and families to help them out to get as strong as they are now (all the way to god-tier).

Obviously theyd have handouts be given to them by Hagoromo at some point and they'd still have to go up against Madara and 10tails but dont focus as to why and how that happened.

I think at best I'd say it'll be close to the whole Boruto-Sarada thing. Son of hokage and mom is from a specialized clan. Same goes for Sasuke. From a powerful clan and his brother is a front runner to be hokage.

Do you think they would be weaker compared to their tragic alternate upbringing or would they be on the same pace or perhaps theyd actually be ahead of their current selves (tragic upbringing)?

They will be weaker. Noone can even stand up to them now.

They would have what already exists in NV and NV cannot touch them right now.

Kyuubi, Mangekyou, Rinnegan, RSM. You cant get those or power close to it by training in NV.

 

[Jokule67]

Like I said I wont deny that Kurama was likely not a healthy thing for Naruto's development as a shinobi however you can only speculate how he would have turned out if he was raised normally since you are not Kishimoto.

Because thats what this site is for

 

[Jokule67]

Well, you cant forget that Pain wasnt just 1 person, Naruto had to fight all the others, also even if Naruto lands a RasenShuriken on Pain(Considering he just doesnt move out of its trajectory) he can still use Almighty Push to reflect it.

Also Ma and Pa wasnt too much of a Power Up if you think about it. Jiraiya was not able to use Perfect Sage Mode like Naruto could so he use Ma and Pa to help absorb more energy, Naruto had perfect SM and didnt necessarily need help collecting Natural Energy,, thats why Jiraiya was showing Frog Like traits.

And Ma and Pa would have definitely helped but they had no counter for Universal Pull. Either way they were doomed to die.

Tendo was powerless meaning no Almighty Push. He got his power back after scuffling and losing EVERY other last Pain. Naruto would beat them faster had his Sage Mode never ran out in the first place


Infinite SAGE MODE is a power up and Jman beat 3 pains with Ma and Pa. Naruto beat 5.

The fusion allows Ma and Ma to continuously absorb Nature Energy in a nonmoving state making Sage Mode last as long as you need it

 

[wanderingcactus]

Kurama hurt Naruto more than it helped him. Because of Kurama Naruto had to parents to give his guidance or training outside the academy. Naruto had no knowledge of his clan or their ability. Kurama also made it harder for Naruto to control his chakra/power, yet Naruto was still able to learn difficult jutsu like FRS and Sage. That proves Naruto without Kurama would still be a skilled ninja.

It's not accurate to say Naruto would have died without Kurama in part 1 because he could have received the training and jutsu needed to stay alive against the same opponents he faced in the manga.

Base Naruto's arsenal:
- Shadow clone jutsu
- transformation jutsu
- Rasengan
- Great rasengan and other large rasengan. (I separate this rasengan from his normal rasengan because the larger size give the justu more power and range. Naruto even used it in a defensive way when he create a wall of rasengans to stop the Madara's wood jutsu)
- Wind rasengan
- FRS
- Weapon summoning jutsu
- Body flicker jutsu
- Toad summoning jutsu
- Reverse summoning jutsu (this is the S/T jutsu Naruto uses a scoll to summon his clones)
- Sealing jutsu/skill (his ability to manipulate the 9 tail seal and the new sealing technique he used to seal the 9 tails)
- Chakra transfer justu
- Genjutsu defensive skills

Base Naruto "The Last" jutsu improvements/feats:
- Base mode Naruto can create a FRS with one hand, throw it, and control it's trajectory. He can create any rasengan or variation using one hand
- Rasengan blast (that's the new Rasengan he used at the end of the movie. It shoots out like a blast of energy, similar to how the beast ball can be shot out in a wave form)
- New/improve 9 tail seal. Naruto tail beast seal allowed him to release the 9 tails from his body.

Sage mode:
-enhance speed
-enhance strength
-enhance durability
-senjutsu ( this is any jutsu naruto uses sage chakra to enhance)
-frog fu - 2 parts: 1- taijutsu stlye that uses natural energy (invisble) attack, 2 - enhance perdiction abiltiy
-chakra sense ability/jutsu

Considering Naruto's ability/skills he could have very easily learned:
- wind shuriken
- wind sword
- wind shield/barrier
- FTG, he learned a S/T jutsu before he fought Pain
- more sealing jutsu

I agree with out except for the Shadow Clones... Remember he had to resort to that because he had Kurama (well maybe thats not entirely true) He took the scroll from a traitor but he read it because he was useless and couldnt do anything except taijutsu.

So if the circumstances were changed, he would probably use ninjutsu to stop that guy from stealing the scroll. The only way at that point of learning Shadow Clones is if he STILL read the scroll, I mean he is a kid afterall and kids tend to get naughty.

But since at this point he KNOWS that hes the son of a hokage, I dont think hed risk destroying his image and probably give the scroll back to Iruka without reading it.

So less training on taijutsu and possibly NO shadow clones (perhaps a different kind of clones probably cant spam it though)

 

[ItachiDaSoloKing]

Because thats what this site is for

I wasn't shunning him or saying that he shouldn't speculate, just that without absolute Manga facts suggesting that Naruto would be stronger if raised differently I wont even consider the theory.

 

[ItachiDaSoloKing]

Tendo was powerless meaning no Almighty Push. He got his power back after scuffling and losing EVERY other last Pain. Naruto would beat them faster had his Sage Mode never ran out in the first place


Infinite SAGE MODE is a power up and Jman beat 3 pains with Ma and Pa. Naruto beat 5.

Whether he could have defeated the pains in time with Ma and Pa is debatable, although I would say it is likely that he would have, in that case, the theory is much more plausible.

 

[ItachiDaSoloKing]

They will be weaker. Noone can even stand up to them now.

They would have what already exists in NV and NV cannot touch them right now.

Kyuubi, Mangekyou, Rinnegan, RSM. You cant get those or power close to it by training in NV.

I agree I dont see them coming close to their current power if things were different, and I wouldnt say they are untouchable in NV but they are amongst the strongest indeed.

 

[Jokule67]

Whether he could have defeated the pains in time with Ma and Pa is debatable, although I would say it is likely that he would have, in that case, the theory is much more plausible.

Yeah It killed me when Rasenshuriken was about to hit and Tendo got his power back lol.


Dont get me wrong full power pain>SM Naruto all the way. I just could see a diff outcome in this handicapped fight if Kyuubi wasnt preventing fusion

 

[ItachiDaSoloKing]

Yeah It killed me when Rasenshuriken was about to hit and Tendo got his power back lol.


Dont get me wrong full power pain>SM Naruto all the way. I just could see a diff outcome in this handicapped fight if Kyuubi wasnt preventing fusion

Yeah I agree, Pain was stronger than Naruto but if the circumstances were just slightly different Naruto had a pretty good chance at winning without Kurama.

 

[SenseiSama]

I like that kind of thinking.. Also the whole Ashura had late maturity kinda thing...

But dont you think hed at least bit better from what he started? I mean he did have to control 2 MASSIVE amount of chakra at a very young age.

I don't think he would, as you said he had huge amounts of chakra, what Naruto lacked was the ability to focus the chakra because it requires stamina as Kakashi stated in part 1.

Logically the more chakra you have the more stamina is required to focus it, so he had to train his stamina first, and the amount of stamina you gain is limited by age, so even with a lot of training he wouldn't have gained a higher level of chakra control than what we saw in part 1 because his body was not yet physically developed enough.

If you noticed he still wasn't able to use a one handed Rasengan until the end of VoTE 2, he had to wait the entire manga to gain full control over his and Kurama's chakra.

I bet hed have better and more natural way of controlling massive amount of chakra at that time. Also he doesnt have to fight Kurama for control.

Unfortunately there wasn't another way of gaining full control of the bijuu's power, his seal was starting to break and he had to make a new one to prevent his body from being taken over. In order to make a new one he had to tame Kurama first by fighting him.

 

[wanderingcactus]

They will be weaker. Noone can even stand up to them now.

They would have what already exists in NV and NV cannot touch them right now.

Kyuubi, Mangekyou, Rinnegan, RSM. You cant get those or power close to it by training in NV.

yes but I said all the way to god-tier...

Obviously theyll reach that no matter what. That's just plot for you. No matter what they do theyll have to fight as they are the transmigrants.

Im saying everything later would be the same, just their upbringings would be different.

Madara would still try to take over the world. Hed use Nagato to attack Konoha (still would get TnJ-ed to bits)

Tobi would be MIA (lets speculate that he was defeated on his plan on Konoha)

So im saying with different upbringings, would they be stronger,weaker or on the same pace?

No massacre means Sasuke also stayed with Team 7 and Itachi wouldnt have been a deserter/fugitive.

You think without their struggle and tragic past, theyll be weaker? Exclude kurama and EMS handouts (lets just say that they still get it no matter what. Like Kushina passing it on to Naruto when hes ready for it and Itachi sacrificing himself and giving EMS to Sasuke and thats when Sasuke turns emo because of some BS like Naruto couldnt save Itachi so he must die or something)

So in the end they get all the buffs and handouts even the seals. Im just talking about solely if you take everything that had happen when they were still a child, would they be better than their current selves, worse or on the same pace?

I'd say they'll probably be better. They'll achieve everything faster as they have better guidance and develop more arsenal.

Also their time wouldnt have been wasted trying to run away/chase each other.

 

[shadowcb]

Sasukes drive to get stronger was to kill Itachi. Naruto ninja way was a byproduct of being shunned and wanting acceptance, and at the end got the power of the strongest Tailed Beast. You dont get any stronger than that. Want proof? Just ask everybody else in NV if they can match NaruSasu. Not in a million yrs


Now the main factor in the Pain fight is that Tendo was powerless. Naruto had an advantage, but Narutos Sage Mode kept running out and it was draining constantly. With Ma and Pa on Narutos shoulders he would have unlimited Nature energy more concentrated and perfect than Jman.

The fight would be much easier and Ma and Pa would be right there to help him anyway they could. Kyuubi kept Naruto from completing Sage Mode. Ma and Pa fusiom was literally the last step.
He could only manage 2 Rasenshurikens b4 SM ran out and in order to summon his clones he had to first create distance, all the while allowing Tendos power to return slowly.

Even then he ALMOST hit Tendo with Rasenshuriken but it was too late.

I found Naruto potential to SM to be very interesting.

1 - Naruto was learning to increase his SM time limit. When he fought Pain he was limited to 5 minutes or 2 FRS. During the war Naruto could use 3 FRS before he ran out of SM chakra. That would mean his time limit should have increased to about 7 1/2 minute. Right before Madara gained his real body was created the biggest SM FRS and he didn't run out of SM chakra -

You must be registered for see links

- That FRS had to be equal to at least 10 FRS. Yes, I know it's possible the shadow clone were using their chakra too, but that still a big jutsu. Base off that Naruto time limit should have increased to at least 20 minutes.

2 - Before Naruto fought Pain he was learning to gather natural energy and active SM while moving -

You must be registered for see links

- If Naruto ever perfected that he wouldn't need toads or have to worry about SM risk. I would have loved to seen that.

 

[wanderingcactus]

I don't think he would, as you said he had huge amounts of chakra, what Naruto lacked was the ability to focus the chakra because it requires stamina as Kakashi stated in part 1.

Logically the more chakra you have the more stamina is required to focus it, so he had to train his stamina first, and the amount of stamina you gain is limited by age, so even with a lot of training he wouldn't have gained a higher level of chakra control than what we saw in part 1 because his body was not yet physically developed enough.

If you noticed he still wasn't able to use a one handed Rasengan until the end of VoTE 2, he had to wait the entire manga to gain full control over his and Kurama's chakra.



Unfortunately there wasn't another way of gaining full control of the bijuu's power, his seal was starting to break and he had to make a new one to prevent his body from being taken over. In order to make a new one he had to tame Kurama first by fighting him.

you may have misread.. Im only talking about Naruto's chakra at this point. No Kurama.

Yes his chakra is massive and youre right about the stamina thing.

I bet hed have the same circumstance as Ashura (I dont think Ashura had any bijuus with him when he fought Indra. Dunno, maybe he did.)

So you dont think it wouldve made any difference when it comes to chakra control if he wasnt Kurama's jin?