You meant to argue about who was learning who, who trained more, or MS activation? I thought you actually had claims in this topic that was referring to the actual thread. I do not know what you really want me to answer? If you have actual questions, just send them to me here, not in quote form. Write them out one by one.
Naruto
Trained for Kage bunshins
trained for rasengan
trained for summoning jutsu
Trained during the time skip
Trained for the rasenshuriken
trained for sage mode
trained for frog kata
beat Kurama with the help of his mother and a bit of help with Bee
by gaining the trust of kirama for his hardworks and determination, he gained BM
Gained the trust of the bijuus by freeing them
Received Sage of 6 Path chakra
Sasuke
Had emotional breakdown to awaken his sharingan
trained for chidori
trained to reach Lee's speed
Was bitten in the neck for curse mark
Took a pill for curse mark v2
Trained during the time skip
trained with kenjutsu
Awakened ms after he heard the truth about itachi
masked tobi to give him Itachi's eyes
received Hashirama cells
received the rinnegan from sage of six paths
That's irrelevant, he still has their chakra, without it he wouldn't have been able to match indra's arrow.
That was a statement regarding the powers between the both of them in regards of their chakra. Naruto had already used up too much of their chakra during the fight between JJ Madara/Kaguya. Naruto in the fight against Sasuke, could only use Kurama, and Kurama only.
Bold is untrue, chakra is chakra. When sasuke gained the bijuu's chakra he converted it all to raiton chakra, naruto could've easily done the same via converting what little bijuu chakra he had into his kurama avatar, & this is even supported through the fact that he can match his chakra w/ others. [
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There was no indication of their being used at all, like the past experiences where they would form some sort of telepathic communication first.
This was only ever done when naruto was specifically using an ability of the bijuu's. As I said naruto can easily convert what little bijuu chakra he has into his RSM/avatar.
Unless someone is going to sit here and tell me that Naruto's BM avatar is not Kurama's. Naruto was restricted of their power.
See that's the problem with your conclusion. Is that Sasuke did not use a "small" amount of their Bijuu chakra. In fact trying to form any logical answer for that amount of Bijuu is unreal. Did he use a lot, a little, or maybe just enough? Who knows. It was stated that he used enough for the Susano'o to become a Gedo Manzo. ENOUGH chakra for his Susano'o to actually transform into something new, and have enough chakra to form an Indra Arrow.
Kurama was not even strong enough to face that kind of power by itself. The only reason why Naruto won that fight in the first place was because Kurama gathered Senjutsu/Natural Energy to boost their power needed to stop it. What's worse is that Naruto still would of lost that match up if he did not use Fuuton (Wind) against the Indra Arrrow which was lightning (Elemental Advantage). So trying to say BS like Sasuke did not use their power enough, or he used only a little bit of their power. Is an understatement of the year, and a bad comprehension of the fight itself. Now let me tell you a conclusion. Naruto needed three BM avatars to fuse together to even stand up to the level of power/chakra Sasuke had. So think about that for a minute, let's not even include the fact that he needed to mesh Senjutsu in the mix as-well. A LOT of it too.
How is my assumption any less credible than the idiotic assumptions of people like Spacey Orange, who casually throw in that Sasuke used 8 Bijuu? What most Naruto fans, you included, seem to suggest is that Sasuke somehow used all of the Bijuu's power and still only stalemated a 50% Kurama, implying that it was only due to his incompetence and ''him being weaker'' that he couldn't win, which is not only untrue on so many levels but pretty much bashing in disguise. I'm going by logic - not only is even 50% Kurama stronger than most of the Bijuu combined, but also Sasuke only took however much needed to equal out Naruto. If he truly absorbed all of the power of the 8 Bijuus, Naruto would have died.
''OMG, Sasuke failed to beat Naruto even with 8 Bijuu, when Naruto had only 50% Kurama!11!!'' <--- the average Naruto fanboy.
I don't know why you're bringing up BM avatars, considering Naruto only made 3. That Susano'o with partial Bijuu powers wouldn't have handled much more than that, and after all, I can use the favourite argument of Naruto fans against you - Kurama and Naruto were both severely low on chakra at that point. Hell, i can even say that was the only reason the Conduit Susano'o was doing so well. So how did Sasuke take alot of Bijuu chakra again?
The senjutsu bit of your post is countered the same way. If Kurama couldn't dole out the damage needed due to insufficient chakra levels, it's only natural Naruto would seek another source to equal out the clash. It does not in any way mean Kurama's chakra wasn't enough to counter the Bijuu-infused Indra's Arrow, if he was at full power.
Indra said:
Naruto was given more powerups? Rikudou Mode, the one without the cloak. That is one powerup itself, right? When Naruto used the cloak with his RM mode, did that become two powers? Yeah, why not? He used Kyuubi chakra to enhance himself, so let's state that he gained another. What about Sasuke huh? He gained the Rinnegan. Is that a power up? Did he gain anything other than a Rinnegan that counts as a new power? What about Amenotejikara? Is that a power Rinnegan users get? Does Naruto have all the Tailed Beast power? Yes. Did he use any in the fight? No that was restricted, much like the other Path techniques that was not shown in the fight at all.
Why did you choose to focus on the ''-ups'' part? I obviously meant Naruto has received way more power as a whole. Are you seriously suggesting Naruto and Sasuke were on even terms after their Hagoromo encounter? Do you really believe a Rinnegan who's only unique trait is a nerfed technique with a cooldown and limited range is somehow supposed to compete with RSM and 9 separate entities? How exactly? My main point was this: how was Sasuke even supposed to stand a chance without having some massive chakra source like Naruto does?
Bold is untrue, chakra is chakra. When sasuke gained the bijuu's chakra he converted it all to raiton chakra, naruto could've easily done the same via converting what little bijuu chakra he had into his kurama avatar, & this is even supported through the fact that he can match his chakra w/ others. [
Except that he did not. His Kurama avatar is made up of KURAMA. Nothing else. Unless you can actually show me a scan of Kurama not being the influence in his own Bijuu Mode form, then nothing will progress.
This was only ever done when naruto was specifically using an ability of the bijuu's. As I said naruto can easily convert what little bijuu chakra he has into his RSM/avatar.
Not exactly. Each scenerio where Naruto used their chakra, let it be Rasenshuriken, or enhancing his overall chakra to a boiling point. He needed to talk to them. He cannot continuously use their chakra, why? Because he is not their Bijuu like Kurama. They need to send their chakra to him. Not to mention they said that multiple times already. Saying he can covert their chakra without them actually knowing is a large assumption on your part. He is not a Juubi Jin, but a Psuedo version.
Assumption. Where did Naruto use Bijuu chakra without them making contact? Nowhere. Only Kurama and Naruto can do that, but the other Tailed Beast require some sort of connection and then they send their chakra onto him. Saying that he can amplify his own power with theirs is pretty much fan-fiction when Kurama Mode is created from only Kurama's chakra. Hence the color, shape, and overall abilities. I mean, if you actually believe that, then there is no point in the conversation. I guess BM Naruto is created with the Tailed beast too besides Kurama, huh?
How is my assumption any less credible than the idiotic assumptions of people like Spacey Orange, who casually throw in that Sasuke used 8 Bijuu? What most Naruto fans, you included, seem to suggest is that Sasuke somehow used all of the Bijuu's power and still only stalemated a 50% Kurama, implying that it was only due to his incompetence and ''him being weaker'' that he couldn't win, which is not only untrue on so many levels but pretty much bashing in disguise. I'm going by logic - not only is even 50% Kurama stronger than most of the Bijuu combined, but also Sasuke only took however much needed to equal out Naruto. If he truly absorbed all of the power of the 8 Bijuus, Naruto would have died.
No they are both wrong. Sasuke never used all of their power, but he used enough. Funny how you state I said Sasuke used all of their power when I never said such thing. I said you cannot determine the amount of chakra he used against Naruto, only because it cannot be calculated that easily. We can only use what Sasuke did in the fight as an estimate between how much he used, and between how much Naruto had to use to catch up to that power. If anyone honestly thinks Sasuke used a little bit of their chakra, then they are alluded by some sort of low calculated wank for their character. He used enough chakra. You have to remember that even with the Senjutsu + 3 BM avatar's included. Naruto still would of lost that fight without Elemental Advantage. Try to understand how much chakra Sasuke used since Indra Arrow was the only technique he used with their chakra combined. That scale of the technique too was large, making it his strongest move without a doubt.
I don't know why you're bringing up BM avatars, considering Naruto only made 3. That Susano'o with partial Bijuu powers wouldn't have handled much more than that, and after all, I can use the favourite argument of Naruto fans against you - Kurama and Naruto were both severely low on chakra at that point. Hell, i can even say that was the only reason the Conduit Susano'o was doing so well. So how did Sasuke take alot of Bijuu chakra again?
I brought up the BM avatars because you failed to realize that Naruto needed three BM avatar's in strength to match the Bijuu Susano'o in the first place. The only reason why Sasuke had enough power to take down Naruto was because of that ample boost of power he gained from the Bijuu that was meant to overpower him.
The senjutsu bit of your post is countered the same way. If Kurama couldn't dole out the damage needed due to insufficient chakra levels, it's only natural Naruto would seek another source to equal out the clash. It does not in any way mean Kurama's chakra wasn't enough to counter the Bijuu-infused Indra's Arrow, if he was at full power.
Kurama/Naruto would of died without the Senjutsu. Kurama states that himself after they survive the Indra Arrow/FRS/Choudama FRS stalemate. His power was obviously not enough, otherwise he would not have gathered Senjutsu in the first place.
Why did you choose to focus on the ''-ups'' part? I obviously meant Naruto has received way more power as a whole. Are you seriously suggesting Naruto and Sasuke were on even terms after their Hagoromo encounter? Do you really believe a Rinnegan who's only unique trait is a nerfed technique with a cooldown and limited range is somehow supposed to compete with RSM and 9 separate entities? How exactly? My main point was this: how was Sasuke even supposed to stand a chance without having some massive chakra source like Naruto does?
Of course Naruto always had the Sage Mode enhancement with his Kurama avatars. Which always put Sasuke beneath him, but you seem to misunderstand the part of the battle which I am alluding to. Sasuke can handle his own now with his Rinnegan, no? Funny enough is you are right. If Naruto was not restricted of the other Tailed Beast power, he would of won that clash. Seeing how he only had a little bit left, he did not. Which goes back to the beginning of Sasuke and Naruto being equal before the Tailed Beast. None of which would of gained the upper-hand on each other.
Not unless Sasuke used Tailed Beast power to overpower Naruto
Not unless Naruto used Kurama to gather Senjutsu to overpower Sasuke.
This still is included with Naruto not using any of the Tailed Beast chakra other than Kurama.
Then take out Itachi's eyes and techniques out of Sasuke plz. You do realize that Naruto had to master kurama, right? It didnt just activate all at once.
Then take out Itachi's eyes and techniques out of Sasuke plz. You do realize that Naruto had to master kurama, right? It didnt just activate all at once.
What techniques?? Don't tell me you are one of those that believe Sasuke have Itachi MS POWER?
You do realize Naruto had plenty of help from bee and his mom right?? Just like in all his battles.
All right, fair enough, Indra. I can agree with the first paragraph of your post - Sasuke took enough chakra, however much that is. The latter would simply turn into a dead end if we continued, since what we're saying is pretty much the same thing with different wording.
I won't even bother with the Squid anymore, though... just the way he writes is revolting.
Then take out Itachi's eyes and techniques out of Sasuke plz. You do realize that Naruto had to master kurama, right? It didnt just activate all at once.
What techniques?? Don't tell me you are one of those that believe Sasuke have Itachi MS POWER?
You do realize Naruto had plenty of help from bee and his mom right?? Just like in all his battles.
Well that's already wrong considering naruto combines his kurama chakra with his senjutsu chakra. So no, kurama avatar is not solely made up of kurama.
Unless you can actually show me a scan of Kurama not being the influence in his own Bijuu Mode form, then nothing will progress.
Don't need to, the fact that senjutsu does nothing to change the way his avatar looks is more than enough to support what I said. He used the bijuu's chakra to amplify his avatar & new mode in terms of power.
Not exactly. Each scenerio where Naruto used their chakra, let it be Rasenshuriken, or enhancing his overall chakra to a boiling point. He needed to talk to them.
Because it wouldn't make sense from a writer's standpoint to show the bijuu every time naruto uses a jutsu. When naruto taps into a specific power of that bijuu [whether it be yoton, jiton, etc.] the bijuu is shown giving him that power. When naruto uses his own jutsus then showing the bijuu is redundant, it's a constant link.
He cannot continuously use their chakra, why? Because he is not their Bijuu like Kurama.
Lol Never once said he converts their chakra w/o them knowing, he maintains a constant link with them, of course they know when he's accessing their chakra.
Naruto is linked to every bijuu. KCM/BM was naruto accessing kurama's chakra, & RSM is naruto accessing all of their chakra. The seal on his back proves it, it's a seal that only JJ's possess.
Assumption. Where did Naruto use Bijuu chakra without them making contact? Nowhere.
RSM is naruto using his rikudou senjutsu + the bijuu's chakra, otherwise why does naruto have a JJ's seal on his back if he doesn't have the bijuu's chakra sealed within that mode.
Only Kurama and Naruto can do that, but the other Tailed Beast require some sort of connection and then they send their chakra onto him.
Now that is an assumption, show me where is says that the bijuu always require some sort of direct connection in order to let naruto use their chakra the way that he wants to. Then explain why naruto has a juubi jin's seal if he isn't doing what he did w/ his KCM/BM modes.
Saying that he can amplify his own power with theirs is pretty much fan-faniction when Kurama Mode is created from only Kurama's chakra. Hence the color, shape, and overall abilities.
Lol Calling it fanfiction when it's evident that he has access to their chakra & has feats of converting chakra?
& No, kurama avatar can be created through kurama's chakra + senjutsu chakra. Only when naruto absorbed a massive amount of senjutsu did his avatar change, meaning if the chakra of the bijuu isn't > kurama's chakra then there's no reason why I should believe that it would change in appearance. All in all this point is moot.
I mean, if you actually believe that, then there is no point in the conversation. I guess BM Naruto is created with the Tailed beast too besides Kurama, huh?
Lol At least learn what my logic is before trying to mock me. If you think the bold has any correlation w/ my logic then you need to take another look at the argument. U_U
Lol, Kurama cloak isnt retardedly overpowered as EMS rinnengan.
How about we talk Sasuke WITHOUT the Sharingan, and Naruto WITHOUT Kurama at all?
Y'know, just the base character skills and such? And guess what, Naruto still has a shit load of skills to take down Sasuke, he can just one shot him in his sennin mode.
Incorrect. RSM Is created through Hagoromo's Senjutsu and Kurama's chakra.
- RSM Is a product of Hagoromo's senjutsu chakra.
- The other eight tailed beasts chakra inside of Naruto were only accessible only after unlocking RM/RSM
- Naruto was only able to use the other chakra from the Tailed Beasts after receiving the power up from the Sage
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- Naruto's RSM activates with the same flame Kanji and sizzle/flame as his KCM/BM:
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Look at this:
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"You awakened the Six Paths", nowhere does it state that he used the other tailed beast chakra to formulate this.
Databook #1
Six Paths Sage Mode (六道仙人モード, Rikudō Sennin Mōdo)
Heading: A gift from the ancestor of Shinobi that grants a supernatural mental state allowing for the complete, universal comprehension of all things.
← The caster has an unconscious/automatic mastery of the Sage of Six Path's "ability to levitate" (浮遊する能力, fuyū suru nōryoku).
From what is translated other than the S06P physiological saying, it says that this is a technique that allows the user to quickly grasp the nature of Chakra with the skill of a well-studied, highly sensitive master. It also seems to have a bunch of philosophical stuff about the Sage of Six Paths which is hard to make out because I can only read about half of it.
→ Kicking a Truthseeker Orb! Surpassing Kurama Mode, his vast Chakra lets him perform this risky stunt!
← His reaction speed meets or exceeds that of Madara in his Ten Tails Jinchūriki Form. It's the height of sensory ability!
Databook #2 translated by another website
Six Paths Sage Mode (六道仙人モード, Rikudō Sennin Mōdo), Sage Justu / Ninjutsu used by Naruto. Most of this page is too blurry to read, so I can only translate some of it.
The big header basically says it's a gift from the ancestor of shinobi that grants a supernatural mental state allowing for the complete, universal comprehension of all things.
Firstly the technique states that this is a technique that allows the user to quickly grasp the nature of chakra with the skill of a well-studied, highly sensitive master. It also seems to have a bunch of philosphical stuff about the Sage of Six Paths which is hard to make out because I can only read about half of it.
Top caption says that the caster has an unconcious/automatic mastery of the Sage of Six Path's "ability to levitate" (浮遊する能力, fuyū suru nōryoku).
Second caption says, "Kicking a Truthseeker Orb! Surpassing Kurama Mode, his vast chakra lets him perform this risky stunt!"
Third caption says, "His reaction speed meets or exceeds that of Madara in his Ten Tails Jinchuriki Form. It's the height of sensory ability!"
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I would love to see you try to prove that one wrong, considering the manga facts and Databook all will destroy that idea. And yes, I know Kanji. I was told six times as-well that Databook does not say Bijuu at all in the form.
Well that's already wrong considering naruto combines his kurama chakra with his senjutsu chakra. So no, kurama avatar is not solely made up of kurama.
Don't need to, the fact that senjutsu does nothing to change the way his avatar looks is more than enough to support what I said. He used the bijuu's chakra to amplify his avatar & new mode in terms of power.
He used bijuu chakra to amplify his avatar? Under what circumstances does that make sense with a regular BM - BSM avatar was performing the same? His new avatar, which looks like the old one, is stronger because of the tier difference between BM ~ RSM Naruto's.
Because it wouldn't make sense from a writer's standpoint to show the bijuu every time naruto uses a jutsu. When naruto taps into a specific power of that bijuu [whether it be yoton, jiton, etc.] the bijuu is shown giving him that power. When naruto uses his own jutsus then showing the bijuu is redundant, it's a constant link.
Excuses? It would not make sense because that is how it works with Bijuu chakra. Naruto can only use their chakra when they send it to him. You even stated that RSM was with the other 9 Tailed Beast power when and after I destroy that, it will lead to you believe that he continuously gets their power from an undefinable source? When they need to communicate and share their chakra between eachother? Re-read the JJ Madara/Kaguya fight.
Are you ....? The scan shows that Naruto will be the link between the Tailed Beast. He can only talk them when they communicate. The Bijuu can access his subconscious, only after Naruto gained Hagoromo's senjutsu, but he cannot access their power the same way
That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard all day. RSM Naruto is not in a constant with their chakra, they send it to him when he needs their chakra in order to USE their abilities.
Lol Never once said he converts their chakra w/o them knowing, he maintains a constant link with them, of course they know when he's accessing their chakra.
You do realize that Naruto's RSM Avatar was Bijuu-less outside of Kurama, right? Sasuke himself states that Naruto had no more of their chakra to use, hence why he said he only held a little piece of their chakra inside of Naruto. Naruto can only use their chakra, when they send it to him, and they have to form some sort of communication. This "constant" link or whatever you are spouting, is nonsensical. Of course you have no claims to that either.
Naruto is linked to every bijuu. KCM/BM was naruto accessing kurama's chakra, & RSM is naruto accessing all of their chakra. The seal on his back proves it, it's a seal that only JJ's possess.
You are half correct. RSM is Hagoromo's senjutsu + Kyuubi Chakra. With Hagoromo's senjutsu alone Naruto still had connection with them. Look how he created a YRS in base Rikudou Mode. Was that a combination of their power too? *Rolls eyes*
RSM is naruto using his senjutsu + the bijuu's chakra, otherwise why does naruto have a JJ's seal on his back if he doesn't have the bijuu's chakra sealed within that mode.
Now that is an assumption, show me where is says that the bijuu always require some sort of direct connection in order to let naruto use their chakra the way that he wants to. Then explain why naruto has a juubi jin's seal if he isn't doing what he did w/ his KCM/BM modes.
I already stated that Naruto can access Kurama's chakra that way because he is Kurama's Jinchuriki.
Here you go:
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I can bring more in if you want? The only time Naruto and Kurama had to talk about their chakra, is when they are sharing it. Or in this instance:
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Notice how Kurama's chakra works indifferently from he other Tailed Beast. Especially since Kurama can access NARUTO'S own chakra because he is the BIJUU for Naruto. How obvious is that?
& No, kurama avatar can be created through kurama's chakra + senjutsu chakra. Only when naruto absorbed a massive amount of senjutsu did his avatar change, meaning if the chakra of the bijuu isn't > kurama's chakra then there's no reason why I should believe that it would change in appearance. All in all this point is moot.
Lol At least learn what my logic is before trying to mock me. If you think the bold has any correlation w/ my logic then you need to take another look at the argument. U_U
Lol, Kurama cloak isnt retardedly overpowered as EMS rinnengan.
How about we talk Sasuke WITHOUT the Sharingan, and Naruto WITHOUT Kurama at all?
Y'know, just the base character skills and such? And guess what, Naruto still has a shit load of skills to take down Sasuke, he can just one shot him in his sennin mode.
Just like Naruto was using chakra of all nine Bijuus? Sasuke took out small portions just as well to match the power. What's the point of this overflow of garden variety stupidity from you Naruto die-hards?
Just like Naruto was using chakra of all nine Bijuus? Sasuke took out small portions just as well to match the power. What's the point of this overflow of garden variety stupidity from you Naruto die-hards?
Naruto never used their chakra in the fight, at all. Sasuke did not match his Bijuu power when Sasuke himself stated that Naruto was low on them from the get-go.
Naruto never used their chakra in the fight, at all. Sasuke did not match his Bijuu power when Sasuke himself stated that Naruto was low on them from the get-go.
What? RSM Cloak is Hagoromo's senjutsu, and it was influced with Kurama's chakra. Hence the shape, form, and color of the chakra itself. To use their power they had to give it to him in some way. Unless you are going to type away with a straight-face and tell me that BM Kurama + Bijuudama are created with Tailed Beasts other than Kurama in BM (RSM) Naruto. Then I must say, I am ashamed.
