Naruto Vs Jonins

[Black Wolf]

Didnt Naruto handle him Chakra back there? If he didnt it would have been ridiculous. In the fight against Sasuke Kakashi could barely run after using ONE Kamui. The Ninja war was just some time after that and its almost IMPOSSIBLE for Kakashi to have got that much stronger in such a short period of time with no explanation from Kishimoto. That would be a plot hole.

Naruto handed him chakra after Kakashi fought for two days straight, used four normal Raikiri, two Raikiri through weapons (kunai and cleaver), two Raiden, two shadow clones, five Kamui, and a Doton wall. And those are just the on-panel techniques we saw - its very likely he used even more over the 48 hour period he was fighting where the panels were not focused on him.

Its not a plothole at all. Kakashi didn't get stronger, he just adapted to his Mangekyou better. Kakashi has consistently adapted to his eye throughout the manga. At first, he collapsed from base Sharingan after about 10 minutes (vs. Zabuza). Gradually, he was able to keep it active for longer periods of time until he was able to keep it active for an entire day while sparring with Naruto and Sakura. Finally, in this war, he was able to keep it active for two entire days.

With the Sharingan draining him less and less, Kakashi has more chakra available to him to use other jutsu. Kakashi's stamina in the databook is a 3, but look at what both Sasuke and Orochimaru accomplish with similar chakra levels. Kakashi has adapted to the Sharingan to the point he basically has Uchiha-like synchronization with it, thus it leeches him less and makes him look stronger because he can allocate his stamina to things other than maintaining the Sharingan.

May be true but Naruto in sage mode was fast enough to dodge the Raikage`s attack, so not only is he very fast in his reactions but in his physical speed too, I think Naruto can escape the Kamui.

It isn't "may be true," it is true, and you know it. You used a ridiculously outdated feat to try and support your argument. It would be the equivalent to me saying Naruto doesn't have Sage Mode because four hundred chapters ago he didn't have Sage Mode. Using Kakashi's first attempt at using Kamui to his detriment is pathetic when we have been presented with a plethora of much better feats, which you choose to ignore. The hilarious part is that even when Kakashi sucked at using Kamui, Deidara still stated that Kakashi had Dojutsu on Itachi's level and he still tore off Deidara's arm off.

Naruto dodged the third Raikage, who is not as fast as the fourth. Obito's Kamui pushed Minato's Hiraishin to its limit. Kakashi's Kamui outsped Obito's at point blank range and left him dumbfounded as to what had happened. Kakashi's Kamui is among the fastest techniques in the manga, and the only technique that is superior to it (speedwise) is Hiraishin. Nobody short of Minato himself, BM Naruto, or the fourth Raikage with maximum Shunshin have any hopes of dodging it with pure speed.

 

[Smd]

Team 2 mid diff at very best

 

[Skywardsword]

Naruto handed him chakra after Kakashi fought for two days straight, used four normal Raikiri, two Raikiri through weapons (kunai and cleaver), two Raiden, two shadow clones, five Kamui, and a Doton wall. And those are just the on-panel techniques we saw - its very likely he used even more over the 48 hour period he was fighting where the panels were not focused on him.

Its not a plothole at all. Kakashi didn't get stronger, he just adapted to his Mangekyou better. Kakashi has consistently adapted to his eye throughout the manga. At first, he collapsed from base Sharingan after about 10 minutes (vs. Zabuza). Gradually, he was able to keep it active for longer periods of time until he was able to keep it active for an entire day while sparring with Naruto and Sakura. Finally, in this war, he was able to keep it active for two entire days.

With the Sharingan draining him less and less, Kakashi has more chakra available to him to use other jutsu. Kakashi's stamina in the databook is a 3, but look at what both Sasuke and Orochimaru accomplish with similar chakra levels. Kakashi has adapted to the Sharingan to the point he basically has Uchiha-like synchronization with it, thus it leeches him less and makes him look stronger because he can allocate his stamina to things other than maintaining the Sharingan.

Thats just Kishimoto using plot no jutsu the way i see it...

It isn't "may be true," it is true, and you know it. You used a ridiculously outdated feat to try and support your argument. It would be the equivalent to me saying Naruto doesn't have Sage Mode because four hundred chapters ago he didn't have Sage Mode. Using Kakashi's first attempt at using Kamui to his detriment is pathetic when we have been presented with a plethora of much better feats, which you choose to ignore. The hilarious part is that even when Kakashi sucked at using Kamui, Deidara still stated that Kakashi had Dojutsu on Itachi's level and he still tore off Deidara's arm off.

No, i dont know it, i actually admit this kind of stuff, example: You are actually starting to convince me. But the way you are saying it sounds like Kakashi could solo sage mode Naruto...

Naruto dodged the third Raikage, who is not as fast as the fourth. Obito's Kamui pushed Minato's Hiraishin to its limit. Kakashi's Kamui outsped Obito's at point blank range and left him dumbfounded as to what had happened. Kakashi's Kamui is among the fastest techniques in the manga, and the only technique that is superior to it (speedwise) is Hiraishin. Nobody short of Minato himself, BM Naruto, or the fourth Raikage with maximum Shunshin have any hopes of dodging it with pure speed.

Ok, now you are completely overating Kakashi, I agree, you have a point, Naruto couldnt solo the Jonins but the way you portray Kakashi is ridiculous.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Restrict Kamui and Naruto stands a chance.

 

[xcoyote]

Restrict Kamui and Naruto stands a chance.

no he doesnt,SM Naruto speed feats are not that notable he still gets speedblitzed by Gai and Hirudora in dat face.
Kakashi then proceeds to wrap him and GG.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

no he doesnt,SM Naruto speed feats are not that notable he still gets speedblitzed by Gai and Hirudora in dat face.
Kakashi then proceeds to wrap him and GG.

SM Naruto can only be blitzed by Ay, Minato and Juubito as of right now.

In CQC Naruto's Kumite will take Guy out.

The only way to beat him is long range.

 

[Black Wolf]

Thats just Kishimoto using plot no jutsu the way i see it...

So a main character's stamina gradually improving throughout a Shonen series is plot-no-jutsu? Then I guess Naruto and Sasuke getting ridiculous powerups within a ridiculously short period of time is plot-no-jutsu as well.

No, i dont know it, i actually admit this kind of stuff, example: You are actually starting to convince me. But the way you are saying it sounds like Kakashi could solo sage mode Naruto...

I'm not even addressing the match up, nor do I intend to. I was addressing your faulty argument and use of facts.

Ok, now you are completely overating Kakashi, I agree, you have a point, Naruto couldnt solo the Jonins but the way you portray Kakashi is ridiculous.

I'm not overrating anything, and you didn't counter a thing I said. It is a fact that Minato's Hiraishin barely edged out Obito's Kamui in a battle of speed. It is a fact that Kakashi's Kamui outsped Obito's Kamui in a battle of speed. Minato's Hiraishin is the fastest jutsu on the planet, and Kakashi's Kamui is a close second.

Based on that, Kamui is only dodgeable by top tier speedsters, and the only people who fall into the category of top tier speedsters are BM Naruto, Raikage's amped up Shunshin, and Minato's Hiraishin.

 

[EZQ]

Thats just Kishimoto using plot no jutsu the way i see it...





No, i dont know it, i actually admit this kind of stuff, example: You are actually starting to convince me. But the way you are saying it sounds like Kakashi could solo sage mode Naruto...



Ok, now you are completely overating Kakashi, I agree, you have a point, Naruto couldnt solo the Jonins but the way you portray Kakashi is ridiculous.

By current feats, MS Kakashi > SM Naruto

He got crazy OP lately... also naruto in SM is no way fast enough to doge kamui since kamui is faster than a SUSANOO ARROW... (and sm naruto is no way near that speed or size)

 

[Skywardsword]

So a main character's stamina gradually improving throughout a Shonen series is plot-no-jutsu? Then I guess Naruto and Sasuke getting ridiculous powerups within a ridiculously short period of time is plot-no-jutsu as well.



I'm not even addressing the match up, nor do I intend to. I was addressing your faulty argument and use of facts.



I'm not overrating anything, and you didn't counter a thing I said. It is a fact that Minato's Hiraishin barely edged out Obito's Kamui in a battle of speed. It is a fact that Kakashi's Kamui outsped Obito's Kamui in a battle of speed. Minato's Hiraishin is the fastest jutsu on the planet, and Kakashi's Kamui is a close second.

Based on that, Kamui is only dodgeable by top tier speedsters, and the only people who fall into the category of top tier speedsters are BM Naruto, Raikage's amped up Shunshin, and Minato's Hiraishin.

Why do i have to answer you argument if i agreed with you? Explain, please. And yes, you overate Kakashi. THe way you describe him makes me think he could beat anyone as long as he has Kamui.

 

[Skywardsword]

So a main character's stamina gradually improving throughout a Shonen series is plot-no-jutsu? Then I guess Naruto and Sasuke getting ridiculous powerups within a ridiculously short period of time is plot-no-jutsu as well.



I'm not even addressing the match up, nor do I intend to. I was addressing your faulty argument and use of facts.



I'm not overrating anything, and you didn't counter a thing I said. It is a fact that Minato's Hiraishin barely edged out Obito's Kamui in a battle of speed. It is a fact that Kakashi's Kamui outsped Obito's Kamui in a battle of speed. Minato's Hiraishin is the fastest jutsu on the planet, and Kakashi's Kamui is a close second.

Based on that, Kamui is only dodgeable by top tier speedsters, and the only people who fall into the category of top tier speedsters are BM Naruto, Raikage's amped up Shunshin, and Minato's Hiraishin.

Why do i have to answer you argument if i agreed with you? Explain, please. And yes, you overate Kakashi. THe way you describe him makes me think he could beat anyone as long as he has Kamui.

 

[Black Wolf]

Again, you're not countering my argument, but rather labeling me as an individual with a certain belief that I did not even express here. I'm not describing Kakashi at all. I am describing Kamui and the feats it has shown. Kamui is the second fastest technique in the manga, and to dodge it without the use of other techniques you'd need top tier speed. Sage Mode Naruto is not a top tier speedster.

 

[Skywardsword]

Again, you're not countering my argument, but rather labeling me as an individual with a certain belief that I did not even express here. I'm not describing Kakashi at all. I am describing Kamui and the feats it has shown. Kamui is the second fastest technique in the manga, and to dodge it without the use of other techniques you'd need top tier speed. Sage Mode Naruto is not a top tier speedster.

Ok, i give up...seems like you hardly read what i say at all.I said I AGREE with you, but the way you portray Kamui ( Not Kakashi, if you insist) is downright ridiculous...Its overated.

 

[Black Wolf]

You keep regurgitating "portrayal." I'm not portraying anything - I'm stating facts. Are you denying that Hiraishin barely edged out Obito's Kamui in a battle of speed? Are you denying that Kakashi's Kamui warped an entire clone an inch away from Obito's face before Obito's Kamui propelled projectile hit the aforementioned clone at point blank range?

Both of those things happened. There is absolutely nothing subjective about it, thus I'm not "portraying" anything. I am referencing events that actually occurred. You are yet to tell me what is it that I said that makes it ridiculous, unless you are implying you find manga facts ridiculous. You have no argument whatsoever if all you can say is "ridiculous" in every one of your posts without backing it with anything substantial.

 

[BlackFlame44]

By current feats, MS Kakashi > SM Naruto

He got crazy OP lately... also naruto in SM is no way fast enough to doge kamui since kamui is faster than a SUSANOO ARROW... (and sm naruto is no way near that speed or size)

He dodged the 3rd raikage who had previously dodged rasenshuriken

 

[elsepa]

The Kakashi wanking level on this thread is over 9000. Anyway i give it to team 2 .... Gai can give him a fight on the 7th gate while Kakashi ambushes him..... plus Yamato is there too so

 

[Skywardsword]

You keep regurgitating "portrayal." I'm not portraying anything - I'm stating facts. Are you denying that Hiraishin barely edged out Obito's Kamui in a battle of speed? Are you denying that Kakashi's Kamui warped an entire clone an inch away from Obito's face before Obito's Kamui propelled projectile hit the aforementioned clone at point blank range?

Both of those things happened. There is absolutely nothing subjective about it, thus I'm not "portraying" anything. I am referencing events that actually occurred. You are yet to tell me what is it that I said that makes it ridiculous, unless you are implying you find manga facts ridiculous. You have no argument whatsoever if all you can say is "ridiculous" in every one of your posts without backing it with anything substantial.

Ok, you are comparing Obito`s Kamui with Kakashi`s ? Well, both are very different, and Obito got Minato by surprise. Its not that the Kamui is fast, the thing is that it sucks you in before telleporting you. And yes, Kakashi telleported that lightning chakra enhanced Kunai, but its not that great a deal considering that most of the present characters have insane speed, easily surpasing a Kunai. Is that substancial enough for you?

 

[Black Wolf]

Ok, you are comparing Obito`s Kamui with Kakashi`s ? Well, both are very different, and Obito got Minato by surprise.

How are they both very different? They are the same exact technique with the same exact mechanics (barring the phasing ability). And what do you mean "Obito got Minato by surprise?" By the time Minato said "It comes down to whoever strikes a split second earlier," he was already aware of the technique's mechanics.

Its not that the Kamui is fast, the thing is that it sucks you in before telleporting you.

Of course Kamui is fast, and you are in denial if you believe otherwise. I have no idea what you mean by "it sucks you in before teleporting you."

And yes, Kakashi telleported that lightning chakra enhanced Kunai, but its not that great a deal considering that most of the present characters have insane speed, easily surpasing a Kunai. Is that substancial enough for you?

This by definition is a strawman. You're implying that I stated that warping the kunai is what makes Kamui so fast. I never even mentioned the kunai at all, let alone as the defining speed feat of Kakashi's Kamui.

Kakashi's best feat with Kamui is warping Biju Mode Naruto inches away from Obito's face, all while Obito was attempting to prevent that very tactic, given it was used on him moments earlier. Obito had full knowledge on Kakashi's Kamui and its mechanics, and full knowledge on the tactic Kakashi was attempting to pull off.

 

[Skywardsword]

How are they both very different? They are the same exact technique with the same exact mechanics (barring the phasing ability). And what do you mean "Obito got Minato by surprise?" By the time Minato said "It comes down to whoever strikes a split second earlier," he was already aware of the technique's mechanics.

Well, they are obviously used in very different ways, Obito for deffense and close combat and Kakashi`s for a along ranged attack, and when Minato said that he had already escaped the Kamui, Obito got Minato right after he telleported the Kyuubi`s Bijuu Dama

Of course Kamui is fast, and you are in denial if you believe otherwise. I have no idea what you mean by "it sucks you in before teleporting you."

Well, from what i obseved it sucks you in, like blackhole look:

You must be registered for see links

After Kakashi used it on Deidara his arm was ripped off and the blood that came out of it was sucked in into the Kamui, thats what i mean when i say : suck you in before telleporting you. And i know tje deidara fight is old, but no matter how improved, its still the same technique. And i know the Kamui is fast, i just dont think its as fast as you do.

This by definition is a strawman. You're implying that I stated that warping the kunai is what makes Kamui so fast. I never even mentioned the kunai at all, let alone as the defining speed feat of Kakashi's Kamui.

Kakashi's best feat with Kamui is warping Biju Mode Naruto inches away from Obito's face, all while Obito was attempting to prevent that very tactic, given it was used on him moments earlier. Obito had full knowledge on Kakashi's Kamui and its mechanics, and full knowledge on the tactic Kakashi was attempting to pull off.

Well, Kakashi is a prime tactician. He may use what is available to him to pull it off, can you please show me the scan where it happens? Just by curiosity.

 

[Black Wolf]

Well, they are obviously used in very different ways, Obito for deffense and close combat and Kakashi`s for a along ranged attack.

The warping mechanics are exactly the same.

and when Minato said that he had already escaped the Kamui, Obito got Minato right after he telleported the Kyuubi`s Bijuu Dama

So how did Obito catch Minato by surprise if Minato was already aware of how Kamui worked? Minato stated that it would be a battle of speed of which the conclusion would be defined by who was a split second faster after having seen the technique.

Well, from what i obseved it sucks you in, like blackhole look:

You must be registered for see links

After Kakashi used it on Deidara his arm was ripped off and the blood that came out of it was sucked in into the Kamui, thats what i mean when i say : suck you in before telleporting you. And i know tje deidara fight is old, but no matter how improved, its still the same technique.

Still have no idea what you're getting at. The "sucking in" process is teleportation. He "sucks you" into the other dimension, or "teleports" you to the other dimension. As far as I'm concerned, the two are synonymous.

Can you please show me the scan where it happens? Just by curiosity.

You must be registered for see links

.

 

[zamki]

Jonins take this