Naruto-verse lacks a BASE for fighting

[Jcub]

Maybe its late, maybe I just dont get what you're saying.

So you are saying OP has its own on screen and off screen feats attributed to each character? I'm not sure what you mean by Base and Haki. As I've never watched OP I really can't even makes heads or tails of this devil fruit thing, lol.

Either way Narutos style is suppose to work like a constant one-ups-manship, so some low lever nin (Naruto as an example) can surprise and shock the obvious larger or more powerful foe. Something that you couldn't do in DBZ. Your cheap trick is just going to make Cell mad... or Android 17 to glare or smirk slighly.

 

[Legitimate]

Naruto World is one of the weakest and had no clear indication on how fast they are after getting increase in speed.

HXH might surpass Naruto Characters when it reaches the climax of the Dark Continent Arc.

 

[Koha]

A base, really makes things too overly predictable.. It's better that Naruto doesn't have that A > B > C logic going on...
It's extremely interesting and it makes you really think that Shinobi ALL have a chance of defeating another Shinobi no matter how slim the chance might be. Hell, even Konohamaru killed a Path... It wasn't battle oriented but then again, he's a Genin to a reanimated corpse with 1/6 of a God's power in Naraka Path.

"A weapon's strength or weakness is dependent on the user's ability to use it. An expert with a pebble can still beat a novice with a shuriken." -Black Zetsu

 

[Solo]

KingHashirama, I'm not sure if you're trying to play devil's advocate or just trolling.



A lot of factors to be considered in Naruto when it comes to fighting. Their fighting is similar to Pokemon, tbh. You can't say this person is stronger than this because ABC logic. They all have their weaknesses.

Hebi Sasuke(Lightning) vs Deidara(Earth) - The advantage is in Sasuke's hand.

Gaara vs Deidara - The advantage is in Deidara.

That doesn't make Hebi Sasuke stronger than Gaara.

 

[BloodSeed]

Now this is really something that should be discussed. You see NAruto-verse, there is the problematic issue that NAruto-verse has no "Base" for its fighting.

Let me put this in perspective through one piece:

In one piece you have Devil fruits. The abilities of some devil fruits are OP, that if we were to do simple "on-screen" feats , the devil fruit people would merck the floor. However, the one factor that stops crazy bs like " logic user will merck the floor with someone" from happening is HAKI. So no matter if the fans try to create BS scenarios or anything like that , as long as someone has HAKI they will be able to counter a devil fruit.

See in one piece, a fanboy of lets say Doflamingo can come up to me and say "yo dofla can whip shanks or etc with just controlling them or slicing them and etc" , but all i ahve to do is say "nope, sorry Shanks Haki is on another level."

Because in one piece top teir with Haki = High level Haki = Able to o****er high level Devil fruits.

^^^ Thats a good base. Naruto has nothing like that.


Applying that to Naruto:

In Naruto we have genjutsu. OP technique. People like Itachi and others who in the manga are about mid-tier in powers have on screen feats of genjutsu techniques that they would solo people if we only talk about on-screen feats.

Sure we have the BS crap with Gai making a fighting style to counter genjutsu users where he fights with close eyes. But here is the battle with Itachi and Gai from on-screen feats:

Gai: I have invented a blind fighting style -closes eyes- so i can't be caught in a genjutsu.
Itachi: Thats nice - Amaterasu on Gai- But never take eyes off of your opponent newbie.

^^^ See that. Kishimoto gave a natural way to counter genjutsu, and that was to disrupt your own chakra (Something naruto tried doing, but Itachi stated he was too weak.) However when was the last time he showed someone doing this? oh wait... he never showed it.

Another example, The Gokage are above or equal to Itachi/Kisame/Danzo however with on-screen feats, We can't even say they are. Because there is no base that says "High level ninja have high level reactions or etc".


Conclusion:

Naruto-verse not having a base in fights, is what leads to the misconceptions of who is stronger, and who should be ranked where. Kishimoto, needs to clear this up. He can portray Sakura on the level of EMS Sasuke and Naruto and then not give her feats that don't even allow her to surpass Itachi. But he shouldn't need to show all feats for us to claim shes above their level..... there should be a base set up for it. But there is none, and that leads to these BS arguments.

true current sakura> hashirama

 

[BenjerminGaye]

KingHashirama, I'm not sure if you're trying to play devil's advocate or just trolling.



A lot of factors to be considered in Naruto when it comes to fighting. Their fighting is similar to Pokemon, tbh. You can't say this person is stronger than this because ABC logic. They all have their weaknesses.

Hebi Sasuke(Lightning) vs Deidara(Earth) - The advantage is in Sasuke's hand.

Gaara vs Deidara - The advantage is in Deidara.

That doesn't make Hebi Sasuke stronger than Gaara.

Yeah but what counters dragons(genjutsu) in pokemon? And even so a lvl 1 isn't beating a lvl 100.

 

[Solo]

Yeah but what counters dragons(genjutsu) in pokemon? And even so a lvl 1 isn't beating a lvl 100.

Fairy Type counters Dragon Type. They are immune to Dragon type moves.

Some random lightning using fodder(Lv 1) isn't beating Deidara(Lv 100).

Edit: As far as Genjutsu goes, there are counters. Genjutsu is used in two ways, control and illusion.
Illusion is easily broken. Control seem to work only on weaker Ninjas.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Fairy Type counters Dragon Type. They are immune to Dragon type moves.

Some random lightning using fodder(Lv 1) isn't beating Deidara(Lv 100).

Edit: As far as Genjutsu goes, there are counters. Genjutsu is used in two ways, control and illusion.
Illusion is easily broken. Control seem to work only on weaker Ninjas.

Fairy types like literally just got added-_- back then dragons dominated, your getting my point.

1 ms Obito(lvl 65) shouldn't be able to beat 8th gate guy (lvl 100, perfect iv's) yet can.

Kage (lvl 85 on average) should comfortably or high diff beat sick itachi(lvl 60) but because of his hax moveset( the equivalent of a speed boost blaziken) he can sweep.

 

[Sage Moonblood]

I understand what you're saying OP

If this was one peice logic

The base meaning

Genin<Chuunin<Jonin<Kage

So in One Piece there is no way a Genin could beat a Jonin

But in Naruto a Genin (Naruto) can destroy a Jonin (Neji)

 

[Migster257]

Naruto World is one of the weakest and had no clear indication on how fast they are after getting increase in speed.

HXH might surpass Naruto Characters when it reaches the climax of the Dark Continent Arc.

HxH surpassed Naruto long ago.

 

[Conspirator.]

No gokage is above Kisame via only using on-screen feats.

Actually no. Onoki beats Kisame by feats. Ay and Gaara can also beat him depending on the conditions. But I won't go in depth since that's off topic.

furthermore, Kage = strongest from that village. <<<<<<< This law has only been broken by team 7. No one else in the manga has broken the implied law of Kage being the strongest in the village. Furthermore, they are supposed to be the strongest ninja alive. Hence the name they got "STrongest team" when they teamed up against Madara.

As someone already mentioned, Killer bee is definitely stronger than Ay. So that point is kind of moot.

Again, the only thing that makes people doubt is the fact there is no base. If there was a base like there is in One piece with Haki and its power and etc. Then Naruto-verse would have clear ranking system of powers of people.

I understand what you are saying, but you need to understand that ranking and hype is not everything in Naruto. It's the same with the fights. The fights in Naruto are more like Pokemon(as opposed to say, DBZ), where the matchup can determine who wins. It's possible for one shinobi to be a bad matchup for another one, and hence beat them. However they might be weaker overall.

Itachi can solo Hashirama dependent on the scenario.... However, there should be something that says Itachi has no chance at all. But there isn't now is there.

Except that Itachi cannot solo a full powered Hashirama, regardless of what the scenario is. Not a good example.

Furthermore, where did you get that my entire premise of the thread is based on a side example? . If that was the premise, i would've made a thread based on that, and not on the fact that Naruto-verse has no BASE for its fighting.

Fair enough. I was pointing out that those were some of your main examples. The point is, rankings and hype are a bit important, but not the be all end all in this manga when it comes to fights.(team 7 are but one example) Naruto is simply different from OP in that regard.

 

[Avani]

Maybe its late, maybe I just dont get what you're saying.

So you are saying OP has its own on screen and off screen feats attributed to each character? I'm not sure what you mean by Base and Haki. As I've never watched OP I really can't even makes heads or tails of this devil fruit thing, lol.

Devil fruit - special ability any normal person can get a relevant fruit out of blue anytime writer wants to power them up. The curse along with it is that they won't be able to swim anymore and there is a certain element ( superman style) they are weak against.

Haki - you can consider as similar to strong chakra abilities. Die hard OP fans would never except it of course. For it's explained as will power made into a spiritual form increasing the user's speed and/or power etc. Still:

1) It's a form of energy.
2) People can train themselves and use it if they can awaken it.
3) Users gain enhanced powers when used.
4) Though it's not always that visible but it can be or at least is felt.
5) Some have more powerful energy than others and are gifted with special hakis.

Logia class of Devil Fruits are considered as the most powerful ones since those who eat them eventually turns into an indestructible being. The user can totally change the form of his body to dodge enemy attacks or create an unavoidable attack. Only those who can use “haki” can inflict damage to Logia Devil Fruit users. And stronger the haki better counter attack.

Either way Narutos style is suppose to work like a constant one-ups-manship, so some low lever nin (Naruto as an example) can surprise and shock the obvious larger or more powerful foe. Something that you couldn't do in DBZ. Your cheap trick is just going to make Cell mad... or Android 17 to glare or smirk slighly.

OP is an adventure manga with many characters. Did I say many- we can say that again. They are on an adventure- literally a journey for adventure. Of course they are going from one place to another and the verse is constantly expanding. It's been ongoing for 18 years and most OP fans claim it will go on for another 18 years. But the plot itself is moving at a slow pace and no not all have same number of feats as the main crew and the member who can match the SH crew would lessen as the manga reaches towards the end. They are growing fast yet Nami is already visibly behind if you can't number of feat by fighting abilities.


So of course, it does show case more fights than Naruto but Naruto fights are usually more systematic. And the thread maker forgets Shikamaru beat Hidan using more wit and planning. Neji was able to defeat the much stronger sound nin though at the risk of his life. Kisame was defeated by Gai. Itachi' genjutsu does need equivalent strong power or at least a partner to break it. Few could match Itachi so it didn't happen. Obito and Itachi did consider each other a hindrance but both avoided fight probably because it was going to be a close fight due to their respective skills. Killer Bee broke it because he was a Jinchuriki.

In OP too only certain level of people with relevant type of Haki can fight against the expert Logia users. Only special people can learn and use any type of Haki, be it Color of Observation, Color of Armaments or Color of the Conquering King, no matter if the first two are technically available to anyone. That's awakening it usually when they are in a pinch but want something bad enough and have strong will power.( almost like sharingan)

Of course the verses are different and they are created and used in each verse with slight differences.

So, I am not sure either what thread makers is complaining about. People shouldn't be comparing it in the first place.

 

[Eternal Sage]

The main problem is that naruto is highly inconsistent

 

[silmarill]

I get your point. But Haki is not always indefinite. Take Vergo for example. His Haki (or base) was a lot more powerful yet he still lost to Law who has a superior DF. Same for Luffy Pré TS , without haki he overpowered people with haki with just his physical strength alone.
But I understand what u are trying to say. I always had that feeling with Naruto as well.

 

[KingHashirama]

Nah I'm not new. Dbz watched and re watched numerous times.

Bleach same

Op- seem too child like IMO

But what I mean by schemes is....

1. Based upon what ur saying. Madara and itachi etc should have never died

Itachi due to sickness but theoretically should never lose

Only one point needed

Each fighting anime has their own style. . own base to fighting

In naruto the base I see is determination and will power

Dbz. Just fight stronger people or be a sayian

Bleach. Become one with ur zampacto (mybad)

But keep in mind I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing due to I understand the post

Ok tell me this. What makes sure that Hashirama / Madara are on another level from someone like Shisui/itachi/trollkage (2nd mizukage)? nothing... Zilch.

I get your point. But Haki is not always indefinite. Take Vergo for example. His Haki (or base) was a lot more powerful yet he still lost to Law who has a superior DF. Same for Luffy Pré TS , without haki he overpowered people with haki with just his physical strength alone.
But I understand what u are trying to say. I always had that feeling with Naruto as well.

Doesn't law also have haki also? Thought Kidd/law/drake/luffy all these guys had haki at this point.

Also, yea Haki isn't a 100% gaurantee. But i mean if you were to say "law can just cut up shanks and win, despite shanks being THE TOP TEIR character", i can counter that by saying, his Haki counters law's ability.

Also, I thought Sanji beat Vergo. X_X wtf lol i must've missed alot =x

So of course, it does show case more fights than Naruto but Naruto fights are usually more systematic. And the thread maker forgets Shikamaru beat Hidan using more wit and planning. Neji was able to defeat the much stronger sound nin though at the risk of his life. Kisame was defeated by Gai. Itachi' genjutsu does need equivalent strong power or at least a partner to break it. Few could match Itachi so it didn't happen. Obito and Itachi did consider each other a hindrance but both avoided fight probably because it was going to be a close fight due to their respective skills. Killer Bee broke it because he was a Jinchuriki.

In OP too only certain level of people with relevant type of Haki can fight against the expert Logia users. Only special people can learn and use any type of Haki, be it Color of Observation, Color of Armaments or Color of the Conquering King, no matter if the first two are technically available to anyone. That's awakening it usually when they are in a pinch but want something bad enough and have strong will power.( almost like sharingan)

Of course the verses are different and they are created and used in each verse with slight differences.

So, I am not sure either what thread makers is complaining about. People shouldn't be comparing it in the first place.

The thread maker is complaining about the fact NAruto has nothing that determines who is top teir who isn't. And the thread isn't focused on the manga , cause i have no problem claiming Sakura to be above all akatsuki right now except Nagato. But can i prove it? no. Why? Because kishimoto neither shows the feats , and he neither has a base in the manga, that can allow me to say "alrighty since she is top teir , she automatically has enhance _______, which already makes her on her level."


Your post seems to be as if you are getting defensive because i brought up something that NAruto-verse is missing, but everyone else has.

In dbz = power level = stronger person.
in one piece = stronger people = stronger haki = lay waste to people below them, even if they have crazy DF powers.
In Bleach = Bigger reitsu = STronger person = can counter most techniques there.


Anything to go off of in Naruto-verse? nope nothing at all.


Shikamaru had to pre-plan stuff, and beat hidan with assistance. There is nothing that says Shikamaru > Hidan. Gai beat a Kisame that didn't even have his full power...

Itach's genjutsu = "impossible to break" for those who are lower tier than him. Not for people who are times stronger than him. But there is nothing in the manga that suggests Hashirama can simply snap the genjutsu.

Is there any base that says "Gokage are the strongest people from the villages because of _____". In one piece there is already a law in the manga that allows the reader to determine the strength and predict a more accurate decision regarding the strength of the characters.

NOTE: I'm not b*tching and moaning about anything here. Simply trying to discuss.

Actually no. Onoki beats Kisame by feats. Ay and Gaara can also beat him depending on the conditions. But I won't go in depth since that's off topic.
As someone already mentioned, Killer bee is definitely stronger than Ay. So that point is kind of moot.
I understand what you are saying, but you need to understand that ranking and hype is not everything in Naruto. It's the same with the fights. The fights in Naruto are more like Pokemon(as opposed to say, DBZ), where the matchup can determine who wins. It's possible for one shinobi to be a bad matchup for another one, and hence beat them. However they might be weaker overall.
Except that Itachi cannot solo a full powered Hashirama, regardless of what the scenario is. Not a good example.
Fair enough. I was pointing out that those were some of your main examples. The point is, rankings and hype are a bit important, but not the be all end all in this manga when it comes to fights.(team 7 are but one example) Naruto is simply different from OP in that regard.

- Tsukuyomi off the bat -

- Hashirama GG- Please tell me hashirama's counter that is in the manga. O_O oh wait there is none. But simply avoiding it....


Here is the thing everyone likes to claim ranking is only "bit important".. since when is it not everything in naruto-verse?

Tsunade the current Hokage was the strongest shinobi of the leaf when she became Hokage.
Minato was the strongest shinobi.
Tobirama was the strongest shinobi
Hiruzen was the strongest Shinobi.
Hashirama was the strongest shinobi.
Sorry people like to take few exceptions like the main character or upcoming developing character and say "it doesn't apply to anyone". No NAruto does have a ranking system regarding weakest to the strongest.

GOKAGE = strongest ninja , despite the 3 in team 7.



Furthermore, no Ay> killer B when it comes to the manga. Why people think Killer B > Ay? Because of the on-screen feats, that show B will annihilate Ay. But Ay who knows more about B's power than us, doesn't acknowledge B as the stronger one. Nor does Killer B acknowledge himself as the stronger one.

Fairy Type counters Dragon Type. They are immune to Dragon type moves.

Some random lightning using fodder(Lv 1) isn't beating Deidara(Lv 100).

Edit: As far as Genjutsu goes, there are counters. Genjutsu is used in two ways, control and illusion.
Illusion is easily broken. Control seem to work only on weaker Ninjas.

Pokemon at this point is an ulimate disgrace to fighting animes.... inconsistency is surreal.


Pokemon does not have a ranking system within the manga to determine who is top teir and who is not....

I understand what you're saying OP

If this was one peice logic

The base meaning

Genin<Chuunin<Jonin<Kage

So in One Piece there is no way a Genin could beat a Jonin

But in Naruto a Genin (Naruto) can destroy a Jonin (Neji)

Naruto also has another character role " the protagonist". Someone who always/usually is the exception.

And yea, Genma destroys any sound 4 ninja on an individual basis. Feats say he doesn't.

A base, really makes things too overly predictable.. It's better that Naruto doesn't have that A > B > C logic going on...
It's extremely interesting and it makes you really think that Shinobi ALL have a chance of defeating another Shinobi no matter how slim the chance might be. Hell, even Konohamaru killed a Path... It wasn't battle oriented but then again, he's a Genin to a reanimated corpse with 1/6 of a God's power in Naraka Path.

"A weapon's strength or weakness is dependent on the user's ability to use it. An expert with a pebble can still beat a novice with a shuriken." -Black Zetsu

it already has an A>B>C logic, all manga that are like Naruto have this logic. Even in real life.

"konohamaru killed a path", how come you forgot the help he got from ebisu? O_O

 

[Avani]

The main problem is that naruto is highly inconsistent

The main problem is that people have forgotten half the story and think they are too many inconsistencies when there are not. Plot no jutsu and a few retcons but only fewer plot holes.

No someone not agreeing the way story is handles is not called plot hole. People may not like it and lose interest because of it and may complain but that only makes it less interesting or dull at most.

They read it cursorily, and jump at the forums to complain rather than take a look in some older chapter. Most of them don't even know where to look for. A lot of people just read the complaints at forum and assume it to be true. Just a few days ago even someone in staff claimed Kaguya was Indra and Asura's mom! We searched and ultimately it turned out he had read NB thread about such a theory and somehow mistook it as what happened in the manga and was mad about it. ~_~

 

[KingHashirama]

The main problem is that people have forgotten half the story and think they are too many inconsistencies when there are not. Plot no jutsu and a few retcons but only fewer plot holes.

No someone not agreeing the way story is handles is not called plot hole. People may not like it and lose interest because of it and may complain but that only makes it less interesting or dull at most.

They read it cursorily, and jump at the forums to complain rather than take a look in some older chapter. Most of them don't even know where to look for. A lot of people just read the complaints at forum and assume it to be true. Just a few days ago even someone in staff claimed Kaguya was Indra and Asura's mom! We searched and ultimately it turned out he had read NB thread about such a theory and somehow mistook it as what happened in the manga and was mad about it. ~_~

But naruto-verse has 0 fighting base.

There is nothing that is guranteed that a higher ranker will have a more of, despite the ranks being oragnized by who is the stronger one.

How can Genma beat a sound 4 ninja? Who the f*ck knows.

 

[Jericho Senju]

But naruto-verse has 0 fighting base.

There is nothing that is guranteed that a higher ranker will have a more of, despite the ranks being oragnized by who is the stronger one.

How can Genma beat a sound 4 ninja? Who the f*ck knows.

Buster Douglas also beat Mike Tyson. Naruto Vers was built around the idea that anyone under the right circumstance can win. Using the Kage ranking system as a base for power is missing the point of the manga. Kages are not the most powerful ninjas but the most respected.

 

[KingHashirama]

Buster Douglas also beat Mike Tyson. Naruto Vers was built around the idea that anyone under the right circumstance can win. Using the Kage ranking system as a base for power is missing the point of the manga. Kages are not the most powerful ninjas but the most respected.

"the 4 emperors are the most respected pirates and the ones with grand armies, not the most powerful pirates"
" The admirals are the most respected marines, not the most powerful ones"
"the captains are the mos respected shinigami, not the more powerful ones from their division".

^^^^ I cna make up excuses for any ranking system, that however, doesn't cancel off the fact that Naruto-verse indeed does have a ranking system , that is based on power, in that universe. Only exceptions have been the main characters. I already have proved my point on this in previous posts.

MAybe Buster douglas got stronger than Tyson?

Buster: Total fights 46
Wins 38
Wins by KO 25
Losses 6
Draws 1

 

[KisuneUchiha]

Now this is really something that should be discussed. You see NAruto-verse, there is the problematic issue that NAruto-verse has no "Base" for its fighting.

Let me put this in perspective through one piece:

In one piece you have Devil fruits. The abilities of some devil fruits are OP, that if we were to do simple "on-screen" feats , the devil fruit people would merck the floor. However, the one factor that stops crazy bs like " logic user will merck the floor with someone" from happening is HAKI. So no matter if the fans try to create BS scenarios or anything like that , as long as someone has HAKI they will be able to counter a devil fruit.

See in one piece, a fanboy of lets say Doflamingo can come up to me and say "yo dofla can whip shanks or etc with just controlling them or slicing them and etc" , but all i ahve to do is say "nope, sorry Shanks Haki is on another level."

Because in one piece top teir with Haki = High level Haki = Able to o****er high level Devil fruits.

^^^ Thats a good base. Naruto has nothing like that.


Applying that to Naruto:

In Naruto we have genjutsu. OP technique. People like Itachi and others who in the manga are about mid-tier in powers have on screen feats of genjutsu techniques that they would solo people if we only talk about on-screen feats.

Sure we have the BS crap with Gai making a fighting style to counter genjutsu users where he fights with close eyes. But here is the battle with Itachi and Gai from on-screen feats:

Gai: I have invented a blind fighting style -closes eyes- so i can't be caught in a genjutsu.
Itachi: Thats nice - Amaterasu on Gai- But never take eyes off of your opponent newbie.

^^^ See that. Kishimoto gave a natural way to counter genjutsu, and that was to disrupt your own chakra (Something naruto tried doing, but Itachi stated he was too weak.) However when was the last time he showed someone doing this? oh wait... he never showed it.

Another example, The Gokage are above or equal to Itachi/Kisame/Danzo however with on-screen feats, We can't even say they are. Because there is no base that says "High level ninja have high level reactions or etc".


Conclusion:

Naruto-verse not having a base in fights, is what leads to the misconceptions of who is stronger, and who should be ranked where. Kishimoto, needs to clear this up. He can portray Sakura on the level of EMS Sasuke and Naruto and then not give her feats that don't even allow her to surpass Itachi. But he shouldn't need to show all feats for us to claim shes above their level..... there should be a base set up for it. But there is none, and that leads to these BS arguments.

They showed Ohnoki disrupting Ay's chakra to snap him out of Madara's genjutsu