[Discussion] Naruto & Sasuke | Pain & Itachi

Shinato

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This is not a fanboy thread, I will discuss and debate for both characters equally.​

Me and a friend of mine started discussing Naruto and Sasuke's equality, and because of that we started discussing previous battle these two characters have had in the series. We stopped a little at two fights that altered the two characters a great deal, the first being Itachi vs Sasuke and the other being Naruto vs Pain. These two fights carries a lot of similarities to each other and actually places both our main characters at equal grounds in many ways. I will start with the earliest one on the timeline, Itachi vs Sasuke.



1. Itachi vs Sasuke
Sasuke's Goal: Defeat and kill Itachi.​
Itachi's Goal: Incapacitate Sasuke and remove Orochimaru from him.​

Now this fight has made two things happen with the fanbase, firstly it made a lot of Sasuke haters claim it as evidence that Sasuke is "weak" and secondly it made a lot of Itachi fanboys/girls claim it as evidence that Itachi is the best. Funny that both of these two points are made out of the same statement. People say that Sasuke would easily have lost if Itachi went serious on him, even though I mean that Sasuke would have lost in that case, I don't think it would have been easy for Itachi. The main reason people say this is because Obito commented that Itachi planned the entire fight, but we know that is wrong. First of all, Itachi had no knowledge of Kirin or how much of Orochimaru's jutsus Sasuke was able to preform.

Another thing, Itachi himself even commented that he would have died if he didn't use Susano'o and he had it activated for as long as he could and he didn't reach Sasuke before it turned off. Meaning that he used Susano'o to the extent he could and he wouldn't do that if his goal was to survive. ( Meaning that if he aimed to win the battle he would most likely not use Susano'o for more than a couple of seconds as a defence. ) Anyways, I am rambling on here.

As I said, if Itachi wanted to win, he would most likely have won with a great deal of injury. But again, Itachi's goal was to remove Orochimaru from Sasuke and that was the only thing he planned in the fight. He planned to remove Orochimaru and die, everything else was more or less random. ( No human is able to predict an entire battle without pre-knowledge of their opponent. )

Fight Conclusion: Sasuke won because Itachi's goal was not to kill Sasuke. But rather to remove Orochimaru.



2. Naruto vs Pain
Naruto's Goal: Defeat and if need be, kill Pain/Nagato.​
Nagato's Goal: Incapacitate Naruto without killing him and extract the Kyuubi.​

Pain/Nagato's goal was to retrieve Naruto without killing him, meaning that he couldn't use all he had against Naruto or else he would have killed him off. However, besides Pain's goal he had a different reason for fighting Naruto. Nagato wished to fight the Kyuubi and therefore he wanted to drive that power out of Naruto. Halfway through this fight, Naruto loses and is saved because of two reasons; one being Hinata and the other being the Kyuubi's chakra taking over him. Here is the panel where Naruto first lost:

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If Pain wanted to kill Naruto then he could've easily have done it here, he had captured Naruto already. But because of Hinata's actions the Kyuubi's chakra took over Naruto and the battle continued. Because of this Naruto was able to beat Pain in the end after being save by Minato. Here is another thing, this battle fully supports what Hagoromo said in the later chapters about Ashura and Naruto not being able to do much alone but they are very strong with others. ( Naruto was helped by the toads, Hinata, Kurama and Minato all in one fight )

Fight Conclusion: Naruto won because Pain needed him alive and didn't have it as a goal to kill Naruto. He needed Naruto alive to extract the Kyuubi from him.



3. Discuss!
As you can see, Naruto and Sasuke both had the same goals in these fights. While Pain/Nagato and Itachi had the same goals as well. Sasuke and Naruto wanted to defeat their opponent while Itachi and Pain wanted to incapacitate and remove something from their opponent. Another thing to note is that Nagato/Pain is stronger than a sick Itachi. However, Naruto got help in his fight, while Sasuke did it all alone. Another thing to notice is that Kabuto placed Itachi and Nagato in the same duo team, meaning that he valued them equals in some way. I doubt it was in power, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kabuto valued Itachi and Nagato as having equal chance of beating each other. ( The reason I say that he equalled them in some way is that Kabuto is smart and he wanted to create the most efficient teams there is. A team is only useful if each team member can keep up with the other. )
 

take it easy

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1. toad part of naruto power
2. kurama not really helped naruto
3. pain used all his arsenal against naruto
 

Shinato

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1. toad part of naruto power
2. kurama not really helped naruto
3. pain used all his arsenal against naruto

So the fact that they fought for Naruto is his own power? Their blades, weapons and skills obtained through a life time is all part of Naruto's power? No, a summon is a helper.

Kurama exhausted Nagato to the level that he was barely able to fight anymore, that is a lot of help.

Pain didn't, he didn't directly use the "Death God" or a massive Shinra Tensei against him. ( That and among other things. )
 

ugh

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Nagato stated Nagato was his 2nd strongest Edo apart from Madara.
 

ugh

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Kabuto* stated, my bad
 

Shinato

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Nagato stated Nagato was his 2nd strongest Edo apart from Madara.

Oh gee, Nagato stated himself? ( I know you meant Kabuto. :p )

Anyways, Kabuto stated that Itachi was the most valuable Edo Tensei he had.
 

ugh

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Need sleep o_O

Goodbye base. for the night .... behueheuehueheu
 

phantomlord22

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sasuke couldn't defeat itachi back then, If itachi was only serious

naruto had lots of knowledge about pain which came from sacrificing of jiraiya and kakashi
naruto said himself to itachi that If it wasn't for kyuubi rampage he couldn't scape CT
naruto was fully restored, while nagato was almost dead, and as soon as the tendo power came back he defeated sage-mode naruot very easy if you ask me
 

Obítō1

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Nagato did't try to kill naruto ?

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ministerC4

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With pain 85% of victory for N & S but throw out pain and solo king takes it 100%
Didn't we clear up he's solo king :p
 

mohdzarif

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Nice parallels and I like it. *_*

Each of these fights was the most significant for both Naruto and Sasuke. Each became the turning point for their characters.

1. toad part of naruto power
2. kurama not really helped naruto
3. pain used all his arsenal against naruto

I know that u mean Naruto used Kuchiyose but it's not. It was Ma who summoned the toads along with Naruto. So the toads were not parts of Naruto's power because he didn't summon them.

The OP answered the other two.
 

Shinato

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Nagato did't try to kill naruto ?

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No, Nagato needed Naruto alive. If he had killed Naruto then Akatsuki's plan would be halted for the time it take for a Bijuu to "revive" itself.
 

Harry Balzac

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No LOL. Kabuto/KISHIMOTO already clarified Itachi was a notch above Nagato (overall) . You people need to start reading. It's not all about the pretty pictures.
 
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Shinato

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No LOL. Kabuto/KISHIMOTO already clarified Itachi was a notch above Nagato (overall) . You people need to start reading. It's not all about the pretty pictures.

Could you please link me to an interview where Kishimoto said Nagato was weaker? A link to the panel where Kabuto calls Itachi overall a stronger shinobi would be useful to.
 

Harry Balzac

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Like I said you're clearly not familiar with what you read. You can find it during the chapter Itachi uses Kotoamatsukami. And to further reinforce it, kabuto comments again how itachi is his greatest edo tensei. Add them up.
 

Shinato

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Like I said you're clearly not familiar with what you read. You can find it during the chapter Itachi uses Kotoamatsukami. And to further reinforce it, kabuto comments again how itachi is his greatest edo tensei. Add them up.

Itachi's intelligence got the better of Nagato, however Itachi may or may not have been able to destroy the Gravitation Pull orb alone. ( We can't say for sure as he has only destroyed it once, and that was with help from Naruto and Killer Bee. ) Not to mention that during that fight Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto and Edo Tensei's tend to fight better when they aren't controlled. Beyond that, Kabuto called Madara the best and ultimate Edo Tensei and later he called Itachi the greatest of them all. Not only is Kabuto's word not proof as he is a liar, but he changed his opinion more than once. ( Maybe because he can't really decide upon one or perhaps he is just lying his ass off again. )

Another thing. Kabuto only called Itachi the greatest after he broke out of Edo Tensei, which is what surprised Kabuto. That being said, Itachi breaking out of the Edo Tensei was luck and not something he did or planned. So again, Nagato and Itachi are overall equals in battle, with both of them having their strengths and weaknesses.
 
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