Intel: Manga
Distance: 100m
Location: Desert.
Prep: 0
Equipment: Standard, including sealing tags for Gaara.
Intent: Serious & to kill.
Naruto and Sasuke are Pre-Rikudo power up. Gaara is War-Arc However in the last two battles Gaara can summon Shukaku.
1) Deidara, Sasori, Konan, Hidan, Kakuzu, 6POP and Kisame.
2) Killer Bee, A(3rd & 4th), Darui, Kinkaku & Ginkaku. *team cloud has all the treasure tools*
3) Itachi, Nagato, Obito(Pre-war)
4) Minato(Alive but is a Jin), Kakashi, Guy *8 gates restricted.*
5) Edo Madara
6) Obito(War-Arc, has 6 paths), Zetsu, Tobi(Yamato)
7) Kabuto, and Sannin *Edo Tensei restricted*
8) Forth Kazekage, 2nd & 5th Mizukages, 2nd & 3rd Tsuchikages, 2nd & 3rd Hokage.
9) SM Hashirama
10) SM Madara with 1 rinnegan *assume SM can sense Limbo clone and can damage *
11) Juubito *Naruto's team has 1 min prep.*
Hashirama puts the team down mid-high diff. They can't tank Shinsuusenju nor can they overpower it nor can they destroy it since Naruto's best offense can be tossed right back at him or simply overpowered as mentioned before.
10) SM Madara with 1 rinnegan *assume SM can sense Limbo clone and can damage *
Limbo is useless then. It won't get past the Avatars nor will it take Naruto and Sasuke's attacks :lol. Team obliterates. Susanoo protects Kurama from the Mazo, and then they obliterate Madara and his V3 Susanoo. Only way he wins is if he can use Shinsuusenju.
Juubito obviously shits. Why would you think they can win this one?
-Sword of Nunoboko might've killed them had Obito not wavered.
-They have no counter to Bijuu Dama.
-They have no counter to the full force of the Shinju.
I honestly don't see Gaara's importance in the match ups where Naruto and Sasuke can't win on their own.
Hashirama puts the team down mid-high diff. They can't tank Shinsuusenju nor can they overpower it nor can they destroy it since Naruto's best offense can be tossed right back at him or simply overpowered as mentioned before.
Limbo is useless then. It won't get past the Avatars nor will it take Naruto and Sasuke's attacks :lol. Team obliterates. Susanoo protects Kurama from the Mazo, and then they obliterate Madara and his V3 Susanoo. Only way he wins is if he can use Shinsuusenju.
Juubito obviously shits. Why would you think they can win this one?
-Sword of Nunoboko might've killed them had Obito not wavered.
-They have no counter to Bijuu Dama.
-They have no counter to the full force of the Shinju.
I honestly don't see Gaara's importance in the match ups where Naruto and Sasuke can't win on their own.
Some of these I think are low diff, I just want to see if any would Disagree.
The reason Gaara is here is because Gaara can fight inside of the an Avatar and/or Susanoo withought being hindered.
Hashirama barely beat Madara. Him and Kurama. What we have here is Naruto and Sasuke as replacement. They may both be inferior however a huge difference is senjutsu on top of the fact that they have Gaara for added defense and offence. Not only that but teamwork is better. Naruto and Sasuke can sync element attack and Naruto's Chakra enhances his teammates.
It'd be high diff but I can see them winning.
As for Juubito, I forgot about the Shinju, yeah they get beat.
Some of these I think are low diff, I just want to see if any would Disagree.
The reason Gaara is here is because Gaara can fight inside of the an Avatar and/or Susanoo withought being hindered.
Hashirama barely beat Madara. Him and Kurama. What we have here is Naruto and Sasuke as replacement. They may both be inferior however a huge difference is senjutsu on top of the fact that they have Gaara for added defense and offence. Not only that but teamwork is better. Naruto and Sasuke can sync element attack and Naruto's Chakra enhances his teammates.
It'd be high diff but I can see them winning.
As for Juubito, I forgot about the Shinju, yeah they get beat.
Yeah, a Full Kurama who output far more than BSM Naruto w/ Half Kurama has ever output on his own and a Perfect Susanoo that is above Sasuke's. Gaara's defense is useless as it adds nothing Hashirama can't power through, and the offense is the same way. His sand can't do anything to Mokujin let alone SS, even if he gets a cloak. (which will only increase the amount of sand he can control)
Naruto and Sasuke's elemental attacks don't have any place in this battle when their strongest attacks (PS slash and BD) won't even be enough to take out SS.
Yeah, a Full Kurama who output far more than BSM Naruto w/ Half Kurama has ever output on his own and a Perfect Susanoo that is above Sasuke's. Gaara's defense is useless as it adds nothing Hashirama can't power through, and the offense is the same way. His sand can't do anything to Mokujin let alone SS, even if he gets a cloak. (which will only increase the amount of sand he can control)
Naruto and Sasuke's elemental attacks don't have any place in this battle when their strongest attacks (PS slash and BD) won't even be enough to take out SS.
All full kurama did was spam TBB, why is it that Naruto can't do the same? I fail to see what feats make full kurama superior to BSM. Amateratsu would incinerate any wood. Gaara can sink anything stepping on sand. Gaara could literally trip Mokujin or SS. On top of that Naruto could make clones that would dance around Mokujin or SS with their speed. You underestimate Sands defensive capabilities. Hashirama only does blunt damage blunt damage is the worse kind of damage you want to use against sand.
Take this for example
Lee in base casually accomplishes this
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Gaara took hits from him in not only in base but in even more powerful forms. Even after a barrage of those hits, Gaara won that battle unharmed.
The sand will absorb kinetic energy. Gaara is surrounded by sand, and can cover the Susanoo cover Kurama avatar. If you compare that to the defense Madara and Kurama presented it is equal if not greater.
A HUGE difference is the one armor is protecting Kurama and Madara, making it single layered. On the other hand sand is protecting susanoo protecting kurama avatar protecting the team. That is a triple layered defense.
Even if their defense is destroyed they can just get back up and put the armor back up.
With Naruto's and Sasuke's(V3, not even PS) armor's separated, they took on Obito's body slam which created a massive crater, then got back up put it up again.
All full kurama did was spam TBB, why is it that Naruto can't do the same? I fail to see what feats make full kurama superior to BSM. Amateratsu would incinerate any wood. Gaara can sink anything stepping on sand. Gaara could literally trip Mokujin or SS. On top of that Naruto could make clones that would dance around Mokujin or SS with their speed. You underestimate Sands defensive capabilities. Hashirama only does blunt damage blunt damage is the worse kind of damage you want to use against sand.
Take this for example
Lee in base casually accomplishes this
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Gaara took hits from him in not only in base but in even more powerful forms. Even after a barrage of those hits, Gaara won that battle unharmed.
The sand will absorb kinetic energy. Gaara is surrounded by sand, and can cover the Susanoo cover Kurama avatar. If you compare that to the defense Madara and Kurama presented it is equal if not greater.
A HUGE difference is the one armor is protecting Kurama and Madara, making it single layered. On the other hand sand is protecting susanoo protecting kurama avatar protecting the team. That is a triple layered defense.
Even if their defense is destroyed they can just get back up and put the armor back up.
With Naruto's and Sasuke's(V3, not even PS) armor's separated, they took on Obito's body slam which created a massive crater, then got back up put it up again.
Naruto's best feat is spamming 5 small Bijuu Dama at once. Full Kurama used 12 large BD at once. Amaterasu incinerates nothing when it can't even incinerate White Zetsu.
Not going to bother with Mokujin since it's not enough to win this, but when Gaara's sand is strong enough to overpower and topple something that towers over Mountains, then we can talk. When Gaara can sink something that large we can talk then. Like most matches of this nature, the limits of the team being argued for is ignored.
What's even more hilarious is that you are actually comparing Rock Lee's physical hits to Shinsuusenju of all things. :lol
Prove that Gaara's Sand will make Naruto and Sasuke's defense equal or greater to Madara's Susanoo when Gaara's Sand's best feat is tanking C3, and C3 is nothing to Bijuu Dama alone, let alone an attack that matches 12 giant BD. Triple layered defense isn't evidence that it's stronger.
They can't get up if Hashirama squashes them in the process of obliterating their defenses.
Naruto's best feat is spamming 5 small Bijuu Dama at once. Full Kurama used 12 large BD at once. Amaterasu incinerates nothing when it can't even incinerate White Zetsu.
Not going to bother with Mokujin since it's not enough to win this, but when Gaara's sand is strong enough to overpower and topple something that towers over Mountains, then we can talk. When Gaara can sink something that large we can talk then. Like most matches of this nature, the limits of the team being argued for is ignored.
What's even more hilarious is that you are actually comparing Rock Lee's physical hits to Shinsuusenju of all things. :lol
Prove that Gaara's Sand will make Naruto and Sasuke's defense equal or greater to Madara's Susanoo when Gaara's Sand's best feat is tanking C3, and C3 is nothing to Bijuu Dama alone, let alone an attack that matches 12 giant BD. Triple layered defense isn't evidence that it's stronger.
They can't get up if Hashirama squashes them in the process of obliterating their defenses.
So because he done 5 he can only do 5 as his max? That's a bit ridiculous. Literally all he has to do is continue to use more TBB. Nothing suggest that he is limited in that regard besides stamina, and he has plenty of stamina. Kurama is still Kurama even if he has been spit in half, he would still know how to use the same attack he once done before. I'm simply aplly the feats of a character to the same character. Unless you have evidence that states 5 is the absolute limit then it still stands. Amaterasu won't incinerate by itself, I'm talking about with combination of other attacks. It isn't about the "strength" of Gaara's sand it is the fact that he controls the battle field.
Take this for example.
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I'm not ignoring their limits, I'm simply using logic. Certain characters may not have been in specific situations, but they would clearly do what clearly can be done.
I'm not comparing lee punches to SS, come on man that's insulting that you think I would. My point is with rock lee destructive capabilities Gaara was still left un harmed. Surviving hits is one thing being completely unharmed is another. Gaara sand is well suited to handle blunt damage. The sand itself can take massive damage, but the one protected by the sand can take little to no damage. The sand itself absorbs damage.
What you acknowledge is the fact that Gaara defended against C3 and his defense did not waiver, but not only that, but Gaara can continuously layer his sand. Then you have Naruto and Sasuke. Who individually tanked a slam so powerful it created a massive crater. Sasuke was just in V3 at the time. PS armor obviously much higher than V3, while V3 is comparable to Kurama Avatar in durability.
Kurama avatar itself has great durability.
Was able to take on a Juubi beam(the juubi beam that plows right through bijuudamas)
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^^^that covered^^^^ covered by Susanoo with higher durability than that, covered by a sand that absorbs much of the damage.
Yeah they could replicate what Madara did against Hashirama, but better. Hashirama didn't even destroy all of Madara's armor. Hashirama has to get past the sand, the susanoo, and the Kurama avatar.
So because he done 5 he can only do 5 as his max? That's a bit ridiculous. Literally all he has to do is continue to use more TBB. Nothing suggest that he is limited in that regard besides stamina, and he has plenty of stamina. Kurama is still Kurama even if he has been spit in half, he would still know how to use the same attack he once done before. I'm simply aplly the feats of a character to the same character. Unless you have evidence that states 5 is the absolute limit then it still stands. Amaterasu won't incinerate by itself, I'm talking about with combination of other attacks. It isn't about the "strength" of Gaara's sand it is the fact that he controls the battle field.
That is exactly what it means. When you have the evidence that he can use more at one time then we can talk. Let's not talk about stamina when every Bijuu has the stamina to do what Kurama did yet Gyuki could only use 4 while Kurama could spit out 5. Don't act like stamina is the only factor.
If you are going to reply to me, debate properly. You made the claim that BSM Naruto can spam BD as large as Full Kurama's, in the same amount. So you have to prove it.
I'm not ignoring their limits, I'm simply using logic. Certain characters may not have been in specific situations, but they would clearly do what clearly can be done.
If you were using logic then you wouldn't be saying things like Sand helps them block something Madara's PS couldn't block, and that Gaara sinks Shinsuusenju. :lol
I'm not comparing lee punches to SS, come on man that's insulting that you think I would. My point is with rock lee destructive capabilities Gaara was still left un harmed. Surviving hits is one thing being completely unharmed is another. Gaara sand is well suited to handle blunt damage. The sand itself can take massive damage, but the one protected by the sand can take little to no damage. The sand itself absorbs damage.
Thus you are comparing Lee's punches to SS. Sand, or any other barrier, obviously only absorbs as much damage as it possibly can before the leftover energy gets past the sand and hits the user. You sound ridiculous claiming that sand absorbs the impact of SS and leaves Naruto and Sasuke unharmed when his sand isn't strong enough to block such an attack. When Gaara doesn't have Magatama rip through his battlefield sand shields, then we can talk about him blocking Bijuu Dama let alone an attack that matched 12 Bijuu Dama blades.
What you acknowledge is the fact that Gaara defended against C3 and his defense did not waiver, but not only that, but Gaara can continuously layer his sand. Then you have Naruto and Sasuke. Who individually tanked a slam so powerful it created a massive crater. Sasuke was just in V3 at the time. PS armor obviously much higher than V3, while V3 is comparable to Kurama Avatar in durability.
Unless you have any evidence of Gaara being able to create a shield stronger than what tanked C3, there is nothing to discuss when it comes to the amount of sand he can muster up for a defense. And the facepalm is for the rest of the post. :lol
Kurama avatar itself has great durability.
Was able to take on a Juubi beam(the juubi beam that plows right through bijuudamas)
^^^that covered^^^^ covered by Susanoo with higher durability than that, covered by a sand that absorbs much of the damage.[/QUOTE]
1. V3 Susanoo boosted with Senjutsu and Yin-Yang Kurama's chakra cloak. A v3 Susanoo that is just as durable as his Perfect Susanoo, as his Perfect Susanoo w/o boosts is canonically equal in durability to Naruto's Avatar. Shown in valley of the end, so don't dispute it.
2. That massive crater is nothing compared to the whole of Valley of the End, which was created by the impact that destroyed Madara's Susanoo.
3. Madara's PS>>>Sasuke's PS=Naruto's Avatar in durability. Madara's Susanoo only faltered from a blast that created VoTE while Naruto and Sasuke's individual Avatars cap out on Juubito's drop slam. Add them together and Hashirama's Chojo Kebutsu would still obliterate them, mainly because it can continue unhindered due to the team's inability to destroy the hands.
Yeah they could replicate what Madara did against Hashirama, but better. Hashirama didn't even destroy all of Madara's armor. Hashirama has to get past the sand, the susanoo, and the Kurama avatar.
That is exactly what it means. When you have the evidence that he can use more at one time then we can talk. Let's not talk about stamina when every Bijuu has the stamina to do what Kurama did yet Gyuki could only use 4 while Kurama could spit out 5. Don't act like stamina is the only factor.
If you are going to reply to me, debate properly. You made the claim that BSM Naruto can spam BD as large as Full Kurama's, in the same amount. So you have to prove it.
If you were using logic then you wouldn't be saying things like Sand helps them block something Madara's PS couldn't block, and that Gaara sinks Shinsuusenju. :lol
Thus you are comparing Lee's punches to SS. Sand, or any other barrier, obviously only absorbs as much damage as it possibly can before the leftover energy gets past the sand and hits the user. You sound ridiculous claiming that sand absorbs the impact of SS and leaves Naruto and Sasuke unharmed when his sand isn't strong enough to block such an attack. When Gaara doesn't have Magatama rip through his battlefield sand shields, then we can talk about him blocking Bijuu Dama let alone an attack that matched 12 Bijuu Dama blades.
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Unless you have any evidence of Gaara being able to create a shield stronger than what tanked C3, there is nothing to discuss when it comes to the amount of sand he can muster up for a defense. And the facepalm is for the rest of the post. :lol
1. V3 Susanoo boosted with Senjutsu and Yin-Yang Kurama's chakra cloak. A v3 Susanoo that is just as durable as his Perfect Susanoo, as his Perfect Susanoo w/o boosts is canonically equal in durability to Naruto's Avatar. Shown in valley of the end, so don't dispute it.
2. That massive crater is nothing compared to the whole of Valley of the End, which was created by the impact that destroyed Madara's Susanoo.
3. Madara's PS>>>Sasuke's PS=Naruto's Avatar in durability. Madara's Susanoo only faltered from a blast that created VoTE while Naruto and Sasuke's individual Avatars cap out on Juubito's drop slam. Add them together and Hashirama's Chojo Kebutsu would still obliterate them, mainly because it can continue unhindered due to the team's inability to destroy the hands.
Naruto can only make 5 BD, and Sasuke's PS is weaker than Madara's. Naruto's BD are
You claim I'm not debating properly as you commit a fallacy.
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam: (appeal to ignorance) the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true. This error in reasoning is often expressed with influential rhetoric.
I apply logic to my statement, you claim it can't be done simply because you haven't seen it. You put no logic behind why Kurama only can use at most 5 at a time.
2 things you fail to realize.
1. They weren't trying to go all out or match the Juubi with their TBB only to setup for the real plan. What could have spamming 12 TBB accomplished in that scenario?
2. Comparing the 8 tail's 4 TBB to Half kurama's 5 doesn't help as all the tailed beast below 9 are clearly far inferior to even just half kurama, as seen when Naruto match the combined power of 5 TBB with just one of his own.
I never said BSM would have TBB as large as Full kurama, my presumptuous mate, Full kurama may have a bigger TBB, but Naruto's is enhanced by Senjutsu, increasing the TBB power and sustainability.
It is logical to think Gaara sand can help block as Madara's Susanoo did indeed block SS as Kurama wasn't KO'ed seem mostly unharmed and Madara's Susanoo wasn't completely destroyed. When I say sink I don't mean the whole body of SS, but referring to what ever is necessary. I've already shown how manipulating the battle field helps against Titans.
Well it depends how you think I am comparing the punches. If it is damage output, No, If it the fact that they are punches and are blunt force then yes I am comparing the two. Their you go being presumptuous again. I am not saying that the sand will leave them unharmed, what is the point of the triple layered defense, if that I the case? I think you have a problem comprehending how sand defends individuals. That is why I bring up Lee. Sand isn't just simply like any defense. One can't simply where a suit of armor and take no damage from attacks. Gaara sand provides that because it absorbs the damages. Even if they break through that defense much of the power behind that attack will be gone. Essentially what Naruto's and Sasuke's defence has to take on will be less then that of what Madara has to take on, regardless of the fact that SS will pound on Gaara's sand. Sand dissipate's kinetic energy. What that means for lack of better words, is that the moment shinsusenju's punches lands on gaara's sand the punch is less effective. Normal shields don't do that, they simply take on what ever attack comes their way in hopes that the attack will be reflected or stopped,, sand shield is both weakening the attack and preventing the attack from getting through. That in it's self is layered defense. The sand is essentially protecting itself by reducing the kinectic energy and protecting the user by preventing the attack from getting through. The way to beat that defense to be dynamic. This is why planes are shaped the way they are. The friction cause by the air dissipates kinetic energy which causes it to go slower then it should in a vacuum(no air in a space). Also why chidori can get through Gaara's defense while a man who casually rips tree roots out the ground and has the 5th gate open could not get through Gaara's defense or even hurt him. The more sand the harder it is to get past that defense and the more kinetic energy dissipated. It's clear as day Madara's PS is more durable then Gaara's sand, but what it doesn't do is dissipate energy, only absorb it which will cause it to crack and eventually break which is the end of it's use. They have different properties thus should be accounted for. It isn't as black and white as you'd like it to be. A jutsu like chidori wouldn't work on Susanoo, but it would work on sand, however a hit from A would work on susanoo, but it was ineffective against sand. You use Yasamaganta as an example doesn't help your case. for to reasons
1. it was not blunt damage
2. it was not shown breaking through. Yes it created cracks in Doton but remember sand shield is malleable.
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Sure attacks may do similar damage, or block damage similarly, but there is more to take into account than what appears.
The shield he used against C3 in itself is already impressive, but we are talking about War-Arc Gaara, which means he is more thus can use more sand on top of the fact that Naruto would be enhancing his strength even further meaning he can use even more sand.
Yes the V3 susanoo was Senjutsu enhance and Bijuu chakra, but so was his PS. Be logical for a sec. Why would Naruto share his chakra with everyone in his Kurama avatar but not Sasuke? Clearly the susanoo over the avatar had both bijuu chakra and senjutsu in it for logical reasons and in order to actually hurt Obito. Although you don't have to be logical as the manga already proves it.
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The Susanoo sword not only cut Obito which is a clear indication of Senjutsu, but caused Obito's body to react to the bijuu chakra in the attack. So yes Madara use his regular PS, while Sasuke has Bijuu and Senjutsu enhance Susanoo.
Yes while damage done to the area by Obito's slam is nothing compared to that at VOTE0 that is because of clash's AoE. Bijuu dama's and giant fist flying everywhere will make that big of an explosion, however what Obito did was an a direct attack. The the damage done to the area directly correlates to the damage done to the victims It was their body being slammed that created such a huge crater, the same cannot be said about the damage done at VOTE0 even more so considering that there was attacking going on from both sides while Obito was the only one attacking.
So let's break this down
Gaara Sand protects susanoo covered kurama, even if damage gets pass the damage reduced
*Already taking less damage then Madara's susanoo*
Sasuke's susanoo while initially inferior is enhance by Bijuu and Senjutsu chakra
*equals if not surpassed madara in durability while still inferior in size, also remember PS>V3=PS*
Naruto Kurama avatar, durability includes taking on Juubi beam(BM not BSM) and taking an out of this world body slam to destroy
*key thing here is that Madara was protecting him and Kurama, while Kurama/Naruto is protecting the team*
Do you still doubt the triple layered defense. It most certainly surpasses Madara's. Even if you think their offense is inferior to Madara's they can still make up for it with superior defense.
\ apply logic to my statement, you claim it can't be done simply because you haven't seen it. You put no logic behind why Kurama only can use at most 5 at a time.
2 things you fail to realize.
1. They weren't trying to go all out or match the Juubi with their TBB only to setup for the real plan. What could have spamming 12 TBB accomplished in that scenario?
2. Comparing the 8 tail's 4 TBB to Half kurama's 5 doesn't help as all the tailed beast below 9 are clearly far inferior to even just half kurama, as seen when Naruto match the combined power of 5 TBB with just one of his own.
Because there is no reason to believe he can use more when he did his best and only used 5. :lol
1. You sound dumb for saying that they weren't trying to go all out on the Juubi of all things. If all their only goal was a setup then they wouldn't have wasted chakra forming 9 BD when they could've just
2. Irrelevant. That shows that having the stamina to use more doesn't mean that he can use more.
When you get the feats, then come back. Because all your talk about fallacies and applying logic is a waste of my time when you are the one who is failing to use the simplest of logic here.
I never said BSM would have TBB as large as Full kurama, my presumptuous mate, Full kurama may have a bigger TBB, but Naruto's is enhanced by Senjutsu, increasing the TBB power and sustainability.
Which isn't helping your argument, since Naruto's small BD+Senjutsu isn't pushing it above a BD over 3x larger.
It is logical to think Gaara sand can help block as Madara's Susanoo did indeed block SS as Kurama wasn't KO'ed seem mostly unharmed and Madara's Susanoo wasn't completely destroyed. When I say sink I don't mean the whole body of SS, but referring to what ever is necessary. I've already shown how manipulating the battle field helps against Titans.
No it's not when Gaara's Sand's best feat is tanking V3, and when Naruto's Avatar and Sasuke's PS are nowhere near as durable as Madara's Susanoo, which protected Madara from SS's attacks.
And "whatever is necessary" doesn't help your argument since "whatever is necessary" would be something that can disable it's arms, which he cannot do. Then there's the fact that you still haven't shown me evidence of Gaara being able to manipulate sand that spans across a Mountain's distance. (SS's width) What you showed me is Doton, not Sand. Gaara can not replicate the same thing against SS that Kitsuchi did against the Juubi due to that obvious important factor. Then there's the fact that SS is larger than the Juubi in it's entirety, and the fact that causing SS to shift position won't cause the arms to shift all the way to a position where Naruto and co won't be hit.
Can you stop with this ingenuous comparison of yours. You sound so silly that I can't even begin to comprehend it. What's even worse is that you are wasting my time posting walls of text without you actually posting proof of what you are claiming. Sand being able to absorb impact=/=Sand being able to absorb enough impact to prevent Naruto and Sasuke from dying.
Sand being Sand doesn't make it immune to every physical attack, so unless you have evidence of it's defensive capability, don't bother replying.
1. it was not blunt damage
2. it was not shown breaking through. Yes it created cracks in Doton but remember sand shield is malleable.
1. Irrelevant. The gap in energy output between the two is so large that whether or not one is focused isn't going to change anything.
2. The fact that the magatama were shown embedded in the Doton proves this whole theory of yours wrong.
This is why I usually avoid arguing with the OP when threads like these are made, because they grasp at so many straws to try and prove their point that it turns the argument into nothing but a waste of time. You claiming nonsense that is impossible without any evidence.
Yes the V3 susanoo was Senjutsu enhance and Bijuu chakra, but so was his PS. Be logical for a sec. Why would Naruto share his chakra with everyone in his Kurama avatar but not Sasuke? Clearly the susanoo over the avatar had both bijuu chakra and senjutsu in it for logical reasons and in order to actually hurt Obito. Although you don't have to be logical as the manga already proves it.
You do realize that this is not only a claim never brought up, you are obviously wrong once again. Yes, Naruto CAN share his chakra with Sasuke, but he didn't in that scenario. Sasuke only had Senjutsu powering his Susanoo. The chakra from the Kurama Avatar is merged with Sasuke's Susanoo, and that's why Sasuke's Susanoo was capable of bringing the Bijuu out after cutting him. Use common sense before you reply.
The Susanoo sword not only cut Obito which is a clear indication of Senjutsu, but caused Obito's body to react to the bijuu chakra in the attack. So yes Madara use his regular PS, while Sasuke has Bijuu and Senjutsu enhance Susanoo.
Yes while damage done to the area by Obito's slam is nothing compared to that at VOTE0 that is because of clash's AoE. Bijuu dama's and giant fist flying everywhere will make that big of an explosion, however what Obito did was an a direct attack. The the damage done to the area directly correlates to the damage done to the victims It was their body being slammed that created such a huge crater, the same cannot be said about the damage done at VOTE0 even more so considering that there was attacking going on from both sides while Obito was the only one attacking.
Irrelevant. What you are doing here is simply you dancing around what actually happened since admitting what actually happened is what is the truth would kill your argument. Obito hit Naruto and Sasuke's Susanoo with a drop slam, the energy output created said crater. SS and PS clashed, the resulting energy output caused VoTE in it's entirety, thus the clash at VoTE is far stronger. Attacking from both sides doesn't change how much power was released.
Gaara Sand protects susanoo covered kurama, even if damage gets pass the damage reduced
*Already taking less damage then Madara's susanoo*
Sasuke's susanoo while initially inferior is enhance by Bijuu and Senjutsu chakra
*equals if not surpassed madara in durability while still inferior in size, also remember PS>V3=PS*
Naruto Kurama avatar, durability includes taking on Juubi beam(BM not BSM) and taking an out of this world body slam to destroy
*key thing here is that Madara was protecting him and Kurama, while Kurama/Naruto is protecting the team*
Do you still doubt the triple layered defense. It most certainly surpasses Madara's. Even if you think their offense is inferior to Madara's they can still make up for it with superior defense.
1. You can't prove that his sand is strong enough to do that.
2. Sasuke's Susanoo is still inferior even w/ Bijuu and Senjutsu Chakra boosting it's power.
3. Manga shows that Sasuke's PS is far inferior to Madara's due to being destroyed by an attack nowhere near the level of Chojo Kebutsu and 12 BD combined. Same thing goes for Naruto since his Avatar equals Sasuke's.
I would have no reason to doubt your argument if real evidence actually existed. But it doesn't. The Sand vs. SS claim is basically you saying that Sand absorbs blunt damage, thus it automatically protects them from SS while ignoring the fact that you have to prove that it's strong enough to do so. If I used your logic I'd be saying that Kaguya's Vacuum Fists get softened by Gaara's Sand despite it being capable of obliterating PS. And your Avatar defense claim is basically you trying to claim that Obito's drop slam is stronger when in reality it's not, and nothing in your post even begins to support the notion that it is.
Wait waitwait
I have to post proof for real world occurrences Do I need a primary source for everything I say? Am I taking a college course on Naruto fights? :lol this isn't even a formal debate.
Bro you rely too much on solely what is presented in the manga, your post lack both your own creativity and real world logic. Sure this is Kishi's story but you got to put some effort in, as these fights never happened. Their are certain things in which need an answer and those answers may not be in the manga. This is why Argumentum ad Ignorantiam is a thing, you can't be right just because something hasn't been presented in the manga. However you can still argue why it isn't the case, as I can argue some is the case.
I mean really, Sand dissipating kinetic energy is such common knowledge, not every one knows it as dissipating kinetic energy, but sand absorbing impact is an obvious property. Ever heard of Bags of Sand being used in war to protect people from bullets, and explosions? This isn't something that happens just in a fantasy world.
Sorry but I can't take your post seriously if you just ignore portions of my argument simply because you can't comprehend. Even if you need proof(as if you never heard of google or wikipedia), you could at least express it respectfully, instead of just pretending it is irrelevant. That is just low, trying to discredit my post due to your own incompetence.
Your argument is as rudimentary as it is ridiculous, so yes, I can easily comprehend it. What you can't seem to wrap your pea sized brain around (despite me literally spelling it out for you twice) is that Sand can soften the damage from attacks, but you have no evidence it can soften the damage from an attack as powerful as Shinsuusenju's barrage of hits to the point where Naruto and Sasuke would survive. Let's use your garbage logic for a quick second and realize where it takes us:
-By your garbage logic Gaara's Sand would protect Naruto and Sasuke's Avatar from Kaguya's vacuum fists because of how it works. (ignoring the fact that the sand still has to be strong enough to block enough of the energy)
-By your garbage logic Gaara's Sand would protect him from Evening Elephant without fail because of "how it works" without taking into account the strength of the Sand and of Evening Elephant. Sand being able to soften blows doesn't negate the fact that it has to be sturdy enough to do so. If the BS dribble you were spouting here made sense, then Gaara would be able to block all physical attacks, but he can't.
I can't take your post seriously if the gaps in your logic are this apparent. If you don't have the mental capacity to prove that sand does what it does (proven) AND THAT IT CAN DO IT TO THE EXTENT YOU ARE CLAIMING IT CAN BE DONE, then please stop replying to me.
Though I fully expect you to reply with more nonsense ignoring everything that was stated here. :lol Learn how to debate, and learn how to apply logical fallacies to an argument before you decide to start throwing them around. The only way you reply with the same nonsense that I just addressed is if you can't/don't read before you reply. Period. Stop wasting my time with crap logic.
Your argument is as rudimentary as it is ridiculous, so yes, I can easily comprehend it. What you can't seem to wrap your pea sized brain around (despite me literally spelling it out for you twice) is that Sand can soften the damage from attacks, but you have no evidence it can soften the damage from an attack as powerful as Shinsuusenju's barrage of hits to the point where Naruto and Sasuke would survive. Let's use your garbage logic for a quick second and realize where it takes us:
-By your garbage logic Gaara's Sand would protect Naruto and Sasuke's Avatar from Kaguya's vacuum fists because of how it works. (ignoring the fact that the sand still has to be strong enough to block enough of the energy)
-By your garbage logic Gaara's Sand would protect him from Evening Elephant without fail because of "how it works" without taking into account the strength of the Sand and of Evening Elephant. Sand being able to soften blows doesn't negate the fact that it has to be sturdy enough to do so. If the BS dribble you were spouting here made sense, then Gaara would be able to block all physical attacks, but he can't.
I can't take your post seriously if the gaps in your logic are this apparent. If you don't have the mental capacity to prove that sand does what it does (proven) AND THAT IT CAN DO IT TO THE EXTENT YOU ARE CLAIMING IT CAN BE DONE, then please stop replying to me.
Though I fully expect you to reply with more nonsense ignoring everything that was stated here. :lol Learn how to debate, and learn how to apply logical fallacies to an argument before you decide to start throwing them around. The only way you reply with the same nonsense that I just addressed is if you can't/don't read before you reply. Period. Stop wasting my time with crap logic.
Real world logic is garbage logic? Do you ever step outside of your home?
The fact that you need evidence of whether or not, sand will reduce damage shows how little you grasp the concept. Sure you can say I have a pea size brain because I disagree with you, but fact still remains you are somehow questioning real world logic. You question whether or not the sand would protect from attacks, yet it is simple. The sand protects, whether or not the attacks gets through. If guy attacks Gaara with even elephant the sand will protect him, Gaara will certainly die but he would still have been protected regardless. In that instance the effort was in vain but still was an effort. You clearly are having a hard time understanding the concept of different attacks having different properties. You see things far too simple, and overlook many things. You fail to see the difference between attacks like chidori and rasengan, a punch and a stab, a slam and an explosion. This all matters. You look at rock-paper-scissors as rock-rock-rock. There is so much detail that you are ignoring. It's like you think you can take 1 physics class and suddenly be Einstein. Obviously Gaara can not block against all physical attacks, but not all physical attacks behave in the same manner. Blunt damage is perfect for defending against with sand. So not only would his defense be powerful due to the size of the shield/armor, but the defense has and advantage over offense. Then you have to take into consideration Naruto and Sasuke's defense.
The stuff you claim and assume I am trying to argue only expose your ignorance on the matter.
"Sand being able to soften blows doesn't negate the fact that it has to be sturdy enough to do so." This alone says how much you just don't get it. The sand isn't going to be destroyed, sand is pretty much already in it's destroyed state. "Broken" sand is just sand, so what is the point in even mentioning it being sturdy? No matter what it will soften the blow, obviously doesn't mean it will result in the blow being soft. As I've said before Effort in vain, is still effort. The best way to get past a sand shield is to penetrate it, the worst way is with blunt force, the opposite can be said for Susanoo, conveniently both are used for the same defense making near perfect, strategy wise. The reason I don't even take an effort to guess how much damage will be reduce is because
1. You were even comprehending the properties of a sand shield. Why go all in when you haven't even gotten past the start?
2. It isn't even necessary. I've already explained why just Naruto and Sasuke is matching Madara's defense, Gaara is just the Icing on the cake.
I could have dug deeper in my next following, but your response to it wasn't worthy of taking serious.
None of your arguments can be taken seriously, and why you don't have the mental capacity to realize how idiotic you sound. If Gaara dies, then he wasn't protected. Period. If his attempt to protect himself was in vain, then he wasn't protected. The sand absorbing some energy doesn't matter if the attack was still powerful enough to rip through and kill Gaara. Why don't you stop being an idiot and actually learn how to debate? This is why kids and illiterates shouldn't be allowed on this website. They just make it worse than it already is. You have a pea sized brain because of the content of your post, not because I disagree. :lol It's funny how the children who are usually spouting the most BS always complain.
Real world logic=Sand absorbs blunt force damage easier than it does piercing damage.
Your logic=Sand can protect them from SS's barrage because of that simple fact, without actually proving that it is strong enough to do so.
Once again. Your shit logic equates to me saying Gaara's Sand blocks Kaguya's Vacuum Fists because "lol blunt force damage" without actually taking into account the power of the sand. The fact that you are saying "I question whether or not Sand protects" only shows me how illiterate you really are since the only thing I question is it's ability to protect FROM SHINSUUSENJU. Then you start mentioning different types of attacks when those are irrelevant here as none of my comparisons used attacks that weren't blunt force trauma.
But you've been a retard judging by some of your past posts, so I'm not surprised.
The rest is irrelevant. You've yet to prove that the Sand can protect them from SS, so don't expect another counter until you do. You keep repeating that Gaara's Sand blocks blunt force attacks, without actually proving that it can block an attack on the level of Shinsuusenju's barrage.
2. I've already explained why just Naruto and Sasuke is matching Madara's defense, Gaara is just the Icing on the cake.
Except you haven't. I already countered everything related to Naruto and Sasuke's defense being superior to Madara's, and of course, as expected from someone such as yourself, I got no counter and just nonsense. Please stop wasting my time with your hilariously sub par argumentation. Wait, sub par would be a compliment in this case. More like trash argumentation.
I should've expected nonsense argumentation once I saw the username, and the "they clear" statement. :lol
Do I need a primary source for everything I say? Am I taking a college course on Naruto fights? :lol this isn't even a formal debate.
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