Naruto even without the kyubi would still be kage level

[Joki]

Ok first off..what? People think taking away Kurama from Naruto is equal to taking away Taijutsu from someone like Lee? This is completely BS, Base Naruto is still easily top tier, bringing SM into it only makes it much worse for hte people who think Naruto w/o Kurama for whatever ridiculous reason isn't Kage level.

Well we already know what SM can do,

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even though Naruto did the exact same thing in base, point being. SM boosts his powers tenfold or more, far enhanced speed, taijutsu, ninjutsu, everything. To the point where Naruto effortlessly destroyed and

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with basic rasengan, punches or similar. He was walking all over them. Not to mention the fact he can enter SM instantly.

So let's scratch SM Naruto because without Kurama he's already extremely hax, add on SM Naruto and it's just un fair. Plus, if we can count this, he could even fuse with Shima/Fukasaku lol.

So without SM we have base Naruto Uzumaki, with practically infinite chakra and all that good stuff. Like keeping up with Deva in taijutsu in base for one as well as pretty much everything the OP said. Chou Odama Rasengan Barrage, Rasenshuriken, Yatai Kuzushi and the ability to summon every single boss toad, Shima, Fukasaku. Need I go on really, and Naruto's a tactical genius as well.

Anyone who thinks Naruto isn't Kage Level without SM or Kurama can't comprehend the manga or is hating or severely downplaying/underrating Naruto. I know this is kind-of a gravedig but seriously, usually I'd say Base Naruto can beat quite a lot of top tiers with ease, I guess here it's different. To when he's not even Kage level or SM Naruto totally doesn't effortlessly beat everyone lol. Let alone with Kurama.

 

[Solo]

Anyone who thinks Naruto isn't Kage Level without SM or Kurama can't comprehend the manga or is hating or severely downplaying/underrating Naruto. I know this is kind-of a gravedig but seriously, usually I'd say Base Naruto can beat quite a lot of top tiers with ease, I guess here it's different. To when he's not even Kage level or SM Naruto totally doesn't effortlessly beat everyone lol. Let alone with Kurama.

I still wouldn't put him on Kage Level even with Sage Mode. Simply because Naruto lack knowledge and experience.

He couldn't defeat Pain.(Until the Nine-Tails stepped in)

Pain says: Jiraiya could have beat him if he knew my secret.(I believe)

Naruto who mastered Sage Mode with knowledge of Pain after Pain solo'd the village, could not.

Hmm.. Jiraiya is possibly > Pain(with knowledge) > Naruto who mastered Sage Mode > Jiraiya?

 

[Joki]

I still wouldn't put him on Kage Level even with Sage Mode. Simply because Naruto lack knowledge and experience.

He couldn't defeat Pain.(Until the Nine-Tails stepped in)

Pain says: Jiraiya could have beat him if he knew my secret.(I believe)

Naruto who mastered Sage Mode with knowledge of Pain after Pain solo'd the village, could not.

Hmm.. Jiraiya is possibly > Pain(with knowledge) > Naruto who mastered Sage Mode > Jiraiya?

He doesn't lack knowledge and experience. This is what all of his intelligence feats were for thus far. Like fooling Kiba, Kakuzu, Pain, were all incredible battle strategies and are a few of the best in the manga if there even are any others near comparable.

He did beat Pain. The only reason Pain lost is because Naruto didn't have knowledge on the crucial paths that he had to defeat first, and because Naruto didn't originally have an answer to Bansho Tenin(which he easily does now).

And Naruto didn't have knowledge on Pain or lost, I seriously hate when people say this. Naruto only had knowledge on 2 paths originally, the techniques in which easily are found out in battle. Preta Path absorbs ninjutsu, Animal Pain summons. Simple. And he killed all of them too fast and effortlessly to make a difference. And if he had knowledge on Naraka path, Deva would have been hit with an FRS from the get-go because Narak wouldn't have been able to revive Preta who intercepted it. So both had their advantages/disadvantages but Naruto still easily outplayed Pain in every way possible.

I never really debated on Jiraiya vs SM Naruto, but I wholeheartedly agree if Jiraiya had knowledge on Pain he would have won. Jiraiya has a much wider array of jutsu that could be useful but SM Naruto didn't show attacks like Chou Odama Rasengan Barrage in which we didn't know he had at that point, Jiraiya would probably lose.

 

[OG9TAILS]

Definitely so, he just needs to learn some seals and he'd be a beast.

 

[xBijuu]

Ok, take away all of the Narutoverse's character's special abilities, Sasuke's sharingan for example, and look at how powerful people are.

Naruto is easily Top 3, possibly #1

Now Give everyone they're special abilities.

Naruto BM is Top 5.

Naruto is Kage level regardless of anything, and yes I'm a Naruto fanboy and proud.

 

[saw2097]

Naruto without Kurama and without sage mode is not even jōnin level in my opinion... ok maybe...maaaaaybe jōnin, Kage no way. With SM, no kyuubi ... I would say... equivalent to S rank. Naruto beat Pain in the end because of Kurama... I don't think he could have done that without kyuubi's help. Kakashi kicks the shit out of Naruto (Naruto with no SM and Kyuubi(assisting him in anyway possible)), he's just too smart and experienced for him...and Kakashi, despite his lack of showing it, is Kage level...

If you go back you will see that Naruto had the upper hand but lost it because he ran out of Sage chakra. He would not have if he could fuse with Ma and Pa which he could if he didn't have the 9 tails. So the 9 tails is also what caused Pain to get the upper hand. If he didn't have the 9 tails in him he would have defeated Pain by fusing with Ma and Pa.

 

[Sasuke the hottie]

naruto without kyuubi power is zero,i don't know why others say sasuke w/0 sharingan,u stupid bastards,sasuke was born with sharingan,naruto got transplanted the 9 tails(the thing with the most powerfull chakra) in him,it's 2 different things,in that case let's also take away his power he acquired from his uzumaki clan,then he probably wouldn't even be a shinobi.sasuke awakened all of his powers by himself,none of his powers were given to him,he acquired the MS by pain after the death of his brother,he transplanted itachi's eyes to never go blind(which is not gaining power for the stupids out there),it just means,he won't eyesight again,unlike naruto who in other hand is using another living thing's chakra.for the imbeciles,let me tell u that even kyuubi himself said that couldn't do anything without his help.haha,even with kyuubi power,naruto is not stronger than sasuke,growp up SUCKERS.....

 

[The God of Wind]

The only scenario where this is possible is one which doesnt include Tobi, if thats the case then Naruto grows up without Kyuubi and without any strife, under the full care of his parents, who live to see him grow into a man. If that would have happened, Naruto would be the Hokage already and much more like the 4th Hokage, meaning more calm and collected, with a huge array of jutsu.

 

[Naruto9001]

naruto without kyuubi power is zero,i don't know why others say sasuke w/0 sharingan,u stupid bastards,sasuke was born with sharingan,naruto got transplanted the 9 tails(the thing with the most powerfull chakra) in him,it's 2 different things,in that case let's also take away his power he acquired from his uzumaki clan,then he probably wouldn't even be a shinobi.sasuke awakened all of his powers by himself,none of his powers were given to him,he acquired the MS by pain after the death of his brother,he transplanted itachi's eyes to never go blind(which is not gaining power for the stupids out there),it just means,he won't eyesight again,unlike naruto who in other hand is using another living thing's chakra.for the imbeciles,let me tell u that even kyuubi himself said that couldn't do anything without his help.haha,even with kyuubi power,naruto is not stronger than sasuke,growp up SUCKERS.....

Uhhhh last time i checked Narutowas born with the kyubi........Sasuke with the sharingon. None of them were given to him lmao. Almost all of Sasuke powers were given to him. He wasn't born with the curse mark, He didn't obtain the ms Itachi had to implant his amaterasu in Sasuke so his ms powers would grow he didn't work for nothing ems he didn't work for nothing either. When he goes into km and bm that's actually a combination of both of there powers in case you didn't so what you just said is complete fail.

 

[Sasuke the hottie]

Uhhhh last time i checked Narutowas born with the kyubi........Sasuke with the sharingon. None of them were given to him lmao. Almost all of Sasuke powers were given to him. He wasn't born with the curse mark, He didn't obtain the ms Itachi had to implant his amaterasu in Sasuke so his ms powers would grow he didn't work for nothing ems he didn't work for nothing either. When he goes into km and bm that's actually a combination of both of there powers in case you didn't so what you just said is complete fail.

come on bro,how can naruto be born with the kyuubi inside him,his father sealed into him the day he was born,in that case r u telling all the uzamakis were born with a tailed beast inside them?.haha,naruto is nothing but a vessel to the kyuubi.ok and when u say itachi implanted amaterasu so his powers would grow,doesnt that sound cliche to u?all itachi did was to implant amater in order to prevent tobi from meeting sasuke.that's all itachi did.sasuke gained MS because of his brother's loss,go read wickipedia and it's known that to gain ems u need ur siblings eyes,there is no difference in power between ms and ems(go read in wiki as well) the only difference is that with ems,u wouln't go blind.unlike naruto which another living thing giving him powers.when they fight,it's(naruto+kyuubi vs sasuke) or just(kyuubi vs sasuke) since kyuubi is doing all the work

 

[CreamyXP]

Not a Naruto hater (hes one of my favs) but him at base wont be kage level. The reason he learned rasegan was because Jiraya took him in as a student temporarily. Naruto needed Kurama to use sumoning jutsu, if he didnt have kurama he wouldnt have been able to use it thus Jiraya wouldnt have taken him in as a student. Neither would he have learned sage mode.

 

[TrollingSage]

Okay, I'm putting an end to this discussion.

Naruto, as an uzumaki, has an abnormal amount of stamina, which means an abnormal amount of chakra, this is not due to the fox and it is because of this that he is able to have the fox inside him. Now he still isn't on Kisame's level on pure chakra levels but he does have shit ton, about twice as much as kakashi who is average on chakra level. Because the size of the kyuubi and the seal used to contain it, Naruto must constantly suppress the kyuubi's chakra with his own by having the kyuubi's mix with his in small amounts, this also messes with his chakra control so he wastes alot of the chakra he has because of poor control.

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Naruto learned the Tajuu Kage Bunshin from pure hard work no fox chakra except the tiny bit that leaked out constantly which only served to make it more difficult for him to control his own chakra. He created a thousand clones with his chakra only, the first time he used fox chakra was in his fight with haku, who btw wouldn't have killed him, only incapacitated him like he did Sasuke.

Minato didn't create the rasengan from nothing, he based it off the bijuu bomb, as stated by B when he saw Naruto trying the rasengan in KM. It also didn't Naruto months to learn the rasengan, at most it took two to three weeks, more likely two. Jiraiya was surprised by Naruto's progress, it only took him a few days on the each of the first two steps then a few more days after he started the third step to when he made the bet with Tsunade. That was pure naruto, if he used the kyuubi's chakra at all then he used it only to continue training, which I doubt since he still hadn't perfected using kurama's chakra at will.

The rasenshurikin, while he was training to create it he was not using the kyuubi's chakra, we know this because Yamato was suppressing it as a precaution to help prevent the kyuubi from blasting out. Now it is true, when he faced Kakuzu he did use the fox's chakra, but that was only because he was just out himself because he had been training for several days straight only breaking to eat, sleep and hear an explanation or two.

Naruto had no need of the kyuubi's chakra to learn SM, he only used two clones so it was Naruto only, no kyuubi. Now SM has to count for his abilities because its just another jutsu essentially, which he mastered, something not even Jiraiya could do.

Now, if Naruto didn't have Kurama, given his current abilities, he could hold SM longer since he can summon ma and pa, and with SM he can use his sensory abilities to compete with most other Nin, A would still be a problem with his speed but A is the fastest in the world so that is understandable. If he fought Tsunade he could easily dodge her attacks, summon his frogs to counter Katsuya, and a rasenshuriken can easily take out Tsunade in one hit, or it would at least take her down quite a bit if she was using her current healing tech (can't remember the name). Gaara isn't quite fast enough against Naruto SM but he does have long range, which would give him some trouble since only his FRS is medium to long range. Now Gaara would prove to be a problem but with his frog summons he could possibly overcome Gaara's shields. Mei would also prove to be a problem with her kekkei genkai, magma release, but with some ingenuity Naruto may be able to overcome it, probably throwing a bunch of kage bunshins at her till he finds a way through it. Oonoki also would be a problem, not sure if he could win, Dust release would be a bitch if he got hit by it.

In short

Tajuu Kage Bunshin = Naruto Only, Mastered

Huge Stamina = Naruto Only

No Kyuubi = Better chakra control and a little more chakra as well

Rasengan = Naruto Only, Mastered

Rasenshuriken = Naruto Only (large drain though), stronger with SM, mastered

Sage Mode = Mastered, higher strength and speed, longer attack range, more powerful jutsu overall, one of the best sensory abilities in the Narutoverse.

Naruto is strong enough to take on any of the Kages and hold his own, no one can deny that, stop hating on Naruto, he is a super hard worker, and is definately kage level, now thats not saying he can beat all of them. He can beat alot of them, only Tsunade of the hokages but the hokages are usually some of the strongest kages anyway.

Now to wait for the flame.

Great post. + rep for that
And to add to that without the nine tails Naruto would have a much wider array of jutsus and would have possibly learnt sage mode earlier . Why? Because in the 3 year time skip Jiraiya focused on teaching Naruto how to control the fox's chakra. Imagine if he had spent all that time on other jutsus.
Edit: I should have probably looked at the date before posting

 

[JakeLife510]

If it wasn't for Kyuubi chakra, Neji would have won/owned him.
Same with Pein

I don't think he's Kage level, only maybe with Sagemode

 

[Naruto9001]

come on bro,how can naruto be born with the kyuubi inside him,his father sealed into him the day he was born,in that case r u telling all the uzamakis were born with a tailed beast inside them?.haha,naruto is nothing but a vessel to the kyuubi.ok and when u say itachi implanted amaterasu so his powers would grow,doesnt that sound cliche to u?all itachi did was to implant amater in order to prevent tobi from meeting sasuke.that's all itachi did.sasuke gained MS because of his brother's loss,go read wickipedia and it's known that to gain ems u need ur siblings eyes,there is no difference in power between ms and ems(go read in wiki as well) the only difference is that with ems,u wouln't go blind.unlike naruto which another living thing giving him powers.when they fight,it's(naruto+kyuubi vs sasuke) or just(kyuubi vs sasuke) since kyuubi is doing all the work

It's part of the uzumaki clans kekki genkai to hold bijuu and the kyubi has been in him ever since he was born. Itachi drastically speededup the process Sasuke wasn't going to get ms if Itachi didn't do that he first unlocked his ms when he fought Bee when it's said you only unlock it when a friend close to you dies so for him to unlock it then someone must have transplanted it into him. I know what ems does he didn't work for it Naruto actualy fought the kyubi for it's power. Wrong. Naruto is the one in control of the kyubi he just has the kyubi's power but it's also a combination of his own. Why do you think his chakra is yellow? Because it's a combination of there's.

 

[Naruto9001]

If it wasn't for Kyuubi chakra, Neji would have won/owned him.
Same with Pein

I don't think he's Kage level, only maybe with Sagemode

What your bringing up stuff from part 1? Lol.

 

[JakeLife510]

What your bringing up stuff from part 1? Lol.

Am I wrong about Neji or Pein?

 

[Naruto9001]

Am I wrong about Neji or Pein?

Base Naruto beat the Deva Path. Which shows his base is very poweful.

 

[Lana Del Taka]

i think naruto would be more like a low kage level. and it seems like ur underrating minato cause u gotta rerember that minato had to teach himself the rasengan and naruto had jiraiya to help him

 

[Sasuke the hottie]

It's part of the uzumaki clans kekki genkai to hold bijuu and the kyubi has been in him ever since he was born. Itachi drastically speededup the process Sasuke wasn't going to get ms if Itachi didn't do that he first unlocked his ms when he fought Bee when it's said you only unlock it when a friend close to you dies so for him to unlock it then someone must have transplanted it into him. I know what ems does he didn't work for it Naruto actualy fought the kyubi for it's power. Wrong. Naruto is the one in control of the kyubi he just has the kyubi's power but it's also a combination of his own. Why do you think his chakra is yellow? Because it's a combination of there's.

sorry dude,naruto is not in control of the kyuubi,now that the seal is no longer. the 9 tails can run freely if he wanted to,it didn't want to because the 9 tails fears madara,and where did u bring this stuff of combination chakra?i have never heard that,it's called KM(kyuubi mode) not naruto+kyuubi chakra,naruto himself when he first used km,he said it was kyuubi chakra,not ours combined,so please do not come up with stuff,and as for sasuke's case,u don't want to admit it,but u do know itachi has nothing to do with his MS,saying that he wouldn't get MS if itachi didn't poke his forehead proves that u lack in notions,then by theory,maybe someone else poke itachi's head before he got MS,same goes for madara,izuna and all others who awoken ms,haha everything u said r just theories in your head,give me proof,everything i said is in (naruto wicki)as for naruto fighting kyuubi,who is the one that stoped kyuubi' tbb?hachibi and who hold down completely kyuubi?kushina,all naruto has to do is to pull kyuubi's chakra,is there anything easier than that?

 

[Naruto9001]

sorry dude,naruto is not in control of the kyuubi,now that the seal is no longer. the 9 tails can run freely if he wanted to,it didn't want to because the 9 tails fears madara,and where did u bring this stuff of combination chakra?i have never heard that,it's called KM(kyuubi mode) not naruto+kyuubi chakra,naruto himself when he first used km,he said it was kyuubi chakra,not ours combined,so please do not come up with stuff,and as for sasuke's case,u don't want to admit it,but u do know itachi has nothing to do with his MS,saying that he wouldn't get MS if itachi didn't poke his forehead proves that u lack in notions,then by theory,maybe someone else poke itachi's head before he got MS,same goes for madara,izuna and all others who awoken ms,haha everything u said r just theories in your head,give me proof,everything i said is in (naruto wicki)as for naruto fighting kyuubi,who is the one that stoped kyuubi' tbb?hachibi and who hold down completely kyuubi?kushina,all naruto has to do is to pull kyuubi's chakra,is there anything easier than that?

Naruto and the kyubi a friends his a perfect jin now perfect jins have full control over there bijuu read the recent chapters. When Naruto defeated the nine tails he fused it's with his. Your just ignoring maanga facts.

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in order to get the ms you must kill your closest friend it'sa manga fact unless it's implanted and that's what Itachi get over it fanboy. Manga > Wiki. Are you saying it's easy to take chakra from the strongest bijuu? Ok that's it im done.