Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

[Hawker]

ItachiStyle you are a ******.
From Myth Busting #2 (You have no life)
"- Hirzen scored high in the databooks
There is no reason for us to treat the databooks seriously. They’re not written by the author, and are full of obviously ridiculous material. Ameratsu is not “as hot as the sun”, and Naruto isn’t dragonball Z, where power levels mean something. For heaven’s sake, the databook gives Oro the same Genjutsu score as Itachi (a 5), which is patently ridiculous. Nobody should be invoking the databook as evidence of anything, no more than non-cannon star wars material, or a bunch of fanfic really. The scores in the databook do not represent characters actual abilities (Itachi for instance owns Oro every which way on Genjutsu, yet has an equal score… ridiculous).
"

Yet in this topic, you use the databook to force feed the Sannin's age to everyone. The points you are trying to prove are pathetic, and you should get a job. Instead of being a dumbass your entire life. Look at how you talk to people. Fix yourself before you kiss yourself.

This. So this.

 

[Uziha Uchimaki]

I'm not sure what thread you're reading... the one I'm reading contains numerous rude remarks directed at me. Not that I care. I don't mind people being a little aggressive or arrogant, provided they can back it up. None of these people can, which is annoying to say the least. Many clearly did not read my earlier posts, ignored or glossed over my replies, or didn't understand them. Quite a few admitted they couldn't be bothered reading them, and merely remarked that they "disagreed".


What?!!! We're given the age of the Sannin from Kishi. It's one of the only useful things from the external materials like the databooks. The Sannin are 50 at the opening of Naruto, and about 55-56 right now (Jiraiya having died at about age 54). How on earth could they be in their 40's when they fought Hanzo? We're told Jiraiya's age at the start of the manga was 50 by Kishi, and that was 12 years after the 9 Tails attack. Which brings Jiraiya to age 38. Then remember Minato had been Hokage for at least several years at the time, and several years before that he had trained Obito and Kakashi. Then factor in that Jiraiya trained Minato back when he was an academy graduate (which was at age 10, not 12 like Naruto, because he was a genius... again, this sort of timeline stuff is about the only reliable info we get from Kishi outside of the manga). And before he ever met 10 year old Minato, he was off fighting in the 3rd Shinobi World War, which went on for years unabated... and before that, he spent 3 years training Nagato. It was before all that stuff he fought Hanzo. So while it's possible Jiraiya was in his 20's still, the idea the Sannin were in their 40's is literally impossible, and they certainly hadn't reached their prime, because we know that some of their best techniques and skills and power ups happened after the battle with Hanzo (years after). Which makes the Hanzo fight pretty bad evidence of him being able to stand up to the Sannin.


There's definitely more to being a Kage than brute power. Minato and Itachi are great examples of how you can be awesome without huge attacks or giant explosions. But before we give people the benefit of the doubt in this regard, we have to see some evidence of it. So far for Hanzo, we've got nothing to justify that sort of argument. He can't beat Mifune in a fight... something that dozens of other characters would effortlessly do. Characters who can't do jutsu without seals are fighting with a serious handicap, and need either a way to compensate for that, or some natural abilities that make it irrelevant. Hanzo appears to have neither.

You misunderstood me on the age I wasn't saying they were in there 40s when they fought Hanzo. I was saying the way you explained the timeline earlier insinuated that the Sannin would've been in there 40s at the current time period in the manga. But I must correct myself. You are right that they are in their 50s. But the point I was trying to make was that more than likely they were in their 20s.

On everything else I don't apologize. The people I were referring to were the ones that stood put yo me. I thought I made a point to read all the comments since it wasn't too long of a thread.

Concerning Hanzos abilities the main ability you are forgetting is his poison and his defeat was his own and he was strong enough to break the edo tensei, something none of the KAGE were successful at.

 

[Shadow Abyss]

Well said, except for the part where you criticized Hanzo for fleeing when Nagato threatened him. Remember he had already met with Tobi by this point and knew enough about his powers to summon the Gedo Mazo, it is probably he already knew how to use some if not all of his powers, so even if he was crippled by Hanzo's attack he is cleraly not an opponent to be underestimated. That's the only flaw on your thread, you talked about a Rinnegan user like he was a nobody he could casually stomp.
But I agree with you on Hanzo's attributes anyway. Based on the hype he received back then I was expecting something much more impressive when he finally appeared in the war, in the end he greatly disappointed me. His so dreaded summon was quickly shoved aside by a katana slash and it was revealed it needs five entire minutes to recharge its attack and Hanzo's most powerful weapon is a venomous breath, which would be an awesome power if it wasn't for the fact he simply doesn't dare to use it against anyone that is not a fodder making it almost useless in a serious fight (in fact, he admitted this part). Of course, said lack of power could be excused for him not being able to use hand seals, however, with the ever growing number of techniques that doesn't recquire such a thing popping up so often nowadays I'm impressed he doesn't know a single one to use against Mifune given he is a village leader and probably has acess to lots of jutsus in the Rain.

 

[tossmidgetsenpai]

nice theory

 

[Phoenix of Chaos]

You made some pretty good points here. Personally i always thought Hanzo was strong... just strong.

 

[6PathsofKami]

He only became weak because he lost his edge by being paranoid and sh*t like how Mifune said. In his prime he is a powerful ninja just because he ran away from the blue dragon from gedo mazo doesnt make him weak it makes him a surviver and a clever ninja, isnt that what a shinobi does?

 

[ItachiStyle]

Even as I was typing it, I noted that their ages are given in multiple sources. The reason we can treat the ages seriously is because, unlike the "scores" each character is given, or the hyperbolic comments made, they have not been discredited. If the scores reasonably measured up to each character, then they'd be a fine baseline to work off. But they plainly don't. They smack of numbers that were written in a time when Kishi had a very different conception of how the manga would turn out, and as a result they now look very silly. Oro having a genjutsu score equal to Itachi particularly shows how ridiculous the scores are. The reason they have a 5 is obvious. When Kishi first was asked for input into the scores he didn't have a clear conception of how powerful certain characters would really be, but then once the scores were given, it was too late to change them in subsequent editions. Therefore Oro, who was supposed to be maybe the most powerful Shinobi on earth when the manga was first written, is given scores that are nearly perfect... but there's no way to adjust that to reflect the error when facts changed. Itachi came along and was so obviously superior to Oro in Genjutsu... but the most he could be scored was a 5... the same 5 Oro had already been given. This makes the scores meaningless.

Likewise, hyperbolic remarks don't count for much, especially not when they plainly contradict other stuff we've seen.

The ages don't have that problem. Likewise, I'm happy for people to quote the map in the databooks, or the reference to what seals each jutsu has (bearing in mind, some people seem to be able to do said jutsu minus the use of the seals).

As to the actual points in the thread:
* I agree, Hanzo was smart to run from Nagato... but if he was really "as strong as the Sannin", he wouldn't have needed to, at least not so soon. Look at Jiraiya fighting Pain... sure, he wouldn't have won, and he wasn't fighting their full strength, but at the same time the running seems premature for a guy who was apparently the most incredible shinobi in the world like some people are making out.
* Hanzo's poison is pretty useless against top Shinobi, as the poster above notes. It'd be especially useless against the Sannin, because Tsunade could almost certainly prevent it affecting her, and ditto Oro. A poison cloud isn't really a great ability against Kage ninja, who can just hold their breath or get some distance, then own you. What good is a small poison cloud going to be against Jiraiya when he jumps atop his giant frog who can jump a thousand feat in the air, and blast you with attacks like this?

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See that? That's Jiraiya burning an area the size of a small village in one shot. Poison isn't going to get Hanzo very far, and some Shinobi particularly are able to overcome it, are immune, or can just regen, etc.

As for him overcoming Edo Tensei, all that shows us is how powerful his will was, not how strong he is. At the risk of paraphrasing Madara again:
"You're going to beat me with your will? Power has nothing to do with will... it's an actual thing".

 

[DESTRUCTO]

Your forgetting something very important about Hanzo that made him so deadly. It is the same thing that made Sasori so deadly. Poison. His very breath is poisonous as well as his giant salamander summon. To be in his presence alone is dangerous. His sickle techniques are also equal to one of the greatest samurais sword skills. Plus, it is also poisonous. One cut leaves you paralyzed. so give credit where credit is due.

 

[Twin Steps]

All I know is

Sasori > Hanzo

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Sasori doesn't breath, so his poison won't work, but 100 puppets > Hanzo

This reply shows that ninjas work in the Bulbasaur>Charmander>Squirtle>Bulbasaur

 

[ItachiStyle]

Your forgetting something very important about Hanzo that made him so deadly. It is the same thing that made Sasori so deadly. Poison. His very breath is poisonous as well as his giant salamander summon. To be in his presence alone is dangerous. His sickle techniques are also equal to one of the greatest samurais sword skills. Plus, it is also poisonous. One cut leaves you paralyzed. so give credit where credit is due.

Try reading the post right above yours...

 

[a thousand years of death]

just so you know hanzo lost his edge which is what mifune told him and nagato tried to tell him. and lets not forget nagato destroyed an entire major ninja villiage in a matter of hours.

hanzo is no push over. also i thought the masses of ninja in the battlefield were konoha shinobi that hanzo had killed not the other way around. i will have to check it latter.

 

[PrettyFlacko]

Hanzo stomps. They weren't teenagers. unless you call late 20's 28teen lol. 3 against 1 no contest.

 

[ItachiStyle]

It doesn't specify who all the dead ninja belong to. Which is why people shouldn't assume too much about this fight, because they didn't see it. Certainly my first impression was that the Sannin had been through the middle of a cluster F#@! war zone when Hanzo turns up and surveys the dead everywhere and says "even in the midst of all this, you were able to survive"

 

[ItachiStyle]

Hanzo stomps. They weren't teenagers. unless you call late 20's 28teen lol. 3 against 1 no contest.

They could have been teenagers, they could have been mid to early 20's. It isn't important though, what is important is that they were nowhere near as strong as they'd later become. Jesus, try reading the thread.

 

[PrimeOfTheSixPaths]

Hanzo was still strong.

It is true that the Sennin were not in their prime, and at that moment, Hanzo was. If he wasn't so paranoid, he'd probably wouldve been even better.

 

[ItachiStyle]

I think some lower end Kage level shinobi might have actually struggled with Hanzo... but frankly, I can't think of one Kage that would lose to him. At the end of the day, is he even in the top 30 Shinobi we've seen thus far? I doubt it. The adult Sannin would all curb stomp this guy. Not to mention pretty much every Uchiha we've seen in action, every Kage, most of Akatsuki, various Jonin (Gai, Kakashi, etc), most tailed beast hosts, the list goes on. Yeh, he was "strong", but nothing special.

 

[Knights Saotome]

hanzo's power lies in his poison, any enemy that breaths and has lil to no resists to the poison then their dead. waves of troops or unprepared kage, it matters not. in theory hanzo could beat garra, as long as contact with the poison is made. no hanzo dose not have huge chakra levels nor any super powerful jutsu. though his poison spewing lizard is pretty badass. :EDIT: also in the mifiune hanzo fight didnt mifiune have the upperhand due to his resist to hanzo poison? so hanzo was forced into a one sided fight he would prolly have avoided, or at least prepared for.

 

[Knights Saotome]

Why is it that people believe they are entitled to respect? You earn respect, it's not given automatically. Your opinion is not based on a reasonable analysis of the evidence, so it's uninformed and illogical... of course I don't respect it. Should I respect people who believe in the Santa too?

seeing as its only children who do so yes, unless your a godfearing pedofile.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Poison isn't the unbeatable technique it's being held out as. It's a gimmick technique, that is near useless against high level Shinobi. You just hold your breath when you see it coming, and get some distance, then counter attack. Even a teenage Sakura knew to hold her breath when poison was being used. Even Tsunade's lame apprentice can use poison (again, to no effect, Kabuto just dodged it). Shizune's poison is said to be fatal if even a whiff is breathed in. And it was useless. It's especially useless when the guys you are fighting can jump hundreds of feat in the air, summon creatures who are physically bigger than the gas cloud you created, fire attacks vastly bigger than the gas cloud (and bigger than an area you can dodge), and when those summoned creatures can jump thousands of feet through the air.

 

[The Infernal Spirit]

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MANGA > YOU