Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable Kage

[ItachiStyle]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

Yeah you can't just rationalize, just how strong, Onoki was at the time, since we didn't see him fight. All we know, is that Mu looked the same, so he was probably at prime level.

We don't know if Onoki was in his prime, but what we do know is that based on his experience fighting Madara Onoki drew the following conclusions about his strength:
- Madara was scarily strong, to the point where he could believe almost anything of him. Indeed, Madara was so awesome, a young Onoki literally gave up the idea of beating him. And we're then told Madara was not even trying during this fight (because fighting them was like fighting "children"). The dude rocks up (alone) on the Hidden Stones home turf, punks their Kage and his next in line, and tells them from now on "you follow my orders". Yeh, I think we can get a good feeling about how far beyond these guys Madara is in his prime.

Madara with EMS was defeated in an instance by Gaara+Onoki+Naruto, I don't get your point. He couldn't stabilize perfect susanoo at that point in mid air, he needed rinnengan to do so. You are forgetting the most vital fact here.

1) Madara was not yet trying v.s Gaara, Onoki and Naruto, he was messing around. We know this because, aside from the fact that it's obvious, Madara tells us he isn't trying later on. Which prompts a disbelieving Onoki to ask "why did you go so easy on me back when we first fought, if you were this powerful" (remember, when they first fought, Madara had only EMS), to which Madara asks whether Onoki would fight seriously against kids. So no, that doesn't "count", because Madara wasn't trying (and once he was put in danger from not trying, he just tried a little harder, and kept doing that in the fight with Onoki and Co until finally he said "they are worthy Kage... ok, time to try").
2) It's entirely made up for you to claim he couldn't use perfect Susanoo without the Rinnegan. Indeed, all the evidence seems the other way. Madara says "this time" the map won't change too much (implying he used it in the Hashirama fight, causing the creation of the valley of the end), Madara remarks he has used it before (which makes no sense if it is tied to the Rinnegan, as he was almost dead when he got the Rinnegan, and never fought anyone as he was in hiding). Remember also the reaction from Onoki when Madara uses it. He basically asks Madara (and I'm paraphrasing) "why didn't you use this kind of power when we first fought!", to which Madara tells him (again paraphrasing) "I wasn't trying when I fought you". Madara doesn't say "oh, I couldn't use this power back then". When Tsunade asks "did my grandfather really fight against this?", Madara replies "I told you, the only one who can stop me is Hashirama... but he's not in this world anymore", which implies very heavily that "yes, Hashirama really fought this level of power, and could still plausibly defeat Madara now if he were alive".

If it can destroy a mountain, nothing known in Hashiramas arsenal of jutsu, should be able to block it. Dodging is different tho, but even that seems unrealistic. In edo state he can just use full scale jutsu depleting his entire chakra arsenal in every jutsu. It is not even close to possible to compare it to his normal EMS state, which fought Hashi.

Not only is this pure speculation on your part (invented to support your theory), but I've addressed it above. And in my opening post. The author very much seems to be telling us that Hashirama could stop this sort of thing, which is why Madara says (paraphrasing) "only Hashirama could stop me now, but he's gone", or "if he were around, we'd have to redraw the maps even more", or Kabuto tells us "his power was so incredible, people thought it a fairy tale". That's pretty decisive, unlike your invented theory which exists only to support your agenda.

Who says Madara didn't summon the kuybi to take out Mu and Onoki? Just to give one unlikely example, but with the knowledge given, you can't conclude much with that fight, except Madara didn't fight to his full strength.

Well, we see no evidence of it whatever. In addition, see what I wrote above. Onoki got a good indication of Madara's power from that fight, and it was apparently enough to scare him pretty badly, even with only EMS. If Madara needed the fox to win then Onoki's attitude would be much less "Oh F#$@, Madara!!!" and much more "well, he's pretty hard to beat with the 9 Tails, but I reckon Muu and I could have taken him without the fox helping him".

Lol this is just pathetic to read, considering the outcome of the battle.... The one here, who doesn't remember the hiru vs oro fight must be you. What happened when Oro had lost his 2 pawns? Hiru grabbed enma, and jumped towards Oro. Basically Oro was trapped in his own mess, he couldn't escape.

We see no evidence Oro tried to escape. Why would he, the guy could regenerate his body at will, and would have had no fear about Hirzen killing him, because he knew nothing about a class S jutsu that seals him (and which is invisible to the victim until it's too late). Not that this is relevant to the point made.

So in the end, Oro did indeed need more jutsu, why didn't he pull out his 10,000 snakes or triple rashomon, when Hiru was leaping towards him. He already saw the effects of the jutsu, Hiru used to remove the 2 kages, and he was just at 1/3 of his original powers. He had sealed away the other 2/3.

Well, from close quarters he might have not had time. I don't think it's a secret the author doesn't always make everyone act in the smartest way, though he does a good job overall. I certainly don't see what Triple Gates would have done (certainly wouldn't have blocked the reaper seal hand). It also woudln't have fit inside the barrier (nor would 10,000 snakes).

Let's get back to the actual point. Are you seriously suggesting Hirzen could use techniques like the Flying Thunder God or Rasengan? No? Because if you're not, then we shouldn't put much weight on this "he could perform all techniques" angle you're pushing (and which is pretty unsupported in the manga).

Well I had the feeling, you knew your manga facts, so didn't put evidence, but sigh.. Then let me prove it:
Here we see, when Oro first starts to use the 2 kages. Basically he needs a double hand seal to control them, thus he cannot take place in the fight as well (while using them):

Your argument that Oro couldn't fight properly while controlling the Hokage, and that he was limiting their actions, doesn't help the argument that this fight is some big thing for Hirzen.

Oro still has that stance, and he is obviously surprised, about what has just happened. He has no idea that Hiruzen just defeated both former kages, since he has no idea about, what jutsu he just used / is about to use.

Oro knows the Genjutsu has ended, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because he was also blinded by the genjutsu, it may just be he can see it from the outside (in the same way that in bleach one can see the Darkness Bankai of Tosen from the outside). It's utterly unclear, which makes what you've said speculation, and inadmissable.

Hmm, no it doesn't. You proved nothing in that poor thread. You just said that Oro could summon triple rashomon, so he could use his arms. Damn what a thread... Please find and prove that Oro can summon snakes with his hands. I cannot explain the rashomon right now, need to look more into it, but I would guess that it was his drugs/medicine that allowed him to use his hands, and after using them just once, he was already feeling the after effects of his body rotting.
That tatoo on his arm shows 2 snakes. Sasuke gained the very same symbol after absorbing Orochimaru. After Oro was removed from Sasuke, he hasn't summoned a single snake. You see my point? There isn't solid evidence, but neither is yours. Fact is the snake summons have something to do with that tatoo.

Go read the thread about Oro and reply there. This is a pointless distraction here, and I don't feel like repeating myself in two threads. You admit you can't explain the Rashomon... end discussion.

So according to your logic, we can't trust a dime of what is said in the manga, it could be a lie? Iruka would lie to his students? Going by your logic, we would have to categorize people in a trustworthy category, thus your entire thread is utter pointless. The character you can trust the least is Madara. Everything he said about Hashirama could be a lie.

Iruka doesn't even say that though. He lightheartedly says to the kids how the hokage is said to be the strongest, and the Hokage makes a light hearted remark in reply. Who the heck is Iruka to be able to comment seriously on such a thing? He's never even met most Kage, let alone is an expert on their skills. Let's remember, this is a world in which the leafs own ninja didn't really understand how strong Madara was, and even ask Dan "is Madara really so strong?"... "we're fighting him through the 5 kages though". This is a world in which the Shinobi of today don't believe the stories about how strong Hashi was, because it seems like a fairy tale. Iruka is in no position to really comment in this context, and we certainly shouldn't take his vague aside as gospel (he "was said" to be that strong? Just like Haku's jutsu "was said" to be unstoppable?). Madara on the other hand has alot of credibility. He actually fought Hashirama, and has no reason to like the guy, or to make remarks that diminish his own rep. Plus, some of what he says or does is seen in flashbacks... we see a flashback of him fighting Hashi with the fox (and apparently losing). We see a flashback of him getting pissed at someone mentioning Hashirama's name. We see him facing off with Hashi, with sweat dripping down his brow. We see him using techniques Hashi had, like summoning giant forrests of living trees, or wood dragons, telling us "Hashi used this on me", or which are recognised by Tsunade. This is the context we apply to people's comments. One context givs Madara's remarks credibility. The other makes Iruku's remarks pretty meaningless.

I'm sure Hiruzen could do it, if he wanted to bother learning it...

There's a big difference between knowing it, and "could have learnt it". If he didn't know all jutsu, then it shouldn't be used to prop him up.

The rest has already been addressed so thoroughly it doesn't merit another reply. A 5 that isn't always a 5 can't be cited as a meaningful metric of measurement. End of discussion.

 

[apple pie of doom]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

All of your claims are indeed valid, but it only confirms of what I knew already.

The best Kage was however Danzou, purely for the genocide on the uchiha.
All great leaders in the world have at least once done genocide.

 

[Hawker]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

Lol OP you got pwned by EliteKakashi in this page on this post:

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If you can't reply to him, then this thread is dead. Admit it, you hate by trying to bend logic to your liking and then you get pwned and do not respond.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

Lol OP you got pwned by EliteKakashi in this page on this post:

You must be registered for see links

If you can't reply to him, then this thread is dead. Admit it, you hate by trying to bend logic to your liking and then you get pwned and do not respond.

It's quite the reverse. Most of the points he raised had either already been covered in my opening post, or were entirely irrelevant to the actual thread. You (and he) would do well to actually read the posts I've made before making comments like this.

 

[Hawker]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

It's quite the reverse. Most of the points he raised had either already been covered in my opening post, or were entirely irrelevant to the actual thread. You (and he) would do well to actually read the posts I've made before making comments like this.

No not the reverse, what the f*ck are you babbling about. Admit the fact that your logic has wholes in it.

He pwned you about:

-the databook (it is written by Kishi)
-about "why didn't Hiruzen use all the jutsu he knows against Oro and edo Kages"

you just chose to ignore that

also you said this:

"The second one is the constant claim that the 3rd Hokage was "the god of shinobi", "the most powerful Hokage", the most powerful Kage of his time", etc, etc. This claim has virtually no evidence for it, and the evidence that Hirzen was the strongest Hokage is very bad (especially compared to Hashirama."

That's f*cking retarded. The claim itself is a proof since it's Kishimoto's manga and he wrote that. It was stated early in the manga and he wanted us to believe it 'cause..well maybe because it's true?! I don't see any evidence against it either. So what you are doing is just talking down a character for the good of your own views (which have no evidence whatsoever).


You interpret the manga by your own ways...there's no hidden message. There's no hyborbolism. Otherwise we should interpret everything that has ever been stated in the manga as "hyborbolic messages". Some things we just have to assume they are true. Who cares about some fodder character Haku.

 

[NarutoSageUzumaki]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

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[thegame]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

There is no reason to keep discussing it, you don't provide solid proof either, we just interpret it differently, however, the only thing, which gets back at you, is according to you, Madara could use PS. I never said he couldn't, I just said I doubt he could use it in the size we saw against the kages. I think he could use it in Sasukes size at max (with EMS). Now he has rinnengan, and can empty his entire chakra pool to stabilize susanoo of that level. So it's a 10 fold stronger than what I would expect he used against Hashi. But then again, Madara could just be lying to Onoki. Using your logic view of the manga, rofl... So we can never reach anything with this, when you use that kind of understanding regarding Obito and Itachis lies....

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

No not the reverse, what the f*ck are you babbling about. Admit the fact that your logic has wholes in it.

He pwned you about:

-the databook (it is written by Kishi)

This is just a strange point to bring up. From the very first post, I pointed out that the databook was not reliable. That has been pointed out many times in this thread, and Hirzen's own fans have admitted that at the very least you cannot take everything in it literally. For instance, one poster tried to argue that when the databook said Ameratsu was "as hot as the sun" we had to read between the lines, and just assume it was "a hot" jutsu. When I pointed out that the scores assigned to each character often did not make sense, in particular the example of Itachi and Oro having equal scores for genjutsu, posters responded to me that two 5's didn't necessarily equate to the same value. I pointed out that if you were going to ignore stuff in the databook when it suited you, then it was wasn't something you can cite as evidence.

There is nothing confusing about this argument, except to you it seems. Hirzen fans often point to his high databook scores, and say "if his stamina was good still, he'd be the best!". Except that's clearly a non-argument if we can't take the scores at face value in the first place. Hirzen fans point to remarks about how awesome Hirzen is in the databook, except there are also patently ridiculous (and hyperbolic) remarks in the databook. If we can't believe that Ameratsu is "as hot as the sun", then we probably shouldn't have to take a remark that Hirzen was "the god of shinobi" literally either.

Whether Kishi collaborates on writing it is really irrelevant. It's an unreliable source, so you can't cite it.

-about "why didn't Hiruzen use all the jutsu he knows against Oro and edo Kages"

Again, this was responded to in multiple posts. It's also silly for you to mention this, because the guy I was responding to admits he does not think Hirzen knew all jutsu in the leaf, merely that "yeh, if he'd put his mind to it, he could have learnt it". That sort of claim does little to strengthen Hirzen's argument.

It's obvious you are not reading people's posts carefully, and missing the arguments people are making, and should not be encouraged. Your dismissal of Haku as "some fodder ninja" completely misses the point. If we can't believe what Kishi wrote about Haku, we can't just take some off the cuff light hearted remark Kishi had Iruka make seriously either.

You need to look at all the evidence, with context, and weigh it up. The evidence for Hashirama being the strongest Hokage is extremely good. The evidence for Hirzen being the strongest Ho/kage is virtually non-existent, and even the argument that he was a notably strong kage is pretty doubtful. So far he was maybe 3rd or 4th best among Hokage's alone, not counting numerous other notable Kage, and numerous kage level ninja who have given us alot more reason to rank them over Hirzen. The guy wouldn't make my top 20 ninja to be honest.

 

[~Rerrando~]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

Link me to the page where they said this. You are as bad as the other Hirzen fans here, flat out making stuff up to support your agenda.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Never try to down talk me until after I prove that I can't support my statements.
By the way you're spelling his name wrong, it Hiruzen! U_U

 

[Nosferato]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

if he isn't notable why did they carve his face into a mountain? that seems like a pretty big 'hey lets remember this guy'

 

[EliteKakashi]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

Most of what was said above is either irrelevant, or speculative theories which have no real base in the evidence (.e.g. Hirzen had lots of scrolls, he must have had super awesome techniques we didn't see, and he was too dumb to use against Oro). Really silly stuff here. I will say this about the databook though. It's not enough to say "the databook is cannon", and then to say "oh, if the databook is shown to be wrong, then we should interpret the databook in a way which is silly and counter intuitive, so we can maintain the myth the databook is credible". Your analysis of the Genjutsu rating for instance is ridiculous... if Oro and Itachi having a 5 doesn't mean anything, and only represents a vague conceptual ranking of their technical knowledge (but not what they could actually do) then it's meaningless to quote the databook isn't it. That's not a question by the way. If Itachi and Oro both having a 5 doesn't necessarily mean they are equal, then why the heck are Hirzen supporters invoking his databook scores like they mean something? The answer is that they want it both ways.

See, this is what's frustrating.

I try and give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they're being serious. I enjoy serious debates. I'm open to people's opinions and having my own changed. However, people such as yourself try and claim you're being genuine/serious in your discussions, but you go and pull crap like this. Purposely taking what I say out of context/completely ignoring the point and simply trolling to try and anger people. I've seen this far too many times on this forum, and it's why I was reluctant to even post to begin with.

It should have been obvious enough in your opening post when all you tried to do was talk down about one and do nothing but hype the other instead of taking an unbiased look at the subject, but like I said, I tried to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm not going to be drawn any more in to this than I already have been.

I guess you've "done your job" in getting me to actually take the time to make a thoughtful response, so congratulations on that much. That'll be it for me in this thread, though.

 

[2big]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

all i am going to say is i will never read somthing that damn long unless im making money

 

[Nosferato]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

all i am going to say is i will never read somthing that damn long unless im making money

2big have you ever read a book. or even one page of a book

 

[Draxus]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

As for "knowing all jutsu", he clearly doesn't know how to perform them, and if he does he was really dumb not to use them in a fight to the death with Oro.

I stopped reading after this, because this single sentence is so dumb it invalidates any sensible point you could possible have.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Never try to down talk me until after I prove that I can't support my statements.
By the way you're spelling his name wrong, it Hiruzen! U_U

Maybe you should read threads more carefully first, before acting like you've produced some new, unseen material which will stun us. The first of those links has been referenced repeatedly in this thread, and it's Iruka making a hearsay remark in a light hearted way, and the Hokage making a cute response. It's not a serious claim, anymore than most hyperbolic remarks in the manga are. It doesn't even say he is the strongest, it says he was "said to be", and the Hokage offers no meaningful confirmation of that. No more than if I get up to give a speech to introduce a professor to my class and say "he was said to be the leader in his field, let's hear it for Bob!". Worse, the remark is from Iruka, who is in no position to comment meaningfully on such matters. All this has been discussed at length in this thread. What I'll add to it is that Hirzen seemed helpless at stopping the 9 Tails from destroying the village, and had to be bailed out twice by Minato. In addition, he admits Oro is probably stronger than him, the same Oro who is much weaker than many other Shinobi we've seen.

The 2nd link has also been discussed at length in this thread, from the opening post onwards. People have noted the reasons why this is not great evidence, and why it's not an unequivocal comment about how strong he was relative to others. Again, reading this thread first would have helped you.

The last link is to Narutopedia. I am not even going to click on it, as that isn't evidence.

Try reading the thread more seriously.

 

[Hawker]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

...Try reading the thread more seriously.

ROFL! Try writing HirUzen's name right.

Ps. No one takes this thread seriously. You don't reply to anyone that lays pwnage upon you.

 

[~Rerrando~]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

Maybe you should read threads more carefully first, before acting like you've produced some new, unseen material which will stun us. The first of those links has been referenced repeatedly in this thread, and it's Iruka making a hearsay remark in a light hearted way, and the Hokage making a cute response. It's not a serious claim, anymore than most hyperbolic remarks in the manga are. It doesn't even say he is the strongest, it says he was "said to be", and the Hokage offers no meaningful confirmation of that. No more than if I get up to give a speech to introduce a professor to my class and say "he was said to be the leader in his field, let's hear it for Bob!". Worse, the remark is from Iruka, who is in no position to comment meaningfully on such matters. All this has been discussed at length in this thread. What I'll add to it is that Hirzen seemed helpless at stopping the 9 Tails from destroying the village, and had to be bailed out twice by Minato. In addition, he admits Oro is probably stronger than him, the same Oro who is much weaker than many other Shinobi we've seen.

The 2nd link has also been discussed at length in this thread, from the opening post onwards. People have noted the reasons why this is not great evidence, and why it's not a equivocal comment about how strong he was relative to others. Again, reading this thread first would have helped you.

The last link is to Narutopedia. I am not even going to click on it, as that isn't evidence.

Try reading the thread more seriously.

If you weren't trying to be a douche read my first statement you'll see in parenthesis (early in Naruto this said by other ninja speaking about Hiruzen)

ROFL! Try writing HirUzen's name right.

Ps. No one takes this thread seriously. You don't reply to anyone that lays pwnage upon you.

lol

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

If you weren't trying to be a douche read my first statement you'll see in parenthesis (early in Naruto this said by other ninja speaking about Hiruzen)



lol

How I spell Hirzen really had no bearing on whether my argument is correct. Look, I did it again. Hirzen. I will continue to do it, partly because I see it is basically the English translation of his name. In Dragonball they did something similar with the characters names, where they converted names like Kuririn to Krillin (or when they thought people couldn't handle the pronounciation, they out and out changed it, like Tenshinhan to Tien). In English it's pronounced closer to Hirzen than it is Hiruzen, but then that's just my feeling from having lived in Japan for a year.

Get back to the argument son.

 

[~Rerrando~]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

How I spell Hirzen really had no bearing on whether my argument is correct. Look, I did it again. Hirzen. I will continue to do it, partly because I see it is basically the English translation of his name. In Dragonball they did something similar with the characters names, where they converted names like Kuririn to Krillin (or when they thought people couldn't handle the pronounciation, they out and out changed it, like Tenshinhan to Tien). In English it's pronounced closer to Hirzen than it is Hiruzen, but then that's just my feeling from having lived in Japan for a year.

Get back to the argument son.

that had nothing to do with what i just said

 

[ItachiStyle]

Re: Myth busting thread #2 - Hirzen is not "the strongest" Hokage, or even a notable

that had nothing to do with what i just said

No, that was covered in the previous post, which I quoted in my reply. Maybe you should actually read it.