Mystic Gohan, explanation

[Meowazziel]

Mystic Gohan.
By my knowledge, this is Gohan with his full potential unlocked at the time that Old kai did that for him.
Meaning its Gohan's full power at THAT time (not his full potential at any time).
Through training you can gain more access to potential power inside you, as
you wont always be able to tap into your max by default.
However the old kai mystic ritual made Gohan able to tap into all that Gohan had at the time.
Lets call that max at that time 90 for now.

Therefore it was pointless to transform into a ssj, as Mystic already meant that Gohan was drawing
out his max at the time. Meaning there was no such thing as going ssj on top.
As ssj wouldnt draw out extra power, as there wasnt any more to draw out.

Throughout time someone can change.

If Gohan doesnt keep up with his training, his body will weaken. Lets say he can therefore only reach max 60.
Meaning Mystic can be too much for him, as his body cant handle the power (90) he had back than.
Meaning he cant go Mystic or at least not fully.
So he has to resort to a smaller power up like f.e. ssj.

If Gohan keeps up with his training, he might see an increase.
Lets say his potential has increased to 120. His old mystic will draw out 90. Meaning he could do something on top or use no mystic at all but something else that gets him to 120.

Do I understand the Mystic ability correct?
Or does it work differently?
Please confirm if I am right or correct me if I am wrong.

 

[InfiniteMugen]

You seem pretty correct, the mystic transformation simply pulled out the hidden power gohan had at the time... so I'm assuming that max hidden power can decrease or increase depending on his training. The only thing I don't agree with is the ssj thing, I'm pretty sure it was stated in z that he could no longer use the ssj transformation once the kai pulled out his power, although it never really says why

 

[Legendary Saiyan]

Honestly, I wish it didn't affect him turning Super Saiyan. At the same time, that would cause problems if he did go SSJ and have some Mystic form with it.

I'm thinking Gohan still has more hidden power since we have DBS as a continuation.

 

[Kai NB]

Your wording is confusing. Let me see if I get this straight. I'm gonna be using very random numbers here.

We can visually imagine Gohan's strength as a Power Meter. At the time before Elder Kai unlocked his potential, Gohan's full Power Meter was 100, but he could only access up to something like 25 in base form, 50 in SS, 75 in SS2, and 90 when he's totally angry at SS2. So after unlocking his full potential, Gohan could go all the way to 100 just like that. It wouldn't matter if he went SS or SS2 because he's literally at his max. So after years of not training, Gohan's Max Power Meter is now only at 75 instead of 100. So even if he is using his full potential, it's because his Max just got lowered.

So what you're saying here is that the potential of all characters are merely limited by the effort and work they put in. SS and SS2 are not transformations that raise the Power Bar further, but just how much of it someone can access.

Is that sorta what you're saying? Please let me know if I'm on the nose or not

 

[Meowazziel]

Your wording is confusing. Let me see if I get this straight. I'm gonna be using very random numbers here.

We can visually imagine Gohan's strength as a Power Meter. At the time before Elder Kai unlocked his potential, Gohan's full Power Meter was 100, but he could only access up to something like 25 in base form, 50 in SS, 75 in SS2, and 90 when he's totally angry at SS2. So after unlocking his full potential, Gohan could go all the way to 100 just like that. It wouldn't matter if he went SS or SS2 because he's literally at his max. So after years of not training, Gohan's Max Power Meter is now only at 75 instead of 100. So even if he is using his full potential, it's because his Max just got lowered.

So what you're saying here is that the potential of all characters are merely limited by the effort and work they put in. SS and SS2 are not transformations that raise the Power Bar further, but just how much of it someone can access.

Is that sorta what you're saying? Please let me know if I'm on the nose or not

Almost.
Sorry if it was a tad confusing. Its not easy to explain.

I used random numbers as well and purposely not the number 100, as I am not using percentages and I didnt want the numbers be mistakenly seen as such.

You sorta got what I meant up to "It wouldn't matter if he went SS or SS2 because he's literally at his max."
Afterwards there are a few misunderstandings.

Mystic is as said, the potential that Gohan had at the time that old Kai did the ritual. It is not his potential at all times. It is his potential at that time of the ritual. I gave that the number 90 and 90 was his max back than.
So using ssj/ssj2 back than was pointless as mystic already drew out his max.

Yes I see transformations as one of multiple ways to help draw out potential. If the potential is inside, you can transform through the method required. If its not there yet you cant.
It also explains why saiyans didnt always transform into ssj in desperate times of need. Reason: the potential wasnt there yet.

Potential can change through time.
However the mystic ability will not change, unless refreshed at old kai (if refresh exists).
If not refreshed, Gohan's mystic will always try to draw out the potential he had at the time of the old Kai ritual.
Meaning always 90.

It can happen that Gohan weakens due to not keeping up with training.
That the max he can handle became f.e. 60.
If his body cant handle 90 anymore, he wont be able to summon the power that mystic gave him.
Meaning he cant go mystic, unless something as partly mystic exist (which doesnt I think).

This explans why he went ssj in revival of F, as mystic would have been too much for him to handle.
Ssj drew out less power than mystic, but he could not go mystic, as that would go over 60.
Even ssj was difficult for him back than.

If he had kept up his training and became stronger, mystic would have still given 90. Lets say his max became 120. He could do mystic (90) + something else
or use other means to try to tap into 120.

If he made his base way stronger than in dbz, at some point ssj might draw out more power than mystic even. If he got his base over 90 there would not even be a point anymore to go mystic.

Mystic wont do 120 unless he would let old kai refresh it at a time that his max is 120.

I hope it is a bit more clear what I tryed to say.
Does his mystic work this way?
I am not 100% sure.
Therefore I made this thread to have a discussion about it.

You seem pretty correct, the mystic transformation simply pulled out the hidden power gohan had at the time... so I'm assuming that max hidden power can decrease or increase depending on his training. The only thing I don't agree with is the ssj thing, I'm pretty sure it was stated in z that he could no longer use the ssj transformation once the kai pulled out his power, although it never really says why

I am quite sure that was said that he still could transform but that it was not needed.
Reason being that mystic already drew out his max back than.
Going ssj would thus not make him stronger back than.

 

[startup98]

Believe in the Hype!

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Fourth Databook proof!!!

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Translation: Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama in the Nature Elements. All five nature alterations, Ability in all Hiden (clan techniques), Genjutsu, Ability in all Ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. His title of Professor is no joke, hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member

5 Elements - Not even his full power???

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Since Hiruzen was revived at old age, his chakra and power should be as low as before but wait... Tobirama states that the Hokage have been revived "close to original power" this means Hiruzen was revived weaker then he was alive at old age yet he was able to produce the 5 Elements at such mastery that it was even capable of stalemating the Buddha Statue while the 5 Kage couldn't. Just imagine his Prime.

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Hiruzen knows and could perform all non KKG Hidden Leaf Jutsu which equals =

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Broken Ninjutsu versatility

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Hidden Leaf Tech

Neutalizer technique, Bringer of Darkness, Great Clone Explosion and all 8 Gates at will.
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Water Colliding Wave
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Trumpet
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Earth Release: Multiple Earth-Style Wall (Anime only)
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Eye Mind Reading
Front Lotus
Lion Combo
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Shadow Clone Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Water Needle
Shadow of the Dancing Leaf
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough


Hiruzen (Sarutobi Clan)
Fire Release: Ash Pile Burning
Fire Release: Great Flame Technique
Earth Release Shadow Clone
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet
Earth Release: Earth Flow River
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet
Roof Tile Shuriken
Shadow Clone Technique
Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Monkey King: Enma)
Telescope Technique


Izunaka Clan
Beast Human Clone
Dynamic Marking
Fang Passing Fang
Fang Rotating Fang (Manga only) - Capable of crushing stone
Fang Wolf Fang - The power is great enough to dent a Rashōmon gate
Four Legs Technique
Human Beast Combination Transformation: Double-Headed Wolf
Passing Fang

Akimichi clan
Butterfly Bullet Bombing
Calorie Control
Double Human Bullet Tank
Human Bullet Tank
Multi-Size Technique
Partial Multi-Size Technique
Spiked Human Bullet Tank
Super Multi-Size Technique
Super Open Hand Slap

Nara clan
Black Spider Lily
Shadow Gathering Technique
Shadow Imitation Shuriken Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Shadow Sewing Technique
Shadow–Neck Binding Technique

Yamanaka Clan
Mind Body Disturbance Technique
Mind Body Switch Technique
Mind Clone Switch Technique
Mind Disturbance Dance Performance Technique (Anime only)
Mind Puppet Switch Cursed Seal Technique
Yamanaka Clan Telepathy

Uchiha Clan
Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique
Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Manipulating Windmill Triple Blades

Uzumaki Clan

Dead Demon Consuming Seal
Five Elements Unseal

OP Summoning Monkey King Enma

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The Third hokage's comrade in arms, the monkey king enma's transformation jutsu Characterized by the hardness of diamond and its at-will extensibility, Kongou Nyoi-Bou is Sandaime's"weapon of choice", so to speak and with it in hand he's made it through a world of war for an extended period of time.

Also, when Enma is transformed into Diamond Shifting Staff, it is also possible that he can attack out of his own free will, his claws and fangs add an element of surprise and irregularity. Forged in the fire of battle, its at-will transformation-based attack and defense go beyond the scope of proficiency, to attain the realm of Shinobi "godhood".

-The main method of attack consists in strikes and thrusts that take advantage of its extensibility. The hardness of diamond translates into destructive power.

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Heading:
自在に変幻する堅固なる獄！！
A solid prison that changes shape at will!!


After transforming himself into an adamantium staff, Enma clones himself in staff form then boxes the enemy into a lattice.

The prison wall with the toughness of adamantium cannot possibly be broken, and the captured enemy is left with nothing but the humility of defeat.

Durability Feats - Super Kage Bunshin???

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Hiruzen has shown to have excellent durability feats at age 69 with his Kage Bunshin as one of his clones was stabbed by Hashirama with 4 Kunai in the chest yet did not disperse until Hiruzen was done with it. He was also able to hold Orochimaru's soul for an hour long despite being stabbed through the chest by the Sword of Kusangi.

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Dangerous CQC

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Even past his Prime, Hiruzen had showed excellent Close Quarter Combat skills. Moments after sealing parts of his soul away to seal the Edo Hokage and exhausting his remaining Chakra on Kage Bunshin, he was still able to easily disarm Orochimaru from his Sword of Kusangi with great ease and catch him to prepare his sealing Jutsu. He was also able to easily break through the Shinju branches and save Naruto despite Tobirama and Minato unable to get through.

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Further Hype and Testimonials

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Orochimaru admitting that he would be killed by a 59 year old Hiruzen.

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Danzo in his dying moments admitting inferiority despite possessing Izanagi, Kotoamatsukami and Hashirama's DNA.

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Kabuto, a spy who has spied on and knows all about the Shinobi countries states that an old Hiruzen was stronger then all the 5 Kage at the time. Just imagine his Prime.

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Even with the entire SA and 5 Kage, Shikamaru states that only Hiruzen could contend with Guruguru at the time.

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Considers himself to be the strongest in his group which also included Tobirama. Confident enough to take on the entire Kinkaku and survive.

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Extra Databook Hype

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"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and was called the strongest of all the Hokage".

the Sandaime was the strongest.

Databook 1, Page 117

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.

Databook 1, Page 119

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage.

DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

"Hiruzen in his Prime was able to counter every Leaf Jutsu in Existance including all MS and EMS skills." DB2 Pg 84

Konohamaru paragraph:

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

He who even holds the affectionate name of "Professor," being well-versed in every jutsu that exists in the village of Konohagakure

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[00Rinne]

Mystic Gohan.
By my knowledge, this is Gohan with his full potential unlocked at the time that Old kai did that for him.
Meaning its Gohan's full power at THAT time (not his full potential at any time).
Through training you can gain more access to potential power inside you, as
you wont always be able to tap into your max by default.
However the old kai mystic ritual made Gohan able to tap into all that Gohan had at the time.
Lets call that max at that time 90 for now.

Therefore it was pointless to transform into a ssj, as Mystic already meant that Gohan was drawing
out his max at the time. Meaning there was no such thing as going ssj on top.
As ssj wouldnt draw out extra power, as there wasnt any more to draw out.

Throughout time someone can change.

If Gohan doesnt keep up with his training, his body will weaken. Lets say he can therefore only reach max 60.
Meaning Mystic can be too much for him, as his body cant handle the power (90) he had back than.
Meaning he cant go Mystic or at least not fully.
So he has to resort to a smaller power up like f.e. ssj.

If Gohan keeps up with his training, he might see an increase.
Lets say his potential has increased to 120. His old mystic will draw out 90. Meaning he could do something on top or use no mystic at all but something else that gets him to 120.

Do I understand the Mystic ability correct?
Or does it work differently?
Please confirm if I am right or correct me if I am wrong.

Whaoo that was alil confusing but i think i got the just of it..

Gohan's mystic form is his ultimate potential, there's nothing higher for him, confirmed by the kais.. turning ssj wouldn't do much for his mystic state because he's already at his limit.. IMO Piccolo's training wont do much for him physically but it could help him for his mystic form cause it's about the mental training just as much as it is physical..

Thing is!, Gohan needs physical strength as well so his mystic form would need somethin on top of it to push him beyond mystic.. (Goku & Vegeta can't be the only ones to gain the power of gods.. Though I do think there's different lvl's of god mode) Gohan's power can still be sensed so he is not ready for those who can suppressed an not be sensed.. (Specifically gods)

I think that Gohan can truly reach the pinnacle of god mode unlike that of Goku & Vegeta at this point.. Gohan can do as Beerus does an be in a contant state of full power with his mystich form on top of god mode. Remember Goku & Gohan staying in ssj mode for the cell games..
I think it would be the same for him in mystic mode to god mode.. Beerus is in a constant state of god mode. (He can't be sensed no matter what he does.. GM) Gohan should be able to replicate that same since an truly become a god without having to transform.. (Full power at the ready at anytime)

 

[Meowazziel]

Whaoo that was alil confusing but i think i got the just of it..

Gohan's mystic form is his ultimate potential, there's nothing higher for him, confirmed by the kais.. turning ssj wouldn't do much for his mystic state because he's already at his limit.. IMO Piccolo's training wont do much for him physically but it could help him for his mystic form cause it's about the mental training just as much as it is physical..

Thing is!, Gohan needs physical strength as well so his mystic form would need somethin on top of it to push him beyond mystic.. (Goku & Vegeta can't be the only ones to gain the power of gods.. Though I do think there's different lvl's of god mode) Gohan's power can still be sensed so he is not ready for those who can suppressed an not be sensed.. (Specifically gods)

I think that Gohan can truly reach the pinnacle of god mode unlike that of Goku & Vegeta at this point.. Gohan can do as Beerus does an be in a contant state of full power with his mystich form on top of god mode. Remember Goku & Gohan staying in ssj mode for the cell games..
I think it would be the same for him in mystic mode to god mode.. Beerus is in a constant state of god mode. (He can't be sensed no matter what he does.. GM) Gohan should be able to replicate that same since an truly become a god without having to transform.. (Full power at the ready at anytime)

Gohan his mystic is only his potential at the time that Old kai did the ritual imo.
Potential can change through time.
I think Mystic is not Gohan's potential at all times.

 

[00Rinne]

Gohan his mystic is only his potential at the time that Old kai did the ritual imo.
Potential can change through time.
I think Mystic is not Gohan's potential at all times.

Correct!..
Mystic is like his base form with everything he has ready to go.. (SSj/SS2 is all put into mystic form, if you will) But that potential can rise with training at any given time.. Whis once said that they needed to stay in base form to reach their ultimate potentials (No transformation) as the kais did with Gohan's training.. Goku & Vegeta are not really what it means to be gods because they can't be sensed once they transform, they're still transforming to reach the pinnacle.. (I'd call it semi demi god) We've not once seen any of the gods (Beerus/Champa or even Whis) transform for their power to not be felt or sensed..

If I'm correct, then Goku an the Saiyans has along way to go before they reach the true pinnacles of GM... (There's no transformation for that)

 

[-Shiro-]

Honestly, I wish it didn't affect him turning Super Saiyan. At the same time, that would cause problems if he did go SSJ and have some Mystic form with it.

I'm thinking Gohan still has more hidden power since we have DBS as a continuation.

he can go ss with his "mystic" dint he do it against freeza?

 

[Meowazziel]

he can go ss with his "mystic" dint he do it against freeza?

He probably didnt.

Master Roshi asked if he had kept up with his training.
He said no and even had doubt if he could still go ssj.
If even just ssj was difficult, obviously anything more (if he could do Mystic on top) would be too hard for his body to handle.
Therefore I think he didnt combine both back at revival of F.

Correct!..
Mystic is like his base form with everything he has ready to go.. (SSj/SS2 is all put into mystic form, if you will) But that potential can rise with training at any given time.. Whis once said that they needed to stay in base form to reach their ultimate potentials (No transformation) as the kais did with Gohan's training.. Goku & Vegeta are not really what it means to be gods because they can't be sensed once they transform, they're still transforming to reach the pinnacle.. (I'd call it semi demi god) We've not once seen any of the gods (Beerus/Champa or even Whis) transform for their power to not be felt or sensed..

If I'm correct, then Goku an the Saiyans has along way to go before they reach the true pinnacles of GM... (There's no transformation for that)

Maybe Mystic is his base form with everything else ready to go (ssj1+ssj2) as you say. At least back than during the old Kai ritual.

Are you saying also new transformations are added into it if he learns those?

However Mystic also gave a massive boost to his base and therefore to his ssj1+ssj2.
I say also to his base, as he was a lot stronger than his ssj2 self after the ritual of Old kai.
Mystic just drew out all his potential he had at that particular time of the ritual.
It thus also drew out some stil not tapped in potential in his base (that you would normally try to tap into more and more through training).

He couldnt go Mystic in revival of F and stil cant go Mystic atm (dragonball super episode 80).
Probably because it is too harsh on his body.
If Mystic drew out your full potential at any time, it would always be ready to use right?
Just weaker if your potential has dropped. Yet its not always ready to use.
Gohan is not able to go Mystic right now.
Isnt that an argument that Mystic works different than drawing out your potential at any time?
If it also draws out ssj2, it would be the reason that Gohan doesnt go Mystic, as he cant handle ssj2 right now.
If not, than there is a different reason for him not using Mystic.
Maybe Mystic cant downgrade compared to the power amount at the time of the ritual.

Lets assume current episode Gohan can go ssj2 with no problem for his body and he is stronger than he was vs super buu (he is not, but lets assume).

What would Mystic do?
Draw out all his new nowadays potential?
Draw out the exact amount of power he had at the time of the ritual?
Draw out ssj1+ssj2 in base + maybe the sleeping powers from the ritual (not all his current sleeping powers).
With sleeping powers I mean potential that you would normally try to tap into by methods like training, transformations, pushing yourself to your limits etc.

Wouldnt Mystic be a bit hax if it always drew out your max potential for your base (+all your transformations/ssj1+ssj2) at the time that you activate the ability, as long as your body can handle that potential?

I do like your idea of Gohan not needing transformations to reach God ki, due to the Mystic ability (which is not a true transformation imo). However there is no need for Gohan to be special with a potential Mystic with ssjblue included. As old kai could also do that for Goku and Vegeta.

Besides we have learned that there are beings who are selected as candidates for the position of God of destruction (Toppo universe 11). So they are not gods at first?
Maybe Beerus and Champa were just mortals once upon a time.
Meaning maybe mortals can learn how to use god ki or someone may get god ki once they are given the position of God of destruction? In that case you could get there without Mystic.
Wasnt Dende able to sense god ki? Maybe he was given that ability once he got the position of guardian of earth.
Among people who can sense god kai are guardians and kais. Dende is a guardian.
Some people learn the ability to sense god ki. Goku and Vegeta learned to sense god ki before they learned ssj blue.

Spoiler

Godly ki sense - Since godly ki cannot be sensed by regular beings, gaining the ability to sense godly ki must be learned separately. Deities like the Gods of Destruction, their attendants, and the Supreme Kai can sense god ki thanks to possessing it, and other lesser deities such as Guardians and Kais are also able to sense it. Goku gained the ability to sense god ki after temporarily becoming a Super Saiyan God, and Vegeta gained it after several months of training with Whis.

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People can train their body up to the point that they can handle more power than they can tap into at the time.
They train hard, but there is still some potential left, that the person could handle, but hasnt been able to tap into yet (still room for more training, a transformation, pushing yourself somehow to your limits by some method).
Mystic would always draw that out. That is what you describe right?
Also new transformations are added into Mystic even if Gohan didnt knew them at the time of the ritual?
Or would old kai have to do a new ritual to include a new transformation into Mystic?

Maybe he should do the ritual for all universe 7 fighters before the tournament or the whole universe to increase the average mortal lvl haha (the latter would take an unrealistic bucketload of time though).

Anyway if Gohan could add new transformations into mystic, shouldnt he be able to remove any from it as well?
Like for example if ssj1 is the max for his body to handle atm and he cant go ssj2, because of that, that Gohan can still activate Mystic with only ssj1 included (and thus not getting yellow hair).