My Madara Thread

[saaaaaadpanda]

The Panda's Madara Thread

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Please forgive me if any of this has been discussed in other threads​

In this thread I seek to discuss the ramifications of Madara's release from Edo Tensei as well as his current motivations for his actions. I will also be dispelling some common misconceptions.

Q: Why didn't he release himself earlier?

Spoiler

Madara was aware that he was summoned by Kabuto, an ally of Tobi's but someone Madara was unfamiliar with. Given that Kabuto is an unknown factor to Madara and he would inherently not trust the snakey bastard, why not take things into his own hands and release himself from the get go? Furthermore, upon realizing that he was fading, why did he release an attack on Tsunade, rather than making sure he was secure and released?

A:
Unfortunately, the answer to both these questions seems to be that Kishimoto is the world's greatest tease. Madara's actions in this case are illogical and only served to keep us on the edge of our seats for a handful of chapters.

Q: Is Madara still invincible? Does he have unlimited chakra?

Spoiler

Many people are arguing about the concept that Edo Tenseis have unlimited chakra. It has also been called into question whether Madara has retained the Edo invincibility/regeneration properties (or whether he is still an Edo at all).

A:
The answer to all parts of this question is "yes". Madara is still an Edo and as such is a spirit bound to the physical world in an indestructible body. Furthermore, he does have unlimited chakra, as all Edo's do. Whether you define "unlimited chakra" as chakra that is never depleted or chakra to will continue to regenerate endlessly (the "training mode" theory), it is inconsequential. By the way, I tend to agree more with the second theory.

Q: Can Madara or Tobi revive Madara's living body using the Rinnegan?

Spoiler

It is known that the Naraka Path of the Rinnegan can be used to revive dead bodies with the King of Hell. People have questioned whether this path will be used by either Madara or Tobi to bring Madara truly back to life.

A:
It is impossible for Madara to resurrect himself. He cannot transfer his soul into a living body while it is currently bound in the Edo form. Tobi cannot currently resurrect Madara while Madara is an Edo for the same reasons. Edo Tensei has to be released. It has been called into question whether Madara's true body can be resurrected at all, considering that the Naraka path has only been shown to revive recently deceased people. However, given that Tobi's original plan was to resurrect Madara using Nagato, I assume it's possible.

Q: Why wasn't Tobi & Madara's plan to use Edo Tensei to revive Madara rather than attempting Rinnegan revival?

Spoiler

People have called into question why the original plan was to use the Rinnegan rather than Edo Tensei. This is mainly because as a released Edo Tensei, Madara has key advantages: invincibility, unlimited chakra, and enrichment with Hashirama for a boob.

A:
The simplest answer is that Tobi does not know or is not capable of using Edo Tensei. Clearly Tobi knew what Edo Tensei was prior to Kabuto showing him. However, he obviously cannot use it, otherwise he would have. Further supporting evidence is that Tobi does not know Edo Tensei because he did not recognize when Kabuto gave him incorrect seals for releasing Edo Tensei whereas Madara knew and used them to release himself.

Q: How can Madara be defeated?

Spoiler

It has become clear that Madara will not be unwillingly released from Edo Tensei. This leaves three options: Madara can be sealed, he can be persuaded to release himself by genjutsu, or he can willingly release himself.

A:
It is highly unlikely that Madara can be sealed and even less likely that he can be trapped in genjutsu. Therefore, the most plausible option is that Madara will release himself. How this can come to be is anyone's guess.

Q: Why is Madara fighting at all?

Spoiler

Knowing that he could have released himself at any point, Madara chose to fight the kages. This seems illogical because it distracts from his real goal, the Moon's Eye Plan. Given that Madara has unlimited chakra as an Edo and that he is capable of performing Tsukuyomi, why doesn't he just forget the Bijuu and cast infinite Tsukuyomi himself?

A:
There is no real good answer. Basically, he wanted to test the kages' power and plot no jutsu

Conclusion: Madara's ongoing presence serves only to confuse the plot line and entertain fanboys. Unless there's a really good flashback sequence, it seems all for naught.

 

[Hipster Madara]

Good Madara thread.
I approve. xd

 

[DrPotato]

1. I think it does make sense ...
madara says that he only released the CONTRACT between him and kabuto ...meaning that madara is still an edo, but even if kabuto does give him command he isnt affacted ...and yes: this also means if kabuto gives the "command" for him to be released from edo tensei. And why the hell would kabuto allow madara to release himself from the contract .... but as kabuto was unconscious he would be hardly able to stop madara from doin this.

2. agreed

3. cant agree any more

4. agreed partly .... i believe that tobi has no clue about how to use / dispell edo tensei ...but i think that madara still was somehow related to orochimaru and that he knew the seals to release the edo tensei from that very orochimaru.

5. we still have too less information on how the released madara will act, or even what he is capable of (though its seems like he could kick anyones ass at this time).

6. lold and agreed ^^

 

[Uchihahahaha]

What page did he release himself on? That page says release, but it still seems like he was overcoming it earlier.

 

[Joon]

Basically, his stay on earth is pointless. He had no flashbacks, however, bits of information about himself or Hashirama. Kishi needs to make a flashback to where both Hashirama and Madara split apart, before Madara's departure. His ranting is annoying.

On-topic: These was a nice summary and good questions. I just want to know, what is Tobi and Madara connection besides the Moon Eye Plan and the full action battle scene of Hashirama and Madara? Also, Tobi's identity.

 

[saaaaaadpanda]

Good Madara thread.
I approve. xd

Thanks. I doubt anyone will read all of it, but I felt somebody needed to put out a summary that was somewhat digestible.

Basically, his stay on earth is pointless. He had no flashbacks, however, bits of information about himself or Hashirama. Kishi needs to make a flashback to where both Hashirama and Madara split apart, before Madara's departure. His ranting is annoying.

On-topic: These was a nice summary and good questions. I just want to know, what is Tobi and Madara connection besides the Moon Eye Plan and the full action battle scene of Hashirama and Madara? Also, Tobi's identity.

I would tell you if I knew. I tried to stick with questions with known answers or questions that would likely never have an answer.

What page did he release himself on? That page says release, but it still seems like he was overcoming it earlier.

I'm going to make a really literal interpretation and say that he was released when it says "release".

 

[Uchihahahaha]

I'm going to make a really literal interpretation and say that he was released when it says "release".

Ok, thanks. The "Release" was confusing at first, but if that's what it says then, oh well....xd

 

[Sarutobi Sasuke]

+ rep, great thread.

Lol Kishi is a tease but I dont think he's illogical this time around. This might explain question 1. ( Its an earlier post)

Q: Why didn't he release himself earlier?

The Talisman that is added after the Edo is summoned is what allowed Kabuto and Orochmaru to control their summonings. Tobirama's version probably allowed the summoning to do as it pleases, same as any other summoning.

I'm also sure Kabuto placed his Talisman in Madara. Which probably sets certain parameters that his zombies are forced to follow when he's not controlling them.

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is the fact that some of the other Edo zombies (e.g.Chiyo) were still fighting even though Kabuto was unconscious and stuck in Izanami. It was this talisman that kept Madara from doing anything Kabuto would frown upon. The Talismans were probably disabled the moment Kabuto released Edo Tensei. Dan gained full control of himself at exactly

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moment in time. Which means that all the other Edos, including Madara, also gained full control at that specific time. And that was Madara's window of opportunity to release his summoning contract. A normal contract seems to go both ways, seeing as summonings have summoned their casters in the past. AKA a reverse summoning. Edo Tensi is, after all, just a summoning jutsu. So, it makes perfect sense that the summoning would also be able to release the contract between them.

 

[saaaaaadpanda]

Ok, thanks. The "Release" was confusing at first, but if that's what it says then, oh well....xd

Fair enough. When it comes to confusing things, sometimes you have to not think so hard and try to acknowledge that Kishi means what he says... and then he'll prove you wrong in the next chapter, but whatever.

+ rep, great thread.

Lol Kishi is a tease but I dont think he's illogical this time around. This might explain question 1. ( Its an earlier post)

Spoiler

The Talisman that is added after the Edo is summoned is what allowed Kabuto and Orochmaru to control their summonings. Tobirama's version probably allowed the summoning to do as it pleases, same as any other summoning.

I'm also sure Kabuto placed his Talisman in Madara. Which probably sets certain parameters that his zombies are forced to follow when he's not controlling them.

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is the fact that some of the other Edo zombies (e.g.Chiyo) were still fighting even though Kabuto was unconscious and stuck in Izanami. It was this talisman that kept Madara from doing anything Kabuto would frown upon. The Talismans were probably disabled the moment Kabuto released Edo Tensei. Dan gained full control of himself at exactly this moment in time. Which means that all the other Edos, including Madara, also gained full control at that specific time. And that was Madara's window of opportunity to release his summoning contract. A normal contract seems to go both ways, seeing as summonings have summoned their casters in the past. AKA a reverse summoning. Edo Tensi is, after all, just a summoning jutsu. So, it makes perfect sense that the summoning would also be able to release the contract between them.

I agree that it's possible Madara was prevented from releasing himself until Kabuto was under Izanami. However, it's not definite and I don't know what the hell they're talking about with "talismans".

 

[Never]

he might release himself because of narutos words of sense XD like with most other enemies XD

 

[Chagy]

+rep

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The only question i want to ask, why'd Madara as of now, would want to to be revived? If he is -alive-, wouldn't he lose his unlimited chakra etc?

 

[DrPotato]

Fair enough. When it comes to confusing things, sometimes you have to not think so hard and try to acknowledge that Kishi means what he says... and then he'll prove you wrong in the next chapter, but whatever.



I agree that it's possible Madara was prevented from releasing himself until Kabuto was under Izanami. However, it's not definite and I don't know what the hell they're talking about with "talismans".

i think this might be some modifications of the kunai orochimarus used in his battle with the 3rd....they seemed to be inscripted and are used as some kind of "program" to control the summonings.

 

[Sarutobi Sasuke]

I agree that it's possible Madara was prevented from releasing himself until Kabuto was under Izanami. However, it's not definite and I don't know what the hell they're talking about with "talismans".

No. You misread my post slightly. I didn't say this:

"Madara was prevented from releasing himself until Kabuto was under Izanami."​

Hell, I dont even think thats really possible.


Firstly, this is the talisman everybody's talking about. (its that Kunai with the tag)

Spoiler

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Secondly:

From Nrutopedia - "After the individual has been summoned and awakened, the summoner can bind the individual to their will by using a

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, which is attached to the end of a kunai and implanted in the brain.

Different talismans can be used to enact different degrees of control. Orochimaru's talismans completely eliminated the personalities of the summoned, turning them into mindless killing machines under his command. Kabuto prefers to use a weaker binding talisman on certain individuals, allowing them to retain some degree of their own personality."

In other words, these talismans are what allowed Kabuto to control his summonings. Without it his summonings are able to do as they please. I think Orichimaru was the first to add talismans to his summonings. He claimed that this perfected Edo Tensei.

So thats why I claimed that Madara could not escape earlier because the Talismans still "worked their magic" to a certain degree even when the summoner [Kabuto] is unconscious or does not control his Edo Zombies. And this is also why I claimed that releasing Edo Tensei might have disabled the Talismans. Which is why Edo's like Dan and Madara were able to act freely for those last couple of seconds.

The only reason I mentioned Izanami was to prove that Kabuto's Edo Zombies were still fighting the Alliance even though he was unconscious. Chyio was shown fighting even after Kabuto was obviously unconscious at that very moment. The reason behind that is the talismant that Kabuto implanted in her. And I'm almost 100% certain that even Madara had a Talisman.

 

[Amegakure Madoka Rikuto]

Premium. How do I make a link for this!?!

 

[Krynnz]

The Panda's Madara Thread

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Please forgive me if any of this has been discussed in other threads​

In this thread I seek to discuss the ramifications of Madara's release from Edo Tensei as well as his current motivations for his actions. I will also be dispelling some common misconceptions.

Q: Why didn't he release himself earlier?

Spoiler

Madara was aware that he was summoned by Kabuto, an ally of Tobi's but someone Madara was unfamiliar with. Given that Kabuto is an unknown factor to Madara and he would inherently not trust the snakey bastard, why not take things into his own hands and release himself from the get go? Furthermore, upon realizing that he was fading, why did he release an attack on Tsunade, rather than making sure he was secure and released?

A:
Unfortunately, the answer to both these questions seems to be that Kishimoto is the world's greatest tease. Madara's actions in this case are illogical and only served to keep us on the edge of our seats for a handful of chapters.

Conclusion: Madara's ongoing presence serves only to confuse the plot line and entertain fanboys. Unless there's a really good flashback sequence, it seems all for naught.

In regards to why didn't madara release himself earlier. it has nothing to do with kabuto being unconscious, strictly the fact that kabuto set madara to fight the kages, but knew how the edo worked and figured if he tried to release the edo kabuto would crank up the magic on him and turn him mindless.

Once he felt ET was released he knew he had a set amount of time to release the contract to become haxxors and do as he will. Depending on what he does next chapter maybe he won't toy with the kages (i doubt it because it doesn't seem he'd be the type to do that). I know thats kind've a stretch but we'll see next chapter I guess.

+Rep very good thread.

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

Great thread +rep
Everything you said was pretty correct to me.

I had two things I would like to add, madara is a cocky bastard he would never turn down a battle and the 5 kages seem to be his only challenege that is a small reason why he is fighting.

And also he cannot cast tsukuyomi by himself he doesn't have enough chakra he only has 100% of his chakra who said his chakra pool is enough.

Also I think madara's edo soul can be removed by human path then revived but I am not sure.

I think madara might scrap the rinnegan revival now because this one seems much better

 

[raju22]

I agree, it actually serve's no main purpose in the current story line until we see a solid flash back.

 

[Whiteknight]

Q: Why didn't he release himself earlier?
Unfortunately, the answer to both these questions seems to be that Kishimoto is the world's greatest tease. Madara's actions in this case are illogical and only served to keep us on the edge of our seats for a handful of chapters.

False. It's not illogical, we just don't know the information yet. It's very possible that not releasing himself from the jutsu has benefits. We know that Edo Tensei has many benefits: invincibility and regeneration, immortality, at least some measure of increased chakra capacity (and maybe infinite chakra, as has been suggested). Releasing himself from the jutsu may make some or all of these benefits disappear. Madara might not be invincible anymore, for instance.

Also, there's no reason to suspect that Madara was ABLE to release himself. Before Kabuto released the technique, Madara was under Kabuto's control. That control was weakened for various reasons, but it was control none the less. Remember how, in the moments before he disappeared, Dan was able to control his own movements again? There was a brief window where Madara was able to do the same, and he used that window to release himself.

Q: Is Madara still invincible? Does he have unlimited chakra?

Spoiler

Many people are arguing about the concept that Edo Tenseis have unlimited chakra. It has also been called into question whether Madara has retained the Edo invincibility/regeneration properties (or whether he is still an Edo at all).

A:
The answer to all parts of this question is "yes". Madara is still an Edo and as such is a spirit bound to the physical world in an indestructible body.

Spoiler

This is all speculation. We don't know the answers yet because Kishi didn't tell us. You're just guessing, and your guess leads to the "illogical" behavior you describe above. If you guess the other way, that Madara is now limited from being released from the technique, then the answer to your first question is not illogical. If your premise, that Madara has all the same benefits as he had, and that leads to the contradiction that he should have released himself earlier, then your premise must be wrong.

A:
It is impossible for Madara to resurrect himself. He cannot transfer his soul into a living body while it is currently bound in the Edo form. Tobi cannot currently resurrect Madara while Madara is an Edo for the same reasons. Edo Tensei has to be released. It has been called into question whether Madara's true body can be resurrected at all, considering that the Naraka path has only been shown to revive recently deceased people. However, given that Tobi's original plan was to resurrect Madara using Nagato, I assume it's possible.

We don't know if he is "bound" to anything any more. We know that his soul has not left after being released, but we don't know if it's something like a seal creating a permanent binding or whether it's just force of will or some other technique. Minato's soul cannot be summoned because it is in a seal. Madara's soul might not be in anything so strong and may still be able to be summoned against his will (for anybody willing and able to do such a thing). We also don't know if the Rinnegan's Naraka path is like a summoning technique or if it's something different and more fundamental than that (and therefore might not respect seals on souls).

Q: Why wasn't Tobi & Madara's plan to use Edo Tensei to revive Madara rather than attempting Rinnegan revival?
People have called into question why the original plan was to use the Rinnegan rather than Edo Tensei. This is mainly because as a released Edo Tensei, Madara has key advantages: invincibility, unlimited chakra, and enrichment with Hashirama for a boob.

A:
The simplest answer is that Tobi does not know or is not capable of using Edo Tensei. Clearly Tobi knew what Edo Tensei was prior to Kabuto showing him. However, he obviously cannot use it, otherwise he would have. Further supporting evidence is that Tobi does not know Edo Tensei because he did not recognize when Kabuto gave him incorrect seals for releasing Edo Tensei whereas Madara knew and used them to release himself.

When Nagato used Rinne Tensei, Tobi required that "he was supposed to use that for me", not "he was supposed to use that for the real Madara". There's no evidence that Tobi ever intended to revive Madara, and in fact he seemed upset that Kabuto had done it. Notice also that Nagato's motivations, such as the reason why he was collecting the Bijuu, were different from Tobi's secret motivations (the Moon's Eye Plan). There's no reason to suspect that Tobi would have done what Madara wanted, even if that was the publically-agreed "plan". The simplest answer is that Tobi didn't want Madara to be revived at all: Tobi had the Bijuu and Tobi has the sharingan (and now the Rinnegan), and Tobi wanted to rule the world by himself.

Q: How can Madara be defeated?
It has become clear that Madara will not be unwillingly released from Edo Tensei. This leaves three options: Madara can be sealed, he can be persuaded to release himself by genjutsu, or he can willingly release himself.

A:
It is highly unlikely that Madara can be sealed and even less likely that he can be trapped in genjutsu. Therefore, the most plausible option is that Madara will release himself. How this can come to be is anyone's guess.

Your definition of "plausible" is different from what I am used to. Madara has a plan for world domination that requires careful and concerted effort over many years, meticulous planning, the manipulation of various powerful ninjas and even entire nations, and control over the primordial forces of the universe including the Bijuu and the powers of life and death itself. You think it's "plausible" that he just gives up and goes away after everything he's put into this plan so far? That's absurd.

Madara is going to be defeated in battle and he is going to be defeated by forces representing the opposite ideology. Madara represents the Uchiha curse of hatred, and the evil desire for world domination. He will be opposed and ultimately defeated by people representing the will of fire, and the freedom and protection of mankind. In short, Madara will be defeated by Naruto and Naruto's allies. This is the thematic thrust of the entire manga, at least since part 2: That true strength comes from protecting people you care about, and Naruto is the most selfless protector on the battlefield. Madara has nobody to protect. Naruto has everybody to protect. The real validation of the philosophy of the entire manga is that Naruto's way produces real power, while Madara's way does not. Tobi is a similar person, dominated by the curse of hatred and using people as pawns and tools (and sources of body parts). He will ultimately be defeated by the forces of the Will of Fire also.

Q: Why is Madara fighting at all?
Knowing that he could have released himself at any point, Madara chose to fight the kages. This seems illogical because it distracts from his real goal, the Moon's Eye Plan. Given that Madara has unlimited chakra as an Edo and that he is capable of performing Tsukuyomi, why doesn't he just forget the Bijuu and cast infinite Tsukuyomi himself?

A:
There is no real good answer. Basically, he wanted to test the kages' power and plot no jutsu

False. As I mentioned in response to your first question, there's ZERO EVIDENCE that Madara was able to release himself at any time. Kabuto was controlling his movements, to a degree, even if he did leave Madara with some level of autonomy. Also, there's a very real chance that releasing himself means Madara loses some of the benefits of invincibility and unlimited chakra, and he wouldn't have wanted to be released from that yet.

Why does Madara fight the Kage? There are several good reasons. First, he started the fight because Kabuto told him to. Kabuto was in control, and he tells the zombies what to do. Some of the zombies (Deidara, Kakuzu, Gin/Kin brothers) are willing to go along with this path. Some (Dan, Asuma, Chiyo, Hizashi, Haku) were unwilling pawns and were FORCED to do what Kabuto wanted anyway. Sasori was able to break out of the binding because he had a weaker binding and his soul found peace. Madara hasn't had that kind of transformation yet.

Second, Madara did indeed want to test his new abilities, especially since his body has been "enhanced" beyond what he remembered it to be. Fighting the kage is seen as being a worthy challenge to test himself with. This mirrors very strongly the way Sasuke wanted challenges to test his new abilities at each step. That's why Sasuke was so willing to fight Killer Bee and later why he was so willing to fight all the kage. It's why he's been slaughtering Zetsu clones. It's even why Sasuke was willing to kill Karin: To test himself and increase his own strength at the expense of others.

Third, the Moon's Eye Plan and the infinite tsukuyomi requires the capture of all nine bijuu and the assembly of the 10-tails. Madara and Tobi do not have these. We know that sealing a Bijuu into the Gedo Mazo is a technique that takes up to three days, so they are going to need some time of peace to do it, which means they also need to defeat most of the allied shinobi forces to give themselves enough time.

Fourth, Madara was summoned to the battlefield by Kabuto. He doesn't know who Kabuto is or where Kabuto is located. He either doesn't know Tobi or hasn't acknowledged him. He doesn't know where Tobi is. Or where Naruto and Killer Bee are. What he does know is that the kage are right in front of them, and defeating them will be a major help in the war effort, both in decreasing the total strength of the allied army and in demoralizing the remaining troops. It's good strategy to kill the leaders when you have the chance, and Madara knows this.

Conclusion: Madara's ongoing presence serves only to confuse the plot line and entertain fanboys. Unless there's a really good flashback sequence, it seems all for naught.

False, for all the reasons I mentioned above. Plus, it creates a counter-point for Tobi, since we know that both Madara and Tobi cannot use the Infinite Tsukuyomi together, and we're not even certain that Tobi is planning to follow this course or if he lied about that too (to "prove" that he was Madara, when he clearly isn't). We now have three enemies (Tobi, Madara and Sasuke) with possibly different motivations. This leads to a very possible and very interesting situation where the allies are defeated, but the enemies ultimately defeat each other by pursuing different goals. This in turn may lead to something like Sasuke's redemption and the cleansing of the Uchiha name.

 

[cohaco]

+rep

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The only question i want to ask, why'd Madara as of now, would want to to be revived? If he is -alive-, wouldn't he lose his unlimited chakra etc?

DON'T SAY NO TO PANDA !
anyway great thread bro

 

[mishka]

i like this! i always look forward to ur comments and thread. u always make sense! and thanks for simplifying it atleast for me. ++ rep!