MS Madara vs Kisame

[DrProof]

no pleb I just thought I needed to say something to hopeful Kakuzu "fans" U_U

Niiiiiiggggaaaa.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Niiiiiiggggaaaa.

proof, talk to me boy, feels like you hate me now

 

[Beans2]

For the aforementioned reasons: any event resting upon reactions or speed in general, such as, the activation of jutsu, Madara wins due to the Mangekyō Sharingan capacity to strengthen the core abilities of the Sharingan. The Mangekyō Sharingan perceptive abilities enables it user to preemptively strike an opponent if the user has the ability or abilities to do so. [

You must be registered for see links

]​

[Edit] — If anyone has walked away with the quoted belief, then they have severely misunderstood me.​

​

[continue edit] — I am not saying "Madara will dodge all of Kisame's large AOE because he has superior reaction and speed." I am saying that "Madara should be able to prepare or react accordingly to Kisame's attacks given Madara's own abilities, the capacities of the Mangekyō Sharingan, Madara's mastery of the Mangekyō Sharingan, and the effects the capacities of the Mangekyō Sharingan have on Madara's abilities, particularly his reflexive ability."​

How, specifically, does Madara preemptively strike him before Kisame unleashes WD?

 

[DrProof]

How, specifically, does Madara preemptively strike him before Kisame unleashes WD?

He doesn't. lmao.

 

[ToshiZO]

How, specifically, does Madara preemptively strike him before Kisame unleashes WD?

Kisame is under genjutsu for a moment, thats all Madara needs to engages Kisame in CQC or even makes his head go flying.

 

[Varrah]

How, specifically, does Madara preemptively strike him before Kisame unleashes WD?

1. Madara would see the kneading of charka in the Inner Coils as Kisame is going through the motions to make jutsu;
   
   
2. Madara would see the muscle movements Kisame needs for jutsu as Kisame is motioning for said jutsu or move in general;
   
   
3. Madara would memorize or copy the muscle movements Kisame needs for jutsu and use for later if needed;
   
   
4. Madara can use what he has memorize or copied to intercept, track, or predict Kisame's next move, which all can be used for future use;
   
   
5. The Mangekyō Sharingan enhances these abilities and the user's reactions, which in turn increases the user's ability to response and apply chakra to jutsu through making them much more perceptive.

​

How, specifically, does Madara preemptively strike him before Kisame unleashes WD?

Through memorizing the kneading of chakra in the Inner Coils and the movements necessary for Water Dome and either intercepting the attack as Kisame is going through the motions or matching with a jutsu of equal value. The goal if I were debating this particular match-up wouldn't be for Madara to outright destroy the attack like Proof is probably thinking, but rather to memorize the necessary actions for Kisame's moveset in general in plan a strategy or strategies after Madara has some inkling of them. The cheating thing about any with Uchiha with a matured Sharingan is that upon seeing the the attributes necessary for a move they have an immediate understanding of said move so to speak. So, Madara doesn't need to wait for the full Water Dome to actually startup, he only needs to see the kneading of chakra to have an idea of the jutsu that's going to happen, seeing the movements of the jutsu will only solidifies Madara's understanding of jutsu. Couple this with Madara's innate or base abilities, his Sharingan improving his base abilities through increasing his reactions and thereby his speed to use chakra based techniques, and his Mangekyō Sharingan which improves upon the core abilities of the Sharingan, making his reflexive abilities stronger.

Two quotes, feel free to offer any other insights you have, Beans, Proof, Apex; Toshi. ​

 

[Apêx1]

IC Kakashi never dodges any of Kakuzu's techniques via Hiding like a Mole.

 

[Beans2]

1. Madara would see the kneading of charka in the Inner Coils as Kisame is going through the motions to make jutsu;
   
   
2. Madara would see the muscle movements Kisame needs for jutsu as Kisame is motioning for said jutsu or move in general;
   
   
3. Madara would memorize or copy the muscle movements Kisame needs for jutsu and use for later if needed;
   
   
4. Madara can use what he has memorize or copied to intercept, track, or predict Kisame's next move, which all can be used for future use;
   
   
5. The Mangekyō Sharingan enhances these abilities and the user's reactions, which in turn increases the user's ability to response and apply chakra to jutsu through making them much more perceptive.

​

Through memorizing the kneading of chakra in the Inner Coils and the movements necessary for Water Dome and either intercepting the attack as Kisame is going through the motions or matching with a jutsu of equal value. The goal if I were debating this particular match-up wouldn't be for Madara to outright destroy the attack like Proof is probably thinking, but rather to memorize the necessary actions for Kisame's moveset in general in plan a strategy or strategies after Madara has some inkling of them. The cheating thing about any with Uchiha with a matured Sharingan is that upon seeing the the attributes necessary for a move they have an immediate understanding of said move so to speak. So, Madara doesn't need to wait for the full Water Dome to actually startup, he only needs to see the kneading of chakra to have an idea of the jutsu that's going to happen, seeing the movements of the jutsu will only solidifies Madara's understanding of jutsu. Couple this with Madara's innate or base abilities, his Sharingan improving his base abilities through increasing his reactions and thereby his speed to use chakra based techniques, and his Mangekyō Sharingan which improves upon the core abilities of the Sharingan, making his reflexive abilities stronger.

Two quotes, feel free to offer any other insights you have, Beans, Proof, Apex; Toshi. ​

How does this correlate to Madara winning the battle? Being able to predict attacks does not mean he can counter them.

 

[Ambivalence]

He can't use legged Susano'o but he can use V4? Doubt it'll be the same size and as powerful as EMS Madara's, but it should still be a good deal above Itachi and Sasuke's.

Giving this match to Madara.

 

[Draegod]

1. Madara would see the kneading of charka in the Inner Coils as Kisame is going through the motions to make jutsu;
   
   
2. Madara would see the muscle movements Kisame needs for jutsu as Kisame is motioning for said jutsu or move in general;
   
   
3. Madara would memorize or copy the muscle movements Kisame needs for jutsu and use for later if needed;
   
   
4. Madara can use what he has memorize or copied to intercept, track, or predict Kisame's next move, which all can be used for future use;
   
   
5. The Mangekyō Sharingan enhances these abilities and the user's reactions, which in turn increases the user's ability to response and apply chakra to jutsu through making them much more perceptive.

​

Through memorizing the kneading of chakra in the Inner Coils and the movements necessary for Water Dome and either intercepting the attack as Kisame is going through the motions or matching with a jutsu of equal value. The goal if I were debating this particular match-up wouldn't be for Madara to outright destroy the attack like Proof is probably thinking, but rather to memorize the necessary actions for Kisame's moveset in general in plan a strategy or strategies after Madara has some inkling of them. The cheating thing about any with Uchiha with a matured Sharingan is that upon seeing the the attributes necessary for a move they have an immediate understanding of said move so to speak. So, Madara doesn't need to wait for the full Water Dome to actually startup, he only needs to see the kneading of chakra to have an idea of the jutsu that's going to happen, seeing the movements of the jutsu will only solidifies Madara's understanding of jutsu. Couple this with Madara's innate or base abilities, his Sharingan improving his base abilities through increasing his reactions and thereby his speed to use chakra based techniques, and his Mangekyō Sharingan which improves upon the core abilities of the Sharingan, making his reflexive abilities stronger.

Two quotes, feel free to offer any other insights you have, Beans, Proof, Apex; Toshi. ​

Dont care who wins, But where is the proof Madara can see chakra build up with the Sharingan when Obito needed to become a sensor to see Sasuke build Chakra.

OT: Couldn't madara Counter with Firestyle before kisame even unleashes the Jutsu? EX: Madara see's handsigns before they are done then proceeds mega fire jutsu at Kisame forcing him to get smoked or grab Sama and block. (And this is me assuming Madara Disarmed Kisame early bout no diff with surperior CQC).
Or..
He gets close; Uses The fan to absorb the water passage area around his mouth (about 1 feet radius) and counter blast with Massive Wind blast. And with the sharingan plus his speed and brains it is possible.

 

[Lord Tywin]

IC Kakashi never dodges any of Kakuzu's techniques via Hiding like a Mole.

lmao with this again

 

[Apêx1]

lmao with this again

It's a fact though, he didn't do it in the situation where people claim he will, so you're making your own OC Kakashi. But that's not how it works, because that would be your changing his fighting style, and his fighting style correlates to his intelligence. Maybe he'll dodge one or two attacks with it, but to say he'll dodge them all with it is you creating your own Kakashi.

 

[Lord Tywin]

It's a fact though, he didn't do it in the situation where people claim he will, so you're making your own OC Kakashi. But that's not how it works, because that would be your changing his fighting style, and his fighting style correlates to his intelligence. Maybe he'll dodge one or two attacks with it, but to say he'll dodge them all with it is you creating your own Kakashi.

When Kakashi sees no other way, he'd use it.

 

[Apêx1]

When Kakashi sees no other way, he'd use it.

Is that why he tried to dodge the Katon instead of go under it, consequentially getting shat on by Kakuzu again.

 

[Zexion~]

Kakuzu's fuuton rips into the ground with a vast AoE......, Kakuzu's katon rides it and the argument can be made if Kakashi doesn't close the hole it would enter with him.


Raiton rips through the ground putting Kakashi on the defensive under there anyways, meanwhile Kakuzu's ready to pounce when he gets out.


Hiding like a mole would be a terrible strategy.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Is that why he tried to dodge the Katon instead of go under it, consequentially getting shat on by Kakuzu again.

Look at the situation though. He had to protect fodder Ino and choji. Going underground would put them at risk.

@Zexion, is that why his fuuton couldn't kill Kakashi even though it hit him? Kakashi always closes his hole though. Once underground Kakuzu has no idea where Kakashi would come out from. But let's not go any further. I had enough of this with Apex in that other thread

 

[Apêx1]

Look at the situation though. He had to protect fodder Ino and choji. Going underground would put them at risk.

@Zexion, is that why his fuuton couldn't kill Kakashi even though it hit him? Kakashi always closes his hole though. Once underground Kakuzu has no idea where Kakashi would come out from. But let's not go any further. I had enough of this with Apex in that other thread

Kakashi jumped to dodge Zukkoku instead of assisting the fodders

You must be registered for see links

Kakashi jumped when nobody was around him in order to attempt to counter the Katon+Futon, no fodders nearby

You must be registered for see links

It's a fact that Kakashi does NOT use hiding like a mole to dodge these types of attacks.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Kakashi jumped to dodge Zukkoku instead of assisting the fodders

You must be registered for see links

Kakashi jumped when nobody was around him in order to attempt to counter the Katon+Futon, no fodders nearby

You must be registered for see links

It's a fact that Kakashi does NOT use hiding like a mole to dodge these types of attacks.

For that first scan, go a few pages back and you'll see Ino and Choji behind Kakashi.
For that second one, kakashi was surrounded. In a one on one it won't happen

 

[Apêx1]

For that first scan, go a few pages back and you'll see Ino and Choji behind Kakashi.
For that second one, kakashi was surrounded. In a one on one it won't happen

I don't get what you mean? They dodged it just fine by themselves though? He wasn't even with them, he jumped away.

It was a one on one and he did get surrounded. If anything, with help it should be much easier NOT to get surrounded. Not to mention, he wasn't really surrounded after the Katon+Futon mask merged.

 

[Lord Tywin]

I don't get what you mean? They dodged it just fine by themselves though? He wasn't even with them, he jumped away.

It was a one on one and he did get surrounded. If anything, with help it should be much easier NOT to get surrounded. Not to mention, he wasn't really surrounded after the Katon+Futon mask merged.

Man that's the presence of Kakashi. Him being there helped Ino and Choji to not be Kakuzu's main focus. If Kakashi had gone underground, Kakuzu would have immediately followed up with an attack to get the fodder trio out of the fight.