MS Kakashi vs. MS Itachi

[Kamui Sama]

I don't mean any offense, but all you've been saying thus far was in your defense of Kakashi. Since you're the thread maker, perhaps you should provide ample evidence to support both of the characters instead of one.

"Both are pretty similar fighters in base forms. Itachi has the advantage in Genjutsu, while Kakashi has the advantage in a more versatile and more lethal Ninjutsu arsenal. Main issue is that Itachi's advantage in basic Genjutsu won't be prevalent against another Mangekyo user, who has shown himself to be proficient enough to hold off the likes of Obito. Both have similar speed, Taijutsu skill (albeit first gate and Raikiri make Kakashi more dangerous in CQC), weapons ability, intelligence, and in-battle tactical prowess.

When it comes down to Mangekyo, both are equally lethal. Kakashi can teleport himself (pseudo-Hiraishin), teleport enemy attacks (i.e defensive) and can teleport the target at long range (offensive), while Itachi has Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi (can potentially be resisted by Kakashi this far up in the manga), and Susano'o. It probably will come down to who is willing to execute their OHKO jutsu first or who took the precaution to set up a Kage Bunshin in case the opponent fires off their OHKO jutsu.

A close match."

Black wolf pretty much stated how I think the match will go down. I already said I give Kakashi has the edge in my OP. I still think it will be quite close

Btw how do I quote comments without directly replying to them

 

[Black Wolf]

Not because the Rinnegan is superior to it - because it is literally an evolved version of the same eye. It is like saying a third tomoe cannot provide the precognitive abilities of a two tomoe, or that a Mangekyo provides none of the precognition that the two tomoe does.

The only times Kakashi has taken time preparing Kamui was when he was either (A) exhausted or (B) inexperienced, neither of which is the case in this thread. He prepared chakra for Kamui when he was still inexperienced with it against Deidara, and he prepared Kamui prior to warping Gedo Mazo's head due to exhaustion (he has used two Kage Bunshin, numerous Raikiri variants).

Every single other time Kamui was used, there was no preparation. How could he have prepared against the Mazo when it appeared out of thin air and was then teleported immediately to Madara's location? There was literally no time for Kakashi to prepare any chakra for it.

Why are you using Amaterasu's prep time as a base-line for Kamui's? Amaterasu is slower than Kamui and has consistently shown more build-up. The user's eye always has enough time to bleed a line down their face prior to the technique actually firing. Kamui does not do that.

 

[LustyLover]

"Both are pretty similar fighters in base forms. Itachi has the advantage in Genjutsu, while Kakashi has the advantage in a more versatile and more lethal Ninjutsu arsenal. Main issue is that Itachi's advantage in basic Genjutsu won't be prevalent against another Mangekyo user, who has shown himself to be proficient enough to hold off the likes of Obito. Both have similar speed, Taijutsu skill (albeit first gate and Raikiri make Kakashi more dangerous in CQC), weapons ability, intelligence, and in-battle tactical prowess.

When it comes down to Mangekyo, both are equally lethal. Kakashi can teleport himself (pseudo-Hiraishin), teleport enemy attacks (i.e defensive) and can teleport the target at long range (offensive), while Itachi has Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi (can potentially be resisted by Kakashi this far up in the manga), and Susano'o. It probably will come down to who is willing to execute their OHKO jutsu first or who took the precaution to set up a Kage Bunshin in case the opponent fires off their OHKO jutsu.

A close match."

Black wolf pretty much stated how I think the mach will go down. I already said I give Kakashi has the edge in my OP. I still think it will be quite close

Btw how do I quote comments without directly replying to them

Just click reply with quote and copy their statement, I think.

 

[LustyLover]

Not because the Rinnegan is superior to it - because it is literally an evolved version of the same eye. It is like saying a third tomoe cannot provide the precognitive abilities of a two tomoe, or that a Mangekyo provides none of the precognition that the two tomoe does.

The only times Kakashi has taken time preparing Kamui was when he was either (A) exhausted or (B) inexperienced, neither of which is the case in this thread. He prepared chakra for Kamui when he was still inexperienced with it against Deidara, and he prepared Kamui prior to warping Gedo Mazo's head due to exhaustion (he has used two Kage Bunshin, numerous Raikiri variants).

Every single other time Kamui was used, there was no preparation. How could he have prepared against the Mazo when it appeared out of thin air and was then teleported immediately to Madara's location? There was literally no time for Kakashi to prepare any chakra for it.

Why are you using Amaterasu's prep time as a base-line for Kamui's? Amaterasu is slower than Kamui and has consistently shown more build-up. The user's eye always has enough time to bleed a line down their face prior to the technique actually firing. Kamui does not do that.

A 3T Sharingan does not provide the precognitive abilities of a 2 tomoe because a 2 tomoe does not, in fact, possess any precognitive abilities. Show me proof that the Rinnegan has precognitive abilities if you want to prove your statement oh-so-badly.

- Any jutsu requires chakra build up. Kamui is not an exception.

- There has always been preparation. Even in the scan you showed me he had to enlargen his eye and build up chakra in order to use it.

- Ama's predictability isn't in the blood. Rather, it's in the build-up of the chakra within the dojutsu's technique which is why Nagato was able to sense it. With the Sharingan's ability to catch the build-up, he's not getting caught off guard especially since HE HAS FULL INTEL OF IT.

 

[LustyLover]

@BlackWolf

Starting distance is 15. I didn't even notice that. Kakashi's getting one-shotted. Tell me how he counters Ama or Genjutsu in a 15m starting distance. I'd like to hear this.

 

[Black Wolf]

Of course 2-tomoe provides precognition. Why else did Kakashi obtaining Obito's 2-tomoe perfect his Chidori? Why else was Sasuke seeing through

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(and

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)? Sasuke vs. Lee, Sasuke

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.

You constantly regurgitating "Kamui requires build-up" doesn't make it the case. Of course his eye got bigger; Kamui is a Dojutsu, executed and aimed from the eye. The eye must widen for the technique to be used. That is the execution of the technique you are seeing, not the chakra build-up.

Nagato wasn't looking at Itachi's face; Itachi was facing the opposite direction, thus why Nagato sensed it rather than saw it. Itachi's back was literally towards Nagato.

Itachi's eye bled for

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to Amaterasu

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. It was interrupted due to Shisui's eye, but the build-up was still necessary.

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He always

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prior to using it. MS Sasuke's eye

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prior to Amaterasu's release.

With Amaterasu, there is always a massive visual cue.

Starting distance is 15. I didn't even notice that. Kakashi's getting one-shotted. Tell me how he counters Ama or Genjutsu in a 15m starting distance. I'd like to hear this.

Nothing in Itachi's arsenal, Mangekyo techniques included, are faster than Kamui. If it comes down to who has the faster technique, Kamui will win every single time.

If you want this to be Amaterasu vs Kamui, go ahead and make a thread with a poll.

 

[LustyLover]

Of course 2-tomoe provides precognition. Why else did Kakashi obtaining Obito's 2-tomoe perfect his Chidori? Why else was Sasuke seeing through

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(and

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)? Sasuke vs. Lee, Sasuke

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.

You constantly regurgitating "Kamui requires build-up" doesn't make it the case. Of course his eye got bigger; Kamui is a Dojutsu, executed and aimed from the eye. The eye must widen for the technique to be used. That is the execution of the technique you are seeing, not the chakra build-up.

Nagato wasn't looking at Itachi's face; Itachi was facing the opposite direction, thus why Nagato sensed it rather than saw it. Itachi's back was literally towards Nagato.

Itachi's eye bled for

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to Amaterasu

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. It was interrupted due to Shisui's eye, but the build-up was still necessary.

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He always

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prior to using it. MS Sasuke's eye

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prior to Amaterasu's release.



Nothing in Itachi's arsenal, Mangekyo techniques included, are faster than Kamui. If it comes down to who has the faster technique, Kamui will win every single time.

I only need to reply to bold, because nothing else matters at this point. If we continue we'll go on for days.

Kakashi, at 15 meters, has no counter to Genjutsu. Kakashi won't start out with Kamui because he simply never has against Itachi in the past and in this scenario there is nothing different from then and now, but Itachi always starts out with Genjutsu. Kakashi looks down to avoid Genjutsu, and Amaterasu one-shots. That's pretty much the end of discussion to be honest. Change the starting distance and only then will we have a real debate, unless you have proof that Kakashi can avoid Amaterasu at 15 meters.

 

[Black Wolf]

Itachi's base Genjutsu is not going to overwhelm Kakashi's, which was matching Obito's Genjutsu (who happens to have Senjutsu cells powering him), and Obito was keeping a perfect Jinchuuriki under his control for years. Nothing short of Tsukuyomi will work, and Kamui is faster than Tsukuyomi. Furthermore, Sasuke's ability to resist Tsukuyomi with 3T doesn't make it completely implausible for Kakashi to be able to resist it with his Mangekyo.

Kakashi never used it against Itachi in the past because he didn't have it in Part I, and his proficiency with it in the earlier parts of Part II was not enough for him to use it right off the bat. His aim and stamina made it a last resort. With his current ability to spam it and use it far more liberally, he no longer has the same conservative mindset.

 

[LustyLover]

Itachi's base Genjutsu is not going to overwhelm Kakashi's, which was matching Obito's Genjutsu (who happens to have Senjutsu cells powering him), and Obito was keeping a perfect Jinchuuriki under his control for years. Nothing short of Tsukuyomi will work, and Kamui is faster than Tsukuyomi. Furthermore, Sasuke's ability to resist Tsukuyomi with 3T doesn't make it completely implausible for Kakashi to be able to resist it with his Mangekyo.

Kakashi never used it against Itachi in the past because he didn't have it in Part I, and his proficiency with it in the earlier parts of Part II was not enough for him to use it right off the bat. His aim and stamina made it a last resort. With his current ability to spam it and use it far more liberally, he no longer has the same conservative mindset.

Itachi's Genjutsu > Obito's by far...I thought this was clearly obvious. Kakashi wouldn't be looking away from Itachi and look directly at Obito if he didn't agree. Genjutsu can still affect Kakashi and he wouldn't of avoided Itachi's eyes if that wasn't the case.

If that's what you believe, great, but how is he avoiding Ama at 15m? Only a forewarned, V2 mode Ay was able to dodge it, and even then he barely was able to. Are you suggesting Kakashi is as fast as V2 Ay?

 

[Black Wolf]

Itachi's Genjutsu is better than Obito's "by far" . . . based on what? Obito has Senjutsu cells powering his body, and has the feat of making a perfect Jinchuuriki his puppet for years. I can agree that Tsukuyomi is probably better than Obito's Genjutsu, but that doesn't make it impossible for Kakashi to resist it. Hebi Sasuke was undoubtedly inferior to Itachi, yet resistance was still possible.

Kakashi looked away from Itachi back in chapter 260. How that has any bearing on the current Kakashi of literally 420 chapters later is a mystery to me.

He doesn't have to avoid Amaterasu. Itachi's head will be in the Kamui dimension before Amaterasu is ever executed.

 

[Conspirator.]

Kakashi wins via kamui I think. On a side note, since when does the rinnegan have precognition?

 

[Braiyan]

@BlackWolf

Starting distance is 15. I didn't even notice that. Kakashi's getting one-shotted. Tell me how he counters Ama or Genjutsu in a 15m starting distance. I'd like to hear this.

By hitting him with Kamui before Itachi can use either option against him. Kamui requires far less buildup than Amaterasu or Genjutsu [

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][

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][

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][

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], that's not really debateable at this point.

 

[LustyLover]

Itachi's Genjutsu is better than Obito's "by far" . . . based on what? Obito has Senjutsu cells powering his body, and has the feat of making a perfect Jinchuuriki his puppet for years. Tsukuyomi is probably better than Obito's Genjutsu, but that doesn't make it impossible for Kakashi to resist it. Hebi Sasuke was undoubtedly inferior to Itachi, yet resistance was still possible.

Kakashi looked away from Itachi back in chapter 260. How that has any bearing on the Kakashi of 420 chapters later is a mystery to me.

He doesn't have to avoid Amaterasu. Itachi's head will be in the Kamui dimension before Amaterasu is ever used.

We have no proof that the Genjutsu Obito used on the Jinchuuriki was the one used on Kakashi.

Because there's no difference from him wanting to avoid Genjutsu then and him wanting to avoid Genjutsu now.

Nope it won't. He's in character.

 

[LustyLover]

By hitting him with Kamui before Itachi can use either option against him. Kamui requires far less buildup than Amaterasu or Genjutsu [

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][

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][

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][

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], that's not really debateable at this point.

What's not debateable is the fact that Kakashi has NEVER started out with Kamui and has never even thought about starting out with it against Itachi, not even once. Again, that fact remains.

 

[abouda123]

Kakashi wins it mid def

 

[LustyLover]

location: war plains
starting distance: 15m
intel:full
mindset: in character
restrictions: KA (some people seem to think Itachi can use it in battle)

What is your opinion on this matchup. I think both characters are on a very similar level (when Kakashi still has his sharingan ). Kakashi has much improved stamina in the war-arc and has shown to be able to use his MS much more throughout the war arc on his own

And then there is Itachi, we all know how skilled he has always been.

I think it would be a very close fight but I'm leaning to MS kakashi high-very high diff because of Kakashi's Kamui feats and lethality. Whats your opinion on this match up?

Starting distance = Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi one-shots since Kakashi has never used Kamui in the beginning and, even if he did, Itachi can avoid it since he has full knowledge of the jutsu. Itachi has also shown proficient enough shunshin feats to easily cross the distance and force him to look in his eyes.

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intel:full Full knowledge on Kamui means that at 15m he won't be able to land a hit on Itachi with him feinting with clones appearing so fast that his Sharingan wasn't even able to predict it as well as him spamming hordes and hordes of crows to attack him AND he'll have to look down, meaning he won't be able to even see what's being thrown at him.

mindset: in character IC Kakashi never has used Kamui in the start of a fight and never used it on Itachi in the past. That won't change.

 

[Legendary Toad Sage]

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[Black Wolf]

We have no proof that the Genjutsu Obito used on the Jinchuuriki was the one used on Kakashi.

They were in a battle to the death, and Obito was trying to convert Kakashi to the "dark-side" on numerous occasions. He had no reason to hold back.

Because there's no difference from him wanting to avoid Genjutsu then and him wanting to avoid Genjutsu now.

By this excellent logic, Kakashi can single-handedly defeat Sasuke, Naruto, and Sakura without even using his Sharingan because he did so back in chapter 2.

Nope it won't. He's in character.

What you need to understand is that being IC isn't equivalent to being intentionally stupid.

Kakashi has full knowledge here and has both the skill and the stamina to liberally utilize Kamui. There is no reason for him not to use it. Every single time he has refrained from using it in the past is due to chakra issues and lack of control over the jutsu, neither of which are a problem for current Kakashi.

 

[LustyLover]

They were in a battle to the death, and Obito was trying to convert Kakashi to the "dark-side" on numerous occasions. He had no reason to hold back.



By this excellent logic, Kakashi can single-handedly defeat Sasuke, Naruto, and Sakura without even using his Sharingan because he did so back in chapter 2.



What you need to understand is that being IC isn't equivalent to being intentionally stupid.

Kakashi has full knowledge here and has both the skill and the stamina to liberally utilize Kamui. There is no reason for him not to use it. Every single time he has refrained from using it in the past is due to chakra issues and lack of control over the jutsu, neither of which are a problem for current Kakashi.

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This scan of Itachi using Ama is over 15 meters.

Starting distance is 15 meters.

V2 Ay was able to dodge it with prep only.

Kakashi does not possess Ay's speed.

Kakashi will not and has never started out with Kamui.

Do the math.

Kakashi wasn't intentionally stupid in either of his fights with Itachi. However, in both fights he never used Kamui immediately because, as you put it, it's a "waste of chakra and stamina." If that's the case, Kakashi's not going to use it here either, because he still suffers from a large amount of chakra and stamina loss.

Itachi has been shown to utilize Ama immediately. Kakashi has not. There is no difference between the circumstances here and now. Kakashi isn't suddenly going to have a change of heart and decide to use Kamui right off the bat. Him using Kamui still puts an immense strain on his body and he will still be reluctant to use it right away like he always has.

 

[Black Wolf]

Strawman. Where did I deny Amaterasu not being usable over 15 meters?

Another strawman. Where did I ever say Kakashi has V2 A speed? Where did I ever say he will physically dodge Amaterasu?

When has Itachi used Amaterasu immediately? He didn't use it against Kakashi in Part I. He didn't even use it against Jiraiya in Part I until he had to flee from the Frog Stomach. He didn't use it immediately against Hebi Sasuke, only using it after a lengthy exchange. He didn't even use it immediately as an Edo Tensei with unlimited chakra (he fought with Killer Bee and Naruto in CQC, used a Katon, standard Genjutsu, threw some shuriken), and even if he did use it instantly as an Edo (which he didn't), it would be due to the fact he didn't have to worry about chakra depletion.

Kakashi used Kamui immediately against Deidara. He immediately prepared his Mangekyo upon entering the aftermath of the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight. He used it immediately against Obito. He used it immediately against the Juubi. He used it immediately upon the appearance of Jinchuuriki Madara.

What you continuously fail to take into account:

(1) Kakashi has full knowledge here. This changes a fighter's entire approach to battle.
(2) Kakashi can actually aim Kamui with high accuracy now. He isn't going to miss like in Deidara's battle.
(3) Kakashi can spam Kamui more than Itachi can use his Mangekyo techniques, if speaking strictly feat-wise. He does not need to be as conservative with it as he was back when using one Kamui was a big deal to his chakra pool.

With all three points above, of course Kakashi will "suddenly have a change of heart."

Itachi's Mangekyo techniques strain him just as much as Kamui strains Kakashi, if not moreso.