Most Overrated Versions Of Naruto and Sasuke?

[Nick01]

This same Zetsu never even seen MS Sasuke in combat. Sasuke never used Enron nor Susano'o at that point either.

Wasn't talking about MS Sasuke. That point was towards 3 Tomoe Sasuke and Zetsu said it right.

Plus despite watching the battle and seeing Naruto get help, Zetsu lied and Naruto defeated Pain alone. This implies he was trolling Sasuke to get a reaction.

Maybe, but what he said in regards to Naruto being stronger than 3 Tomoe Sasuke still holds true.

Nonetheless, as i pointed out already, when Naruto heard what happened at the Summit then faced Sasuke himself he stated that he needs the Kyuubi-s chakra to fight him.

Naruto knew Sasuke would achieve greater strength and vice versa, which is why Naruto accepted his fate as a Jinchuriki and Sasuke had Obito transplant Itachi's eyes to gain EMS.

His clone usage is very limited when undergoing Sage Mode. The chances of him being able to enter SM is slim. At Orochimaru's hideout Sasuke immediately shut Naruto down when he was going Kyuubi. So him trying to gather Nature energy will be very suspicious.

At Orochimaru's hideout Naruto wasn't at 100% nor was his heart in it, so that isn't a very good example. He can definitely create a diversion via clones while one of them gathers NE and the rest is history.

The facts are still present. RS needs to be thrown from a distance so the user isn't caught up in his own attack. Sasuke can easily dodge it. His chakra sight would allow him to notice the chakra consumption of RS and take advantage. RS is Naruto's only long range technique so all he would have left is close combat. Any close combat is halted with Chidori Stream so Frog Kata is fodder. Logically, Hebi Sasuke wins in most scenarios, if not all.

Thing is, RS isn't even needed against Hebi Sasuke. Chidori Stream isn't doing a thing, because Naruto will sense and dodge accordingly. Also :lol @ calling Frog Kata fodder, when it's basically one of the most broken CQC styles there is. The second Sasuke engages in CQC it's over, Naruto doesn't even need to connect, to hit him. Can Sasuke use Chidori Stream when Naruto gets really close? Sure but one of two things will happen, Naruto senses it and evades or Naruto gets hit by Chidori Stream and punches Sasuke via contact or no contact. If it's the latter, the damage Sasuke takes will be far greater than what Naruto receives.
Hebi Sasuke most definitely takes the L. His chances are slim against SM Naruto.

Not pre-war.

At that point in my post, I'm referring to Overall.

SM is more useful yes, but superior in power at that stage in the series? No. And like i said, at most he would need to use it to block RS if he for some reason doesn't evade even though he's quick enough in base alone, plus has the Sharingan's precognition.

Which is why I said Overall SM is superior to MS. I wasn't referring to a certain stage in the series(like Pain Arc).

 

[InfiniteMugen]

The adult versions of both, as neither has shown anything past their vote2 selves yet.

How do you figure ems sauce is overrated? Dude only had ems for like 2 days

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Wasn't talking about MS Sasuke. That point was towards 3 Tomoe Sasuke and Zetsu said it right.

I agreed with SM being stronger, but that doesn't automatically mean he would win.

Maybe, but what he said in regards to Naruto being stronger than 3 Tomoe Sasuke still holds true.

Sure, i'm not saying he's not overall but do you think an SM FRS is stronger than Kirin?

Naruto knew Sasuke would achieve greater strength and vice versa, which is why Naruto accepted his fate as a Jinchuriki and Sasuke had Obito transplant Itachi's eyes to gain EMS.

In just a few days? After their meeting he immediately went to gain control of the Kyuubi's power. Then after training to control it's power, and completing his "mission", he tried heading back to Konoha expecting Sasuke to be there soon. If anything he expected Sasuke to just rest a few days, but i think I will agree with you on this considering Tobi likely told him about it when he told them the truth about Itachi.

At Orochimaru's hideout Naruto wasn't at 100% nor was his heart in it, so that isn't a very good example.

That's pretty irrelevant given that both Orochimaru and Naruto admitted that Sasuke was far ahead at the time. Then Naruto immediately went back to training to catch up.

He can definitely create a diversion via clones while one of them gathers NE and the rest is history.

Need i remind you of how Sasuke spammed a massive amount of Shuriken against Itachi? Has Chidori Senbon? & how in Part One a single Fire Ball took out dozens of clones? Naruto knows entering SM on the battlefield is difficult. That's why he prepared clones in advanced.

Thing is, RS isn't even needed against Hebi Sasuke. Chidori Stream isn't doing a thing, because Naruto will sense and dodge accordingly.

Yeah, and he'll have to keep dodging, to avoid being zapped anytime he gets close. Thus he can't use Frog Kata.

Also :lol @ calling Frog Kata fodder, when it's basically one of the most broken CQC styles there is.

It is useless if he can't use it.

The second Sasuke engages in CQC it's over, Naruto doesn't even need to connect, to hit him.

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Can Sasuke use Chidori Stream when Naruto gets really close? Sure but one of two things will happen, Naruto senses it and evades or Naruto gets hit by Chidori Stream and punches Sasuke via contact or no contact. If it's the latter, the damage Sasuke takes will be far greater than what Naruto receives.

Nope, once Naruto's zapped he will no longer be able to control his body due to paralysis, much less focus chakra for frog Kata. Plus he needs to be closer for Frog Kata to work than Sasuke does Chidori Stream which is a close-mid range move.

Hebi Sasuke most definitely takes the L. His chances are slim against SM Naruto.

It's the opposite.

Which is why I said Overall SM is superior to MS. I wasn't referring to a certain stage in the series(like Pain Arc).

Overall 3TS is more useful than SM by far. Let's not forget that Kishimoto nerfed him. Kakashi - a non-Uchiha who is negatively effected from using the Sharingan, managed to copy over 1000 techniques. Sasuke could do alot better but he was restricted from ultlizing his copying ability to his full advantage throughout the entire series. Otherwise he would become too strong.

Through his hardwork, talent, & intelligence he was already able to make extraordinary progress in rapid succession within a short amount of time through training. Hence learning/developing his second nature element enough to master the Chidori, on top of acquiring Lee's Level of High Speed Taijutsu without the weights in just a few weeks. Now imagine him perfectly copying a ton of techniques just from seeing it once.

In Part Two Kakashi stated that learning/developing a nature element alone usually takes Shinobi months/years.

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Speaking of - Sasuke mastered both of his elements by the time Naruto even began learning his first.....he created & mastered the ultimate Lightning - Kirin, before Naruto even began learning his wind...which he only ever used for Rasengan/variants.

 

[Nick01]

I agreed with SM being stronger, but that doesn't automatically mean he would win.

lol Go back to your first post. You said SM Naruto is "Inferior to Hebi Sasuke".
Yeah nothing is guaranteed, but the odds are without a doubt in Naruto's favor.

Sure, i'm not saying he's not overall but do you think an SM FRS is stronger than Kirin?

FRS should have the advantage since Wind>Lightning. But I can't say what would happen, since they've never clashed.
Still, Kirin takes tons of prep time and chakra.

In just a few days? After their meeting he immediately went to gain control of the Kyuubi's power. Then after training to control it's power, and completing his "mission", he tried heading back to Konoha expecting Sasuke to be there soon. If anything he expected Sasuke to just rest a few days, but i think I will agree with you on this considering Tobi likely told him about it when he told them the truth about Itachi.

Fair enough.

That's pretty irrelevant given that both Orochimaru and Naruto admitted that Sasuke was far ahead at the time. Then Naruto immediately went back to training to catch up.

I didn't say that he wasn't. But you said it as if Naruto actually attempted to fight and that Sasuke beat him with no difficulty, which isn't what happened.

Need i remind you of how Sasuke spammed a massive amount of Shuriken against Itachi? Has Chidori Senbon? & how in Part One a single Fire Ball took out dozens of clones? Naruto knows entering SM on the battlefield is difficult. That's why he prepared clones in advanced.

Sure, however Naruto can create hundreds of clones and only needs one of them to gather NE. I definitely see Naruto pulling it off. Against Pain, yeah he went prepared with what he had available. It definitely wouldn't have been easy, especially seeing that he was facing multiple bodies.

Yeah, and he'll have to keep dodging, to avoid being zapped anytime he gets close. Thus he can't use Frog Kata.

Which means Sasuke isn't getting a hit in and if he gets close, Frog Kata negs.

It is useless if he can't use it.

If CQC happens, then it's the most useful thing there is.

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Yep thanks for proving my point.

Nope, once Naruto's zapped he will no longer be able to control his body due to paralysis, much less focus chakra for frog Kata. Plus he needs to be closer for Frog Kata to work than Sasuke does Chidori Stream which is a close-mid range move.

Probable. Now what if Naruto uses a wind based Rasengan? Not nearly as taxing as RS, but it would still give him the Elemental advantage against Chidori Stream. He can also create massive ones if need be.

It's the opposite.

No, not really.

Overall 3TS is more useful than SM by far.

That depends on what it's used for. In terms of combat, SM is leagues above and beyond.

Let's not forget that Kishimoto nerfed him. Kakashi - a non-Uchiha who is negatively effected from using the Sharingan, managed to copy over 1000 techniques. Sasuke could do alot better but he was restricted from ultlizing his copying ability to his full advantage throughout the entire series. Otherwise he would become too strong.

He's not the only one who was nerfed.

Through his hardwork, talent, & intelligence he was already able to make extraordinary progress in rapid succession within a short amount of time through training. Hence learning/developing his second nature element enough to master the Chidori, on top of acquiring Lee's Level of High Speed Taijutsu without the weights in just a few weeks. Now imagine him perfectly copying a ton of techniques just from seeing it once.

In Part Two Kakashi stated that learning/developing a nature element alone usually takes Shinobi months/years.

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I will admit, the Sharingan sure is useful.

Speaking of - Sasuke mastered both of his elements by the time Naruto even began learning his first.....he created & mastered the ultimate Lightning - Kirin, before Naruto even began learning his wind...which he only ever used for Rasengan/variants.

The Bold is without a doubt a nerf on Naruto's part and to give his adversaries a chance.

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

lol Go back to your first post. You said SM Naruto is "Inferior to Hebi Sasuke".

Kaguya is stronger than Madara, but he is the better fighter, thus overall he's superior.

FRS should have the advantage since Wind>Lightning. But I can't say what would happen, since they've never clashed. Still, Kirin takes tons of prep time and chakra.

Yeah, I wanted you to determine it by feats. Has FRS destructive power ever looked more impressive than Kirin's?

I didn't say that he wasn't. But you said it as if Naruto actually attempted to fight and that Sasuke beat him with no difficulty, which isn't what happened.

Well even if they fought, he would still lose with no difficulty.

Sure, however Naruto can create hundreds of clones and only needs one of them to gather NE. I definitely see Naruto pulling it off. Against Pain, yeah he went prepared with what he had available. It definitely wouldn't have been easy, especially seeing that he was facing multiple bodies.

That's the point. He can't create hundreds of clones otherwise it will disrupt the one that's gather NE.

Which means Sasuke isn't getting a hit in and if he gets close, Frog Kata negs.

Since neither of them can get close to each other, Sasuke easily wins as Naruto runs out of Senjutsu chakra. SM last 5 minutes max. Less depending on how much chakra he uses for jutsu.

Yep thanks for proving my point.

That disproves your point. You claimed that he didn't need to be that close to use Frog Kata, thus Sasuke couldn't hit him with Chidori Stream. It's the opposite, CS range is wider than FK. Naruto needs to be super close for FK, whereas CS is confirmed to be a close-mid range move. CS repelled Naruto, Sai, Sakura, & Yamato and on it's Databook page it's stated to be effective against a multitude of enemies.

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Furthermore, CS is another underused nerfed technique like Chidori Senbon. It along with Art of the Magnificent Dragon Flame

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and Kirin, were only used by Hebi Sasuke.

Probable. Now what if Naruto uses a wind based Rasengan? Not nearly as taxing as RS, but it would still give him the Elemental advantage against Chidori Stream. He can also create massive ones if need be.

He can activate CS faster than Naruto can a Wind Rasengan, plus just like before, he has the range advantage.

That depends on what it's used for. In terms of combat, SM is leagues above and beyond.

Kishimoto nerfed the copying ability so much that it's hard for you to understand it's effectiveness apparently. Again, Kakashi copied over 1000 techniques and there's many he didn't copy....you can't just claim SM is better without even knowing what these techniques are.

The Bold is without a doubt a nerf on Naruto's part and to give his adversaries a chance.

Not exactly given his character. Naruto wasn't a genuis. Even with his massive Kyuubi amps - enhanced stamina, chakra reserves and advanced healing (proof below), Sasuke always made better progress through training.

During the Chunin exams, after an entire month of training for chakra control to walk on water and perform the summoning technique, Naruto could only summon a toadpole.

I'd say he should have learned Wind in between the timeskip, but in Part One definitely not. And we don't know how long it took Sasuke to master the Dragon Flame, Chidori Variants, & Kirin. So his standing could be the same regardless.


Said proof,

Minato set the seal so that the Kyuubi's chakra leaked out and combined with Naruto's to increase his already large stamina and chakra reserves.

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This/the next page.

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(Naruto's chakra control was only messed up due to the seal Orochimaru placed on him to restrain the Fox, which Jiraiya fixed).

Furthermore he received advanced healing (in/out of battle) This/the next , likewise with the following link.

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(Seconds after he stabbed himself - complete opposite of CM2)

During his Rasengan training, Tsunade - the best medic nin in the world, stated that Naruto would be unconscious for over a day due to training til exhaustion so much. Yet surprisingly, he fully recovered after a nights sleep, and Naruto said this always happens. Shizune contributed this to the Kyuubi. This/the next page.

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Naruto's "base" is actually his + the Kyuubi's chakra.

 

[To Whatever]

Kaguya is stronger than Madara, but he is the better fighter, thus overall he's superior.

Nah. His power came from her.

Edo Madara or revived Madara would get his ass destroyed.

 

[Nick01]

Kaguya is stronger than Madara, but he is the better fighter, thus overall he's superior.

Actually he is the more experienced fighter. But that example can't be applied here. The gap between Kaguya and Madara in terms of being a better fighter isn't the same in regards to Naruto and Sasuke.

Yeah, I wanted you to determine it by feats. Has FRS destructive power ever looked more impressive than Kirin's?

By looks, Kirin would win in the destructive department against RS up to Pain arc. But as I said, RS has the elemental advantage.

Well even if they fought, he would still lose with no difficulty.

Considering Naruto's condition, maybe. It wouldn't be as easy if Naruto was at 100%.

That's the point. He can't create hundreds of clones otherwise it will disrupt the one that's gather NE.

Actually it's only after he has undergone SM that he has a problem in creating more clones.

Since neither of them can get close to each other, Sasuke easily wins as Naruto runs out of Senjutsu chakra. SM last 5 minutes max. Less depending on how much chakra he uses for jutsu.

The good thing about that fight is that Sasuke is his only opponent. He isn't fighting multiple bodies like he did against Pain. He can have a clone or two on standby just in case he runs out. Sasuke isn't trying anything. SM Naruto is on an entirely different league.

That disproves your point. You claimed that he didn't need to be that close to use Frog Kata, thus Sasuke couldn't hit him with Chidori Stream. It's the opposite, CS range is wider than FK. Naruto needs to be super close for FK, whereas CS is confirmed to be a close-mid range move. CS repelled Naruto, Sai, Sakura, & Yamato and on it's Databook page it's stated to be effective against a multitude of enemies.

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Furthermore, CS is another underused nerfed technique like Chidori Senbon. It along with Art of the Magnificent Dragon Flame

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and Kirin, were only used by Hebi Sasuke.

Now when did I make a claim of the Bold? Quote me on that.
If I remember correctly, I said that he doesn't need to connect to hit Sasuke. Can CS stop/repel Naruto in his tracks, probably, but if Naruto manages to get a hit in while it happens, Sasuke is going to be taking quite a bit of damage, more damage than Naruto will be receiving. But for your sake, let's say it would for sure. In that case Naruto would avoid getting hit altogether.

He can activate CS faster than Naruto can a Wind Rasengan, plus just like before, he has the range advantage.

That's if Naruto activates a Wind Rasengan before impact. Naruto can create a Massive Wind Rasengan before he gets close, rendering CS useless.

Kishimoto nerfed the copying ability so much that it's hard for you to understand it's effectiveness apparently.

Not really. I understand it quite well, but you along with a few other tend to overrate it.

Again, Kakashi copied over 1000 techniques and there's many he didn't copy....you can't just claim SM is better without even knowing what these techniques are.

Do you know what those techniques are?
By that same logic, you can't just claim that SM is inferior.

Not exactly given his character. Naruto wasn't a genius.

No it is without a doubt a nerf.
Even if he wasn't a genius like Sasuke or Neji(he's still a hard working genius like Lee), he had Jiraiya as his teacher.
He spent 3 years training with him and what did he have to show for it?
A boost on his base stats, a bigger Rasengan and being able to dispel normal Genjutsu.
Jiraiya spent a large portion of that time getting Naruto to try to gain control of the Kyuubi's chakra. Imagine if he'd spent that time on other things like getting him to learn of his wind element and possibly a second one as well as diversifying his jutsu arsenal. It's clear he was nerfed to give his enemies/opponents a chance, just so later Naruto could train again to overcome them.

Even with his massive Kyuubi amps - enhanced stamina, chakra reserves and advanced healing (proof below),

It's only massive when he's cloaked. Without the Kyuubi, he'd still have above average stamina and chakra reserves, just not as much as he has with the Kyuubi.

Sasuke always made better progress through training.

Largely thanks to his Sharingan.

During the Chunin exams, after an entire month of training for chakra control to walk on water and perform the summoning technique, Naruto could only summon a tadpole.


I'd say he should have learned Wind in between the timeskip, but in Part One definitely not. And we don't know how long it took Sasuke to master the Dragon Flame, Chidori Variants, & Kirin. So his standing could be the same regardless.

You can thank Kurama for that. He's the reason Naruto was such a late bloomer, by messing with his CC.

Said proof,

Minato set the seal so that the Kyuubi's chakra leaked out and combined with Naruto's to increase his already large stamina and chakra reserves.

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This/the next page.

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There really wasn't a need for this since this is something that is known.

(Naruto's chakra control was only messed up due to the seal Orochimaru placed on him to restrain the Fox, which Jiraiya fixed).

The seal Orochimaru placed on him made his CC more messed up than it already was. His CC was already off beforehand due to the fox and it's also why Naruto struggled to perform the Shadow Clone tech in the beginning.

Furthermore he received advanced healing (in/out of battle) This/the next , likewise with the following link.

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(Seconds after he stabbed himself - complete opposite of CM2)

During his Rasengan training, Tsunade - the best medic nin in the world, stated that Naruto would be unconscious for over a day due to training til exhaustion so much. Yet surprisingly, he fully recovered after a nights sleep, and Naruto said this always happens. Shizune contributed this to the Kyuubi. This/the next page.

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Okay? Is there a point to this, which is again something that is known?

Naruto's "base" is actually his + the Kyuubi's chakra.

Naruto's base without the Kyuubi's chakra is still above average, sure he'd lose out on the more stamina/chakra as well as the healing factor, but what he would gain puts him at a greater level since at that stage he isn't really fully utilizing the Kyubi's power. Also the Kyuubi is a double edged sword as seen in the manga, given that you can lose yourself, thus the use of it's chakra is justified.


P.S. Now since you are bringing the Kyuubi into this(the usual Kyuubi this, Kyuubi that whining), we can exclude him entirely if you'd like, but that would be a different Naruto. Either one that's less powerful or one that's more powerful(Not counting BM). I'd lean on more powerful especially in part 1. His CC problem would be gone, allowing him to master more techs efficiently. His reserves wouldn't be as great but they'd still be above average meaning SM would still be in his arsenal as well as FTG/Uzumaki sealing techs(assuming his parents would be alive). He'd be at the top of his class tbh. Also since this is about SM Naruto, he'd be able to fuse with Ma and Pa for continuous NE. I could go on and on.

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

Actually he is the more experienced fighter. But that example can't be applied here. The gap between Kaguya and Madara in terms of being a better fighter isn't the same in regards to Naruto and Sasuke.

Nonetheless i proved my point. Overall Sasuke is clearly better. Intelligence, Speed, Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Dojutsu, Kenjutsu, Bukijutsu, Summoning jutsu (a variety of weapons & snakes) & experience. Are all areas which he was more skilled in. The only things Naruto has over him is stamina, endurance, then strength & power with Sage Mode.

By looks, Kirin would win in the destructive department against RS up to Pain arc. But as I said, RS has the elemental advantage.

So did the double RS Bijudama. Still didn't overcome Indra's Arrow.

Considering Naruto's condition, maybe. It wouldn't be as easy if Naruto was at 100%.

With Kenjutsu alone, base Sasuke defeated dozens of ninja with absolute ease during his training with Orochimaru. Not getting a single scratch nor drop of blood on himself. This is far greater than dozens of clones which can be taken out from a single solid hit + have the same fighting style as the original.

Actually it's only after he has undergone SM that he has a problem in creating more clones.

The good thing about that fight is that Sasuke is his only opponent. He isn't fighting multiple bodies like he did against Pain. He can have a clone or two on standby just in case he runs out. Sasuke isn't trying anything. SM Naruto is on an entirely different league.

Good point. Clones are still fodder. But maybe, given the right battlefield, a clone could sneak away. If it's an open area like the destroyed Konoha then he's screwed. If it's a forest then he has a chance.

Now when did I make a claim of the Bold? Quote me on that.
If I remember correctly, I said that he doesn't need to connect to hit Sasuke. Can CS stop/repel Naruto in his tracks, probably, but if Naruto manages to get a hit in while it happens, Sasuke is going to be taking quite a bit of damage, more damage than Naruto will be receiving. But for your sake, let's say it would for sure. In that case Naruto would avoid getting hit altogether.

Given how close Naruto would need to get, CS would obviously become active before he could get could use FK.

That's if Naruto activates a Wind Rasengan before impact. Naruto can create a Massive Wind Rasengan before he gets close, rendering CS useless.

Then he switches to Chidori Senbon.

Not really. I understand it quite well, but you along with a few other tend to overrate it.

We definitely don't overate it. Kishimoto nerfed it for a reason. We saw the progress he made from copying during the exams.

Do you know what those techniques are?
By that same logic, you can't just claim that SM is inferior.

Basically every technique we see on screen that ultlizes handseals/isn't a KKG - Like the Lightning clone that Kakashi used against Pain and the Lightning Ball that Sarada copied from Buntan. There's tons of possibilities.

No it is without a doubt a nerf.
Even if he wasn't a genius like Sasuke or Neji(he's still a hard working genius like Lee), he had Jiraiya as his teacher.
He spent 3 years training with him and what did he have to show for it?
A boost on his base stats, a bigger Rasengan and being able to dispel normal Genjutsu.
Jiraiya spent a large portion of that time getting Naruto to try to gain control of the Kyuubi's chakra. Imagine if he'd spent that time on other things like getting him to learn of his wind element and possibly a second one as well as diversifying his jutsu arsenal. It's clear he was nerfed to give his enemies/opponents a chance, just so later Naruto could train again to overcome them.

You haven't factored in the possibility of Kishimoto not even thinking about given Naruto Wind Style til the Kakuzu arc...same thing with the Shadow Clone experience thing. If he really had that in mind, then Naruto would have been using it from day one. Meanwhile we know for certain that the Sharingan's copying ability was nerfed throughout the entire series because it was introduced in the first arc with Kakashi then used by Sasuke in the second.

And if Kishimoto had SM in mind in Part One, then there would hints toward it like the there was with the Mangekyo. Kishimoto clearly placed more thought toward Sasuke, which is part of why he's the best character in the series.

It's only massive when he's cloaked. Without the Kyuubi, he'd still have above average stamina and chakra reserves, just not as much as he has with the Kyuubi.

Nope, Kakashi was referring to base Naruto when he said Naruto's stamina is extraordinary because of the Kyuubi. Look at Boruto. He's considered a genius, yet even during the current arc, where he's no longer a slacker, trains, and is proficient with two elements, he can only create 4 clones. Yet Naruto fresh from the academy in chapter 1 created 1000.

Largely thanks to his Sharingan.

Yes, but it's his innate ability like Naruto's Uzumaki stamina and reserves. Except the Sharingan needs to be unlocked.

You can thank Kurama for that. He's the reason Naruto was such a late bloomer, by messing with his CC.

When was this ever stated? As far as i now that's just fan speculation. Like people misinterpreting Kakashi's words. Hence why i pointed out that Naruto's chakra control was only messed up due to Naruto. Besides, based on Naruto having so much more chakra than everyone, thus being able to train more, in addition to advanced healing, thus allowing him to train more, he had ample amount of time to work on his chakra control. He was still garbage in the academy. Him learning the advanced Shadow Clone jutsu within a few hours, shows that if he put more effort into training then he would have been better.

 

[Nick01]

Nonetheless i proved my point.

Not really.
Pain Arc SM Naruto>3 TS Sasuke.

Overall Sasuke is clearly better.

That depends. Sasuke being better in what you listed below isn't going to get him a win. Obviously.

Intelligence, Speed, Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Dojutsu, Kenjutsu, Bukijutsu, Summoning jutsu (a variety of weapons & snakes) & experience. Are all areas which he was more skilled in. The only things Naruto has over him is stamina, endurance, then strength & power with Sage Mode.

If it's the versions we are talking about.
Then Sasuke would be better/skilled in Intelligence, Speed, Taijutsu, Ninjutsu(Variety), Genjutsu(useless against SM), Kenjutsu, Bukijutsu than Base Naruto.(Being able to summon two types does not make them better in the Summoning department)
Also lmao @ putting Dojutsu in your list just for the sake of making it longer when Naruto himself wasn't born with one.

SM Naruto has him beat in Speed, Taijutsu, Power, Strength, Sensing, Reaction & Endurance.

So did the double RS Bijudama. Still didn't overcome Indra's Arrow.

It wasn't mean't to. Did Naruto attempt to kill Sasuke at all in that fight? No. Naruto fought to match not to win nor kill, while Sasuke fought to kill and win. Also Naruto merely used the NE of the surrounding area, while Sasuke used the chakra of all 9 Bijuu.(Not all of it, but quite a big amount by the looks of it)

With Kenjutsu alone, base Sasuke defeated dozens of ninja with absolute ease during his training with Orochimaru. Not getting a single scratch nor drop of blood on himself. This is far greater than dozens of clones which can be taken out from a single solid hit + have the same fighting style as the original.

Defeating a bunch of no names isn't very impressive. Sasuke has never defeated all of Naruto's clones with absolute ease(it always took time), even after the time skip to Vote 2. Like I said, it wouldn't be a no diff against 100% Naruto. Sure he'd still beat him and I recognize that, but you are severely overrating Sasuke, which is what I mentioned the other day that you fans tend to overrate him by quite a lot. It's like you have this mentality that he has to be better no matter what in every way, shape or form.

Good point. Clones are still fodder. But maybe, given the right battlefield, a clone could sneak away. If it's an open area like the destroyed Konoha then he's screwed. If it's a forest then he has a chance.

The clones only job are to buy time. Once Naruto has undergone SM, then it's a done deal. Then he can have a clone or two on standby while the real one deals with Sasuke.

Given how close Naruto would need to get, CS would obviously become active before he could get could use FK.

So you admit that you were wrong in saying this? :
"

That disproves your point. You claimed that he didn't need to be that close to use Frog Kata, thus Sasuke couldn't hit him with Chidori Stream.

"


Anyway like I said, Naruto would instead avoid getting hit by CS.

Then he switches to Chidori Senbon.

And Naruto takes advantage of his superior sensing capability and dodges accordingly.

We definitely don't overate it.

You do actually.

Kishimoto nerfed it for a reason.

It's nerfed but that's not the only one thing that's been nerfed.

We saw the progress he made from copying during the exams.

It has it's uses and it's a very useful thing to have, still, don't tell me that you thought that he'd be using a bunch of different jutsu's left and right just because he has come across a lot of them before.

Basically every technique we see on screen that ultlizes handseals/isn't a KKG - Like the Lightning clone that Kakashi used against Pain and the Lightning Ball that Sarada copied from Buntan. There's tons of possibilities.

Sure, but do they have the chakra capacity to pull them off in a single fight? Just like their chakra reserves are limited so are the number of techniques they use and how much chakra each tech expends.

You haven't factored in the possibility of Kishimoto not even thinking about given Naruto Wind Style til the Kakuzu arc...same thing with the Shadow Clone experience thing. If he really had that in mind, then Naruto would have been using it from day one. Meanwhile we know for certain that the Sharingan's copying ability was nerfed throughout the entire series because it was introduced in the first arc with Kakashi then used by Sasuke in the second.

Still a nerf on Naruto's part given that Natures were a thing since the beginning. Either that or Kishi unknowingly restricted Naruto's potential. He is by no means the greatest Mangaka, heck just look at the last few arcs of the Naruto Manga. He kept Naruto at the basics even in the beginning of part 2 and had him rely on the Kyuubi. And like I said, the Sharingan's copying ability isn't the only thing that's been nerfed.

And if Kishimoto had SM in mind in Part One, then there would hints toward it like the there was with the Mangekyo. Kishimoto clearly placed more thought toward Sasuke, which is part of why he's the best character in the series.

Correction* He placed more thought toward the Uchiha, not Sasuke in particular.
Also the Bold is 100% an opinion of yours, definitely not a fact, at all.

 

[Naruto X Hunter]

It wasn't mean't to. Did Naruto attempt to kill Sasuke at all in that fight? No. Naruto fought to match not to win nor kill, while Sasuke fought to kill and win. Also Naruto merely used the NE of the surrounding area, while Sasuke used the chakra of all 9 Bijuu.(Not all of it, but quite a big amount by the looks of it)

Naruto had portions of each Biju's chakra aswell. Hence the mode he was in. Him not wanting to kill Sasuke is irrelevant in this moment considering he used all the power he had/could get. Do you really think he somehow knew exactly how strong Indra arrow was? Hell, the same can be said to the prior attacks. They matched for a reason, because they were equal.

Defeating a bunch of no names isn't very impressive.

Yeah, you say that, but meanwhile Orochimaru is saying Sasuke is a greater genius than himself....

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.

And it's not just the fact that he beat them all, it's how he did it. Sasuke defeated them all in base with Kenjutsu alone without getting a single scratch nor drop of blood on himself while not killing them.

You don't think defeating clones won't be easier? He doesn't have to hold back as much nor do they havs the variety of techniques that this army did.

Sasuke has never defeated all of Naruto's clones with absolute ease(it always took time), even after the time skip to Vote 2. Like I said, it wouldn't be a no diff against 100% Naruto. Sure he'd still beat him and I recognize that, but you are severely overrating Sasuke, which is what I mentioned the other day that you fans tend to overrate him by quite a lot. It's like you have this mentality that he has to be better no matter what in every way, shape or form.

It's not that he has too, it's that he is. Hebi Sasuke would indeed fodderdize them. Unlike Kid Sasuke he has far greater speed, Taijutsu, Kenjutsu, better Fire style, Chidori Senbon, Chidori Stream, Chidori Katana, can extend Chidori, can summon/throw a massive amount of Shuriken within seconds, and can enhance everything with his now mastered Curse Mark level 1 and 2 plus he has snakes. Orochimaru even stated that 3 tails Naruto wasn't even in the same league as Sasuke.....

The clones only job are to buy time. Once Naruto has undergone SM, then it's a done deal. Then he can have a clone or two on standby while the real one deals with Sasuke.

What if Sasuke summons Manda as soon as the battle starts?

So you admit that you were wrong in saying this?

No, since CS has better range than FK, Naruto wouldn't get close enough to use FK before CS is activated, but like you said, Naruto would just evade

It has it's uses and it's a very useful thing to have, still, don't tell me that you thought that he'd be using a bunch of different jutsu's left and right just because he has come across a lot of them before.

Yes, he could At least copy a few that suite his fighting style.

Correction* He placed more thought toward the Uchiha, not Sasuke in particular.
Also the Bold is 100% an opinion of yours, definitely not a fact, at all.

It's an objective fact. He is the best written.

 

[DHOH]

The adult versions of both, as neither has shown anything past their vote2 selves yet.

How do you figure ems sauce is overrated? Dude only had ems for like 2 days

More like hours

 

[Nick01]

Naruto had portions of each Biju's chakra aswell.

Minuscule.

Hence the mode he was in. Him not wanting to kill Sasuke is irrelevant in this moment considering he used all the power he had/could get. Do you really think he somehow knew exactly how strong Indra arrow was? Hell, the same can be said to the prior attacks. They matched for a reason, because they were equal.

Naruto was on the defensive for the majority of the battle, not wanting to kill Sasuke, even Sasuke pointed it out. It's obvious if Naruto wanted to kill Sasuke, he could. It's only after Sasuke pulled in the chakra from the bijuu that Naruto had to get more serious.

Yeah, you say that, but meanwhile Orochimaru is saying Sasuke is a greater genius than himself....

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.

And it's not just the fact that he beat them all, it's how he did it. Sasuke defeated them all in base with Kenjutsu alone without getting a single scratch nor drop of blood on himself while not killing them.

You don't think defeating clones won't be easier? He doesn't have to hold back as much nor do they havs the variety of techniques that this army did.

In every battle Sasuke took against Naruto's clones, it always took a bit of time to beat them. That time being enough for Naruto to gather NE.

It's not that he has too, it's that he is.

lol More bias, why am I not surprised and no not by a long shot. Sorry to disappoint.

Hebi Sasuke would indeed fodderdize them.

Doubt it.

Unlike Kid Sasuke he has far greater speed, Taijutsu, Kenjutsu, better Fire style, Chidori Senbon, Chidori Stream, Chidori Katana, can extend Chidori, can summon/throw a massive amount of Shuriken within seconds, and can enhance everything with his now mastered Curse Mark level 1 and 2 plus he has snakes.

Obviously Hebi Sasuke would be greater than his kid self.
All of that is still not enough to put him on the same tier as SM Naruto.(Pain Arc)

Orochimaru even stated that 3 tails Naruto wasn't even in the same league as Sasuke.....

Feats say otherwise.

What if Sasuke summons Manda as soon as the battle starts?

Naruto summons Chief Toad and the rest of what I said in my last post follows.

It's an objective fact. He is the best written.

Fact≠Opinion and that is an opinion.