KA is slow, that is its major flaw, people think that KA can oneshot people as fast as tsukuyomi can, but when was that ever shown or stated? It wasnt.
Why do you assume it's slow? When the KA crow was thrown out by Naruto, KA worked on Itachi seemingly immediately. I see no reason to assume it's slow without evidence to back it up.
Kakashi is OP, but his kamui only has a few shots before he runs out of chakra & becomes completely useless. Kamui's weakness for kakashi is its toll on his performance. Either way, with kamui he's top 15 & without it he's not, because it's basically a powerup.
First of all, in 1v1 situations the number of shots Kakashi has doesn't matter, since Kakashi has never missed with Kamui unless you count his first use of it ever.
Second of all, Kakashi used it 5 times after halving his remaining chakra at least once (creating a kage bunshin) but possibly twice (said clone was not shown in the manga anywhere around later, but after several chapters we again see Kakashi using Raiden) which itself occured after he was already fighting for a whole day, using techniques both in-panel and most likely off-panel. That gives Kakashi at full chakra more than 10 (20 if that wasn't the same bunshin) kamui shots a day + many other "standard" techniques, which is more than enough to handle anyone.
No they cant. Zetsu's words - " an expert with a rock can beat a novice with a kunai". Just because they have an OP jutsu, doesnt mean that they can compete with the big dogs. They dont have the skill & 1 OP jutsu (in their case) isnt going to cut it.
I'm not denying Zetsu's words. The problem is, both KA and Kamui are far more dangerous than a mere shuriken, which can be both blocked and/or avoided. KA and Kamui cannot.
I understand your opinion but a statement "Madara won't get caught in Kamui because he's too strong" is not an argument. Kakashi himself claimed that no one apart from Obito can stop his Kamui so what evidence do you have to say that Madara is kamui-resistant?
Funny how you disregard obito who solos 99.9% of the NV because of 1 jutsu I guess thinking this way must be simplistic even though its proven fact pretty much that the more OP your jutsu is, the stronger you are..
Out of all of Obito's fights (Mist ninja, Minato, Danzo's dogs, Konan, Naruto and co, Kakashi) he only solo'ed Fu & Torune and Konan. He had Zetsu's help when dealing with mist ANBU, he was smacked by Minato, he had Kabuto's edo jins when facing Naruto and co, and he was smacked again by Kakashi.
I think you got me wrong. I'm not saying an OP jutsu is NOT a factor when determining people's strength. It obviously is. Both Obito and Kakashi are higher in the rankings thanks to their Kamui than they would be otherwise. I'm simply saying an OP technique doesn't automatically make you stronger than this technique's victim.
And I'm still waiting for Madara's counter to KA or Kamui.
Why do you assume it's slow? When the KA crow was thrown out by Naruto, KA worked on Itachi seemingly immediately. I see no reason to assume it's slow without evidence to back it up.
& btw he was looking directly at it. Direct eye contact doesnt need to be made but indirect eye contact, yes. The fact that danzo can use it with bandages simply means that it can get people through objects. You dont look at someones toes & they get KA'd, that's not how ocular genjutsu works.
First of all, in 1v1 situations the number of shots Kakashi has doesn't matter, since Kakashi has never missed with Kamui unless you count his first use of it ever.
Second of all, Kakashi used it 5 times after halving his remaining chakra at least once (creating a kage bunshin) but possibly twice (said clone was not shown in the manga anywhere around later, but after several chapters we again see Kakashi using Raiden) which itself occured after he was already fighting for a whole day, using techniques both in-panel and most likely off-panel. That gives Kakashi at full chakra more than 10 (20 if that wasn't the same bunshin) kamui shots a day + many other "standard" techniques, which is more than enough to handle anyone.
1. Just because he never misses doesnt mean that he cant be defeated, the shots do matter because if a character can create clones or block the shots or dodge the shots with speed (or cancel the jutsu altogether), then that puts kakashi at a disadvantage. Kakashi gets weaker after every kamui use.
2. Please provide scans of these so called feats.. Words aint enough..
I'm not denying Zetsu's words. The problem is, both KA and Kamui are far more dangerous than a mere shuriken, which can be both blocked and/or avoided. KA and Kamui cannot.
I understand your opinion but a statement "Madara won't get caught in Kamui because he's too strong" is not an argument. Kakashi himself claimed that no one apart from Obito can stop his Kamui so what evidence do you have to say that Madara is kamui-resistant?
KA is not dangerous, you think it is because of its hype, if you actually analyze jutsus like I do then you would see that KA is not what its cracked up to be.
Kamui on the other hand is OP however it doesnt make kakashi #1 due to his kamui's weaknesses. Eg. Susanoo >>>> kamui - kakashi kamuis part of susanoos armor, madara regens it, rince, repeat until kakashi runs out of kamui shots.
Kakashi cannot teleport to the top of susanoo's head so he cannot counter it. He loses, he also loses to around 12 more ninja, but after that he is pretty much solid (because of kamui).
Out of all of Obito's fights (Mist ninja, Minato, Danzo's dogs, Konan, Naruto and co, Kakashi) he only solo'ed Fu & Torune and Konan. He had Zetsu's help when dealing with mist ANBU, he was smacked by Minato, he had Kabuto's edo jins when facing Naruto and co, and he was smacked again by Kakashi.
I think you got me wrong. I'm not saying an OP jutsu is NOT a factor when determining people's strength. It obviously is. Both Obito and Kakashi are higher in the rankings thanks to their Kamui than they would be otherwise. I'm simply saying an OP technique doesn't automatically make you stronger than this technique's victim.
@Bold: Sort of agree, because as I said depending on the OPness of a jutsu it certainly can give you an auto win on its victims. But remember it depends on the jutsu. Susanoo, ama, deva path, kamui. These jutsus are seriously OP. KA is not really, kakashi's kamui isnt that OP either.
And I'm still waiting for Madara's counter to KA or Kamui.
Gave you kamui's counter, KA is countered by susanoo again. Madara wont be looking at his eyes at that point, or he'll just be too high for danzo to maintain a proper connection.
Kamui is a prime example, FTG is another one. Without these jutsus both minato & obito would not be top 10 (well rinnegan obito might barely make it but minato would be in the top 20 if he's lucky).
I give you that, KA is not instant, but it doesn't take as long as you think. It took only two of the four pages you provided for Itachi to break out of edo control (the beginning of the third page is already showing Kabuto surprised with Itachi's escape). What's more, almost half of panels on these two pages were actually flashbacks.
So while it might not take a fraction of a second to cast, it's still very fast - especially since the victims won't even realize what's going on (remember KA traps people in genjutsu without them realizing it). I still see no way KA can be countered.
Direct eye contact doesnt need to be made but indirect eye contact, yes. The fact that danzo can use it with bandages simply means that it can get people through objects. You dont look at someones toes & they get KA'd, that's not how ocular genjutsu works.
That's what I meant by saying it doesn't require eye contact. As opposed to Kamui, you can't avoid KA by hiding from your enemy's sight, since, as you yourself put it, KA can get you through objects.
Though I disagree with your statement "that's not how ocular genjutsu works" - Izanagi and Izanami are ocular genjutsu, yet they don't require eye contact.
1. Just because he never misses doesnt mean that he cant be defeated, the shots do matter because if a character can create clones or block the shots or dodge the shots with speed (or cancel the jutsu altogether), then that puts kakashi at a disadvantage. Kakashi gets weaker after every kamui use.
Kakashi only began to feel the effects of Kamui after using it for a 4th time during the war (when teleporting Naruto's clone), so it doesn't immediately get Kakashi weaker after every kamui use, as you put it.
I agree that characters can create clones to avoid Kamui - that's a situational counter that can be utilized to avoid absolutely anything apart from large area jutsu like Madara's meteorite. But, as I said, it's situational. You need to prepare it beforehand for it to work. What's more, it's Kakashi that is famous for bunshin feints - no other character was said or shown to be able to create and substitute with clones so skillfully that the enemy won't notice it until it's too late. Kakashi, on the other hand, does it all the time.
2. Please provide scans of these so called feats.. Words aint enough..
Ok. I won't post scans of every jutsu Kakashi uses because it's not that important. The most important things are Kakashi using clones and Kamui.
Here Kakashi creates a clone for the first time, which equals to halving his current chakra (which wasn't at maximum due to earlier use of many techniques):
You must be registered for see images
Then the clone is no longer seen around later:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Then Kakashi was seen with a clone again, which is not proved to be, but everything implies that's the case, a new clone, which would mean Kakashi halved his remaining chakra (less than 50%) once again (being left with less than 25%):
You must be registered for see images
And then we start with Kakashi's five Kamui (notice that only after the fourth one did he start to feel fatigue); also, while kamuing Gedo's head failed because of Obito's intervention, the warphole was already created, meaning Kakashi used his chakra for it, too:
First Kamui:
You must be registered for see images
Second Kamui:
You must be registered for see images
Third Kamui:
You must be registered for see images
Fourth Kamui:
You must be registered for see images
Fifth Kamui:
You must be registered for see images
So, as you can see, Kakashi can use either 10+ kamui on full chakra or 20+ kamui on full chakra, depending on whether we assume that Kakashi created another kage bunshin later or not.
Kamui on the other hand is OP however it doesnt make kakashi #1 due to his kamui's weaknesses. Eg. Susanoo >>>> kamui - kakashi kamuis part of susanoos armor, madara regens it, rince, repeat until kakashi runs out of kamui shots.
Susanoo can't protect the user from Kamui, since Susanoo is transparent. Kakashi can still focus his eye on the user and kamui him, without touching Susanoo.
KA is countered by susanoo again. Madara wont be looking at his eyes at that point, or he'll just be too high for danzo to maintain a proper connection.
I think your KA counter is plausible, provided Madara resorts to Susanoo right away. But if he has no knowledge of KA, he is VERY likely to understimate his opponent, which would be fatal for him.
By the way, from your earlier post (not so much from this one) I felt some animosity. Relax. We're just discussing things out.
Kamui is a prime example, FTG is another one. Without these jutsus both minato & obito would not be top 10 (well rinnegan obito might barely make it but minato would be in the top 20 if he's lucky).
Well yes as I said it does COUNT but it's not just 1 Jutsu for example.. you said FTG ? What FTG alone could do ?.. Minato also has Rasengan, KCM, RDS and other Jutsus that can help him overcome some shinobies and go top 10.
Well we can say a Shinobi with 1 Main OP Jutsu, can go top.. but only if he also has other Jutsus to back it up.
I give you that, KA is not instant, but it doesn't take as long as you think. It took only two of the four pages you provided for Itachi to break out of edo control (the beginning of the third page is already showing Kabuto surprised with Itachi's escape). What's more, almost half of panels on these two pages were actually flashbacks.
So while it might not take a fraction of a second to cast, it's still very fast - especially since the victims won't even realize what's going on (remember KA traps people in genjutsu without them realizing it). I still see no way KA can be countered.
Still its too slow to have any sort of effect on top tier ninja, danzo will be prepping KA, & in those 4 manga pages (yes 4 look at the blood dripping from Itachi's eye) another powerful ninja can easily shunshin or counterattack.
That's what I meant by saying it doesn't require eye contact. As opposed to Kamui, you can't avoid KA by hiding from your enemy's sight, since, as you yourself put it, KA can get you through objects.
Who said hiding? speed, & size are the key factors here, without those things then yes KA can be deadly but otherwise it has a 1/10 shot at working..
Though I disagree with your statement "that's not how ocular genjutsu works" - Izanagi and Izanami are ocular genjutsu, yet they don't require eye contact.
These jutsus are not normal genjutsus, they are kinjutsus, they have a different classification than any regular ocular genjutsu. Still chakra needs to be implemented through some sort of contact, the eye must have be able to receive the chakra. You cant look at someones toes & be able to transfer chakra to their brain, what kind of logic is that? Even izanami requires contact in order to work.
Kakashi only began to feel the effects of Kamui after using it for a 4th time during the war (when teleporting Naruto's clone), so it doesn't immediately get Kakashi weaker after every kamui use, as you put it.
Dont disagree without proof, you need to show me kakashi's state after every kamui use that you mentioned, then you can disagree.
EDIT: Looks like you did below, leaving this here for a reminder.
I agree that characters can create clones to avoid Kamui - that's a situational counter that can be utilized to avoid absolutely anything apart from large area jutsu like Madara's meteorite. But, as I said, it's situational. You need to prepare it beforehand for it to work. What's more, it's Kakashi that is famous for bunshin feints - no other character was said or shown to be able to create and substitute with clones so skillfully that the enemy won't notice it until it's too late. Kakashi, on the other hand, does it all the time.
Many ninja can bunshin feint, yes kakashi is good but that doesnt mean others cant to it. Itachi can create kage bunshins just as fast, if not faster than kakashi (part 1). So this is still a viable option, especially for the top 12 ninja that can beat him.
Ok. I won't post scans of every jutsu Kakashi uses because it's not that important. The most important things are Kakashi using clones and Kamui.
Bro I just stopped dead in my tracks, this is flawed logic..Seriously?
Here Kakashi creates a clone for the first time, which equals to halving his current chakra (which wasn't at maximum due to earlier use of many techniques):
You must be registered for see images
Then the clone is no longer seen around later:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Then Kakashi was seen with a clone again, which is not proved to be, but everything implies that's the case, a new clone, which would mean Kakashi halved his remaining chakra (less than 50%) once again (being left with less than 25%):
Show me kakashi's first bunshin disappear, & show me him summoning another kage bunshin, otherwise its the same one. He used 1 clone which dissipated afterwards.
And then we start with Kakashi's five Kamui (notice that only after the fourth one did he start to feel fatigue); also, while kamuing Gedo's head failed because of Obito's intervention, the warphole was already created, meaning Kakashi used his chakra for it, too:
Small kamuis, these are obviously viable but it helps my point, show me kakashi using a clone sized kamui. He knows that his kamuis need to be small otherwise he will keel over (which is what he did when warping naruto).
No this is actually 2nd full sized kamui. At most he can do three (if you include the kunai & rasengan as a full kamui).
So, as you can see, Kakashi can use either 10+ kamui on full chakra or 20+ kamui on full chakra, depending on whether we assume that Kakashi created another kage bunshin later or not.
How can you even come to this conclusion? You are misreading the scans & thinking that kakashi's clone was active during all of these warps.. How can you even consider 20+ kamuis? That's ridiculous if you ask me. U_U
Susanoo can't protect the user from Kamui, since Susanoo is transparent. Kakashi can still focus his eye on the user and kamui him, without touching Susanoo.
I think your KA counter is plausible, provided Madara resorts to Susanoo right away. But if he has no knowledge of KA, he is VERY likely to understimate his opponent, which would be fatal for him.
Could be, but highly unlikely because danzo is a fodder. The chances of him trapping madara in a genjutsu that takes 4 manga panels worth of prep is hopeful at best.
By the way, from your earlier post (not so much from this one) I felt some animosity. Relax. We're just discussing things out.
I'm so glad someone else made this thread. It's been on my mind for a long time but I just never bothered to do this. I agree completely. Not because a character can beat another means that in all cases as such said character is stronger than the other.
Many ninja can bunshin feint, yes kakashi is good but that doesnt mean others cant to it. Itachi can create kage bunshins just as fast, if not faster than kakashi (part 1). So this is still a viable option, especially for the top 12 ninja that can beat him.
I disagree with Itachi having as good bunshin feints as Kakashi.
It's true that they both used bunshin feints on each other in part 1, but Kakashi saw through Itachi's before actually the clone dissipated. Itachi, on the other hand, only noticed he stabbed the clone when it was revealed to be so.
Kakashi's bunshin mastery was later confirmed in Part II when he tricked Itachi with a bunshin once again and again, Itachi only realized it when it was too late.
Bro I just stopped dead in my tracks, this is flawed logic..Seriously?
I don't really get what you're referring to. The fact that I decided not to post scan of EVERY jutsu Kakashi performs during the war?
Show me kakashi's first bunshin disappear, & show me him summoning another kage bunshin, otherwise its the same one. He used 1 clone which dissipated afterwards.
How is the chakra not used until the object is gone? Look at Kamui used against Deidara - Kakashi was getting fatigued by CREATING the hole, not by warping anything into it and that makes perfect sense. Kakashi only uses chakra to create the hole, not to suck anything in it. Once the hole is created it does all the sucking itself.
Against Gedo, Kakashi obviously created the hole (the hole was shown to be there), but Obito simply stopped the hole from sucking Gedo's head in. Kakashi's chakra didn't magically return to him, just like Kakashi would need to spend chakra to use Kamui in the air, sucking nothing.
Small kamuis, these are obviously viable but it helps my point, show me kakashi using a clone sized kamui. He knows that his kamuis need to be small otherwise he will keel over (which is what he did when warping naruto).
You should take into account how much he had fought already before using this Kamui to warp Naruto's clone.
How can you even come to this conclusion? You are misreading the scans & thinking that kakashi's clone was active during all of these warps.. How can you even consider 20+ kamuis? That's ridiculous if you ask me. U_U
Wait, I'm getting lost - what does Kakashi's clone have to do with this? I said that Kakashi halved his chakra at least once, which left him with less than 50% chakra (because he wasn't at full chakra when he created the bunshin).
I assume you agree with this?
Even if not counting all the other techniques Kakashi used after that apart from Kamui, we still see that Kakashi used 5 Kamui on this remaining (that is, less than 50% of his max) chakra.
So if he can do at least 5 kamui on less than half his chakra, he can do at least 10 kamui when rested. Which part do you disagree with?
Why not? Databook states Kakashi by using Kamui creates a barrier in the spot he focuses on.
You can look at the window, but you can also look through the window. Kakashi can focus his sight on Susanoo's user because Susanoo is transparent. Nothing in the manga indicates he can't use Kamui in this situation.
Could be, but highly unlikely because danzo is a fodder. The chances of him trapping madara in a genjutsu that takes 4 manga panels worth of prep is hopeful at best.
Kamui has effects that have nothing to do with chakra....
The effects that kakashi feels is his body becoming fatigue because he is not an uchiha. He cannot use more than 5 kamui without dying. His body cannot take it.
Kamui has effects that have nothing to do with chakra....
The effects that kakashi feels is his body becoming fatigue because he is not an uchiha. He cannot use more than 5 kamui without dying. His body cannot take it.
That's very wrong.
Kamui's effects ARE related to chakra. Yes, he's a non-Uchiha and so he needs more chakra to use MS. That's why his fatigue increases faster from overusing it.
A statement that he cannot use more than 5 without dying is your unsupported opinion, the manga implies otherwise.
Notice Kakashi's statement before using a fourth Kamui: "Considering my remaining chakra, I can only use it a few more times".
Another proof: When he got his chakra restored he was ready to spam Kamui fresh as new.
Conclusion: Fatigue from Kamui depends solely on chakra.
