Minato, Hiruzen and Hashirama were child murders too.
- Thread starter Dantee
- Start date
It actually is. Itachi killed the Uchiha Clan, which in terms means a compound of people who originate from the same linage. In other words, families of Uchiha living together in the formation of such said Clan.
Minato, Hiruzen, and Hashirama all fought shinobi. There isn't really an explanation on children murders. We've only seen Hashirama fight a child before, but he was also the same age. The only time we've actually seen children go up against adults and actually have been murdered, was during the wars before Konohagakure was even built.
Since then we haven't seen such acts.
YellowFang
Active member
unknownvillain1254
Active member
That is a complete and utter bull shit the understanding of history is deluded all Europeans did was spread the same evil and Injustice and oppression from themselves to another people and called it justice (dazon) basically
The op did not start out with Itachi, but alright.
He's confirmed to not have directly killed children in the manga, if that is your qualm.
"Had killed his friend, his superiors, had killed his lover, and his father, and mother."
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And don't bother using an excuse along the lines of "Tobi is only mentioning people he had connections with to get through to Sasuke". As Itachi had no emotional connection to his superiors (ie: entire Police Force), meanwhile he had emotional connections to "aunt and uncle" and other members which Obito failed to mention.
That's canon from the manga and the novels actually describe the massacre and who killed who- it just reconfirms the manga. Tobi killed children, elderly, women, and any others he came across with kamui as this was the quickest way in comparison to how they would die at the hands of Konoha Anbu. They didn't see it coming at all.
That's an entirely different crime and a very off-base comparison.
Nowhere in the entire franchise is the clan massacre looked at as a mistake. Some people do believe they could have prevented it if they had been more efficient themselves (ex: Hiruzen mentions that he should have never left Danzo in charge of the village's dark side, Minato says he should have lived longer and if he did maybe he could have done something, etc). So, it is looked at as a sin. But, the narrative portrays it as a necessary sin since at the point it escalated to, there was no turning back as both sides (Uchiha clan and Konoha echelons) were incoherent, stubborn, and in no shape for any future cooperation.
On Itachi's end, the 4th databook confirms that the Uchiha were beyond being persuaded from their attack and it was his only option left if he was going to save anything at all. He told Sasuke as an Edo Tensei that he could have changed the clan as a white lie- he wanted Sasuke to have confidence to move on with his own ideas, hence why he was putting Sasuke above him and saying he could handle scenarios better and succeed at things unlike him.
What Itachi does truthfully admit about the massacre was that it was a crime, however, he never thinks it was unnecessary. He does regret how things turned out despite it being due to his bleak circumstances and has a conscience, this is what his words are meant to show. But, his actions are justified in the context of the story as he did not decide who would die, but only if he would do it himself and kill his clan (which was done regardless) and prevent other deaths- he only sacrifices his own reputation. This is also why people who are responsible for who would die (ie: people who escalated things) like Fugaku, Danzo, the Uchiha Police Force, Tobi, etc are looked at in a negative light.
Itachi's actions are accepted by the militia set-up and he has cleaner hands than most legitimate shinobi who bore the brunt of the world's darkness. I wouldn't say those are faults as he did make the correct decisions for the world he live in. I would say the system itself is flawed. The shinobi system should end, but alas the franchise must continue for monetary purposes lol. We can't have a series without ninjas, now can we?
Also, a character having reasons for their actions doesn't make them perfect- perfection is a bit too subjective in the first place and flaws can be present in a plethora of other areas. Whether it be personality, stubborn ideologies, lying to one's self, etc-Itachi has flaws here actually.
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How do you know Itachi didn't have any connection to his superiors? You're saying he doesn't, but we don't really know much of Itachi's life from thereafter.
Either way it doesn't change the fact that Itachi and Obito murdered the entire clan. A selected few isn't a Clan. The argument itself has no real grounding, because the only Uchiha superiors would be those in higher rank than Itachi in the Police Force. And Fugaku was the Leader of the Clan correct?
Do these people look like superiors to you?
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Anyway, it's a given that Itachi murdered more people than that. There's no way Itachi killed a select few shinobi, and Obito killed the rest. That would literally make no sense :lol
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Because we have already seen his connections. He cared for his father, mother, brother, and friends/elders.
We know he didn't have connections with his superiors as he fervently disagreed with them, Yashiro/Tekka/Inabi's treatment offer a little insight in regards to that.
Yes, they did. But, it does matter given context. We know the massacre resulted due to years of tension between the clan and village. But, people also seem to care about who exactly killed what demographic. We know who killed who.
The Uchiha Police Force makes up slightly over half the clan. Hardly a "selected few".
Itachi was to obey anyone older than him. All people in the Police Force had a higher rank than him simply because had had not yet entered the Police Force, he was too young to do so. He was even almost arrested by a few of them (Yashiro, Tekka, Inabi).
Yes, and it was already mentioned that his parents had to urge him to kill them as he cried. lol
Yes, Tobi mentions the father. Is there a point to be made here?
Are you referring to the clothing and lack of Police Force symbol/crest?
Police Force members wear regular attire when off-duty (which would include at night):
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What Obito states equates to half of the clan on Itachi's end, so it makes perfect sense. The Uchiha Police Force isn't a "select few shinobi", it's an entire organization which villagers feared and respected.
Yet Tobi implies he had connections with a female as well, with no such basis to prove it. The point I'm making is that Itachi's life is somewhat left out.
Yeah they both killed the Clan, but it should be obvious from the context that Itachi didn't kill just these people. He only implied those who would be important in the message. That Itachi could kill everyone with no remorse, everyone except Sasuke.
If Obito used that in sentence with other people listed with his mother, father, friends, and apparently 'lovers', that means they had something important to do with Itachi's personal life. At least.
Not every Police man from the Uchiha Clan is a superior to Itachi.
Itachi was never apart of the Police Force to begin with. Unless the ranking system had involved the Clan system itself, rather than those who were under Law Enforcement.
Point was above.
Referring to the fact that you can't prove that these men were actually police men, or just regular Uchiha members.
The problem here is not that Itachi and Obito didn't have certain members to take down, it's that they had to take down anyone that got in their way as well. I highly doubt that they both got away with their murders without people noticing what was going on.
If we only know what we are shown then Itachi didn't actually kill any kids. He might take responsibility for it but we never seen him actually do it that's the logic you're implying. The four nations have been in numerous wars/standoffs and for the most part bad relations with each other. All villages were shown to make shinobi out of children regardless of age and none of them had anything against that notion.
My logic doesn't have to do with what's showcased, but with what's implied. A Clan being destroyed means that those responsible had to take care of everyone. It's like people thinking the shinobi from other nations didn't murder innocent women and children as well, despite them being scared of Uzumaki sealing powers.
Yes, but a girlfriend is automatically more intimate than someone he is required to report to. That would be someone he appreciated by choice and denotes a personal connection on its own accord. We don't need to see them together to know there's a connection with that.
Your argument is that he had close connections with Police Force members who he completely disagreed with and was only obligated to stand.
His life is not really left out here as his interactions and dialogue through Sasuke's flashbacks allow us to know what he thought of the superiors, specifically. If there were to be one he was on good terms with (and he only would be if he agreed with them... as this would be the only unifying emotional factor as they aren't direct personal family like his parents/Sasuke or friends like Shisui or gf), then they would be with him supporting his beliefs against the coup. This never occurs. No close connection, only obligation.
Obito was explicitly stating who Itachi killed and as confirmed, superiors who came up with the idea of a coup are not people close to Itachi.
What your statement claims as "obvious" is really just wishful thinking on your part because you want Itachi to have killed innocent people directly so that you can keep the idea that Kishimoto contradicted a character who desired peace. Which even so does not really, but you somehow believe it would from previous statements outside this thread. Probably because you ignore circumstances as the idea of Itachi being remotely good just rubs you the wrong way deep down. Let's be honest.
And I'm not saying that to sound pretentious or anything like that (not my intention, but it might look that way since it's the internet) but that's just my personal analysis regarding your points.
Also, no remorse? Really...
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That was not the best way to put it.
The clan as a whole has something to do with his personal life as they and the village decided his fate in regards to whether or not he'd commit any sin at all. I wouldn't say that everyone in his entire clan and village had direct personal bonds to him.
To claim that people like this:
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They are as all have the right to order him around due to their position.
Yes, and this is exactly why the Police Force members (who actually held ranks, were directly responsible in regulating clan actions, etc) could take charge over him (a kid with no rank). These do qualify as superiors.
The non-valid one?
Well, neither of us know which they are- they could be either. However, the Uchiha Police Force does make up a little over half the clan. I doubt that Itachi with his strained MS did more than half while Tobi had a hax technique like kamui.
That's what happened given no one escaped and the commotion was highly minimal. They didn't notice enough to actually get away and do something.
The novels describe Itachi as knocking out a few people he came across and then killing who Obito mentioned. The Police Force was easy as they were at a meeting (minus his parents who knew the massacre was going to happen) all in the same building the night before the coup. And then some members went into buildings/houses and he got them as well.
^You don't look at the novels seriously, but a scenario like this is far more probable canon wise than Itachi taking the time to go to every house on one half of the compound with no one being able to escape while Obito does the same (but with his kamui which takes far less time as he can phase through everything). Itachi is still human, it doesn't matter how skilled he is as this is not a 1v1 fight, this is mass annihilation. It's not possible for him with his abilities to do it the traditional way he does as one young man.
Yes, but as the massacre was the result of the bitter relations between Konoha and the Uchiha clan, the only valid point left for criticism is who killed who directly as the feud didn't result from Itachi's actions.
You're trying to prove that Itachi directly killed children when a) Obito stated who he killed in the manga which you deem canon and b) a Japanese writer Kishimoto approved to write a novel confirmed Itachi did not but you deem this as filler because Kishimoto did not write it all by himself.
No one is disputing who died (which is why the Uzumaki clan massacre was not a good example, no one is disputing if children died but at whose hands... with the Uzumaki we don't even know who annihilated them or why other than fear, it's a dead plot point entirely), but for your desires of portraying Itachi in an entirely immoral light despite the shinobi setting and the convictions of both sides which leads to the Catch 22 scenario he finds himself in the first place, you insist upon him having must killed them himself.
I'm sorry, but your claim is based on circumstantial evidence and is in direct conflict with the manga you approve of. And the novels literally destroy your point but you don't care for those so I will refrain from mentioning those further. I don't think I'll change your mind since you seem pretty steadfast in this idea while I'm the opposite, so I guess this discussion is over. Thanks for replying.
Back to the op before this thread gets absurdly off-topic: murder as a whole in the most basic moral sense is wrong. Shinobi are wrong. During the war era, people like Hashirama, Madara, etc were expected to kill anyone from the other side regardless of age. We saw Hashirama's younger brother who had just turned 6 get killed by adult Uchiha. I doubt that Itama was an actual threat to the three Uchiha men, but they killed him so that he wouldn't become one when he'd get older. It's wrong to us since we have higher moral standards. We're not ninjas. But, they find it justifiable since that's just the way the shinobi life is. They can't change it as mass reforms are not possible, people wouldn't just give up the ways of old otherwise they would have no other way to make a living. There wasn't a replacement for the shinobi system during their war era just as there was not during Itachi's time. Maybe in the future, but once again I doubt they'd stop milking the franchise by giving a steady conclusion like that.
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That depends on their friendship, speaking on terms with such said superiors. Obviously Obito was not bringing up the Police Force in whole as the comparison was with people who were close to him in that regard. It had to be a specific person, or group of friends that he knew.
Huh? The only thing the Police Force did not stand for was the disappearance of Shisui and ... Itachi was the last person to contact him. Not to mention Itachi was the only Uchiha working directly for the Hokage (or Danzou?), which gave them a reason to doubt him after his death. Doesn't mean they didn't trust him before, because all that Itachi did was for the sake of his Clan. Before the massacre anyway.
He actually has no interaction, dailogue, or flash back with almost half of the list Obito stated in the sentence. Girl friend? Non existent and never mentioned ever. Superiors? Who were they?
Obito was implying that Itachi couldn't kill Sasuke despite killing these people in his life. It doesn't really say he killed only "these people"
Er, not really. Him killing innocent children doesn't contradict the peacemaker statement, it's him killing innocents in the first place. Not everyone was apart of the coup. His parents? Sure. Police corp? Unspecified percent. Girl friend? Who knows.
Well not quite.
Considering he murdered about everyone else aside from his parents without shedding any tears ... That wasn't the best way to put it?
I don't think that he had personal ties to the entire Clan.
Their interactions with Itachi was more or less justified, points aide.
What position? Honestly Itachi could of joined the Police Corp. if he wanted to, I think he sided with the Anbu early on instead. Opinions aside, I find it quite funny how 'they' have a right to order him around, but he showcase how their 'position' affects him when he stops them in their tracks.
But of course, they have a higher rank then him in some unnamed caste system I suppose.
Honestly I don't think so. The Police Chief, or the Clan Leader is the one in charge with regulating Clan actions. I don't really see anything that showcases some kind of ruling system within the Clan.
I'm pretty sure it's valid.
Then why act as if they are in bold? It doesn't really matter who did more, it's just that we know they both did it together. It should be logical that they both put out at least equal shares in the long run, even if Tobi were to have a hundred more, Itachi wouldn't lag behind either.
Strained MS or not, Itachi is a far better Shinobi than most.
Even Itachi's parents knew some shit was going down and waited to be slaughtered.
Well it's interesting nevertheless, despite my idea of legitimacy.
But that's kind of the argument I don't understand. Both Obito and Itachi worked together to destroy the entire Clan. Why is there even an argument about this anyway if we know that fact?
Not entirely. I said that it's impossible to deny that Itachi had to face children in his path.
The problem is:
> Obito wasn't speaking on everyone he killed, he was showing Sasuke how important he was to Itachi. Hence the reason why everyone he brought up more or less had some kind of connection to Itachi.
> Obito doesn't state who he killed. He doesn't say "and I killed the rest", in fact the Manga clearly implies that they worked together on this.
I could go on with my points, but it doesn't matter.
> It said shinobi from different nations if I remember correctly.
> Trying to remember when I tried to cast Itachi as immoral. Despite the Manga showcasing his character is slightly uncoordinated with his actions.
> Don't believe I said he killed them himself.
Yeah I'm not going to take this comment seriously when using the Novels to back up a point.
Claymantan
Active member
Why does it matter who killed who? Even if Itachi didn't directly kill children himself, he still knew children were going to die. His deal with Danzo was specifically that this would be the only way he could save Sasuke. That necessarily means he knew that the outcome of this whole ordeal was dead kids. He participated in a genocide with full knowledge that it would be a genocide. That's only marginally less worse than having actually massacred every single living thing in the village.
I understand that some people think that specifically targeting kids is a whole separate beast from killing their parents and leaving them to have their heads Kamui'd off by a masked murderer, but what matters is that Itachi doesn't make any such distinction. He views his complicity singularly, and doesn't gradate it based on how bad his discrete actions during the massacre were. The most important thing about the Uchiha Clan Massacre and those who designed or participated in it was that it was a massacre.
Itachi is no more nor less redeemable if he had actually killed kids during the massacre that led to them all being killed off anyway.
I should add that I'm not condemning him for participating in the massacre, as that's a whole separate debate. I'm just saying that the particular details of what he actually did during it don't matter in the narrative nor do they really matter logically.
By this same token, everyone who participates in those shinobi wars is equally complicit, because there's no way they don't know they're all signing up to kill kids. Maybe you wanna make distinctions based on self-defense and who started the war - fair enough - but they're still all fully aware of what they're getting into.
We should base our judgments on who acted to change the system, or would have. That's every Hokage except for Hiruzen (or like, Tsunade?).
I understand that some people think that specifically targeting kids is a whole separate beast from killing their parents and leaving them to have their heads Kamui'd off by a masked murderer, but what matters is that Itachi doesn't make any such distinction. He views his complicity singularly, and doesn't gradate it based on how bad his discrete actions during the massacre were. The most important thing about the Uchiha Clan Massacre and those who designed or participated in it was that it was a massacre.
Itachi is no more nor less redeemable if he had actually killed kids during the massacre that led to them all being killed off anyway.
I should add that I'm not condemning him for participating in the massacre, as that's a whole separate debate. I'm just saying that the particular details of what he actually did during it don't matter in the narrative nor do they really matter logically.
By this same token, everyone who participates in those shinobi wars is equally complicit, because there's no way they don't know they're all signing up to kill kids. Maybe you wanna make distinctions based on self-defense and who started the war - fair enough - but they're still all fully aware of what they're getting into.
We should base our judgments on who acted to change the system, or would have. That's every Hokage except for Hiruzen (or like, Tsunade?).
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Well, then I guess we're continuing.
This was before he had ever even given intel on them as he doesn't inform Hiruzen and co. about the coup until he's 13.
Police Force members said in a part one chapter that Itachi considered Shisui a true brother. Check.
His parents are by default a close connection and evidently the strain he had with his father was a burden on him. Check.
We see him interact with several Police Force members and we know the organization thought on a collective sense, otherwise people would have sided with Itachi as he voiced complaints at meetings or sympathized with his disinterest in the coup.
I mentioned that the gf point was void as just the mention alone denotes an emotional connection (just like friends, parents, etc). Superiors, does not.
Superiors are not important, once again. There is no emotional connection there.
This also contradicts the statement of all these people had a connection with Itachi. Itachi regretted that he had to kill the Police Force members but he didn't feel an emotional connection like he did with his best friend, and parents and possibly gf.
Once again, Tobi was just mentioning who he killed. Nothing more, nothing less.
>They decided Itachi was a traitor because he did not agree- they did this when they had no evidence of him leaking info, they sent Shisui after him because Itachi was the only Uchiha known to have a differing opinion.
>They were dodging the point. They came there to show the suicide note, then did not have the guts to say they had Itachi as the prime suspect? Itachi had to call them out on it haha.
>They ridiculed Shisui's choice when they said it would be silly to give up all that he had with the clan.
It was pathetic.
Your teachers at school do. Your boss at work and any employees supervising you do (if you have a job).
For Itachi, he's in the Uchiha clan. His dad is the leader and the people directly under him are the Police Force members. But, Itachi has to go to clan meetings, discuss the coup, etc. They have the authority to give him orders (whether Itachi takes them or not is irrelevant), that's all that matters- they are considered superiors.
If he saw children/elderly/women/etc, he could knock them out with genjutsu and leave them for Obito to go in line with what Obito mentioned that Itachi killed.
Obito mentioned who Itachi killed. It's about half the clan. It makes sense that Obito did the rest and is the only reasonable answer as it is the only one available by default, minus speculation.
>Picking up the role of the villain due to circumstance and to keep someone sane with a purpose does that.
By default, its the Police Force as a whole as those are superiors. He's bringing up who Itachi killed. Why differentiate between some superiors Itachi is supposedly close to in contrast to the other ones? I doubt he was doing that.
No, he didn't agree with the coup at meetings, they thought this was strange. They didn't trust him since he joined Anbu at age 10/11. They admit to having sent Shisui to spy on him:
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This was before he had ever even given intel on them as he doesn't inform Hiruzen and co. about the coup until he's 13.
He has interaction/mention/flashback with all of them bar the gf.
Police Force members said in a part one chapter that Itachi considered Shisui a true brother. Check.
His parents are by default a close connection and evidently the strain he had with his father was a burden on him. Check.
We see him interact with several Police Force members and we know the organization thought on a collective sense, otherwise people would have sided with Itachi as he voiced complaints at meetings or sympathized with his disinterest in the coup.
I mentioned that the gf point was void as just the mention alone denotes an emotional connection (just like friends, parents, etc). Superiors, does not.
Obito says "He killed..." Yes, this means he killed only these.
Superiors are not important, once again. There is no emotional connection there.
This would only have merit if he had a choice as to whether or not they died. He did not. Just if he did it himself or not. In this situation which Kishimoto created, Itachi's actions ironically push the peace-lover statement as the actions are the only path Itachi has to preventing further destruction.
No, as in your previous statement you said he killed everyone bar Sasuke without remorse. I was just showing he felt sad when Shisui basically did assisted suicide and he was bawling like a baby when he killed his parents. It contradicted your statement.
This also contradicts the statement of all these people had a connection with Itachi. Itachi regretted that he had to kill the Police Force members but he didn't feel an emotional connection like he did with his best friend, and parents and possibly gf.
Once again, Tobi was just mentioning who he killed. Nothing more, nothing less.
It would follow he didn't have close ties to the 50% composition of the Police Force (aside from his parents) then.
No, it was obnoxious.
>They decided Itachi was a traitor because he did not agree- they did this when they had no evidence of him leaking info, they sent Shisui after him because Itachi was the only Uchiha known to have a differing opinion.
>They were dodging the point. They came there to show the suicide note, then did not have the guts to say they had Itachi as the prime suspect? Itachi had to call them out on it haha.
>They ridiculed Shisui's choice when they said it would be silly to give up all that he had with the clan.
It was pathetic.
The entire reason he wasn't in the Police Corp was because his dad made him join Anbu instead. He didn't really side with the organization on his own accord initially.
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Indra. Anyone in real life who is older than you and has the authority to tell you to do something is your superior.
Your teachers at school do. Your boss at work and any employees supervising you do (if you have a job).
For Itachi, he's in the Uchiha clan. His dad is the leader and the people directly under him are the Police Force members. But, Itachi has to go to clan meetings, discuss the coup, etc. They have the authority to give him orders (whether Itachi takes them or not is irrelevant), that's all that matters- they are considered superiors.
Nope. Nope. Nope.
They did do an equal share. Itachi did half the clan, Obito did half. Itachi's was composed of who Obito said while Obito's was the rest.
But, he doesn't have mass destruction capabilities at this point in time. Not to take down half a compound if the people are spread out, but it makes sense if they're chilling at the headquarters or are in a limited section like the Police Force would be.
They knew long before because they knew what type of person Itachi was. Fugaku/Mikoto sided with the coup not because it was right but because they felt the majority wanted it and thus they felt obligated due to their positions to follow through. They knew Itachi cared for both sides though, hence why they were waiting and have to urge him to kill him while saying he's a gentle child- they understand why he did it though they might not understand the philosophy of self-sacrifice to such a degree or deem it worth it. They only knew because of that. Not because of commotion. No one else was ready or expecting it that night.
Well, there is no argument over that. We're just going in circles over a manga scan debating over whether Itachi killed more than what Obito stated or not. lmao
Not necessarily. If the Police Force was at a meeting that night, Itachi would only have to go to that building and a few other houses.
If he saw children/elderly/women/etc, he could knock them out with genjutsu and leave them for Obito to go in line with what Obito mentioned that Itachi killed.
The superiors still don't have a connection, not at all. So, once again- this point is void.
He's discussing Itachi, not himself. He's not going to go into details about what he did that night as that would be completely random in terms of what they were discussing.
Obito mentioned who Itachi killed. It's about half the clan. It makes sense that Obito did the rest and is the only reasonable answer as it is the only one available by default, minus speculation.
>It never specifies. Just says they were targeted and eradicated during the war era. Nations were not even unified then and it was a brutal time.
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>Picking up the role of the villain due to circumstance and to keep someone sane with a purpose does that.
That's what we've been debating this entire time, mate. We know they died, we're discussing if Itachi killed any directly or not. The manga makes it look he did not and you are trying to distort the statement into something else. It's half the clan, it's reasonable, it fits.
Okay, suit yourself.
Shinobies kill that's what they do as it is shonen not shown in detail that's all. Minato was a mass murderer he killed countless shinobi as a part of duty. Yeah Itachi massacred so Hiruzen can remain a saint in konoha's eyes.
WalksInShadows
Active member
shinobi kill, but there's a world of difference between killing somebody in a combat scenario and murdering civilians. Minato's kills weren't ever stated to have gone anywhere further than killing an enemy soldier, so it hardly makes him a murderer.
Uchihas are civilians don't think so they are ninjas. top of all if Itachi didn't kill them, the anbu will do it anyway only difference is this time uchiha will be annihilated officially with a reason of coup detat along with sasuke among them as danzo told to Itachi. Top of that this situation can be regarded as war as both sides are ready to attack each other secretly.
