[Discussion] Mihawk is not Yonko level

[Apêx1]

I don't really agree wtih Jozu and Vista being admirals, maybe close but still not on that level.

I didn't mean they were completely admiral qualified, but Jozu did very well in keeping up and Vista did well against Mihawk. At least very high diff for any of their opponents at Marineford. When you look at their leader though, it's always on a completely different level. Marco and WB are in different leagues. Shanks and Ben Beckman are in different leagues. Sabo and Dragon are in different leagues. So on so forth, so them being around admiral level indicates Yonko>Admirals.

Akainu already pushed WB to mid-high diff. That's same guy who holds title of the strongest. IMO Shanks would come as second and than Big Mom or Kaido. Shanks would push WB to high diff, so I see pre time-skip Akainu as little below Shanks in power but around as strong as BM and Kaido.

Yea, but I'd assume pre-time skip being slightly lower than Shanks would become an equal or still slightly beneath Shanks post time-skip. Akainu pushed him to mid-high diff due to; Seizure, betrayed wound, age, unknown illness. Sengoku implies a prime WB could've taken them all on and won that war. Notice that he himself is included, showing the real difference in power. Yonko cannot possibly be so far from WB as to lose to admirals when you have a guy who without illness and betrayal casually mid-diff'ing Admirals. At the very least the other Yonko high-very high diff them, though I'd suspect high diff. Kaido could be stronger than Shanks, we don't know. Humans are creatures and he's the strongest creature, so that could mean something.

Both Aokiji and Kizaru don't seems to be so serious at MF. Aokiji was candidate to FA so I believe he was already a Yonko level. Kizaru on the other hand wasn't so I believe he was weaker than them. Either way I would rank Yonkos + Admirals something like this:

WB > Shanks > Akainu >/= BM/Kaido >/= Aokiji > Kizaru

Akoji seems rather serious to me, and Kizaru never seems serious, even when he's getting cut by Rayleigh. I doubt Akoji was Yonko level when he wasn't much different than Jozu, so nope. You can't possibly believe that WB's crew can take on Yonko's, that's absurd. I know there's a strength difference, but come on..

I somewhat agree; WB>Shanks=Kaido>Akainu>Big Mom=Akoji=Kizaru, and I'm being generous here.

We never saw Mihawk using haki, but chances of his not having it are low. Never back down was just before he left Luffy's town but he got there 1 year before, many things can happen in meantime.

True, but it's assertable that if he kept up with a Haki user like Shanks, he can use Haki himself. Again, it could be true, but it's baseless conjecture.

Just by loosing an arm Shanks was put in disadvantage. Assuming that they were equals before that, Shanks after loss of an arm, got weaker, that would make him weaker than Mihawk.

So from that point, Shanks needed to get a lot more stronger and Mihawk to get just little stronger or not even got stronger for Shanks to surprise him.

That's flawed logic. We don't know how much they have improved since then. We don't know the difference in their abilities' potential. You have someone like Fujitora who posses massive potential and then someone like Crocodile who can only do so much with his DF. Same applies for their fighting capabilities and Haki. You can have someone use a massively complex fighting style and someone with a simple fighting style, the complex fighting style can clearly be improved far more than the simple fighting style. Same applies here, not to mention Shank's Haki could've been improving constantly since then, we really don't know, but there's no reason to assume that if said person loses eye/arm/leg, then said person is weaker than someone he stalemated many years ago.

Marco is First Mate of WB pirates.

He isn't his first mate, it was never stated, he is simply the first division commander. I have no reason to believe he was his first mate simply because they were the closest, as you evidently don't need a first mate in your crew.

 

[Gintõki1]

Mihawk is at the level of a captain holding the Yonko title.

He just isn't a pirate so he is not considered a Yonko. And he is already holding a title as war lord so he can't be both.

Pretty much what he said.

 

[A v i]

Kizaru beats Mihawk with moderate difficulty if he's not trolling

Not in OP manga.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Yea, but I'd assume pre-time skip being slightly lower than Shanks would become an equal or still slightly beneath Shanks post time-skip. Akainu pushed him to mid-high diff due to; Seizure, betrayed wound, age, unknown illness. Sengoku implies a prime WB could've taken them all on and won that war. Notice that he himself is included, showing the real difference in power. Yonko cannot possibly be so far from WB as to lose to admirals when you have a guy who without illness and betrayal casually mid-diff'ing Admirals. At the very least the other Yonko high-very high diff them, though I'd suspect high diff. Kaido could be stronger than Shanks, we don't know. Humans are creatures and he's the strongest creature, so that could mean something.

Wb with age was still holder of title Strongest Man in the world, it's still not just that Akainu pushed him mid-high diff, but he also was more or less fine after their battle.

Prime WB is not holder of title Strongest Man in the World, but Old WB is. Prime WB is on complete other level of power.

If Kaido is strongest he would be "Man" and not "Creature". Creature are usually use when refering to animal, which say that he is strongest Zoan user.

Akoji seems rather serious to me, and Kizaru never seems serious, even when he's getting cut by Rayleigh. I doubt Akoji was Yonko level when he wasn't much different than Jozu, so nope. You can't possibly believe that WB's crew can take on Yonko's, that's absurd. I know there's a strength difference, but come on..

I somewhat agree; WB>Shanks=Kaido>Akainu>Big Mom=Akoji=Kizaru, and I'm being generous here.

If Aokiji was rather serious at that time, going by feats, I would rank him being the lowest out of all Admirals, if anything I would say that he is well above Kizaru. But we know that it's not true considering that he pushed Akainu to extrem. high diff.

WB Pirates were strongest pirates around, they can take any Yonko crew.

True, but it's assertable that if he kept up with a Haki user like Shanks, he can use Haki himself. Again, it could be true, but it's baseless conjecture.

I never said it's not speculation, we never saw Shanks and Mihawk going serious, so all is up to speculation.

That's flawed logic. We don't know how much they have improved since then. We don't know the difference in their abilities' potential. You have someone like Fujitora who posses massive potential and then someone like Crocodile who can only do so much with his DF. Same applies for their fighting capabilities and Haki. You can have someone use a massively complex fighting style and someone with a simple fighting style, the complex fighting style can clearly be improved far more than the simple fighting style. Same applies here, not to mention Shank's Haki could've been improving constantly since then, we really don't know, but there's no reason to assume that if said person loses eye/arm/leg, then said person is weaker than someone he stalemated many years ago.

If Shanks' potential was greater than Mihawk's than Mihawk would never be close to Shanks' level of power.

He isn't his first mate, it was never stated, he is simply the first division commander. I have no reason to believe he was his first mate simply because they were the closest, as you evidently don't need a first mate in your crew.

He is de facto First Mate just like Zoro is for SH Pirates.

He is second strongest member which is alone good reason to say that, not to mention that they are closest.

 

[Apêx1]

Wb with age was still holder of title Strongest Man in the world, it's still not just that Akainu pushed him mid-high diff, but he also was more or less fine after their battle.

Prime WB is not holder of title Strongest Man in the World, but Old WB is. Prime WB is on complete other level of power.

If Kaido is strongest he would be "Man" and not "Creature". Creature are usually use when refering to animal, which say that he is strongest Zoan user.

We don't know if that's just a title from the past or if he was still the strongest, Buggy was clearly referring to the past and Sengoku saying he can take them all was referring to his past self, since his current self couldn't do so.

No, creature is everything, man, ape, gorilla, dragon, etc. He's the strongest creature refers to everything, not one specific specie, though the Zoan is obvious.

If Aokiji was rather serious at that time, going by feats, I would rank him being the lowest out of all Admirals, if anything I would say that he is well above Kizaru. But we know that it's not true considering that he pushed Akainu to extrem. high diff.

WB Pirates were strongest pirates around, they can take any Yonko crew.

No no no, Akoji isn't the lowest out of the admirals at all. He stalemated Akainu for 10 days despite a disadvantageous DF, meaning Jozu is just that strong. Akoji is likely equal to Kizaru if you go by creative thinking and implicate his light DF. So no, that's not how it works because nothing confirms he was holding back, and nothing implies he's weak, only because Jozu was keeping up. All that indicates is Jozu being strong.

WB's crew without WB can do that? Not a chance dude.. You can't seriously believe his crew is on par with a Yonko, it's absurd.

I never said it's not speculation, we never saw Shanks and Mihawk going serious, so all is up to speculation.

Yes, but no reason to make speculation seem objective.

If Shanks' potential was greater than Mihawk's than Mihawk would never be close to Shanks' level of power.

Potential isn't a measure of fighting power, it's a measure of growth in fighting power.

He is de facto First Mate just like Zoro is for SH Pirates.

He is second strongest member which is alone good reason to say that, not to mention that they are closest.

Zoro isn't the first mate and neither is Marco the first mate of WB, no matter how you put it. Yes, he's the closest. Does that make him First mate? Nope.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1. Why would Oda goes to all the trouble and make him Strongest man so that he can just destroy his hype later? Also, if he wasn't strongest man at that time, why title wasn't transfered to trylu strongest guy.

2. Why he wouldn't be "Man" just like WB, instead of being Creature. Also the moment Law mention his title, Nami commented "so he is not human?" Which indicate that title apply to Zoan.

3. Why Kizaru wasn't candidate but Aokiji and Akainu were?

4. I never said that WB Pirates without WB is strong as Yonko crew, but I could likely see that happaning. None crew showed so much powerful members, not to mention that they are by numbers largest crew around.

5. When did I done that? If anything you first brought point of Shanks being not equal to Mihawk..

6. Shanks and Mihawk were alredy very matured persons when Shanks had his arm, both of them very pirates for longer than decade and Shanks was alredy pirate from a Grand Line (possible even from the New World), his measure of growth should already be used (good deal of it).

7. Yes, it does. Zoro was hinted to be First Mate, by Urouge and Bartolomeo. Marco after WB's death was by Gorosei said that he can stop BB. It was said "Marco and WB Pirates" so why do you think they said Marco and WB Pirates and not just WB Pirates?

 

[Love Cook]

Marco is First Mate of WB pirates.

That's false,

there are very few first mates in One Piece, and Marco is not one of them. Such a structure is usefull for big crews but who go to the process of appointing someone who is second in command. They're pirates and most of them shit on bureaucracy and hierarchy. If the captain falls the next person will stand up. If you would appoint certain people to lead the rest might not obey and the ship would fall in anarchy. When Ace became division commander he was concerned that Teach wouldn't approve since he was there longer.

So not all crews have a first mate, especially for the smaller ones it's useless. And then there are also crews with different structures like divisions.

All first mates in One Piece can be found here:

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[jiraiya lives]

All the admirals can fight with Shanks for a long period of time. Shanks is not Whitebeard, he isn't beating any admiral less than high diff. Especially Kizaru is seriously nerfed in the manga, he's by far the fastest character and has incredibly powerful long range and short range attacks. Aokiji can freeze a tsunami or part of the sea in an instant. And Akainu is Akainu

Just because Mihawk spurred with Shanks doesn't mean he's yonko level. If he was then he would be a yonko himself. Mihawk is admiral level, and all admirals can push the yonko to high diff 1 on 1

In short, you're not yonko level unless you're a yonko

How come?

Just because you're not a Yonkou doesn't mean you can't be yonkou level. That's like saying only VA's can be VA level. I agree tho that Mihawk isn't admiral level, Imo he's in what I call "the Gap"..Which is a small level between admiral and Yonkou. Imo people who are on this level are Mihawk, Akainu, Aokiji, Prime Reyliegh, garp...


Plus we don't even know the range of Yonkou level and how strong the weakest Yonkou is compared to the strongest. BB was easily the weakest Yonkou when he became one most likely..Do you honestly believe that only the Yonkou's could take down that BB? Mihawk, any admiral, sengoku, garp, reyliegh, beckman, possibly Doflamingo would all defeated that BB...Yet you claim they aren't yonkou level since they aren't "Yonkou"..smh

Also Mihawk isn't a yonkou because he isn't even a "true" pirate anymore he works for the Govt. He probably could of been a Yonkou though based on power just like how Garp could of been an Admiral but Turned the position down.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

That's false,

there are very few first mates in One Piece, and Marco is not one of them. Such a structure is usefull for big crews but who go to the process of appointing someone who is second in command. They're pirates and most of them shit on bureaucracy and hierarchy. If the captain falls the next person will stand up. If you would appoint certain people to lead the rest might not obey and the ship would fall in anarchy. When Ace became division commander he was concerned that Teach wouldn't approve since he was there longer.

So not all crews have a first mate, especially for the smaller ones it's useless. And then there are also crews with different structures like divisions.

All first mates in One Piece can be found here:

You must be registered for see links

It seems you missed my next post, when I said de facto First mate.

 

[sravan]

admirals are below yonkos.
i saw someone saying something about akainu vs WB fight.WB was sick and near to death and he fought with two admirals already and he had a sword pierced in his chest by squalo even then sengoku feared that he may destroy marineford completely.He punched akainu like he is a fodder in that condition.
I believe mihawk is pretty close to yonko level & he is above admiral level.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

admirals are below yonkos.
i saw someone saying something about akainu vs WB fight.WB was sick and near to death and he fought with two admirals already and he had a sword pierced in his chest by squalo even then sengoku feared that he may destroy marineford completely.He punched akainu like he is a fodder in that condition.
I believe mihawk is pretty close to yonko level & he is above admiral level.

I put Mihawk on admiral level because there's no intermediate title between Yonko and Admiral. And Kizaru and Aokiji are as strong as mihawk by feats imo

 

[Apêx1]

1. Why would Oda goes to all the trouble and make him Strongest man so that he can just destroy his hype later? Also, if he wasn't strongest man at that time, why title wasn't transfered to trylu strongest guy.

2. Why he wouldn't be "Man" just like WB, instead of being Creature. Also the moment Law mention his title, Nami commented "so he is not human?" Which indicate that title apply to Zoan.

3. Why Kizaru wasn't candidate but Aokiji and Akainu were?

4. I never said that WB Pirates without WB is strong as Yonko crew, but I could likely see that happaning. None crew showed so much powerful members, not to mention that they are by numbers largest crew around.

5. When did I done that? If anything you first brought point of Shanks being not equal to Mihawk..

6. Shanks and Mihawk were alredy very matured persons when Shanks had his arm, both of them very pirates for longer than decade and Shanks was alredy pirate from a Grand Line (possible even from the New World), his measure of growth should already be used (good deal of it).

7. Yes, it does. Zoro was hinted to be First Mate, by Urouge and Bartolomeo. Marco after WB's death was by Gorosei said that he can stop BB. It was said "Marco and WB Pirates" so why do you think they said Marco and WB Pirates and not just WB Pirates?

1. Well it hasn't transferred to anyone now either, so I don't know what you mean. Not to mention Kaido's title of strongest ceature could mean he's the strongest person, while WB is the strongest, making it seem like a title of the past. He didn't destroy his hype, if anything that hypes his prime self even more.

2. Because he's a Zoan type, but it didn't say the "animal" or the "zoan" it said the creature, meaning humans too.

3. Because he didn't choose to fight, or because he simply didn't want to be fleet Admiral. Garp is vice admiral, does that mean he's weaker than FA or admiral? Nope.

4. Matters not, if he was that strong then why would Kaido try to attack WB himself? I'm rather sure Shanks could breach his ship with his CoC alone. A Yonko without his crew gets beaten by another Yonko, that will never change.

5. You claimed since Shanks lost his arm, it's become Mihawk>Shanks, so I disproved.

6. That's conjecture, as I said potential varies from person to person, and nothing implies Haki has a limit to its progression.

7. Chapter 499 was a mistranslation, the raw says 副船長, which means "second member" and not First Mate. He's never been stated to be first mate, so it remains so, not to mention it is off topic as Marco himself isn't first mate as you said he is. Well I don't really care, as long as they didn't say he's first mate, you can't prove it, so he isn't first mate.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1. How do you know that title wasn't trasfered to another? Best Swordsman can be, why would there be a difference with this.

2. If anything, when Law mentioned his title, Nami/Franky said: "So, he is not human?", which actually further my point here that he is strongest zoan.

3. That's not true, you can't choose not to fight. You are either candidate or you are not. And he wasn't. Case with Garp is different, Garp didn't wanted to become Admiral but he could.

4. He could pretty much underestimate WB. Ace did that too. What do you want to say with "A Yonko without his crew gets beaten by another Yonko, that will never change."?

5. The moment Shanks lost his arm, he was put in disadvatage, that alone reduced his swordmanship, and martial art.

6. It varies, but if Shanks was talented more than Mihawk, he would be stronger even in their duels (But that was never stated). I don't see why would his potential come out at age of 35 and not in age of 26. When we know that Shanks was pirate and trained for like a decade before coming to Luffy's town.

7. What you posted say First Mate. Marco is de facto first mate of WB Pirates, you are just fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world.
Shanks is a swordsman.
Shanks is a Yonko.
Therefore, Mihawk>at least one of the Yonko

 

[Hexuze]

They are on another level. WB was clearly on another league had he not been betrayed/old ass mofo. Doflamingo said he'd rather fight an admiral than Big Mom. Shanks stopped Akainu's punch with ease, had Akainu and BB back the fúck away, he clashed with WB. Kaido is supposed to be the strongest creature, and humans are creature's, so his power is clearly massive as well. Has massive hype. BB is likely the FV of OP if gets both his DF's mastered, so that speaks for itself as well. I don't see how you can deny this imo, it's clear Yonko are much more powerful than admirals by hype and portrayal.

Nope, even if he didn't get stabbed, he would of won either high-diff. or extreme-diff. Only people that are PK level are in another tier than the admirals. Yonko captains are stronger but only by a small margin. I'm not denying that but they aren't on another league. Only a PK tier can mid-diff. an admiral , that's what you call someone on another league. Think of it this way, Zoro is slightly stronger than Sanji, right? Does that mean Zoro is on a different league than Sanji? No.

 

[Apêx1]

Nope, even if he didn't get stabbed, he would of won either high-diff. or extreme-diff. Only people that are PK level are in another tier than the admirals. Yonko captains are stronger but only by a small margin. I'm not denying that but they aren't on another league. Only a PK tier can mid-diff. an admiral , that's what you call someone on another league. Think of it this way, Zoro is slightly stronger than Sanji, right? Does that mean Zoro is on a different league than Sanji? No.

What?.. He still smashed Akainu despite a magma punch through his chest, a heart attack many gun wounds, lost half his face, stab wounds, etc. Had they fought from the start Akainu would've gotten mid-high diff'd and that's still a WB on death's door due to age and terminal illness. I disagree, a non-ill WB still mid diff's any Marine bar Garp, even Marco and Jozu where stalemating marines, and these two are merely his commanders. Akainu inflicted damage mid-seizure [

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], WB was casually blocking Akainu's normal attacks and smashed Akainu's face in twice while half his face was inexistent. Start of Marinford WB vs start of Marinford Akainu, WB wins mid-high diff at most, non-ill and aged WB takes a big shit on Akainu. Other Yonkou's either mid-high diff or high diff, I agree with that (apart from EoS BB, he'll probably low diff.)

 

[Love Cook]

Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world.
Shanks is a swordsman.
Shanks is a Yonko.
Therefore, Mihawk>at least one of the Yonko

You don't know if Shanks is a swordsman, there are people who fight with a sword who still don't qualify as a swordsman.

Blackbeard also has used a sword and he has three guns but also two devil fruits and his punches will break your neck and most likely has awesome haki. Is he also a swordsman or is he a gunner, or is he whatever comes in handy for the argument.

In One Piece there is a special breed of people who call themselves swordsman, and take pride in doing that. Zoro, Kin'nemon, Tashigi, Mihawk are all swords(wo)men, but I don't you can qualify people like Law, Blackbeard and Arlong like that.

There is a difference in training and honing your sword skills every day because that is your way of life and having a sword hanging from your belt and whipping it out when you need it.

It's also silly to think that the guy Luffy is trying to surpass is weaker than the guy Zoro wants to beat.

 

[Apêx1]

Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world.
Shanks is a swordsman.
Shanks is a Yonko.
Therefore, Mihawk>at least one of the Yonko

That would still put him above Fujitora and Rayleigh then, so Mihawk is above admiral level either way. We saw WB use his Bisento originally, only later on did we get to see his real powers. Shanks could very well be the same considering that was 12 years ago, and in 12 years time, many things can happen, he wasn't a Yonko before, for all we know he was a scrub (who couldn't knock out a sea beast with CoC), yet in that very same 12 year time-frame he became a Yonko. Something must've happened after meeting Rayleigh, who knows.

 

[Hexuze]

What?.. He still smashed Akainu despite a magma punch through his chest, a heart attack many gun wounds, lost half his face, stab wounds, etc. Had they fought from the start Akainu would've gotten mid-high diff'd and that's still a WB on death's door due to age and terminal illness. I disagree, a non-ill WB still mid diff's any Marine bar Garp, even Marco and Jozu where stalemating marines, and these two are merely his commanders. Akainu inflicted damage mid-seizure [

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], WB was casually blocking Akainu's normal attacks and smashed Akainu's face in twice while half his face was inexistent. Start of Marinford WB vs start of Marinford Akainu, WB wins mid-high diff at most, non-ill and aged WB takes a big shit on Akainu. Other Yonkou's either mid-high diff or high diff, I agree with that (apart from EoS BB, he'll probably low diff.)

... You're seriously underestimating the admirals. Despite WB catching Akainu off-guard & being enraged/blood-lust he still suffered serious injuries from Akainu. Akainu was still casually holding down WB's bisento with just one leg, same goes for Kizaru. EoS BB would low-diff. an admiral? That's quite the underestimation of the admirals strength. Admirals are getting mid-diff'd by PK tiers ( Prime WB/Roger/Harp/Dragon/Shanks/etc.) By that logic, EoS Luffy would low-diff. EoS Sanji/Zoro (admiral level)

 

[Apêx1]

... You're seriously underestimating the admirals. Despite WB catching Akainu off-guard & being enraged/blood-lust he still suffered serious injuries from Akainu. Akainu was still casually holding down WB's bisento with just one leg, same goes for Kizaru. EoS BB would low-diff. an admiral? That's quite the underestimation of the admirals strength. Admirals are getting mid-diff'd by PK tiers ( Prime WB/Roger/Harp/Dragon/Shanks/etc.) By that logic, EoS Luffy would low-diff. EoS Sanji/Zoro (admiral level)

Not necessarily underestimating their strength, though once could say so because I am putting the Yonkou's at a higher level, which in turn lowers the admirals. Yes, Akainu stopped WB's Bisento, but WB also completely stopped Akainu's attempted blitz. Most likely, if he has durability to tank Wb's attacks without much difficulty, has WB's DF, has his own Yami Yami no mi, I can't really see him being anything but that powerful, that is, if he has WB's proficiency with Gura Gura no mi (probable). EoS Zoro is probably prime Rayleigh level, just saying, and Luffy would be fighting someone else who low-diffs admirals (BB).