[VS] Mei, Gaara and Tsunade vs Ay and Onoki
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Medical Sage Tsunade
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Medical Sage Tsunade
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well, i can't change your opinion. If you think onoki survived 70+ years by being weaker than the other kages then Ok.
not really debating with her. Not even trying to convince anyone.
Medical Sage Tsunade
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70 years of what
Chiyo have 60 years over sakura and that doesn't mean shit she whoop her ass.
TheEvilOne
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Haha, what?
Onoki >/= Gaara
Onoki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tsunade
Onoki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mei
Prince Charles
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Except for the fact that Kabuto while controlling Muu-sama was still able to see partially[
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]. You're also not acknowledging the fact that Zabuza also had a water source ie the lake that he was standing on. Mei's executes her hidden mist differently from zabuzu where the mist actually comes from her mouth instead. Mei's has no water source here as seeing their is no lake which may have had played a factor in zabuza's super thick mist. The lake actually probably played a factor back in part 1 considering kakashi and other ninja in the alliance were still capable of fighting even when the mist was up[
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]. So as you can see Mei thickening the mist is possible but you get the point. Even even the raikage and onoki still have flight control. Not too mention Mei cant make the mist too thick or else it will also effect her team mates.He doesnt need to know where every single of the kage will be because a jinton on this scale[
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] will surely be able to take out a few of the kages regardless of the fact that onoki doesnt have his eye on each of the kages.Mei's lava isnt reaching Ay in mid sorry. Even if it did manage to I see no reason why Ay simply can't move out the way. Madara already moved out the way on ground from Mei's lava[
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]. The fact that you think the lava will even reach Ay in the sky let alone touch him with + his raiton is rather amusing.Really acid? The fact that Mei's lava have shown better speed feats in execution then katsuya's acid.. Yet you thnk her acid is reaching the Ay or onoki while in flight? Even manda inches from her evaded her acid[
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]. Ay has already shown the necessary speed feats to dodge those attacks from Mei and katsuya.You're saying they can pull off all these attacks.. How long do you think jinton takes to prepare?:|
Slap yourself. The goldem wont be so quickly to sink. The golem is wide and bigger than the width and size of the sanddoom[
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][
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]. The sandoom will not immediately sink the goldem as you think when you take in factor of the weight of the golem.Chidori isnt the only form of piercing. Ay has already shown high voltage raiton base attacks through his palms[
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]. Saying his attacks have no penetration is bull shit. Slap yourself again, the kages staying in the sand dome leave them vulnerable to a low level form of jinton.Don't underestimate his chakra reserves. And if thats the case than he would stick to low level forms of jinton to portion out the use of his chakra.
I already gave my thoughts on the hidden mist so I will not dwell on that topic.
Dont underestimate Ay's speed when even chunin exam sasuke evaded the sand clones[
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][
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]. Not too mention he easily destroyed when the sand clone started to attach it self to sasuke[
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]. Nice job trying to underrate Ay but it won't work here.His sensor sand only works when the enemy is touching and in the sand[
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]. That tactic isnt working here when both Ay and onoki can fly. It would not kill him. The man chopped off his arm, showing no emotion.:| He isnt blitzing through boiling release? smack yourself. Boil release is only truly effective when it its directly focused on the user and on them for a while. You're saying with his speed he wont be able to go through the boil mist? His body is durable. His skin may peel at max but that's it.
Your not getting it. Once Ay hits gaara he is decapitated. Katsuya isnt bring back the dead. I already proved how Ay's body is durable and he has a high tolerance to pain. Ay's crushes the sand dome with his raiton horizontal chop added with the bonus of onoki making him stronger.
Thank you for stating the obvious.. Of course he can't spam jinton. She isnt healing her team when Ay is blitzing around of with horizontal chops and decapitating. I already gave a valuable counter to katsuya her movements but making her weight heaver.
You must be a clown if you think shes simply going to destroy the golems with a punch. You obviously underestimate the durability of the golems asthey were able to tank a explosive from deidara[
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]. And that one was a ant compared to the larger one that onoki has shown against madara.Her primary support role here is healing gaara and Mei and maybe taking on some golems. You're not taking into account for Ay's speed when even tsunade herself was surprised the naruto while in kCM mode was able to keep up with Ay.
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Ay's speed plays a main role here added with onoki lightening him its a stomp. I assure you if Gaara doesnt get one shotted Mei will.
Again you're taking into account onoki and his counters again Gaara sand. His can easily make the surrounding sand heavier which would mean gaara having more of a difficult time controlling and moving the sand.
Rude? You werent being rude?*_* nor disrespectful
I already gave my rebuttal to the hidden mist. Yet your not taking into consideration of how the mist will also effect tsunade and gaara. Ay's damage is lethal to people like gaara and Mei.
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One clean chop on Gaara or mei equals death. Katsuya isnt healing the dead.
:leaf: refer back to scan of kcm naruto saying his punch feels like it weighs a million pounds
You mean the same auto defense that fell victim to Lee's and chunin exams sasuke speed? OK. And smh sand armor really? His sand armor started crumbling after a clean hit from lee[
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][
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]:|As I said before mist is truly effective when the opponent is standing still. Sasukes ribcage sussano heavily melted quickly because it stayed in place taking the mist head on. That isnt the case where when my team can fly and Ay will be blitzing around not standing directing in the mist. Also regarding Gaara's eye it isnt keeping up with Ay. Possibly onoki.One fatal flaw in your 3rd eye argument is that you dont even take into account that the hidden mist may also will also effect it.
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gaara is the main factor in this fight as he allows his team to fly, and he is the only one on team 1 who can use consistent mid-long range attacks without too much chakra loss (Can't say the same for mei; tsunade literally has no offensive techniques, except for ground and pound).
as prince charles pointed out, a huge drawback of mei's acid and mist is that it also affects her team, hurting them and blinding them correspondingly.
onoki can use ultra heavyweight jutsu on the ground to prevent gaara from using the landscape as a weapon (this is possible because he used ultra lightweight jutsu on "the surrounding sand" in the latest anime episode). onoki doesnt even need to be in continuous contact with ay to allow him to fly, one touch is all that's needed.
a conical jinton (with a wide radius of effect, and only one panel of charge time) eventually kills mei or tsunade. through onoki's rock clones and ay's lightened v2 speed, gaara is overwhelmed and killed. ay and onoki high diff
as prince charles pointed out, a huge drawback of mei's acid and mist is that it also affects her team, hurting them and blinding them correspondingly.
onoki can use ultra heavyweight jutsu on the ground to prevent gaara from using the landscape as a weapon (this is possible because he used ultra lightweight jutsu on "the surrounding sand" in the latest anime episode). onoki doesnt even need to be in continuous contact with ay to allow him to fly, one touch is all that's needed.
a conical jinton (with a wide radius of effect, and only one panel of charge time) eventually kills mei or tsunade. through onoki's rock clones and ay's lightened v2 speed, gaara is overwhelmed and killed. ay and onoki high diff
@Prince charles. ah shit, i didn't know you responded. I'll read and respond to this tonight/late afternoon since it's saturday. I hope you didn't disappoint me 
lol
@Liath I'll let genii handle you seeing as his 2 lines already 1 shotted 1/3 of your entire arguement.
lol@Liath I'll let genii handle you seeing as his 2 lines already 1 shotted 1/3 of your entire arguement.
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TheEvilOne
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INTEL
Alright, First off, I'd like to make note of a few things which will help my post. You can also use this to aid yours as this works for the both of us, though i won't be adding your details here, of course.
The OP Has stated that there is manga knowledge. Now, Let us clarify what this entails:
Through the fights the kage's have head together or otherwise, they all have a fairly good idea of each others jutsu. Of course each individual kage won't know all this information themselves, but together they do. Intel is shared between team mates (see rubber guy and naruto Vs 3rd Raikage) to aid in victory.
Between Mei, tsunade, and Gaara they know that:
Ay
- He's extremely quick and packs a punch that is, though strong, not stronger than tsunade's.
- Ay becomes much faster during his V2 shushin than when he's in V1. But, he's not always moving at top speed.
- They know that his Raiton cloak provides some form of defensive boost but not that much.
- He can be
-He's exclusively( As far as we know by manga fact ) a Nin-taijutsu user. He only engages In CQC and uses high speed to both close the distance and deliver powerful attack.
Onoki
-He's an exceptional flier who's capable of earth jutsu and Particle style
-He has a set number of jinton he can use since he doesn't have limitless chakra
-He's capable of firing a jinton beam
-He has weighted rock jutsu which can make objects heavier, and weightless rock jutsu which make them lighter.
-His jinton disassembles matter so isn't possible to block as far as manga has shown so far.
-His jinton needs to charge
-His Rock jutsu*
*I don't want to list his earth jutsu since i don't want to give you ideas XD
Alright, First off, I'd like to make note of a few things which will help my post. You can also use this to aid yours as this works for the both of us, though i won't be adding your details here, of course.
The OP Has stated that there is manga knowledge. Now, Let us clarify what this entails:
Through the fights the kage's have head together or otherwise, they all have a fairly good idea of each others jutsu. Of course each individual kage won't know all this information themselves, but together they do. Intel is shared between team mates (see rubber guy and naruto Vs 3rd Raikage) to aid in victory.
Between Mei, tsunade, and Gaara they know that:
Ay
- He's extremely quick and packs a punch that is, though strong, not stronger than tsunade's.
- Ay becomes much faster during his V2 shushin than when he's in V1. But, he's not always moving at top speed.
- They know that his Raiton cloak provides some form of defensive boost but not that much.
- He can be
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. Though this may seem obvious, it's not true for everyone. Persons such as Gaara(auto sand at least), Minato and Muu have shown that is highly unlikely to catch them offguard.-He's exclusively( As far as we know by manga fact ) a Nin-taijutsu user. He only engages In CQC and uses high speed to both close the distance and deliver powerful attack.
Onoki
-He's an exceptional flier who's capable of earth jutsu and Particle style
-He has a set number of jinton he can use since he doesn't have limitless chakra
-He's capable of firing a jinton beam
-He has weighted rock jutsu which can make objects heavier, and weightless rock jutsu which make them lighter.
-His jinton disassembles matter so isn't possible to block as far as manga has shown so far.
-His jinton needs to charge
-His Rock jutsu*
*I don't want to list his earth jutsu since i don't want to give you ideas XD
Yes, I understand that Muu was able to see. But, like i said before that mist was not made exceptionally thick. There would have been no point in this. Let us not forget that zabuza had to use his Silent Killing Hunter methods to even find kakashi in that mist. Infact, Zabuza's eyes were
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, which tells of the level of completely blindness occuring in the mist. During the madara battle, since no one on the kage team (bar Gaara) has any form of sensing abilities, a mist of that level would have been completely to the detriment of the team. The best move was to use mist thick enough to hinder visibility to a few feet so that Ay's blitzing could work more effectively, thus, that is why Muu could
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(mid panel), but could see nothing beyond them; And, as
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scan shows, there weren't only 3 people in the area from which onoki and Ay left. Therefore, Vision was infact significantly hindered to just a few feet.
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scan further showing this through the fact that none of the background(or madara, from a top down view) was visible. From my previous hyperlink, we can see that the kage were standing near some mokuton, though now we can't see it. For Onoki and gaara to even possibly see my team (through this level of mist, at least) they would need to be within, at least, 15 feet of them. That's close enough to be 1 shot by Boil release. Finally, I would also like to point out something.
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In the first panel we see 5 shinobi just behind him while he's jumping from trees, but in the last panel we could see absolutely nothing anymore. Infact, Muu only made his way to the kages due to his
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. Muu has been stated as being a capable sensor, and the fact that he couldn't see more than 5 feet infront of him eliminates the possibilities that he got infront of madara through vision.Final Notes:
Oh, and let me just clarify one thing you said before I move on, "You're also not acknowledging the fact that Zabuza also had a water source ie the lake that he was standing on". Firstly, As i pointed out above, Mei's mist was indeed thick enough to limit visibility to a few feet at best, but more importantly. Zabuza's
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(which honestly looks like it has more visibility than mei's mist) happened on
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(Right side in top panel. Notice it's higher than the bridge the sailed under). His only water source was quite a few feet below him. So low, infact, that he never even resorted to any form of water jutsu; Not even mizu bushins. Method of Execution has nothing to do with it.
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during that Fight with SA; It would have been stupid seeing as he'd be the only person able to fight through it - Visibility was infact much better than even muu and MAdara had it. I''ll get to your last point later, but my plan was never for my team mates to see. Hence why I had them under maximum defence with gaara using sensor sand.
The problem with that jinton is that it would most likely kill oonoki(chakra loss) if he even used it. But, let's not forget that jinton has a charge time. Once oonoki begins to build up chakra, gaara can immediately begin to sense it and create a bushin substitution and run away with his team. This is an easy feat for gaara as he can not only make
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, but he's also a fast flier. Gaara's sand(though it was shukaku arm) kept up with deidara and deidara was fast enough to fly as fast as onoki. By the point that jinton begins to charge, gaara and his team are in a completely different spot, possibly even high above the ground while there's a fake version of theirs sitting behind as a feint. Saying onoki/ay would notice this is false as Mizukage never noticed the feint while standing infront of onoki looking at him the entire time, and onoki didn't notice muu's split.Anyway, that's more of my counter to a random jinton.
This is my counter to your massive jinton.
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.Your claim was that Ay is going to 'Guard Onoki' While he charges jinton. The sheer fact that you say ay will 'move out of the way' means he can't actually block onoki. Therefore, in order to use a jinton, onoki needs to not only charge the jinton, but avoid attacks himself while doing it. But i never claimed he couldn't dodge the lava, I was just listing attacks that Ay Can't Block without either taking damage, or onoki taking damage with him.
once again, I'm listing attacks he can't block. This my quote "Ay can't block any offensive attack coming to oonoki. ", and it's because of that i listed those attacks.
"You're saying they can pull off all these attacks.. How long do you think jinton takes to prepare?"
Long enough for obito to:
1) Warp to kamui dimension from where he was standing.
2) Warp out of kamui dimension to sasuke
3) Warp Sasuke into kamui dimension.
That's a significant amount of time considering we know that obito takes longer to warp himself than go intangible. Then, ontop of that delay, he takes even longer to
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along with himself(slightly shown
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by it even taking more than 1 panel to do). Before you try to imply that jinton onoki used on sasuke was instant, remember that this is manga slides, there's no good way of showing time delay. If it really was instant, Obito would never have had time to begin is kamui warp. This means that jinton is in no way instant and that between the time it takes to charge and to materialise, someone can have to substitute out of the way.Long enough for naruto to
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after his jinton was already charging
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naruto jumped from the sand. And, Don't even try to claim oonoki's jinton are faster than muu's (especially the big one) or else they wouldn't have
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midway; Oonoki's would have vaporized muu before muu finished charging if that were the case. *Please take not, also, that this was a jinton beam which is pretty much oonoki's strongest jinton.* Thus establishing that Oonoki's Jinton speed == Muu jinton speed = Not instantaneous like juubito's for the least.Long enough for akamichi to
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before the jinton fired off.Firstly, Why use Part 1 feats of gaara when he was not only out of chakra , but also only using it on a human sized opponent? Even in that fight he said 200 Meters; That's almost a quater mile and surely far deeper than the height of the golem. Once the golem starts to sink, it's already effectively slown down for the least, but anyway...
Instantly take down? Did i say that? I said he can trap the golem. By the sheer fact that they're flying alone, they can simply avoid the golem with flight. Otherwise, Sand Arms + Some sinking sand is enough to put a few feet of the golem underground to slow it's movements. Gaara is able to control
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much sand. He controls as much/more sand than his father and his father used sand to
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(I'm sure you'll try to say scan says he used it to stop shukaku blah blah blah, but you can't stop a bijuu without restraining) and The golem isn't as big as shukaku. Futhermore, this won't be a problem since he not only has tsunade to replenish chakra storage - so he can waste away his bijuu reserves as he pleases - but she can also
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his power so that doton oonoki throws at him can be overpowered effectively.Oppression Horizontal Chop is a
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, not a piercing attack. But, more importantly, raiton is not gaara's weakness, piercing/overwhelming strong attack are, just to name a few. Furthermore, for kishi to exemplify how resiliant gaara's sand is, he made 3rd raikage use his best raiton attack. Not, 4 finger nukite, or 3, but
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. If gaara's sand were easy to break through, or even weak to raiton for that matter, it would have simply crumbled to just raikage's raiton cloak, or raikage would have used his fist or 4 finger nukite at the least, and more importantly, it wouldn't stop raikage's
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- A slicing attack strong enough to slice through a few layers of sand. 3rd raikage's 3 finger nukite was already able to burst Rubber guy's wall. Notice how the thing that gaara's sand was actually weak to(gold and oil) made the sand crumble without doing a single thing - Mizukage simple had to stand there and let the sand's weakness(oil) defeat the sand, whereas raikage had to force his way through with a piercing attack boosted by the element best specialized in piercing.Your assumption that they're vulnerable to a low level jinton would only work if gaara weren't able to simply open out the back of the dome and fly his team to a better spot. The dome is infact one of their best defences, as not only do onoki and Ay not know if they're actually in it, gaara could, also, simply make a bunch of other domes as fakes (an easy feat with the chakra horse, tsunade, supplying you with chakra) to increase their safety from LolJintonGG.
Oh, and this is assuming they find them in that hidden mist which, as i showed above, allows 15-30 feet of visibilty at best. Feet which the can't be within due to that other persistant mist that would be around - Boil release: Skilled Mist technique.
Lava release, massive waves of sand, giant slug, massive water jutsu, all flying his way and he still needs to find and kill his opponents through all of that. How is he proportioning chakra? Not only does he need to use at least 1 jinton, he needs to use earth jutsu to defend himself as well. Saving chakra is a luxury he doesn't have.
oonoki can use
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(give or take a few since these craters could be from either him or muu) jinton, along with 1 mizubushin jutsu before being
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. Then, only able to use 1 aggravated rock technique, and 1 super lightweight rock technique thereafterAnd, seeing as each of those jinton were not
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, it isn't too difficult to dodge them especially when you're already shrouded by mist and possess gaara and his quick substitutions and flying speed.In short, you have 9 attempts and 3 sub par jutsu before your main powerhouse is panting on the floor making this a 3v1.
I added to my hidden mist arguement above so i won't respond here again.
I'm not going to deny that ay can dodge gaara's sand but Between massive suiton, lava, sand drizzles and slug acid, ay can be distracted( as i mentioned in intel) long enough to be snuck up on by a sand attack. Especially considering gaara's sand was fast enough to block one of his V1 drop kicks.
I'm not underestimating ay considering his sand was able to hold
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, and hold mizukage[
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][
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]. That part 1 chunnin exam feat is nothing compared to WW Gaara.Why won't it work? His sand can be anywhere he pleases. Ay and oonoki moves, he moves the sand particles with them. not like onoki is going to jinton every grain of sand out of the sky.
Once again, At least use Part 2 references of these exact same feats. I'm not arguing for kid gaara, there are part 2 versions, such as the one where sand particles are actually
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Dude wtf? This paragraph is literally like you're telling me that kisame can swim through lava because he's too fast to get burnt. Like are you for real? Because he cut off his arm and told she to
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, he's blitzing tthrough acid? Rofl, who's going to stop the full body bleeding then? You clearly underestimate the power of acid that melted concrete.
Sand Armor + healing + sitting in katsuya bruh. Lee smashed Gaara around at eye watering speeds and gaara stood up a minute later like he just got a love pat on the face. I won't refute that a super aggraveted rock: Horizontal chop has a high likely hood of breaking the dome, but by this point, not only are oonoki and raikage bleeding to death (acid), but now they're inside gaara's sand dome where he can pretty much restrain them with sand. From there it's game over.
****I'd like to note that obviously gaara and tsunade will start to burn out from the acid also, but mei would lower the ph by this point until her team moves away. This sustained damage has little effect on my team seeing as tsunade is there to heal them - seeing as tsunade has survived busted organs on numerous occassions, some acid burn won't kill her or her team through byakugo healing + Katsuya remote healing.
Well, katsuya never moves so.... I don't know what aggravated rock does to her considering all she's ever done is spit acid capable of melting even orochimaru. Along with that, that technique won't stop the mini katsuya sitting on their shoulder healing, so making katsuya heavy is not only pointless, it's a stupid waste of chakra.
I won't seriously respond to that ay ccomment. Ay can't blitz chop heads off or he wouldn't need a lariat partner. This compounded by the fact that gaara has auto sand defence which was fast enough to block enton attack and block guillotine drop. Blitzing is useless. Gaara > Ay.
A lightened ay's punch turns to a love tap. Light weight rock technique reduces power - don't even attempt to bring up the muu scan because there's not a single scan before it that shows oonoki used lightweight tech. The only tech he used with ay was aggravated rock.
I Acknowledge your last paragraph. This is true, however gaara has enough guord sand to get the job donee. With guord sand and sensor sand already in the air, the surrounding sand is of no use; mei's massive suiton, able to dwarf madara's V2 susano'o, can easily wipe him away upon contact.
Now, let me respond to your golem chit chat. Not only can mei's lava slow that down because it hardens/calcifies upon her will (she hardened lava to trap sasuke in a room), but you underestimate tsunade's strength.
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"Might be stronger than tsunade"
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She Smashed Susano'o. Notice it's gone next panel.
like i mentioned. Tsunade is only here to heal and transfer chakra, maybe one shot a golem at best. She isn't meant to fight onoki or ay because they're quite fast for her. Tsunade doesn't need to see through the mist.
Gaara has sensor sand so the mist doesn't hinder her in the slightest.
Mei has AoE suiton and acid mist up, she doesn't really need to see, all she needs is a general direction and height of the ground to send a massive pool of water at ay and oonoki that they'd only see once it's in their face.
1) Auto defence and sand can slow him down/blocks his chop
2) He needs to know where they are - no sensing to find them
3) Katsuya can wrap around them/infront of them to tank the chop for them
Katsuya isn't healing the dead, that's why i won't be able to bring your team back.
Well it didn't really smash naruto's arm into pieces.
Well i'll give you the fact that ay can shushin around his sand, but his sand is far faster than chunnin times. He blocked deid's C3 Bomb, caught Ay's guillotine drop, and formed sand infront of a shinobi fast enough to block a sword slash from madara.
His sand crumbled but he was uninjured. It did it's job against 1 hit. It will cushion ay's blow so that any chance of killing gaara with 'chop head off GG' is reduced and any possible damage can be healed by tsunade.
That literally makes no sense. People can run on hot coals because they tap the coal quickly then lift their foot, therefore their foot is more off coal than on coal and heat can dissipate from their foot before the tap again. Ay being in acid, there's no point where he'll be out, moving or not he'd be burning. If this were remotely true, driving in a car at >120Mph should suffocate you because apparently you're too fast to be affected by air. As long as ay is within the hazard zone during blitzing, he's going to continue to suffer.
Hidden mist will affect it that's true, but my eye can be anywhere including out of the mists range. Sand sensing is enough to know where the opponent is, the eye can be completely out of the mist to notice the surrounding area.
Conclussion
- MEi's boil release is able to inflict unhealable damage to team 2. Even if Team 1 sustain some of the damage, due to team 2 bringing down their defence to it, mei can reduce the PH while tsunade heals them up
- Mei's Hidden mist is ALOT thicker than you give it merit. They have <30 Feet of visibility which is easily covered by boil release.
- Gaara Sand is far more resiliant than most assume and is NOT weak to raiton. Though an aggravated rock chop can break through the dome, onoki will sustain acid damage which he can't heal from and can't toughen through like Ay. If aggravated rock is used before ay blitzes, he'd be so slow that he'd basically be walking through deadly mist.
- katsuya can absorb team mates into herself to protect them from damage. As soon as Ay starts blitzing gaara can sense this and katsuya can wrap around opponents to tank 'chop GG'
- Tsunade's strength is enough to smash onoki's golem or toss it right back into his face
- gaara's sand is capable of restraining the golem also
- mei's lava is capable of slowing it down
- mei's suiton is massive enough to blind shot team 2
- onoki only has 9 jinton and they're not that massive. His massive jinton NEEDS tsunade
This is my real arguement, and it's pretty long btw. G-Luck.
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Headmaster
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TheEvilOne
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Prince Charles
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AgoodBoy It will take me a long time to post my counter to that.. Try shortening your posts a bit xd But yeah ill try to post my counter later on.