Madara was wrong.. "HE" didn't change

[KingHashirama]

Hashirama "changed"

Madara was wrong on one thing.. he stated that Hashirama changed.

Spoiler

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However, when we make a analysis of Hashirama throughout his life time.. he was always the same.


- He forcefully stopped Tobirama from killing Madara (Because that was the best choice for the "shinobi" and the "village")
- He became strong enough to a point where people couldn't boss him around.. because that was the best choice for the shinobi and the village.


Overall, if Madara really expected Hashirama to forgive him for the 3rd time.. he really must have been naive.


You can simply say that Madara never understood Hashirama. Though you can possibly say vice-versa. Only problem with vice-versa is that, Hashirama took the dream Madara and him envisioned, and made it a reality.. while Madara said "f*ck it i can't handle shit".


Naruto and Sasuke:

^^^ This is gonna be important for the upcoming conflict between Sasuke and Naruto IMO. Sasuke will probably try to make Naruto into the "bad guy", the guy who doesn't "understand", the guy who is "naive", the one who has "changed".. While in the end, Naruto will still be the same, but sasuke would be the one that would've changed.



Danzo and Madara:

For these 2 who had been spouting crap about protecting the village and other one about making peace... for some reason these 2 are prime example of villain hypocrisy.

Danzo's goal = Protect the village
Danzo's actions :
- Ally with Hanzo and Orochimaru (both who are the enemies of the village)

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- Let people like Orochimaru experiment on villagers without any problem.
- Drink a cup of tea while the village is being raped, because "sacrifices are necesarry" for him to be Hokage and "protect the village" (x-x so much contradiction. )

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- Make attempts to assassinate the hokage
- Plot against a clan who had been giving lives for the village since its start (before Danzo and Hiruzen's clans even joined.)


Madara's goal = Make peace
Madara's actions:

- let me destroy all shinobi and kill them while having fun, so i can controll them in a fake universe
- Made Konoha with Hashirama, global peace finally happens.. oh wait let me go control the strongest tailed beast so i can destroy that world peace..​

Discussion :

1. Who do you think changed? Hashirama or Madara? who was the one who couldn't understand the other?
2. Will Naruto and Sasuke have the same thing going on when their conflict occurs?
3. Were Danzo and Madara prime examples of hypocrisy?​

 

[Indora]

Well Madara foresaw the future so I can understand why he tried to destroy Konoha. I mean how many Uchiha's are left?

 

[KingHashirama]

Well Madara foresaw the future so I can understand why he tried to destroy Konoha. I mean how many Uchiha's are left?

the future happened due to him.

Its like going on a killing spree , and then saying " the world is going to turn bad anyway". Umm you yourself would be part of the reason the world turned bad, didn't turn bad by itself.

 

[Angelic.]

yeah theyre all psycho.

he knew hashi lost his bros too, but spazzed and continued to fight and kill even tho they did understand each other. fighting a losing battle against a stronger opponent. hashi was always thinking about everyone. madara thought about his clan first until he fealt betrayed and decided to destroy everything.
obito as madara said he had a grudge.

 

[Indora]

the future happened due to him.

Its like going on a killing spree , and then saying " the world is going to turn bad anyway". Umm you yourself would be part of the reason the world turned bad, didn't turn bad by itself.

why is the uchiha genocide his fault? Also if he had won and conquered Konoha he could have made it better and prevent all this

 

[KingHashirama]

why is the uchiha genocide his fault? Also if he had won and conquered Konoha he could have made it better and prevent all this

He would've won .. you mean by killing the very man , who was trying let Madara be part of the political affairs, and eventually going to help madara be the second Hokage?

If he had killed Hashirama.. the world itself would've been chaos..

 

[AGoodBoy]

Hashirama didn't "Change" because he "didn't forgive madara for the 3rd time", he changed because he turned into a cold hearted killer who would kill even those closest to him to fullfil his dream - "my brother or even my own child".

Hashirama was never like that. He probably killed some people but we never saw him kill anyone close to him, or someone close to some else who's close to him.
Madara wasn't like that either. Madara killed people, , but he never went on wild slaughter-fests, nor did he kill anyone close to him, nor anyone close to someone close to him; hence why he spared hashirama from killing himself during the "ultimate test".

If you notice, Madara never really tried to kill Hashirama. During their many clashes, they knew each others potential and new that the other could handle what they tossed it even if it was something like tbb's or 1000 hand buddha. In fact, the manga has told us that the purpose of that fight was for madara to get that piece of skin from hashirama, meaning intentionally killing him was never part of the plan. Like their previous fights, neither of them came in with any actual killing intent; We know for a fact that at least madara came in with the intent to have fun due to his many claims in the manga which revolve around statements such as;
"

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"
"

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"
"hashirama is the only one who could stop me", "compared to hashirama this is childs play", and other such statements which just generally implied that fighting Hashirama was plain and simply exciting for him. If he decided to kill hashirama, the fun would be over.
Also, after madara won their final sword clash, he didn't proceed to finish hashirama off. Madara stood there and looked at hashirama as he teased him and gloated. Due to madara's

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, it implies that during their last meeting, hashirama came out on top so, madara was pleased that this time he was the victor. He was relishing in that moment and savoring his victory before they part ways like they usually do. How do we know they usually just up and part ways? Well, we go back to madara's statement from about -- "I'm the one standing unlike last time -- Implying that when hashirama won, he didn't proceed to execute madara in cold blood.

This time was different, however, and hashirama had had enough. Maybe it was all the constant fighting or his current loss or he realized he could just never convince madara, but hashirama "changed"; He decided that enough was enough and it was finally time to land the killing blow. That's what Madara meant by "hashirama changed" and that moment really stung him.
Madara later goes on to

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as he gives tobirama his speech about man's desire for peace but hunger for war show that at the end, those words of hashirama really stung him and stuck with him as hashirama slid his sword through his chest. After 90+ years, madara still remembered hashirama's words verbatim...

---

Now that I've gone through that, Edo madara is portrayed as just a ruthless killer, but alive pre-Vote madara is portrayed as a protector who changed ideals from creating the village to Infinite Tsukuyomi(IT doesn't require slaughtering people to achieve, mind you). He enjoyed fighting hashirama but he wasn't a ruthless killer. He didn't slaughter Oonoki and Muu, nor did he fight with hashirama inside of konoha to destroy the village, he fought him in the middle of no where to have his entertainment then go on his merry way.

I will definitely say that hashirama first changed and he definitely couldn't understand madara. Even when brought back as an edo he still didn't understand madara's true feelings or goals until madara basically spelt it out for him. After Hashirama changed, it then changed madara.

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

Hashirama didn't "Change" because he "didn't forgive madara for the 3rd time", he changed because he turned into a cold hearted killer who would kill even those closest to him to fullfil his dream - "my brother or even my own child".

Hashirama was never like that. He probably killed some people but we never saw him kill anyone close to him, or someone close to some else who's close to him.
Madara wasn't like that either. Madara killed people, , but he never went on wild slaughter-fests, nor did he kill anyone close to him, nor anyone close to someone close to him; hence why he spared hashirama from killing himself during the "ultimate test".

If you notice, Madara never really tried to kill Hashirama. During their many clashes, they knew each others potential and new that the other could handle what they tossed it even if it was something like tbb's or 1000 hand buddha. In fact, the manga has told us that the purpose of that fight was for madara to get that piece of skin from hashirama, meaning intentionally killing him was never part of the plan. Like their previous fights, neither of them came in with any actual killing intent; We know for a fact that at least madara came in with the intent to have fun due to his many claims in the manga which revolve around statements such as;
"

You must be registered for see links

"
"

You must be registered for see links

"
"hashirama is the only one who could stop me", "compared to hashirama this is childs play", and other such statements which just generally implied that fighting Hashirama was plain and simply exciting for him. If he decided to kill hashirama, the fun would be over.
Also, after madara won their final sword clash, he didn't proceed to finish hashirama off. Madara stood there and looked at hashirama as he teased him and gloated. Due to madara's

You must be registered for see links

, it implies that during their last meeting, hashirama came out on top so, madara was pleased that this time he was the victor. He was relishing in that moment and savoring his victory before they part ways like they usually do. How do we know they usually just up and part ways? Well, we go back to madara's statement from about -- "I'm the one standing unlike last time -- Implying that when hashirama won, he didn't proceed to execute madara in cold blood.

This time was different, however, and hashirama had had enough. Maybe it was all the constant fighting or his current loss or he realized he could just never convince madara, but hashirama "changed"; He decided that enough was enough and it was finally time to land the killing blow. That's what Madara meant by "hashirama changed" and that moment really stung him.
Madara later goes on to

You must be registered for see links

as he gives tobirama his speech about man's desire for peace but hunger for war show that at the end, those words of hashirama really stung him and stuck with him as hashirama slid his sword through his chest. After 90+ years, madara still remembered hashirama's words verbatim...

---

Now that I've gone through that, Edo madara is portrayed as just a ruthless killer, but alive pre-Vote madara is portrayed as a protector who changed ideals from creating the village to Infinite Tsukuyomi(IT doesn't require slaughtering people to achieve, mind you). He enjoyed fighting hashirama but he wasn't a ruthless killer. He didn't slaughter Oonoki and Muu, nor did he fight with hashirama inside of konoha to destroy the village, he fought him in the middle of no where to have his entertainment then go on his merry way.

I will definitely say that hashirama first changed and he definitely couldn't understand madara. Even when brought back as an edo he still didn't understand madara's true feelings or goals until madara basically spelt it out for him. After Hashirama changed, it then changed madara.

1.Madara was a ruthless killer, he Almost wiped out a whole division while having fun just to display his power, he didn't kill Ohnoki cause he was a child, he caused terror and treatened innocent lives
2.Hashirama didn't kill him just to protect his dream, he did it to protect innocent people are You forgetting his dream was peace only a foolish leader would allow his people to be slaughteted

 

[V h o]

I believe they both changed. Hashirama probably in the past wouldn't have killed Madara, but then Madara was opposing his dream, what so many died for so he left Hashirama with no choice. Hashirama went towards his goal for a peaceful village while Madara's goal went towards something else-power. In the past Madara shared his goal of wanting a peaceful village but that probably died when Izuna died which lead to him wanting more power to change the world forcefully if he could imo.

As for Sasuke and Naruto, I don't know. If Sasuke opposes Naruto like Madara did to Hashirama, I believe the cycle would repeat again unless Naruto allows himself to be killed or something. Although I don't think Sasuke would go to the extreme's Madara went to, in the end I think Sasuke will return to the village in some odd way.


I don't know about Danzo and Madara, both of them let their personal feelings guide their actions far too much.

 

[Demonic.]

Hashirama didn't "Change" because he "didn't forgive madara for the 3rd time", he changed because he turned into a cold hearted killer who would kill even those closest to him to fullfil his dream - "my brother or even my own child".

Hashirama was never like that. He probably killed some people but we never saw him kill anyone close to him, or someone close to some else who's close to him.
Madara wasn't like that either. Madara killed people, , but he never went on wild slaughter-fests, nor did he kill anyone close to him, nor anyone close to someone close to him; hence why he spared hashirama from killing himself during the "ultimate test".

If you notice, Madara never really tried to kill Hashirama. During their many clashes, they knew each others potential and new that the other could handle what they tossed it even if it was something like tbb's or 1000 hand buddha. In fact, the manga has told us that the purpose of that fight was for madara to get that piece of skin from hashirama, meaning intentionally killing him was never part of the plan. Like their previous fights, neither of them came in with any actual killing intent; We know for a fact that at least madara came in with the intent to have fun due to his many claims in the manga which revolve around statements such as;
"

You must be registered for see links

"
"

You must be registered for see links

"
"hashirama is the only one who could stop me", "compared to hashirama this is childs play", and other such statements which just generally implied that fighting Hashirama was plain and simply exciting for him. If he decided to kill hashirama, the fun would be over.
Also, after madara won their final sword clash, he didn't proceed to finish hashirama off. Madara stood there and looked at hashirama as he teased him and gloated. Due to madara's

You must be registered for see links

, it implies that during their last meeting, hashirama came out on top so, madara was pleased that this time he was the victor. He was relishing in that moment and savoring his victory before they part ways like they usually do. How do we know they usually just up and part ways? Well, we go back to madara's statement from about -- "I'm the one standing unlike last time -- Implying that when hashirama won, he didn't proceed to execute madara in cold blood.

This time was different, however, and hashirama had had enough. Maybe it was all the constant fighting or his current loss or he realized he could just never convince madara, but hashirama "changed"; He decided that enough was enough and it was finally time to land the killing blow. That's what Madara meant by "hashirama changed" and that moment really stung him.
Madara later goes on to

You must be registered for see links

as he gives tobirama his speech about man's desire for peace but hunger for war show that at the end, those words of hashirama really stung him and stuck with him as hashirama slid his sword through his chest. After 90+ years, madara still remembered hashirama's words verbatim...

---

Now that I've gone through that, Edo madara is portrayed as just a ruthless killer, but alive pre-Vote madara is portrayed as a protector who changed ideals from creating the village to Infinite Tsukuyomi(IT doesn't require slaughtering people to achieve, mind you). He enjoyed fighting hashirama but he wasn't a ruthless killer. He didn't slaughter Oonoki and Muu, nor did he fight with hashirama inside of konoha to destroy the village, he fought him in the middle of no where to have his entertainment then go on his merry way.

I will definitely say that hashirama first changed and he definitely couldn't understand madara. Even when brought back as an edo he still didn't understand madara's true feelings or goals until madara basically spelt it out for him. After Hashirama changed, it then changed madara.

This post is laughable Hashirama begged Madara to stop. Madara said he was going to destroy the village. Hashirama manned up and did what needed to be done.