Madara is overrated

HowDidIGetPrem

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I'm not saying he's weak, but he's really not as strong as so many members think. EMS Madara lost to Hashirama despite binding to Kurama and later ends up having Naruto and Sasuke beat on him. When you pit him against his actual competition, he's pretty much in the middle, not the top, of a barrel of monsters. To see how flawless everyone regards Madara to be, just look at the reasoning that's always used to put down Naruto and Sasuke.
Sasuke failed to take down Naruto + Kurama with 9.5 Bijuu, and Naruto needs a bijuu to compete with Sasuke to begin with. Those two points are always driven into everyone's skulls whenever there's a question between the two or of how strong they actually are. Yet no one ever seems to bat an eye at the fact that Madara embodies both of those situations so well.

For starters, the obvious one is he needed a whole bijuu(literally 100% more than Naruto needed to challenge Sasuke!) in addition to his susanoo to stalemate Hashirama's buddha.

The not so obvious is that he himself possessed those 9.5 Bijuu(of course it wasn't all 9.5, but it was the vast majority and they certainly held more chakra than when Sasuke got his hands on them), yet couldn't best Naruto or Sasuke in speed nor ninjustu. Just to throw out any resorts of "Madara didn't care," I'd like to say that I agree.... WHEN he was casting Infinite Tsukuyomi & dancing with Gai, Madara didn't care; though he clearly cared otherwise. Unless you're willing to convince me a person that lines up with that same person willingly letting himself get chopped in half, you should drop it. The outcome may not have inconvenienced him, but it's clear he'd rather not get injured, let alone split.

So what we have are two facts about Madara's strength:

1. His speed and taijutsu by extension are subpar compared to Naruto and Sasuke's own. One rinnegan or not, I don't care. Madara has the same body that Naruto has with the benefit of having more bijuu chakra pumped into it, sucking from the divine tree when Naruto diced him, and having Hashirama's cells, yet he's still incapable of physically besting Naruto in spite of all these advantages.

2. By extension of number 1, Kaguya would peg Madara. She could fend off hundreds of RSM Narutos when Madara's limited limbos got bodied by a handful of clones. She could 1 shot any susanoo and, even if Madara has 4 moon-sized susanoo, just as easily turn Madara's into dust with a single ash bone.

So to put Madara in his rightful place, I'll wrap this up with a single question. Give Madara both the seals alongside Kakashi, Obito, and Sakura's assistance, does he beat Kaguya in this scenario? No fanfic is factored into this question.
 

minamoto

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tis is teh most retarted thread since teh Animebase started...

-teh tute named Madara had teh kuikest developement in powers upgrade...

-he is teh most couragous shinobi ...proof when he attacked 9 tailed beasts alone and captured them all???...this is enough proof that him is teh strongest character..

-Madara befor becoming juubi jinchuriki was always very strong shinobi...but kaguya befor consuming chakra fruit was just a ordinary lady...now u do teh math....

-why am i even replying to a fodder thread calling madara overated when kishimoto himself praized madara and say he had no weakness...


-garbage thread..
 

Mellanoma

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Kurama is more or less a Summon / tool for Madara. With that said I don't think EMS Madara is overrated but Hashirama is underrated.
 

wanderingcactus

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Madara, like all the important characters in the series, suffer from what we call Kishimoto's bad storytelling.

So of course he is overrated.
Although for what its worth, he is one of the 2 that actually was successful in fulfilling their goals.
The other being Orochimaru killing Sarotobi and effectively destroying Konoha
 
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For starters, the obvious one is he needed a whole bijuu(literally 100% more than Naruto needed to challenge Sasuke!) in addition to his susanoo to stalemate Hashirama's buddha.
One thing about their fight that very few seem to talk about is; exactly what was Madara's goal with the fight? If he just wanted to win then why did he fake his death and why did he just not come back to fight again after he had healed himself if that is what he wanted? He also set the Izanagi up before the fight or at some point during it when he realized he would die. Hence he either admitted defeat before it happened or he let it happen.

For all we know he intended to push Hashirama to a point where he could meet two conditions of the fight;
  1. He wanted to fake his death in a believable manner and managed to even convince Hashirama that he was dead.
  2. He wanted to drop Hashirama's guard for long enough for him to obtain a suitable piece of his DNA.
Madara is a man who truly enjoys a fight, but he always puts his goals and ambition above that as seen during the war. Because we don't know his thoughts around the fight or what he had planned or if he didn't have a plan at all then we can't really say much about how well he did in that fight. He if intended to make it a stalemate and if he intended to "die" then he technically "won" the war by losing the fight. Though I doubt it was his choice to meet at a stalemate, more so that he knew it would end at that no matter what.

Just to throw out any resorts of "Madara didn't care," I'd like to say that I agree.... WHEN he was casting Infinite Tsukuyomi & dancing with Gai, Madara didn't care; though he clearly cared otherwise.
To be fair there was only two instances during the entire war where Madara actually put himself at risk and prioritized his goals over his own entertainment. This was when he went after the Juubi personally after Obito had lost and when he went to retrieve his second Rinnegan and complete his plan. Against the Gokage, the Shinobi Alliance, Gai and originally against Naruto and Sasuke he was just playing around having fun. The instance he realized he was running out of time to revive himself because Obito was dying he ended the fight with Hashirama swiftly and went for the Juubi.

The instance he had seen Gai's full power he went for the kill and the instance he realized there was actually a possibility of him losing to Naruto and Sasuke he rushed his plan ahead. Outside of those scenarios he didn't really care about anything but having fun in a fight. Which was painfully obvious when he fought Hashirama without the use of Wood Style or Rinnegan as he likely wanted a fair fight like in the good'ol days.

Unless you're willing to convince me a person that lines up with that same person willingly letting himself get chopped in half, you should drop it. The outcome may not have inconvenienced him, but it's clear he'd rather not get injured, let alone split.
One of Madara's biggest advantages in the war outside of his immense power was his extreme knowledge of combat and Ninjutsu to the point where he could take one look at Hiden Techniques and instantly know their functions because he was alive around the time when they were used far more frequently and likely more potently. He admits that he didn't understand the power that Naruto and Sasuke had gotten and was therefore more careful. The moment he realized they had a very real chance to seal him, he rushed to finish his plans as the risk was too great for him to lose over some entertainment.

Madara was a man of logic and reality, he didn't believe in idealistic views of the world. As he explained; "Power of the phenomenon of physically making things happen." He theorized that because of the unknown that was Sasuke and Naruto's powers, he wouldn't be able to win with a 100% certainty. Madara being the man he was wouldn't risk everything over even the smallest chance of losing, even if that chance was less than 1% in reality or more. Also of course he would avoid getting hurt, that is the basis of combat.

1. His speed and taijutsu by extension are subpar compared to Naruto and Sasuke's own. One rinnegan or not, I don't care. Madara has the same body that Naruto has with the benefit of having more bijuu chakra pumped into it, sucking from the divine tree when Naruto diced him, and having Hashirama's cells, yet he's still incapable of physically besting Naruto in spite of all these advantages.
Madara's primary method of fighting was Ninjutsu, not Taijutsu as seen when he fights the Gokage or Hashirama. He prefers to fight at a distance so of course his ability in Taijutsu isn't reliant on strength but precision. Madara was also physically immortal in every meaning of the word. He couldn't be killed by physical means by the time he absorbed the Shinju and before that he was almost impossible to kill. Naruto on the other hand is very much kill able. So no, they don't have the same bodies, not even close to it.

Madara's Limbo also had the physical power to knock down a Bijuu with a single punch with ease. That is at least greater than what Sage Mode can give you and that was before the Juubi, Shinju, Second Rinnegan and Rinne-Sharingan buffs. He would likely be a lot stronger physically.

2. By extension of number 1, Kaguya would peg Madara. She could fend off hundreds of RSM Narutos when Madara's limited limbos got bodied by a handful of clones. She could 1 shot any susanoo and, even if Madara has 4 moon-sized susanoo, just as easily turn Madara's into dust with a single ash bone.
This is overreaching into fan fiction area at this point. We know that Madara was physically immortal and had to be sealed and we don't know how Ash Bone works on a body like that. We don't know if he would die or he could just cut off the part that was hit and grow a new piece or if he even would've have to do that. Hence we don't know, so saying either case as facts is just fan fiction. Madara was also able to stop Naruto and Sasuke from getting remotely close to him when he activated the Genjutsu, and they were giving it their all. Kaguya failed at that about 5 times in 10 min of the fight in one way or another. Madara failed at it twice during the entire war, once against Gai and co and then once against Naruto and Sasuke.

We also have no idea how powerful Madara became as he we didn't see it. But his power in Limbo at least increased several times what he already had and Obito insisted that by getting the second Rinnegan he would be a lot more powerful than he already was. We also know that Kaguya became a "goddess" after obtaining the Rinne-Sharingan, which speaks to the power it holds even if we never saw him use it. Truth be told we don't know who is stronger than the two in terms of raw strength. What we do know however is that Madara was alot smarter and better at using his powers.
 

Animegoin

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2. By extension of number 1, Kaguya would peg Madara. She could fend off hundreds of RSM Narutos when Madara's limited limbos got bodied by a handful of clones. She could 1 shot any susanoo and, even if Madara has 4 moon-sized susanoo, just as easily turn Madara's into dust with a single ash bone.

So to put Madara in his rightful place, I'll wrap this up with a single question. Give Madara both the seals alongside Kakashi, Obito, and Sakura's assistance, does he beat Kaguya in this scenario? No fanfic is factored into this question.
Lmfao there was a lot of ignorant headcanon there but this takes the cake, Madara’s Limbo clones were still there after BZ backstabbed him. Ergo, the Limbo clones bodied Naruto’s RSM clones. 😂

Everyone knows Madara got nerfed after being resurrected, just like Sasuke got nerfed following Kaguya’s defeat. Don’t play stupid now. Sakura would be lucky if she got a chance to spit-polish Madara’s cock.
 

Tauren Chieftain

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This thread is pretty much pathetic way to downgrade character strentgh by using completely irrelevant methods and logic.

First lets talk about Rikudo and non Rikudo version of Madara and Naruto and Sasuke for comparison.

Non rikudo versions.

You are comparing Madara - Hashirama situation with Naruto and Sasuke situation because they are incarnations of Ashura ,Indra. Madara not being able to beat Hashirama is nothing that matters. Hashirama could defeat BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke with his left hand while taking a piss with his right.

Same goes with EMS Madara he would obliterate BSM NAruto and EMS Sasuke .

Not including Rikudo powers Madara was second strongest character behind only to SM hashirama.

Rikudo versions.

Here there is no comparison honestly . Madara represents Naruto and Sasuke power in one body , but to a greater degree.

Naruto only has smaller portion of other 8 bijuus while Madara has fll power of other 8 bijuus sealed inside him. Both have same rikudo senjutsu power which buffs their body.

Sasuke had Rinnegan in one eye compared to Madara dual rinnegan plus Rinne Sharingan so far strongest dojutsu in existence.

Madara has much more chakra than those 2, way superior healing factor , nigh immortality , better occular power that can be further buffed by possessing rikudo senjutsu and superior chakra pool.

Madara is second only to Kaguya.

2 more things you mention that are complete nonsense :

1) Madara taijutsu being subpar to Naruto/Sasuke. This is complete nonsense and there is nothing in manga that implies this. Actually is quite the opposite there is clear manga evidence that his taijutsu is vastly superior .

We saw situation where EMS Sasuke armed with Katana sword attacked blind , non armed Madara .
Madara easily dodged all Sasuke attacks , despite several disadvantages.

A) Sasuke having superior battlefield awareness due to fact Madara was blind and had to rely to sensor abilites
B) Sasuke having EMS that allowed him movement precognition
C) Sasuke having shard edged weapon giving him greater range

All those facts and Sasuke could't do anything to Madara .Its clear that Sasuke was the one whose taijutsu skill was subpar compared to Madara´s.

Naruto taijutsu was always inferior to Sasuke .

2) Madara couldn't best Naruto / Sasuke in ninjutsu.

This one is laughable to be honest.

Lets compare their feats .

A) 1 Chibaku tensei madara created was bigger than all 9 Sasuke did and Madara created 20 + of those. Not saying those are their limits but those are their feats.

B)Madara used Mokuton on planetary level when he cast Mugen Tsukuyomi. Nothing Naruto and Sasuke ever did combined come even close to this level.

C) Their ninjutsu peak was Vote 2 explosion something that single version 2 Juubidama outperformed (power Madara has as Juubi jinchuriki).
 
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