Madara and Kurama vs Hashirama considerations.

[Mellanoma]

To settle a lot of the questions and potential "Plot restrictions" surrounding their fight I decided to do a write up Madara /Kurama vs Hashirama fight.

I will provide some intake on different situations to help give a better understanding of what actually happened.

Points I will touch on:

SS vs Kurama/PS conflict
Madara's Stamina


SS vs Kurama/PS conflict:


While most people argue that SS "Barely" hurt susanoo this also proves just how powerful it is. But, to come to this conclusion you have to factor in the following in regards to the situation:

1) Majority of SS hands didn't even touch susanoo:

Proof:

Madara played it smart combining both Susanoo blade and TBB to help the velocity and cutting power of his blade allowing them to slice through majority of the hands.

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Based on the images provided it seems for every TBB/PS sword madara generated he possibly cut 30-40+ hands OR more. Especially since the hands near the back are longer than the hands right next to the statue (Obviously so they can reach the target)

So from the close up image below showing 40-60 hands being cut per TBB/PS combo

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plus the amount of TBB/PS combos madara generated

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We could conclude that less than 50% or more of the hands actually touched PS.

There are 11 TBB/PS combos on panel meaning there were at minimum 440-660 hands being cut of 1000 hands. This is not including any off panel TBB/PS combos giving a total of less than 40% of the hands actually touched the PS (If that)


Madara's Stamina:

Another big debate is Madara's Stamina during this fight.

While based on pure images of what was displayed it may seem like Madara had much more chakra to spare. However the reality is Madara used more chakra than expected when factoring the entire fight. It also shows that Hashirama was also potentially using Kurama's chakra to help himself as well.

Here are some examples of what I mean:

1) Start of the story image

Right when the battle starts (Based on hashirama discussion) it is clearly displayed that Hashirama and Madara were both fighting for an extended period of time:

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On screen we see:

2 Wood Dragons (1 missing head / other attached to Buddah)
Golem
Kyuubi
Non-stablized PS


To me this shows that Hashirama used multiple wood dragons to try and drain both Kurama and Madara(Potentially)

We also see lots of thicker wooden roots which indicates Hashirama may have used other constructs or abilities.

2) PS / Kyuubi + swords

While this is not factored in we have to consider the points that:

1) Madara possibly burned tremendous chakra creating the swords for TBB/Sword combo spammage

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2) Madara consumed a lot of chakra sustaining susanoo around Kyuubi (Repairing damage etc)





Anyways, this is my rant

Thoughts?

 

[InfiniteMugen]

Eh, the mangas pretty clear... I don’t think anyone’s thoughts or findings will be truer than what the writer and creator of the characters intended to show. Madara was allegedly beaten by hashirama whenever they fought. The last time they fought madara had a plan and made it out alive. Everything else is taken everywhich way by fans, but those are the facts that we know

 

[Mellanoma]

Eh, the mangas pretty clear... I don’t think anyone’s thoughts or findings will be truer than what the writer and creator of the characters intended to show. Madara was allegedly beaten by hashirama whenever they fought. The last time they fought madara had a plan and made it out alive. Everything else is taken everywhich way by fans, but those are the facts that we know

Correct, I'm simply explaining and illustrating the small details that tend to be left out.

One of the biggest is people really think PS/Kurama tanked all 1000 hands of SS when in reality a mass majority of the hands barely touched it.

 

[salamander uchiha]

Madara also used up stamina to maintain the summoning, and the genjutsu also but I agree attacks use up a lot of stamina. Btw it was Iso Susanoo not PS. On the point of wood dragons I always thought Hashirama would employ the wood dragons to absorb chakra that's a given.

As for the explosions of the TBB the scan only shows several to a dozen hands being blown off per shot so no 50 hands weren't blown off per shot.

 

[InfiniteMugen]

Correct, I'm simply explaining and illustrating the small details that tend to be left out.

One of the biggest is people really think PS/Kurama tanked all 1000 hands of SS when in reality a mass majority of the hands barely touched it.

I agree with you there. My point was mainly regardless of how taxing one could make the claim for using Kurama being, I don’t think madara could get the desired results without it. I.E. defeating hashi, or taking a loss and making it seem legit.

 

[Mellanoma]

Madara also used up stamina to maintain the summoning, and the genjutsu also but I agree attacks use up a lot of stamina. Btw it was Iso Susanoo not PS. On the point of wood dragons I always thought Hashirama would employ the wood dragons to absorb chakra that's a given.

As for the explosions of the TBB the scan only shows several to a dozen hands being blown off per shot so no 50 hands weren't blown off per shot.

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Count the # of hands vs the number of TBB/PS flying through

I agree with you there. My point was mainly regardless of how taxing one could make the claim for using Kurama being, I don’t think madara could get the desired results without it. I.E. defeating hashi, or taking a loss and making it seem legit.

For sure. The chakra for kurama was an investment for more fire power.

 

[salamander uchiha]

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Count the # of hands vs the number of TBB/PS flying through.

I did that's why I said several to a dozen per shot that ranges from between 44-122(extremely generous) hands.

BTW it was majestic attire Susa not PS.

 

[Mellanoma]

I did that's why I said several to a dozen per shot that ranges from between 44-122(extremely generous) hands.

BTW it was majestic attire Susa not PS.

Are you saying each TBB/PS combo took out 44-122 hands or only 44-122 hands were destroyed by all the spamming?

You are correct about the different susanoo variant. I imagine the reshaping of Susanoo played a part in its durability and chakra usage as well.

Either way its official that SS was highly inefficient for that particular task OR susa/Kurama combined deals an INSANE amount of damage.

 

[salamander uchiha]

Are you saying each TBB/PS combo took out 44-122 hands or only 44-122 hands were destroyed by all the spamming?

44-132 Hands were take out in total.

You are correct about the different susanoo variant. I imagine the reshaping of Susanoo played a part in its durability and chakra usage as well.

It helped Kurama survive the attack but Majestic attire is more like a sheet of armour instead of as solid or as durable as PS.

Either way its official that SS was highly inefficient for that particular task OR susa/Kurama combined deals an INSANE amount of damage.

SS was inefficient, I think Kishi introduced it ad a last minute thing. It makes no sense and it's existence is pointless. It would've been better if Hashirama was shown riding mojuton roots and finding ways to bind Kurama and suck away Susa by overwhelming it with Mito to assist. Then Mito used chains to bind it's movements and sealed it away to remove it from the fight. Kishi originally pretty much implied it and that would've been far better for the story as a whole.

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Kishi and his shitty retcons for you or Hashirama was actually lying to Sasuke. A sort of intimidation tactic/ manipulation would be an interesting twist.

 

[Mellanoma]

44-132 Hands were take out in total.





It helped Kurama survive the attack but Majestic attire is more like a sheet of armour instead of as solid or as durable as PS.



SS was inefficient, I think Kishi introduced it ad a last minute thing. It makes no sense and it's existence is pointless. It would've been better if Hashirama was shown riding mojuton roots and finding ways to bind Kurama and suck away Susa by overwhelming it with Mito to assist. Then Mito used chains to bind it's movements and sealed it away to remove it from the fight. Kishi originally pretty much implied it and that would've been far better for the story as a whole.

Spoiler

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Kishi and his shitty retcons for you or Hashirama was actually lying to Sasuke. A sort of intimidation tactic/ manipulation would be an interesting twist.

It was definitely more than 44-132 hands.

Look at the trajectory in comparison to how close they are to the statue.

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Now look at the hands of the statue

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With them flying so close im sure the hands in the back were also sliced up as well.


However, It is quite possible that Hashirama grew more hands as well so its hard to say. It would make sense that he grew more hands.

 

[salamander uchiha]

It was definitely more than 44-132 hands.

Look at the trajectory in comparison to how close they are to the statue.

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Now look at the hands of the statue

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With them flying so close im sure the hands in the back were also sliced up as well.


However, It is quite possible that Hashirama grew more hands as well so its hard to say. It would make sense that he grew more hands.

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What're you talking about all those fists turned in they weren't hanging around. You cut the scan short to show the fists, in the full scan they're moving and raining from all direction. If you look at the bends they show all the directions the fists are moving in.

I stick by 44-132(being generous) for that reason unless you want to count all the fists or circle them for me.