Mū faces the gauntlet

[Forbidden Technique]

Your whole strategic effort is pretty weak. For one, it isn't hard for Kakashi and his clones to maneuver around a narrow stone structure. Certainly wouldn't take more then a few seconds at best to get an angle on Mu where Kamui near instantly snipes him. In a worse case scenario, Jinton would never hit Kakashi when he can simply warp the Jinton cube away or warp himself into the Kamui dimension, and warp himself back.

Kage Bunshins aren't distinguishable to Dojutsu and sensors because it splits the chakra evenly in half. Proof being when Itachi clone feinted an elite sensor like DSM Kabuto, and Kakashi did the very same to a rinnegan weilding Pein. Nothing suggests Mu will be able to distinguish them. And fission doesn't at all effectively counter a full body paralysis.

Kakashi's tracking prowess and arsenal destroys him.

 

[Beans2]

Your whole strategic effort is pretty weak.

It's much better than yours when you think this battle is as simple as "raiton bunshin gg"

For one, it isn't hard for Kakashi and his clones to maneuver around a narrow stone structure. Certainly wouldn't take more then a few seconds at best to get an angle on Mu where Kamui near instantly snipes him. In a worse case scenario, Jinton would never hit Kakashi when he can simply warp the Jinton cube away or warp himself into the Kamui dimension, and warp himself back.

Has it ever occurred to you that Muu can remain invisible when he does this and therefore Kakashi won't know when to dodge?

Kage Bunshins aren't distinguishable to Dojutsu and sensors because it splits the chakra evenly in half. Proof being when Itachi clone feinted an elite sensor like DSM Kabuto, and Kakashi did the very same to a rinnegan weilding Pein. Nothing suggests Mu will be able to distinguish them. And fission doesn't at all effectively counter a full body paralysis.

It's like you didn't read my post. You haven't been able to explain how Kakashi effectively counters jinton when Mu fires it from behind a rock since interrupting the prep time with Kamui isn't an option. It's irrelevant whether Muu can sense the chakra levels of the clones, if he has intel on Kakashi's raiton bunshins and senses the presence of more than one Kakashi on the battlefield, he will not attack attack the clone in close combat when there's the possibility of it being a trap. Rather, he can deduce that the Kakashi which is easily noticeable is the clone and the one attempting to remain concealed is the original. If shadow clones divide chakra evenly then that just halves Kakashi's already poor reserves.

Kakashi's tracking prowess and arsenal destroys him.

No. Muu kills him.

 

[Apêx1]

No it does not[SUP]

[/SUP]

You...you are comparing Taiseki to the most powerful Tsuchikage? The null-man? The non-person? The one who was completely

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and was noted for his ability to erase chakra. The fourth databook has actually confirmed my thoughts on his ability to not be sensed.

Matters naught. Sensing is only sensing any chakra presence in an area. Dojutsu is literally seeing the chakra wherever it is present, whether through a wall or the floor. The 4th Databook claims he is manipulating water molecules in his body. That means he is using chakra to do so, as all manipulation in the manga is via chakra. Thus the Dojutsu perceives this chakra, and thus perceives Mu.

Muu's invisibility (in terms of chakra concealing) follows the same basic principles of

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and I'll explain. When Karin hides her chakra, she cannot sense; if she molds chakra to sense, then a sensor type will sense her chakra as well. The same applies to Muu; he can't mold chakra while invisible, and therefore can't use jinton, perform sensing, split himself, or use chakra on a technique while he is invisible. Inb4 we've seen him fly when invisible; Mu and Onoki's flying technique, confirmed in the

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and the fourth databook, is actually an extension of the Lightened-weight rock technique. So after Mu lightens himself using the technique, he extinguishes his chakra, and doesn't need to be continuously molding chakra to remain light. The same thing happens with Muu's water-reflacting technique: he molds chakra and uses it at once to turn his body invisible, and it remains that way without Muu having to continuously mold chakra, until he undoes the technique. Since he is not molding chakra to maintain this technique, his chakra can remain hidden.

I have already said that, reiterating what I said doesn't make it more valid. Karin only suppresses her chakra. That means she is merely inhibiting the ability for it to be sensed, not seen. She has not eradicated it. She has merely prevented it from being sensed. How does that, in any way, imply her chakra is no longer existent? It does not, because without chakra's existence, she, and mu for that matter, would be dead. He needs to use chakra to make himself invisible, and he needs chakra to perpetuate his survival. Sharingan sees the very chakra accomplishing this and puts an end to him. So as it is right now, Mu initially uses water particles which require chakra moulding. He suppresses his chakra after that and can no longer mould chakra. At this point, a normal sensor has no way in which he can sense his suppressed chakra. A dojutsu user can still see that chakra is existent at the place he is flying, and kill him.

No. Muu doesn't have to use chakra to remain concealed, he only has to supress it. Sharingan sees chakra, but Mu isn't using chakra. A further testament to this is that neither Danzo nor Ao detected Karin with dojutsu at the kage summit, which could confirm the dojutsu vs chakra extinguishing debate on its own. @Underline really, how well was it doing seeing through Zabuza's mist? I hope you're exaggerating here. If a chakra concealer is specifically erasing their chakras to conceal themselves, and a sharingan user sees chakra, there is nothing to see.

Okay, that doesn't matter. Sharingan sees him until he eradicates his chakra (in which case he dies). He doesn't have to use chakra for him to have chakra. How would Ao and Danzo perceive her, and in what case would that have happened? What the hell, this is no testament for anything. That's a false analogy right there. Hidden Mist incorporates chakra everywhere around the location. This chakra is the opponents chakra, so how exactly are you expecting the Sharingan to differentiate between to identical chakra's, one of which is present everywhere he looks? So once again, I will bring the VIZ [

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]. "Neither form nor chakra". This is in a chakra sensor division context. Form? Yes, he does have form, it is simply not perceivable. Contact sensing sensed his "form," furthering my 'chakra sensor only context' argument. "Chakra" is also flawed, as without chakra at all, he would be dead. Thus, there is everything I need on my side of the argument to accentuate this chakra sensor only context, and make it completely irrelevant to a dojutsu or contact sensor context. Sharingan sees the slightest chakra traces, which are still present with Mu, and has him killed. End of story.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

It's much better than yours when you think this battle is as simple as "raiton bunshin gg"



Has it ever occurred to you that Muu can remain invisible when he does this and therefore Kakashi won't know when to dodge?



It's like you didn't read my post. You haven't been able to explain how Kakashi effectively counters jinton when Mu fires it from behind a rock since interrupting the prep time with Kamui isn't an option. It's irrelevant whether Muu can sense the chakra levels of the clones, if he has intel on Kakashi's raiton bunshins and senses the presence of more than one Kakashi on the battlefield, he will not attack attack the clone in close combat when there's the possibility of it being a trap. Rather, he can deduce that the Kakashi which is easily noticeable is the clone and the one attempting to remain concealed is the original. If shadow clones divide chakra evenly then that just halves Kakashi's already poor reserves.



No. Muu kills him.

Lmao, you have got to be kidding me. Doesn't make a difference when Mu has to become visibile when he wants to begin charging up Jinton. Soon as that happens, Kakashi tracks him via sharingan, smell, or any other means. The notion of Mu charging up his Jinton and firing it through a stone pillar without Kakashi noticing and leaving him incapable of taking any action or not knowing when to dodge, as you say, is silliness. It's actually like you're not comprehending the fact that firing off a Jinton behind a rock is a worthless tactic in front of Kakashi. As I already explained, Kamui will always be a million times faster, and if worse comes to worse, Kamui'ing himself or the Jinton is always an option to avoid it. So I'm going to assume you missed that part of my post, when you claimed Kakashi has no way of effectively dealing with Jinton. Your claim that Mu will somehow deduce the clones from the original is completely baseless and not supported by anything. Kakashi clone feinted Pein and Itachi, while being able to conceal his real self. Just like Itachi concealed himself from DSM Kabuto, and successfully clone feinted him as well. Going by your assertion of Mu deducing the clone from the original by assuming the

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one is the original gets himself fooled by Kakashi's proficient clone tactics [

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]-[

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]. Kakashi's already poor chakra reserves were ridiculously spamming a MS technique during the duration of the war, a clone or two isn't hindering him.

 

[Bogard]

Mu loses to War arc Kakashi

. If he turns invisible, Sharingan will identify his chakra. If he turns invisible and remove his chakra, while Kakashi couldn't detect him by natural means, Mu himself can't use jutsus, so only option would be tai/kenjutsu or simply remove the technique overall and fight with ninjutsu. If he chooses the former, there are other ways to detect targets you can see/sense with your eyes or natural sensing technique.

It's by following the opponent's movements through changes in air current, something gaiden Kakashi could do. What's even funny is that the supposed fodder Kakashi managed to detect with this method had a jutsu classified to be higher than Mu's(A-rank instead of B-rank like Mu's jutsu), so it seemed that despite being a fodder, the level of difficulty of the jutsu he mastered was on another level

It's even possible that Kakashi would leave a clone(or lightning clone) as a bet without Mu noticing, since it's his strategy and in this case, he'd gain the upperhand in any taijutsu approach. Jinton also has a charge time and considering how fast Kakashi could warp Gedo Mazo's arm while mid summon, he'd probably warp Mu in the meantime it would take him to do something like that

 

[Beans2]

Lmao, you have got to be kidding me. Doesn't make a difference when Mu has to become visibile when he wants to begin charging up Jinton. Soon as that happens, Kakashi tracks him via sharingan, smell, or any other means. The notion of Mu charging up his Jinton and firing it through a stone pillar without Kakashi noticing and leaving him incapable of taking any action or not knowing when to dodge, as you say, is silliness. It's actually like you're not comprehending the fact that firing off a Jinton behind a rock is a worthless tactic in front of Kakashi. As I already explained, Kamui will always be a million times faster, and if worse comes to worse, Kamui'ing himself or the Jinton is always an option to avoid it. So I'm going to assume you missed that part of my post, when you claimed Kakashi has no way of effectively dealing with Jinton.

I'm not following, how does Kakashi dodge jinton? Being able to see Mu behind a rock does not equate to Kakashi being able to dodge. If Kakashi uses kamui to warp the jinton it's a dead giveaway to that Kakashi being the original, at which point Mu can go invisible and stab him.

Your claim that Mu will somehow deduce the clones from the original is completely baseless and not supported by anything. Kakashi clone feinted Pein and Itachi, while being able to conceal his real self. Just like Itachi concealed himself from DSM Kabuto, and successfully clone feinted him as well. Going by your assertion of Mu deducing the clone from the original by assuming the

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one is the original gets himself fooled by Kakashi's proficient clone tactics [

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]-[

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].

Read my last post again. It doesn't matter if Muu can't distinguish between a clone and the original. Having intel on raiton bunshins and by detecting the presence of more than one Kakashi on the battlefield, Muu won't attack the clone when he's aware of it being a trap. He can determine the real Kakashi from the clone by going visible. @Bold, that's not necessarily true. If it's the real Kakashi, Mu will sense the buildup of chakra behind Kakashi's MS and go invisible to avoid a kamui warp (as an extra precaution Mu can divide into two before doing this.) If it is a clone, Kakashi will not attempt to warp him since bunshins can't use kamui and the real one will be concealed and have his line of sight blocked and be incapable of warping Mu. Or, as I said earlier Mu goes behind a stone pillar and fires off a jinton at the clone. If Kakashi goes to great lengths to avoid getting vaporized, such as warping the jinton, Mu will know that is the real one.

Kakashi's already poor chakra reserves were ridiculously spamming a MS technique during the duration of the war, a clone or two isn't hindering him.

Doesn't matter how good Kakashi's reserves are if clones take half your chakra, as you say. If he uses 1 clone, he's already down to 50% chakra. If he uses another, he's down to 25%. Kakashi can easily get outlasted here if he's not careful with clones. If bunshins don't divide chakra evenly, then Muu can differentiate the clone from the original by sensing their chakra levels.

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

He can beat Tsunade, Sakura, Orochimaru and maybe Kakashi.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

I'm not following, how does Kakashi dodge jinton? Being able to see Mu behind a rock does not equate to Kakashi being able to dodge. If Kakashi uses kamui to warp the jinton it's a dead giveaway to that Kakashi being the original, at which point Mu can go invisible and stab him.



Read my last post again. It doesn't matter if Muu can't distinguish between a clone and the original. Having intel on raiton bunshins and by detecting the presence of more than one Kakashi on the battlefield, Muu won't attack the clone when he's aware of it being a trap. He can determine the real Kakashi from the clone by going visible. @Bold, that's not necessarily true. If it's the real Kakashi, Mu will sense the buildup of chakra behind Kakashi's MS and go invisible to avoid a kamui warp (as an extra precaution Mu can divide into two before doing this.) If it is a clone, Kakashi will not attempt to warp him since bunshins can't use kamui and the real one will be concealed and have his line of sight blocked and be incapable of warping Mu. Or, as I said earlier Mu goes behind a stone pillar and fires off a jinton at the clone. If Kakashi goes to great lengths to avoid getting vaporized, such as warping the jinton, Mu will know that is the real one.



Doesn't matter how good Kakashi's reserves are if clones take half your chakra, as you say. If he uses 1 clone, he's already down to 50% chakra. If he uses another, he's down to 25%. Kakashi can easily get outlasted here if he's not careful with clones. If bunshins don't divide chakra evenly, then Muu can differentiate the clone from the original by sensing their chakra levels.

Assuming there aren't any bunshins to be considered? These stone pillars you're banking so heavily on are very narrow and thin. Kakashi doesn't need to travel a great length in order to reposition himself to a suitable angle where Kamui snipes. And I'm not quite sure where we ruled out the possibility of Kakashi tracking Mu once he goes invisible, because it isn't an impossible feat for someone like Kakashi.

If Kakashi wants to conceal himself or a bunshin, he should be able to. Unless you're telling me Mu's sensory abilities trump DSM Kabuto's, who didn't notice Itachi concealing himself and attacking with a Karasu Bunshin. The execution of Kakashi's Kamui in the war arc, goes well beyond being able to simply sense the chakra build up and countering suitably. I mean, Mu's invisiblility progressively activates along his body and doesn't happen instantly all at once, so it's far from instant. So if Kakashi ever initiaties his Kamui at Mu, best believe the fight is over. It's that haxxed. Again, these thin stone pillars aren't blocking Kakashi's line of sight indefinitely. Firing off Jinton at a clone, leaves Mu prone to getting Kamui'd at any direction from the real Kakashi.

It actually does matter, because Kamui was still being spammed with seemingly minimal amount of chakra or repercussion. Also, when clones are dispelled by the user, the chakra returns back to the them, so there isn't a major issue if Mu somehow distinguishes the real from the fake. But I still have no idea how you conclude that Mu can differentiate clones by the chakra levels when DSM Kabuto level sensing, Rinnegan, Sharingan, and Byakugan are unable to.

 

[Beans2]

Assuming there aren't any bunshins to be considered? These stone pillars you're banking so heavily on are very narrow and thin. Kakashi doesn't need to travel a great length in order to reposition himself to a suitable angle where Kamui snipes. And I'm not quite sure where we ruled out the possibility of Kakashi tracking Mu once he goes invisible, because it isn't an impossible feat for someone like Kakashi.

Incorrect, if Muu chooses to use jinton from behind a rock at mid range or long range, Kakashi won't be able to traverse the necessary distance in order to get Mu within his line of sight before Mu vaporizes him with his jinton. Mu can track Kakashi with his sensing just as efficiently (in fact, more so) than Kakashi can track him with sharingan, so Mu can simply aim his jinton to follow Kakashi, or

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. While it takes a few seconds to load a jinton, its execution speed is in fact very fast and Kakashi won't be capable of outrunning it. The thickness of the stone pillars is irrelevant so long as Mu remains a safe distance away (

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either so I don't know why you said that.) At the very worst, Mu can sense Kakashi coming and switch to the defensive by canceling the jinton and going invisible, or circling around the pillar to avoid getting caught in Kakashi's LoS (similar to how squirrels climb tree trunks in a circular motion when they're being chased.) Underlined, ninken can probably track Mu within a certain range if Kakashi summons them but verbal communication between Pakkun and Kakashi is a poor way of tracking Mu since he can only give Kakashi a rough approximate of Mu's location and someone with Mu's speed and reflexes can constantly be changing locations (also verbal communication is not always fast enough to alert an ally to an opponent's attack.)

If Kakashi wants to conceal himself or a bunshin, he should be able to. Unless you're telling me Mu's sensory abilities trump DSM Kabuto's, who didn't notice Itachi concealing himself and attacking with a Karasu Bunshin.

A distracted Kabuto somehow being unable to react to a crow clone (which Itachi created with his extremely quick hand seal speed) does not equate to Mu being unable to sense the chakra in Kakashi's clone. Kakashi hasn't shown any sort of ability that hides or masks his chakra.

The execution of Kakashi's Kamui in the war arc, goes well beyond being able to simply sense the chakra build up and countering suitably. I mean, Mu's invisiblility progressively activates along his body and doesn't happen instantly all at once, so it's far from instant. So if Kakashi ever initiaties his Kamui at Mu, best believe the fight is over. It's that haxxed.

Conceded

Again, these thin stone pillars aren't blocking Kakashi's line of sight indefinitely. Firing off Jinton at a clone, leaves Mu prone to getting Kamui'd at any direction from the real Kakashi.

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so he can ensure that he doesn't enter Kakashi's line of sight during the start up time. If Kakashi doesn't kamui away the jinton Mu will know it's a clone and can choose to ignore it or throw his sword at him to kill the clone (before you go into a hysteria because Mu has never shown feats of throwing a sword, keep in mind that Mu's acute sensing and reflexes enable him to throw the sword with great precision.) If he goes behind the clone and throws the sword from a blind spot, Kakashi won't see it coming and therefore can't dodge. It doesn't have to hit a vital point either since clones have poor durability and would be extinguished from just one hit, and Kakashi just lost half his chakra.

It actually does matter, because Kamui was still being spammed with seemingly minimal amount of chakra or repercussion. Also, when clones are dispelled by the user, the chakra returns back to the them, so there isn't a major issue if Mu somehow distinguishes the real from the fake. But I still have no idea how you conclude that Mu can differentiate clones by the chakra levels when DSM Kabuto level sensing, Rinnegan, Sharingan, and Byakugan are unable to.

You are talking like Kakashi can use up half his chakra on a clone and still spam kamui all day. Kakashi was never spamming kamui, with his chakra divided Kakashi would most likely be limited to around two or three uses. Explain to me how Kakashi doesn't get outlasted here?

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Incorrect, if Muu chooses to use jinton from behind a rock at mid range or long range, Kakashi won't be able to traverse the necessary distance in order to get Mu within his line of sight before Mu vaporizes him with his jinton. Mu can track Kakashi with his sensing just as efficiently (in fact, more so) than Kakashi can track him with sharingan, so Mu can simply aim his jinton to follow Kakashi, or

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. While it takes a few seconds to load a jinton, its execution speed is in fact very fast and Kakashi won't be capable of outrunning it. The thickness of the stone pillars is irrelevant so long as Mu remains a safe distance away (

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either so I don't know why you said that.) At the very worst, Mu can sense Kakashi coming and switch to the defensive by canceling the jinton and going invisible, or circling around the pillar to avoid getting caught in Kakashi's LoS (similar to how squirrels climb tree trunks in a circular motion when they're being chased.) Underlined, ninken can probably track Mu within a certain range if Kakashi summons them but verbal communication between Pakkun and Kakashi is a poor way of tracking Mu since he can only give Kakashi a rough approximate of Mu's location and someone with Mu's speed and reflexes can constantly be changing locations (also verbal communication is not always fast enough to alert an ally to an opponent's attack.)

Lol, Kakashi wouldn't be able to traverse the necessary distance in time? Early part two Kakashi was able to avoid getting destroyed by a

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Fūton: Atsugai, which is a whole lot more

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then a stone pillar and Jinton cube. War-Arc Kakashi is easily faster, more perceptive, and has much better reaction time; and will have no problem maneuvering around a 10 meter thick stone pillar to Kamui snipe Mu. Jinton fired from long-range is dodged as well. Give it up already. And you have not given me no concrete proof that Kakashi wouldn't be able to track invisible Mu. If a Juvenile Kakashi is capable of tracking someone via air currents, then that only means he is much more proficient at that particular skill now. Especially given the fact that the location is in a desert with sand naturally travelling in the air, it'll be even easier to track Mu. Not to mention his sense of smell, as it was stated to be better then early part two Kibas; who's smell alone was over 1,000 that of an ordinary human; and there is no actual proof that Mu can completely erase his smell.

A distracted Kabuto somehow being unable to react to a crow clone (which Itachi created with his extremely quick hand seal speed) does not equate to Mu being unable to sense the chakra in Kakashi's clone. Kakashi hasn't shown any sort of ability that hides or masks his chakra.

A distracted? I thought sensing would allow DSM Kabuto to be weary of every clone, like you stated with Mu. Conveniently not the case with Kabuto now? Kakashi's hand speed and jutsu execution are pretty much as fast as Itachi's. Kakashi concealed himself from Itachi's sharingan and Peins Rinnegan.

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so he can ensure that he doesn't enter Kakashi's line of sight during the start up time. If Kakashi doesn't kamui away the jinton Mu will know it's a clone and can choose to ignore it or throw his sword at him to kill the clone (before you go into a hysteria because Mu has never shown feats of throwing a sword, keep in mind that Mu's acute sensing and reflexes enable him to throw the sword with great precision.) If he goes behind the clone and throws the sword from a blind spot, Kakashi won't see it coming and therefore can't dodge. It doesn't have to hit a vital point either since clones have poor durability and would be extinguished from just one hit, and Kakashi just lost half his chakra.

If it's long-range shot, then Kakashi and his clones will have no problem avoiding it. Mid-range, Kakashi and his clones maneuver easily around a thin stone pillar, and the real one Kamui snipes Mu. As I already stated, going completely invisible isn't instant or as fast as Kamui. And that is not going to happen when Kakashi should be able to still track him while going invisible.

You are talking like Kakashi can use up half his chakra on a clone and still spam kamui all day. Kakashi was never spamming kamui, with his chakra divided Kakashi would most likely be limited to around two or three uses. Explain to me how Kakashi doesn't get outlasted here?

On panel, Kakashi created a raiton bunshin (split chakra reserve in half), used raikairi, two doton techniques, and still had enough chakra to use Kamui twice in the Pein arc. With what War-Arc Kakashi displayed, he is capable of much more.

 

[Beans2]

Lol, Kakashi wouldn't be able to traverse the necessary distance in time? Early part two Kakashi was able to avoid getting destroyed by a

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Fūton: Atsugai, which is a whole lot more

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then a stone pillar and Jinton cube.

Poor example, Kakashi tanked that fuuton. He was in midair so there was no way that he could have dodged.

War-Arc Kakashi is easily faster, more perceptive, and has much better reaction time; and will have no problem maneuvering around a 10 meter thick stone pillar to Kamui snipe Mu. Jinton fired from long-range is dodged as well. Give it up already. And you have not given me no concrete proof that Kakashi wouldn't be able to track invisible Mu.

You fail to understand that it's not simply a matter of maneuvering around a stone pillar. Kakashi has to first run up to the pillar, go around the pillar and then kamui Mu. KCM Naruto

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with Mu even stating that his attack would be faster. Onoki

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within seconds with almost no charge-up time. If you think Kakashi can cross this distance and navigate around the pillar before Mu can execute a jinton you are greatly underestimating jinton's speed, and Kakashi doesn't stand a chance at dodging it since Mu can adjust the direction he is aiming while he is prepping it. If by some miracle Kakashi does manage to traverse that distance Mu can sense Kakashi coming and

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then circle the pillar to remain out of Kakashi's line of sight or go invisible, a point which you chose to ignore.

You haven't provided any evidence at all to back up your assertion that Kakashi dodges jinton. Don't tell me to "give it up already" when you aren't capable of explaining how Kakashi doesn't get vaporized. I already had to explain to you why he beats Sakura and Tsunade (who he LOW DIFFS) so it's clear you don't understand how his abilities work or what he's capable of.

If a Juvenile Kakashi is capable of tracking someone via air currents, then that only means he is much more proficient at that particular skill now. Especially given the fact that the location is in a desert with sand naturally travelling in the air, it'll be even easier to track Mu. Not to mention his sense of smell, as it was stated to be better then early part two Kibas; who's smell alone was over 1,000 that of an ordinary human; and there is no actual proof that Mu can completely erase his smell.

There are no feats of Kakashi tracking air currents. He couldn't detect Taiseki until he

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Tracking him by feeling air currents is also a skill that works only at very close range since any farther away Kakashi can't feel the movement of the air which is displaced by Mu's motions. Using Naruto's statement on Kakashi's smell being better than Kiba's is laughable considering on the next page he said Kakashi was better at taijutsu than Lee, and Kiba has a much better sense of smell

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There's no feats of Mu erasing his smell, true, but Kakashi stated that a jonin-level Iwa-nin

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so it's highly unlikely that Taiseki's simple camouflage technique would be superior to Mu's (who was famous for his ability to mask his presence), and narrow-minded to think Mu can't mask his scent to at least the same level that Taiseki did.

A distracted? I thought sensing would allow DSM Kabuto to be weary of every clone, like you stated with Mu. Conveniently not the case with Kabuto now? Kakashi's hand speed and jutsu execution are pretty much as fast as Itachi's. Kakashi concealed himself from Itachi's sharingan and Peins Rinnegan.

So you are trying to claim that bunshins cannot be sensed? Smh. Let me start with saying that being a sensor does not mean you can necessarily track/focus/multitask on everything at once, and diversions still work. Point: Kabuto managed to

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but after being

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Sasuke was able to

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. If you look in the bottom left of that last scan you can see Itachi removing Susano'o, so that means that was the real Itachi and not a clone - so in the short time Itachi wove the seals for the clone which Kabuto stabbed in place of the real Itachi; a conclusion further supported by how the real Itachi was

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who was momentarily distracted by the explosion of crows. Kabuto was distracted because he was assaulted by Magatamas, pierced by a Susano'o arrow, swinging from the ceiling and solely focused on grabbing the sword, and he was also blind; so it's understandable that in the heat of the moment he was overwhelmed and did not notice Itachi create a crow clone. This does not equate to Mu being unable to sense the chakra in Kakashi's bunshins, for no reason at all.

Itachi's hand seal speed and jutsu is superior to Kakashi's in canon

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and his seal speed feats far surpass anything Kakashi has shown. No, Kakashi never concealed himself from Itachi's sharingan. Itachi's own fireball (which is filled with chakra)

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the same way the chakra within Hidden Mist jutsu clouded Kakashi's vision so he could not see through the mist chakra with his sharingan. So Itachi could not see Kakashi go underground or make a clone with his vision clouded and

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he was distracted by the clone which engaged in close combat with him, and not knowing it was a clone he attempted genjutsu. Rinnegan doesn't see chakra so not sure why you brought that up. And the cherry on top is that Neji could see the chakra networks in Naruto's clones

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, so no clones can have their chakra sensed just fine. Please don't waste my time by making me explain simple concepts like this to you.

If it's long-range shot, then Kakashi and his clones will have no problem avoiding it. Mid-range, Kakashi and his clones maneuver easily around a thin stone pillar, and the real one Kamui snipes Mu. As I already stated, going completely invisible isn't instant or as fast as Kamui. And that is not going to happen when Kakashi should be able to still track him while going invisible.

How does he avoid

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? How does he traverse the distance to the stone pillar before getting killed? You give all these claims but have no proof of Kakashi being able to do such a thing.

On panel, Kakashi created a raiton bunshin (split chakra reserve in half), used raikairi, two doton techniques, and still had enough chakra to use Kamui twice in the Pein arc. With what War-Arc Kakashi displayed, he is capable of much more.

Since when did raiton bunshins split one's chakra reserves in half? Does rakiriki and doton techniques even cost much chakra? Yes, after that Kakashi warped small objects with kamui twice and then died of chakra exhaustion. You're wasting my time with these posts and your arguments are weak, and on top of that you're rude to me. If I don't see a legitimate counter to jinton in your next post I will not respond.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Poor example, Kakashi tanked that fuuton. He was in midair so there was no way that he could have dodged.

If you actually took the time to read and comprehend the

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, you'd know that Kakashi saw through it with his sharingan, as the manga specifically states. Tanking something and seeing through it with the sharingan doesn't correlate. Kakashi and Hidan were running along the tree, and both got blasted point blank, but Kakashi avoided taking any real damage. Furthermore, Hidan even specifically said that he was the first one they failed to kill using this tactic and Kakashi was never notorious for his durability. So you can rethink your whole approach on that, or better yet doing me the favor of not responding. Kakashi has shown the ability to read through techniques throughout the manga, shown the ability to react appropriately, shown the necessary speed required to mostly avoid widescale techniques... Kakashi isn't getting hit by Mu's Jinton. Keyword being Mu's, not Onoki's Jinton feats.

And the only thing I fail to understand is your stretch of an imagination. If Kakashi is fast enough to avoid a widescale attack from point blank range and then come out of nowhere to block raiton gian, then it's really as simple as slightly maneuvering himself around a thin stone pillar to get the right angle on Mu and snipe him. Nothing here requires Kakashi having to run up to him.

There are no feats of Kakashi tracking air currents. He couldn't detect Taiseki until he

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Tracking him by feeling air currents is also a skill that works only at very close range since any farther away Kakashi can't feel the movement of the air which is displaced by Mu's motions. Using Naruto's statement on Kakashi's smell being better than Kiba's is laughable considering on the next page he said Kakashi was better at taijutsu than Lee, and Kiba has a much better sense of smell

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There's no feats of Mu erasing his smell, true, but Kakashi stated that a jonin-level Iwa-nin

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so it's highly unlikely that Taiseki's simple camouflage technique would be superior to Mu's (who was famous for his ability to mask his presence), and narrow-minded to think Mu can't mask his scent to at least the same level that Taiseki did.

What's laughable is you arguing against the manga, which shockingly doesn't surprise me in the slightest. So I'm not even going to go there and explain to you how widely skilled and versatile Kakashi is. Him having better taijutsu skill then early part two Rock Lee isn't absurd in the slightest. And Kiba clearly improved a lot since then, as stated in that very manga page. So you can go right ahead and disregard manga facts based on your own baseless belief.

This Jonin level Iwa nin is capable of going completely invisible instantly once he initiates his jutsu, while Mu's jutsu progressively turns his body invisible. Two different jutsu, two different difficulty rankings.

So you are trying to claim that bunshins cannot be sensed? Smh. Let me start with saying that being a sensor does not mean you can necessarily track/focus/multitask on everything at once, and diversions still work. Point: Kabuto managed to

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but after being

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Sasuke was able to

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. If you look in the bottom left of that last scan you can see Itachi removing Susano'o, so that means that was the real Itachi and not a clone - so in the short time Itachi wove the seals for the clone which Kabuto stabbed in place of the real Itachi; a conclusion further supported by how the real Itachi was

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who was momentarily distracted by the explosion of crows. Kabuto was distracted because he was assaulted by Magatamas, pierced by a Susano'o arrow, swinging from the ceiling and solely focused on grabbing the sword, and he was also blind; so it's understandable that in the heat of the moment he was overwhelmed and did not notice Itachi create a crow clone. This does not equate to Mu being unable to sense the chakra in Kakashi's bunshins, for no reason at all.


Itachi's hand seal speed and jutsu is superior to Kakashi's in canon

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and his seal speed feats far surpass anything Kakashi has shown. No, Kakashi never concealed himself from Itachi's sharingan. Itachi's own fireball (which is filled with chakra)

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the same way the chakra within Hidden Mist jutsu clouded Kakashi's vision so he could not see through the mist chakra with his sharingan. So Itachi could not see Kakashi go underground or make a clone with his vision clouded and

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he was distracted by the clone which engaged in close combat with him, and not knowing it was a clone he attempted genjutsu. Rinnegan doesn't see chakra so not sure why you brought that up. And the cherry on top is that Neji could see the chakra networks in Naruto's clones

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, so no clones can have their chakra sensed just fine. Please don't waste my time by making me explain simple concepts like this to you.

Absolutely not. I'm actually manga informed [

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]. If you were too, then you wouldn't of had to waste your time indirectly proving it with other points. Perhaps I was unclear with my points in this regard, but Mu cannot sense while invisible. Hence why he didn't notice Gaaras sensory sand. Onoki even knew of this, which is why he opted in using Iwa Bunshins to counter invisiblity [

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]>[

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], because he knew Mu couldn't distinguish them. If Mu goes invisible, then Kakashi should have no problem concealing himself or his clones. @ bold, that's exactly what I wanted you to admit.Thanks, cornbread. Because that's exactly what Kakashi excels in.

Yes, let's use a part one scan to prove that current Kakashi hasn't advanced at all since then, and hasn't caught up or surpassed someone who has died like over 300 chapters ago. I have no idea what you're even arguing against, because Kakashi was keeping up with Itachi's jutsu speed and even matched it with his own during their second encounter. And your excuse is nice and dandy and all, but unfortunately Itachi specifically say's that Kakashi concealed himself with his doton technique, not Itachi's own Katon [

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]. Whether you want to continue to argue against the manga or not is up to you though. Rinnegan doesn't see chakra? That's odd... [

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].

How does he avoid

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? How does he traverse the distance to the stone pillar before getting killed? You give all these claims but have no proof of Kakashi being able to do such a thing.

Not Mu's feat, stop it with that already. Going by Mu's actual Jinton feats - The fact that Gaara was originally well

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Onoki, yet was still easily fast enough to get in front of him by the time Mu completely became visible and initiated his Jinton charge up more then implies Kakashi is capable of seeing through this a mile away with his sharingan and counter/avoid it easily given his feats against Kakuzu in an inferior form. But I'm done arguing this with you. Believe what you want.

Since when did raiton bunshins split one's chakra reserves in half? Does rakiriki and doton techniques even cost much chakra? Yes, after that Kakashi warped small objects with kamui twice and then died of chakra exhaustion. You're wasting my time with these posts and your arguments are weak, and on top of that you're rude to me. If I don't see a legitimate counter to jinton in your next post I will not respond.

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. Inb4 you somehow try to contradict the manga, sensors have never distinguished a Kage Bunshin, or any variant of a bunshin IIRC, from the original. So don't try it. Jesus Christ... In addition to all the chakra he has already used in the war, Kakashi created [

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] Kage Bunshin, and still was going to use Kamui on

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. After that, Kakashi was seen using another Kage Bunshin [

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] then he proceeded to spam Kamui from this

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forward until receiving chakra from Kurama.

Nah, do me the favor and don't bother countering. I've been wasting my time for a few posts now on your ridiculous Mu wank, and I'm not going to continue educating you on the manga either.

 

[Beans2]

^I hope you were kidding about Kakashi having better taijutsu than early Part two rock lee.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Just to butt in; I am familiar with the scan being discussed. Shouldn't it be Kakashi has better senses than part 1 Lee and Kiba? As, Naruto hasn't been able to really judge his new comrades and their improvement at that point in time?

@Beans: I didn't bother reading your and FT's entire debate, just vaguely remember the reply to me a few days ago. But, how does Muu's technique hide his scent? His jutsu and that of the Iwa shinobi is different entirely.

 

[Beans2]

Just to butt in; I am familiar with the scan being discussed. Shouldn't it be Kakashi has better senses than part 1 Lee and Kiba? As, Naruto hasn't been able to really judge his new comrades and their improvement at that point in time?

@Beans: I didn't bother reading your and FT's entire debate, just vaguely remember the reply to me a few days ago. But, how does Muu's technique hide his scent? His jutsu and that of the Iwa shinobi is different entirely.

It might not.

 

[Apêx1]

Just to butt in; I am familiar with the scan being discussed. Shouldn't it be Kakashi has better senses than part 1 Lee and Kiba? As, Naruto hasn't been able to really judge his new comrades and their improvement at that point in time?

@Beans: I didn't bother reading your and FT's entire debate, just vaguely remember the reply to me a few days ago. But, how does Muu's technique hide his scent? His jutsu and that of the Iwa shinobi is different entirely.

It does not. All he is doing is preventing chakra sensory, as I proved priorly. He is only allowing light to pass through him instead of being reflected in order to go 'invisible' and he is suppressing his chakra similarly to how Karin suppresses hers. In no way can his scent be erased through such a method, let alone his own "

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" (as he's still there) as Kabuto stated in a chakra sensory context. Since it's established that it's a chakra sensory context, "

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" is also in a chakra sensory context, meaning the Sharingan can still perceive his present chakra he's suppressing his chakra or not (unless you are willing to debate Mu can survive with 0 chakra).

 

[Icelerate]

^I hope you were kidding about Kakashi having better taijutsu than early Part two rock lee.

Hokage Kakashi has better taijutsu than post war arc Lee, just saying.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

He beats everyone except Danzō/Hiruzen, maybe Orochimaru, and maybe Obito.

If people say that he loses to Itachi, then they're going to have to argue for him losing to Kakashi as well because MS Kakashi>MS Itachi and 3T Kakashi>3T Itachi. Not to mention that Kakashi has greater natural perception than Itachi due to his background as a ninken-shinobi similar to the Inuzuka.

 

[Haizaki]

Lol Beans I just hope I didn't read you trying to say that Mu can distinguish between clones through sensing. I've also noticed you like giving Onoki's Jinton prep to Mu.

 

[New Dawn]

1. Sakura and Tsunade Mu neggs
2. War Arc Kakashi Kakashi gets negged
3. Orochimaru Toss up
4. Deidara and Sasori Mu gets negged
5. Danzo and Hiruzen Mu gets negged
6. War Arc Gaara Mu wins
7. Kisame Mu losses
8. Itachi Mu gets negged
9. Killer Bee Mu gets negged
10. MS Obito Mu gets negged