[Discussion] Luffy vs Law

silmarill

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I'm not saying it isn't special...fact is though in the fight it literally did nothing. If anyone is making excuses it's you by trying to put across CoC is at this point some epic game changer when in fact it's done nothing as of yet.



Wow Law's saved Luffy's life and actually he's not taking revenge for him he's fighting for his own reason. Law has done serious damage to Doflamingo, something Luffy hasn't done as of yet. So what if Luffy's declared him as a friend their both pirates Kidd and Law have shown interest in going for the One Piece and believe it or not this will clash with Luffy's goals. Also just because people are friends it doesn't mean they can't be rivals take Roger for example he considered Whitebeard his friend and they were rivals.



Uhm yeah they can, I'm not ignoring the issue your just not seeing my argument back to it. Fact is we never seen Luffy attack a healthy Doflamingo at close range so all we can do is speculate. However saying Luffy would have been able to hit Doflamingo at point blank range is an opinion none the less since we never seen it happen.



Okay then explain to me how CoC affects Luffy or Doflamingo in a fight. Cracking a mountain is irrelevant in 1 on 1 fight.



Yeah I do mean 'those' two little encounters because it portrays Doflamingo as superior to Luffy when he's healthy and stop making excuses for Luffy if it was any other character you wouldn't be defending them. Fact is when Doflamingo was healthy the only time Luffy landed a hit was when Law assisted in a strategy which involved shambles and a red hawk.

Cause Rob Lucci did not seem superior to Luffy when they first met
Do u think Doflamingo can 'neg' Smoker because of their one and only encounter? Fact of the matter is Law is the only person who fought Doflamingo long enough to classify the difference of their strength. We can't impossibly grade how fair Luffy would do based on some puny exchanges he did not even seem to feel
Well I gotta go eat with family for Easter

Happy Easter.-. to ya all
 

Dęvîa Puęrî

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Excuses and more excuses.

If King's Haki isn't special then why does everyone wank it and the executives made Doflamingo their king based on him having it.

Everyone calls it the chosen ones power.

And Law being Luffy's rival?

Ha.

He lost the right a long time ago, Luffy saved him twice and is taking his revenge for him. Heck Luffy already declared him a friend, and as seen throughout the entire series, once Luffy decides you are a friend its sticks regardless of if they like it or not.

Law is not a rival period, he just refuses to admit Luffy is his friend.

And as for Luffy hitting Dolfamingo, once again you ignore the issue that this was the first time they fought at point blank range, you can't miss someone at point blank no matter how fast they are. Dolfamingo didn't need to be injured for Luffy to hit him when they are nose to nose.

Edit: Oh and if it only worked on fodder, why do the ones who have it keep using it on each other, clearly it has other uses, Luffy and Doflamingo cracked the entire mountain during their CoC.

So what if he saved his life do u not remember who saved luffy life after the war...ur illogical to think law is not luffys whitebeard...
 

U mAd

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luffy mid diffs.based on the manga law is no match for mingo luffy is.
 

saw2097

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So what if he saved his life do u not remember who saved luffy life after the war...ur illogical to think law is not luffys whitebeard...

Based on what grounds is Law going to be Luffy's Whitebeard?

Show the proof from the manga, that is purely speculation and completely made up.

Whitebeard was enemies with the King of the Pirates, he wasn't rescued twice in one day by the King of the Pirates and he didn't need him to take his revenge.

In fact the fact that Law saved Luffy during the War is further proof that he isn't Luffy's Whitebeard, Whitebeard would not have done the same for the King of the Pirates and Luffy doesn't consider people who save his life enemies.

Luffy has many real rivals such as Blackbeard, heck Kid is more likely to be Luffy's Whitebeard as they are going to end up fighting each other seriously.

Whitebeard and the Pirate King were enemies, but Luffy and Law are friends, that right there completely invalidates Law being Luffy's Whitebeard.

I'm not saying it isn't special...fact is though in the fight it literally did nothing. If anyone is making excuses it's you by trying to put across CoC is at this point some epic game changer when in fact it's done nothing as of yet.



Wow Law's saved Luffy's life and actually he's not taking revenge for him he's fighting for his own reason. Law has done serious damage to Doflamingo, something Luffy hasn't done as of yet. So what if Luffy's declared him as a friend their both pirates Kidd and Law have shown interest in going for the One Piece and believe it or not this will clash with Luffy's goals. Also just because people are friends it doesn't mean they can't be rivals take Roger for example he considered Whitebeard his friend and they were rivals.



Uhm yeah they can, I'm not ignoring the issue your just not seeing my argument back to it. Fact is we never seen Luffy attack a healthy Doflamingo at close range so all we can do is speculate. However saying Luffy would have been able to hit Doflamingo at point blank range is an opinion none the less since we never seen it happen.



Okay then explain to me how CoC affects Luffy or Doflamingo in a fight. Cracking a mountain is irrelevant in 1 on 1 fight.



Yeah I do mean 'those' two little encounters because it portrays Doflamingo as superior to Luffy when he's healthy and stop making excuses for Luffy if it was any other character you wouldn't be defending them. Fact is when Doflamingo was healthy the only time Luffy landed a hit was when Law assisted in a strategy which involved shambles and a red hawk.

Crocodile and Rob Lucci were both depicted as vastly more powerful than Luffy and he still defeated them on his own in the end, so there is no reason to believe that Luffy can't beat Doflamingo, also Luffy beat Crocodile while poisoned and badly injured.

As for the Red Hawk thing, clearly you need to go back and reread large sections of the manga, Luffy only needed Law's help because Doflamingo was using a human shield to stop Luffy's attacks at the time, he needed Law to get around it.

Clearly you fail to understand that a villain is almost always depicted as stronger than the hero in fiction, its called suspense.

Law failed miserably to kill Doflamingo and bring down his organization and he had a life time to do it, Luffy and the Strawhats van guarded a revolution that brought him down and it only took them a day.

Once again their is no reason to believe that Law will be Luffy's Whitebeard other than poor speculation, as Law doesn't fit any of the requirements, Whitebeard took his own revenge and he didn't need to depend on his 'rival' to do it.

Whitebeard didn't need the King of the Pirates and they were enemies, Law has been completely dependent on the Strawhat pirates for his entire revenge scheme, even his original plan required them.

Also Law has been saved by Luffy twice, and Luffy was saved by Law during the War arc, Luffy won't fight Law seriously or view him as an enemy, Law is simply claiming they are rivals because he is to proud to admit Luffy is his friend.

Whitebeard and the King of the Pirates were mortal enemies.

Law do damage to Doflamingo? He sewed his organs back up and shrugged it off like it was nothing, Luffy had to intervene.

And yes King's Haki matters, or Doflamingo and Luffy wouldn't be using it against each other.

Also you claim that its only speculation, yet earlier you were claiming that Luffy would never have hit Doflamingo period if Law hadn't injured him. Funny how fast you changed one of your arguments.

Nobody misses at point blank range, and you can't dodge when trading blows with someone, anyone who knows how fighting works knows this.


I have destroyed every argument you have made and all you are doing is ignoring the entire structure of how the manga works.
 
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saw2097

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Surefire way to never be taken seriously again

I would love to hear your counter argument, assuming you even have one and aren't just trying to spite me because you can't back him up.

All you have done is shown you have nothing left to argue with and just want to insult people and throw a tantrum.
 
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silmarill

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How can u be so sure Luffy is no match for Doflamingo?
I've already told it, Law is the only one who fought Doffy on his own long enough (2times)
First Doflamingo low diffed Law, but after the latest chapters he proved he can get him to high difficulty.
That's a big difference. I'm sure people never would have thought Law could give him a run for his money after his first beating.(I am one of them)But here people are makign the same mistake and underestimating Luffy like he were a baby when his fighting time against Doffy was 10 times shorter than Law's. If Law can prove he is much more of a match in his second fight why is it so hard to believe the same for Luffy who btw did not even have a 'fight' at the same scale as Law had
 
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Punk Hazard

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I would love to hear your counter argument, assuming you even have one and aren't just trying to spite me because you can't back him up.

All you have done is shown you have nothing left to argue and just want to insult people.
Sure thing.
Based on what grounds is Law going to be Luffy's Whitebeard?

Show the proof from the manga, that is purely speculation and completely made up.

Whitebeard was enemies with the King of the Pirates, he wasn't rescued twice in one day by the King of the Pirates and he didn't need him to take his revenge.

In fact the fact that Law saved Luffy during the War is further proof that he isn't Luffy's Whitebeard, Whitebeard would not have done the same for the King of the Pirates and Luffy doesn't consider people who save his life enemies.

Luffy has many real rivals such as Blackbeard, heck Kid is more likely to be Luffy's Whitebeard as they are going to end up fighting each other seriously.

Whitebeard and the Pirate King were enemies, but Luffy and Law are friends, that right there completely invalidates Law being Luffy's Whitebeard.



Crocodile and Rob Lucci were both depicted as vastly more powerful than Luffy and he still defeated them on his own in the end, so there is no reason to believe that Luffy can't beat Doflamingo, also Luffy beat Crocodile while poisoned and badly injured.

As for the Red Hawk thing, clearly you need to go back and reread large sections of the manga, Luffy only needed Law's help because Doflamingo was using a human shield to stop Luffy's attacks at the time, he needed Law to get around it.

Clearly you fail to understand that a villain is almost always depicted as stronger than the hero in fiction, its called suspense.

Law failed miserably to kill Doflamingo and bring down his organization and he had a life time to do it, Luffy and the Strawhats van guarded a revolution that brought him down and it only took them a day.

Once again their is no reason to believe that Law will be Luffy's Whitebeard other than poor speculation, as Law doesn't fit any of the requirements, Whitebeard took his own revenge and he didn't need to depend on his 'rival' to do it.

Whitebeard didn't need the King of the Pirates and they were enemies, Law has been completely dependent on the Strawhat pirates for his entire revenge scheme, even his original plan required them.

Also Law has been saved by Luffy twice, and Luffy was saved by Law during the War arc, Luffy won't fight Law seriously or view him as an enemy, Law is simply claiming they are rivals because he is to proud to admit Luffy is his friend.

Whitebeard and the King of the Pirates were mortal enemies.

Law do damage to Doflamingo? He sewed his organs back up and shrugged it off like it was nothing, Luffy had to intervene.

And yes King's Haki matters, or Doflamingo and Luffy wouldn't be using it against each other.

Also you claim that its only speculation, yet earlier you were claiming that Luffy would never have hit Doflamingo period if Law hadn't injured him. Funny how fast you changed one of your arguments.

Nobody misses at point blank range, and you can't dodge when trading blows with someone, anyone who knows how fighting works knows this.


I have destroyed every argument you have made and all you are doing is ignoring the entire structure of how the manga works.

1. Let's start with the Law/Whitebeard thing.
Roger was portrayed to have three main rivals during his era: Garp, Whitebeard and Shiki. During Sabaody, the concept of pirates competing for the title of Pirate King was fully introduced. We knew before that Luffy would have to compete with other pirates, but so far, the enemies he fought beforehand were either not pirates(Lucci, Enel, Aokiji, Smokr) or pirates who had something that wasn't being Pirate King as the basis of conflict between them and Luffy(Crocodile, Buggy, Foxy, Bellamy). It wasn't until the Supernova that we fully got the concept of Luffy competing for the title of Pirate King. At this same time, two pirates in particular were stressed to be standing beside Luffy: Kidd and Law. The three of them can be seen as parallels to Roger, Whitebeard and Shiki. Roger and Luffy don't need to be explained.

That leaves Kidd and Law with Shiki and Whitebeard. Kidd is assumed to be Shiki's parallel due to the fact that they are both portrayed to be dangerous hotheads. Both are overly violent, both voiced disgust towards the World Government(further emphasized by the fact that Law hasn't). Both Kidd and Shiki received radical prosthetics due to injuries, with Kidd having an entire metal arm and Shiki having his swords and steering wheel lodged in his head. Shiki and Kidd both also have wild hair designs, while Law-Luffy/Whitebeard-Roger have simpler designs. Shiki's epithet is the Golden Lion, while as a child, Kidd's hair greatly resembled a lion's mane.

Law can be compared to Whitebeard through both connections, as we could with Kidd, and the process of elimination, with them being the only two left. Both Law and Kidd are Paramecia users, with Whitebeard and Shiki also being Paramecia users, furthering the connection. Both Law and Whitebeard have been portrayed to have connections to the concept of family. Whitebeard said what he sought most was a family, while Law sought out the crew that considered themselves a family. Not only that, but the lost of Law's family, both biological and Corazon, greatly shaped who he is today. While the concept of family isn't the same for both characters, the fact that both of them have had an emphasis of the concept wrapped around their characters is still a connection. Whitebeard was also stated to have the strongest fruit in the Paramecia class. Similarly, Law's Paramecia fruit was stated to be called the ¨Ultimate Fruit¨ before. While considered enemies, Roger and Whitebeard actually got along relatively, as they were able to drink and talk together. Conversely, Shiki and Roger were shown to have a completely hostile relationship towards each other, with no signs of mutual respect or anything close to civility together. Similarly, Luffy and Law have become allies(Law does not consider them friends), but Shiki and Luffy have had their every interaction so far have some kind of negative side to it(with Luffy being pissed that Kidd tried to order him around). While Shiki/Kidd are hotheaded and Luffy/Roger are wild, Law/Whitebeard has been shown to be the calm one of the trio, both being far less erratic than the trios of their generations. Whitebeard was also shown to be cautious, as shown when he snuck into Marineford underwater. Law was shown to have the same level of caution and covert thinking with a submarine ship and not charging into the New World. Both Law and Whitebeard were shown to be open to complete strangers joining their crew, with Jean Bart and Ace respectively.

You keep saying that Whitebeard didn't need his rival's help, and that when he needed something done, he just went and did it himself as a rebuttal to a parallel between Law and Whitebeard. Thing is, you're vastly incorrect. At the War of the Best, Whitebeard didn't show up by himself. He didn't show up with just his crew. He showed up with a fleet. His fleet considered of other pirate crews who agreed to help Whitebeard. Sure, it wasn't his rival he allied with, but that doesn't matter. Whitebeard stressed that he can't do everything on his own; he had several panels dedicated to this after Crocodile yelled at him, calling himself ¨one man with one heart. I can go find them if you need some refreshing, but it shows that Whitebeard accepted that he would need help to do big things, so Law asking Luffy for help does not defeat the parallel, it in fact just strengthens it, as both acknowledge their limits and have no problem asking for help with big things.

Crocodile was never depicted as vastly stronger than Luffy. Crocodile wasn't beating Luffy because he was that much stronger and faster or anything, but simply because Luffy lacked the ability to touch his body. Crocodile wasn't winning because his strength, speed or combat ability were greater, but simply because he was a Logia. Once the Logia aspect was gone, Luffy was able to handily keep up with him. As for Rob Lucci, Luffy and Lucci were shown to be in the same league from the very beginning of their second and last combat encounter. The entire fight, they were neck and neck. Luffy's fight cannot be compared to his fight with Doffy because once Luffy got a taste of Lucci's fighting style and came back, he was able to push Lucci completely on his own using brute strength, but when he got a taste of Doffy's and came back, Doffy was still able to overwhelm him again with brute force and skill. Unlike Luffy's case with Crocodile, it wasn't because of a special nature of the enemies powers like being a Logia, it was pure power difference.

TheHokage is right. Luffy has been unable to land a single blow on Doffy that didn't happen due to Law's aid in some way. Doffy used Bellamy as a human shield for a basic kick. A string clone that was is inferior to Doffy was able to swat away a Gear 2 punch. Not punch, kick, or dodge, swat it away. If you really think Doffy needed to use Bellamy as a human shield for that, you're sorely mistaken. Doffy could have dodged, grabbed, or even slice Luffy's leg off. He chose to use Bellamy out of pure sadism.

The Strawhats have been able to do this revolution, yes, but also with the aid of the Tontottas and Violet and Sabo, not to mention the other Colosseum fighters. If it was just the Strawhats alone, they would have failed miserably. If it was just the Strawhats and Law, they would have still miserably failed, just by a little less.

Are you serious? Doffy may have sewn his organs back together, but he's still in a lot of pain. He didn't shrug it off like it was nothing, he was dropped to his knees and then collapsed on the ground unable to move until his strings went into effect. Granted, Luffy's kick also did damage, but Gamma Knife ****ed him up greatly.

¨You can't miss at point blank range.¨
Except we've seen several cases of this throughout the manga? But sure, whatever you say.
 

saw2097

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Sure thing.


1. Let's start with the Law/Whitebeard thing.
Roger was portrayed to have three main rivals during his era: Garp, Whitebeard and Shiki. During Sabaody, the concept of pirates competing for the title of Pirate King was fully introduced. We knew before that Luffy would have to compete with other pirates, but so far, the enemies he fought beforehand were either not pirates(Lucci, Enel, Aokiji, Smokr) or pirates who had something that wasn't being Pirate King as the basis of conflict between them and Luffy(Crocodile, Buggy, Foxy, Bellamy). It wasn't until the Supernova that we fully got the concept of Luffy competing for the title of Pirate King. At this same time, two pirates in particular were stressed to be standing beside Luffy: Kidd and Law. The three of them can be seen as parallels to Roger, Whitebeard and Shiki. Roger and Luffy don't need to be explained.

That leaves Kidd and Law with Shiki and Whitebeard. Kidd is assumed to be Shiki's parallel due to the fact that they are both portrayed to be dangerous hotheads. Both are overly violent, both voiced disgust towards the World Government(further emphasized by the fact that Law hasn't). Both Kidd and Shiki received radical prosthetics due to injuries, with Kidd having an entire metal arm and Shiki having his swords and steering wheel lodged in his head. Shiki and Kidd both also have wild hair designs, while Law-Luffy/Whitebeard-Roger have simpler designs. Shiki's epithet is the Golden Lion, while as a child, Kidd's hair greatly resembled a lion's mane.

Law can be compared to Whitebeard through both connections, as we could with Kidd, and the process of elimination, with them being the only two left. Both Law and Kidd are Paramecia users, with Whitebeard and Shiki also being Paramecia users, furthering the connection. Both Law and Whitebeard have been portrayed to have connections to the concept of family. Whitebeard said what he sought most was a family, while Law sought out the crew that considered themselves a family. Not only that, but the lost of Law's family, both biological and Corazon, greatly shaped who he is today. While the concept of family isn't the same for both characters, the fact that both of them have had an emphasis of the concept wrapped around their characters is still a connection. Whitebeard was also stated to have the strongest fruit in the Paramecia class. Similarly, Law's Paramecia fruit was stated to be called the ¨Ultimate Fruit¨ before. While considered enemies, Roger and Whitebeard actually got along relatively, as they were able to drink and talk together. Conversely, Shiki and Roger were shown to have a completely hostile relationship towards each other, with no signs of mutual respect or anything close to civility together. Similarly, Luffy and Law have become allies(Law does not consider them friends), but Shiki and Luffy have had their every interaction so far have some kind of negative side to it(with Luffy being pissed that Kidd tried to order him around). While Shiki/Kidd are hotheaded and Luffy/Roger are wild, Law/Whitebeard has been shown to be the calm one of the trio, both being far less erratic than the trios of their generations. Whitebeard was also shown to be cautious, as shown when he snuck into Marineford underwater. Law was shown to have the same level of caution and covert thinking with a submarine ship and not charging into the New World. Both Law and Whitebeard were shown to be open to complete strangers joining their crew, with Jean Bart and Ace respectively.

You keep saying that Whitebeard didn't need his rival's help, and that when he needed something done, he just went and did it himself as a rebuttal to a parallel between Law and Whitebeard. Thing is, you're vastly incorrect. At the War of the Best, Whitebeard didn't show up by himself. He didn't show up with just his crew. He showed up with a fleet. His fleet considered of other pirate crews who agreed to help Whitebeard. Sure, it wasn't his rival he allied with, but that doesn't matter. Whitebeard stressed that he can't do everything on his own; he had several panels dedicated to this after Crocodile yelled at him, calling himself ¨one man with one heart. I can go find them if you need some refreshing, but it shows that Whitebeard accepted that he would need help to do big things, so Law asking Luffy for help does not defeat the parallel, it in fact just strengthens it, as both acknowledge their limits and have no problem asking for help with big things.

Crocodile was never depicted as vastly stronger than Luffy. Crocodile wasn't beating Luffy because he was that much stronger and faster or anything, but simply because Luffy lacked the ability to touch his body. Crocodile wasn't winning because his strength, speed or combat ability were greater, but simply because he was a Logia. Once the Logia aspect was gone, Luffy was able to handily keep up with him. As for Rob Lucci, Luffy and Lucci were shown to be in the same league from the very beginning of their second and last combat encounter. The entire fight, they were neck and neck. Luffy's fight cannot be compared to his fight with Doffy because once Luffy got a taste of Lucci's fighting style and came back, he was able to push Lucci completely on his own using brute strength, but when he got a taste of Doffy's and came back, Doffy was still able to overwhelm him again with brute force and skill. Unlike Luffy's case with Crocodile, it wasn't because of a special nature of the enemies powers like being a Logia, it was pure power difference.

TheHokage is right. Luffy has been unable to land a single blow on Doffy that didn't happen due to Law's aid in some way. Doffy used Bellamy as a human shield for a basic kick. A string clone that was is inferior to Doffy was able to swat away a Gear 2 punch. Not punch, kick, or dodge, swat it away. If you really think Doffy needed to use Bellamy as a human shield for that, you're sorely mistaken. Doffy could have dodged, grabbed, or even slice Luffy's leg off. He chose to use Bellamy out of pure sadism.

The Strawhats have been able to do this revolution, yes, but also with the aid of the Tontottas and Violet and Sabo, not to mention the other Colosseum fighters. If it was just the Strawhats alone, they would have failed miserably. If it was just the Strawhats and Law, they would have still miserably failed, just by a little less.

Are you serious? Doffy may have sewn his organs back together, but he's still in a lot of pain. He didn't shrug it off like it was nothing, he was dropped to his knees and then collapsed on the ground unable to move until his strings went into effect. Granted, Luffy's kick also did damage, but Gamma Knife ****ed him up greatly.

¨You can't miss at point blank range.¨
Except we've seen several cases of this throughout the manga? But sure, whatever you say.

1. Out of all the people that showed up to help Whitebeard at Marineford, how many of them were his legitimate rivals, all of them respected him and treated him as a father, so this argument is pointless.

He called on allies and friends to help him (who once again, he views as his own children), not rivals so please go back and reread that entire arc.

Whitebeard and the King of the Pirates tried to kill each other on many occasions. So Law is disqualified as Luffy's equivalent of Whitebeard, as Whitebeard would call on his friends for help not his mortal enemy.

And Luffy and Law are friends and allies, the fact that they have saved each other proves that. And Luffy would never fight Law seriously and Law is on his way to viewing Luffy as a friend as well, Whitebeard and the King of the Pirates would have killed each other in a heart beat.

If you go back and reread every arc, you would see that once Luffy starts calling someone a friend its permanent, regardless of if the person in question likes it or not. Law can deny it all he wants, but Luffy is making him his friend.

And if you try to say that Buggy was Whitebeard's rival, I am going to assume you are joking.

Whitebeard's rivals are the other three Yonko and the only one that intervened was Red Haired Shanks and if you recall, Whitebeard originally told him to stay out of the situation, he intervened because he wanted to stop the fighting and he threatened both sides so he wasn't siding with Whitebeard.

2. Crocodile not stronger than Luffy? Is that why even when Luffy could counter his ability he got stomped a second time? Or what about Rob Lucci he stomped Luffy the first time they fought? Should I keep going?

Should I also go on to list all the other works of fiction that have villains that appear to be stronger than the hero only to get beaten one on one by him or her?

In fact its pretty standard in fiction for villains to be stronger than the hero, and then they beat them anyway against all possible odds, its called suspense.

3. Please do tell all of us how you dodge when you are nose to nose with someone and trading punches?

And just because we didn't see Luffy do it, before now doesn't prove he can't. Particularly since this is the first time in the entire arc they have fought nose to nose and had a punching match. Particularly since trying to dodge and punch someone at the same time is impossible when they are right next to you. That's why people jump back and keep a distance, so they can dodge.

If Doflamingo was in that much pain he would be bent over and unable to even move.
 
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Punk Hazard

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1. Out of all the people that showed up to help Whitebeard at Marineford, how many of them were his legitimate rivals, all of them respected him and treated him as a father, so this argument is pointless.

He called on allies and friends to help him, not rivals so please go back and reread that entire arc.

Whitebeard and the King of the Pirates tried to kill each other on many occations. So Law is disqualified as Luffy's equivalent of Whitebeard, as Whitebeard would call on his friends for help not his mortal enemy.

And if you try to say Buggy, that would just be ridiculous.

2. Crocodile not stronger than Luffy? Is that why even when Luffy could counter his ability he got stomped a second time? Or what about Rob Lucci he stomped Luffy the first time they fought? Should I keep going?

Should I also go on to list all the other works of fiction that have villains that appear to be stronger than the hero only to get beaten one on one by him or her?

3. Please do tell all of us how you dodge when you are nose to nose with someone and trading punches?

And just because we didn't see Luffy do it, before now doesn't prove he can't. Particularly since this is the first time in the entire arc they have fought nose to nose and had a punching match. Particularly since trying to dodge and punch someone at the same time is impossible when they are right next to you. That's why people jump back and keep a distance, so they can dodge.

If Doflamingo was in pain he would be bent over and unable to even move.

1. The argument is that Whitebeard accepted help when it was offered to him, same as Law. Doesn't matter if there are rivals or not. Did Whitebeard not accept help from Crocodile, an enemy?

Roger and Garp also killed each other many times, but Roger stated he trusted Garp just as much as any of his crewmembers. This, plus the fact that Roger and Whitebeard chatted with each other and traded drinks shows that their relationship wasn't completely hostile(just like Law and Luffy)as you are trying to make it seem. Roger and Whitebeard were never said to be ¨mortal enemies¨ either.

You're grasping to this ¨Whitebeard never asked Roger for help¨ thing. Here's a tip: You can't refute a parallel based on differences. Parallels in characters are not meant to mean the characters are identical, there will be differences between them, otherwise it's just rehashing a character. You can point out 100 differences between Law and Whitebeard, as long as the connections are solid, the parallel can still exist.

2. No, Crocodile wasn't stronger than Luffy, seeing as Luffy was able to knock down Crocodile and actually beat the shit out of him once his Logia powers were gone. Like I said, Crocodile didn't overwhelm Luffy because of superior speed, combat ability, physical strength, or anything like that, but because of the nature of his fruit. Doffy, on the other hand, didn't have some special nature to his fruit, he was able to overwhelm Luffy in speed and physical strength.

I already explained why his fight with Lucci also isn't comparable, seeing as Luffy and Lucci were portrayed as even from the very beginning of and throughout their second and final encounter, while Luffy was still portrayed as inferior to Doffy on his own during their second and final encounter, only able to land hits because of teamwork.

3. Caesar dodging Luffy at close range[ ]
Luffy dodging Caesar at close range[ ][ ]
Sanji dodging Vergo at close range[ ]
Doffy dodging Law[ ]

4. The fact still remains that the only blows Luffy has been able to land on Doffy have been courtesy of teamwork. It's not just a coincidence that Doffy was capable of evading and countering every one of Luffy's blows when Law was not involved.

5. Do you even know how pain works? In a fight, pain doesn't just go away after a few seconds. It remains during the entire fight, especially if you're constantly taking blows or received permanent, radical damage.
 

saw2097

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1. The argument is that Whitebeard accepted help when it was offered to him, same as Law. Doesn't matter if there are rivals or not. Did Whitebeard not accept help from Crocodile, an enemy?

Roger and Garp also killed each other many times, but Roger stated he trusted Garp just as much as any of his crewmembers. This, plus the fact that Roger and Whitebeard chatted with each other and traded drinks shows that their relationship wasn't completely hostile(just like Law and Luffy)as you are trying to make it seem. Roger and Whitebeard were never said to be ¨mortal enemies¨ either.

You're grasping to this ¨Whitebeard never asked Roger for help¨ thing. Here's a tip: You can't refute a parallel based on differences. Parallels in characters are not meant to mean the characters are identical, there will be differences between them, otherwise it's just rehashing a character. You can point out 100 differences between Law and Whitebeard, as long as the connections are solid, the parallel can still exist.

2. No, Crocodile wasn't stronger than Luffy, seeing as Luffy was able to knock down Crocodile and actually beat the shit out of him once his Logia powers were gone. Like I said, Crocodile didn't overwhelm Luffy because of superior speed, combat ability, physical strength, or anything like that, but because of the nature of his fruit. Doffy, on the other hand, didn't have some special nature to his fruit, he was able to overwhelm Luffy in speed and physical strength.

I already explained why his fight with Lucci also isn't comparable, seeing as Luffy and Lucci were portrayed as even from the very beginning of and throughout their second and final encounter, while Luffy was still portrayed as inferior to Doffy on his own during their second and final encounter, only able to land hits because of teamwork.

3. Caesar dodging Luffy at close range[ ]
Luffy dodging Caesar at close range[ ][ ]
Sanji dodging Vergo at close range[ ]
Doffy dodging Law[ ]

4. The fact still remains that the only blows Luffy has been able to land on Doffy have been courtesy of teamwork. It's not just a coincidence that Doffy was capable of evading and countering every one of Luffy's blows when Law was not involved.

5. Do you even know how pain works? In a fight, pain doesn't just go away after a few seconds. It remains during the entire fight, especially if you're constantly taking blows or received permanent, radical damage.

1. Oh really, is that why Crocodile was trying to kill him? And made it clear he wasn't helping Whitebeard? And wanted to spite the Navy while he was at it?

He was there because Luffy brought him, Whitebeard didn't ask him to come there to help.

And even then, its a very one sided rivalry, Crocodile was no threat to Whitebeard.

The only other two pirates that tried to kill him were Blackbeard and the guy who thought Whitebeard betrayed him. And that guy was willing to die to make up for it.

As for Garp, he trusted him because he knew he was honorable and he wouldn't kill Ace for just being his son.

And he was dying, he really didn't have many options.

2. Did you even read the fight, Crocodile and Rob Lucci creamed Luffy. Now you are trying to rewrite the manga.

3. Caesar is made of gas and has such abilities. And neither Vergo nor Law were having a punching match with the other one at the time, haven't you ever seen to people fight before, you can dodge if that's the only thing you are trying to do, but at point blank range like that, try fighting extensively and see how much dodging you can do.

4. The only blow needed Law because Doflamingo was using a human shield, and there is no proof that Law's attack helped here.

5. Well clearly Doflamingo has a way of dealing with the pain, as he isn't showing any further signs of being bothered by it. Actually he wouldn't even be able to talk or trade blows period.
 
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loj

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I really don't know I like them both Law even more but well Luffy takes this one.
 

Punk Hazard

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1. Oh really, is that why Crocodile was trying to kill him? And made it clear he wasn't helping Whitebeard? And wanted to spite the Navy while he was at it?

He was there because Luffy brought him, Whitebeard didn't ask him to come there to help.

The only other two pirates that tried to kill him were Blackbeard and the guy who thought Whitebeard betrayed him. And that guy was willing to die to make up for it.

As for Garp, he trusted him because he knew he was honorable and he wouldn't kill Ace for just being his son.

2. Did you even read the fight, Crocodile and Rob Lucci creamed Luffy. Now you are trying to rewrite the manga.

3. Caesar is made of gas and has such abilities. And neither Vergo nor Law were having a punching match with the other one at the time, haven't you ever seen to people fight before, you can dodge if that's the only thing you are trying to do, but at point blank range like that, try fighting extensively and see how much dodging you can do.

4. The only blow needed Law because Doflamingo was using a human shield, and there is no proof that Law's attack helped here.

5. Well clearly Doflamingo has a way of dealing with the pain, as he isn't showing any further signs of being bothered by it. Actually he wouldn't even be able to talk or trade blows period.

1. Doesn't matter, Crocodile still helped Whitebeard despite being enemies, and Whitebeard accepted it.

2. No, they didn't. The formula for Luffy's fight is: They have an initial clash where Luffy loses because he doesn't understand the opponent's abilities. He comes back later with a better understanding, fights, and wins. With Crocodile, once Luffy got full understanding and his Logia intangibility was gone, it was clearly shown that Crocodile did not have superior combat, speed or strength to Luffy. When Luffy came back to Lucci, they were neck and neck the entire time, throwing brute force at each other until one keeled over for good. The difference between these two instances and this instance with Doffy is that once Luffy got a taste of and understood Doffy's abilities and combat style better, he was still being overwhelmed due to Doffy's own strength and speed. Doffy was still portrayed as superior to Luffy. This only changed once Doffy received wounds that pushed him right to the brink of death, wounds that only happened because of teamwork.

3. Doesn't matter. You asked for instances of someone dodging in close range, and I provided them. Don't try to find excuses for it now.

4. Right. Having your organs torn apart, then blasted again, then forcibly pulled together and pierced isn't gonna affect how your physical condition whatsoever. Genius.

5. Yeah, it's called tolerance. Just because he isn't groaning and screaming every single second doesn't mean the pain has gone away. Pain doesn't mean Doffy won't be able to fight or talk period. Like, do you even realize what you're trying to say right now is that Doffy was pushed to the brink of death because of multiple organs being destroyed, and that is having no effect on him whatsoever after a few seconds? You sound completely ridiculous right now.
 

saw2097

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1. Doesn't matter, Crocodile still helped Whitebeard despite being enemies, and Whitebeard accepted it.

2. No, they didn't. The formula for Luffy's fight is: They have an initial clash where Luffy loses because he doesn't understand the opponent's abilities. He comes back later with a better understanding, fights, and wins. With Crocodile, once Luffy got full understanding and his Logia intangibility was gone, it was clearly shown that Crocodile did not have superior combat, speed or strength to Luffy. When Luffy came back to Lucci, they were neck and neck the entire time, throwing brute force at each other until one keeled over for good. The difference between these two instances and this instance with Doffy is that once Luffy got a taste of and understood Doffy's abilities and combat style better, he was still being overwhelmed due to Doffy's own strength and speed. Doffy was still portrayed as superior to Luffy. This only changed once Doffy received wounds that pushed him right to the brink of death, wounds that only happened because of teamwork.

3. Doesn't matter. You asked for instances of someone dodging in close range, and I provided them. Don't try to find excuses for it now.

4. Right. Having your organs torn apart, then blasted again, then forcibly pulled together and pierced isn't gonna affect how your physical condition whatsoever. Genius.

5. Yeah, it's called tolerance. Just because he isn't groaning and screaming every single second doesn't mean the pain has gone away. Pain doesn't mean Doffy won't be able to fight or talk period. Like, do you even realize what you're trying to say right now is that Doffy was pushed to the brink of death because of multiple organs being destroyed, and that is having no effect on him whatsoever after a few seconds? You sound completely ridiculous right now.

1. Oh so Law is trying to kill Luffy and Doflamingo at the same time? Because that was what Crocodile was trying to do. You are grasping at straws on the issue.

2. Rob Lucci defeated Luffy the first time without even using his Devil Fruit, and Luffy lost the second time despite knowing how Crocodile's power worked and he just barely won the third fight and nearly died. Once again you are grasping at straws.



3. Yes, it seems that unusual cases are the only ones you can find, that just barely fit the bill.

4. Being shot stabbed and having your arm torn off can cause you to die in real life, yet Law is still breathing despite his blood being on the floor, he should have blacked out by now yet he was able to attack Trebol.

Heck Luffy has been in rough shape yet is still able to fight effectively, as do many other characters, despite having injuries that would kill or leave you unconscious in real life.

Using real world scenarios in a manga where people can survive being shot directly by cannons, isn't going to add up.

But I suggest we simply drop the debate until next chapter, as clearly I have upset you, and this is getting out of hand.
 
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Punk Hazard

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1. Oh so Law is trying to kill Luffy and Doflamingo at the same time? Because that was what Crocodile was trying to do. You are grasping at straws on the issue.

2. Rob Lucci defeated Luffy the first time without even using his Devil Fruit, and Luffy lost the second time despite knowing how Crocodile's power worked and he just barely won the third fight and nearly died. Once again you are grasping at straws.



3. Yes, it seems that unusual cases are the only ones you can find, that just barely fit the bill.

4. Being shot stabbed and having your arm torn off can cause you to die in real life, yet Law is still breathing despite his blood being on the floor, he should have blacked out by now yet he was able to attack Trebol.

Heck Luffy has been in rough shape yet is still able to fight effectively, as do many other characters, despite having injuries that would kill or leave you unconscious in real life.

Using real world scenarios in a manga where people can survive being shot directly by cannons, isn't going to add up.

But I suggest we simply drop the debate until next chapter, as clearly I have upset you, and this is getting out of hand.

1. When did I say Law was gonna try to kill Luffy? You said Law and Whitebeard aren't parallels because Whitebeard wouldn't seek help from an enemy. But Crocodile is an example of an enemy helping him, and he showed no problem towards it. Besides, as I mentioned before, pointing differences doesn't make the parallel nonexistent, as parallel characters are still supposed to be different characters.

2. You didn't even refute what I said. I said the formula for Luffy's fights is losing initially, then coming back to win once he's seen how his opponent fights. That's what happened with Lucci. That's what happened with Crocodile. However, this situation with Doflamingo is not the same. Even when he came back with a good understanding of Doflamingo's powers, Doflamingo was still able to physically overwhelm Luffy, and outmaneuver him. The only time after Luffy was able to stand landing hits on Doflamingo was after someone else pushed him to the edge of death.

3. You're reaching. You said you can't dodge in close range, then when I show you people dodging in close range, you dismiss it without a solid basis.

4. That's because OP characters are superhuman. What would kill us slowly just slows them down, and what would kill us instantly kills them slowly. Ace said he knew he was gonna die because his organs were burned, that shows that even some of the strongest OP characters will be greatly hindered if their organs are destroyed, Doflamingo is no exception.

We've seen One Piece be hindered by their pain before, such as Whitebeard when Ace was about to be executed and when Rob Lucci was about to hit Luffy with Madara.

You keep responding as though I said being in pain will stop Doffy from being able to fight. Doffy will still be able to fight, but he's not gonna be able to perform as good as he can in top physical condition. That's common sense.

I didn't use any real world scenarios though?

I'm not upset at all. I sound no more upset than you do, you're just reaching with another ad hominem attempt, and it doesn't make your argument look any better.
 

TheHokage

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Cause Rob Lucci did not seem superior to Luffy when they first met
Do u think Doflamingo can 'neg' Smoker because of their one and only encounter? Fact of the matter is Law is the only person who fought Doflamingo long enough to classify the difference of their strength. We can't impossibly grade how fair Luffy would do based on some puny exchanges he did not even seem to feel
Well I gotta go eat with family for Easter

Happy Easter.-. to ya all

Rob Lucci was superior at that time...it wasn't until gear 2nd and 3rd until Luffy evened it out. Luffy's had numerous occasions now against Doflamingo to show us something but he hasn't which has cost him to be defeated.

I think a healthy Doflamingo could mid diff a 'healthy' Smoker, Law and Luffy in a 1v1 scenario. Yes Law is the only one and considering his portrayal is similar to Luffy's in strength I think it gives us a good gauge on their combat abilities.

Correct we can't gauge the outcome of fights with little encounters but it does set the pace of the fight and how it would go for example we didn't need to see the end of Vergo vs Sanji to know Vergo would have won if the fight continued.

Crocodile and Rob Lucci were both depicted as vastly more powerful than Luffy and he still defeated them on his own in the end, so there is no reason to believe that Luffy can't beat Doflamingo, also Luffy beat Crocodile while poisoned and badly injured.

Read above. Luffy actually showed to be more combat proficient than Crocodile.

As for the Red Hawk thing, clearly you need to go back and reread large sections of the manga, Luffy only needed Law's help because Doflamingo was using a human shield to stop Luffy's attacks at the time, he needed Law to get around it.

No not really at the time Luffy and Law were fighting their own respective Doflamingo (Luffy's was actually a clone) Luffy charged at the Doflamingo who wasn't using Bellamy as a clone in fact he was charging in after Law before the shambles.

Clearly you fail to understand that a villain is almost always depicted as stronger than the hero in fiction, its called suspense.

Sorry Oda. While what you're saying is good in theory and all it's not really true in regards to One Piece is it? I mean was Hody decipted as stronger than Luffy? Was Buggy? Was Caesar? Clearly you fail to understand that you can't just assume your way of interpreting the story is correct when evidence actually contradicts your philosophy.

Law failed miserably to kill Doflamingo and bring down his organization and he had a life time to do it, Luffy and the Strawhats van guarded a revolution that brought him down and it only took them a day.

Yeah because he actually had a plan and that was to get Kaidou to take Dolfamingo down because he knew he wasn't strong enough. Not to mention had Law not been there to help Sanji, Nami, Brook, Chopper and Luffy would be dead courtesy of Doflamingo.

Once again their is no reason to believe that Law will be Luffy's Whitebeard other than poor speculation, as Law doesn't fit any of the requirements, Whitebeard took his own revenge and he didn't need to depend on his 'rival' to do it.

Whitebeard didn't need the King of the Pirates and they were enemies, Law has been completely dependent on the Strawhat pirates for his entire revenge scheme, even his original plan required them.

Also Law has been saved by Luffy twice, and Luffy was saved by Law during the War arc, Luffy won't fight Law seriously or view him as an enemy, Law is simply claiming they are rivals because he is to proud to admit Luffy is his friend.

Whitebeard and the King of the Pirates were mortal enemies

I fail to see how this is relevant to my point but okay...

Not to mention I don't care whether or not you think Law parallels Whitebeard, anyway Roger and Whitebeard were enemies to an extent, enemies wouldn't sit down and have a drink together while having a 'friendly' chat enemies wouldn't be willing to tell each other where Raftel is. Not to mention it was obvious Whitebeard and Roger's crew were close otherwise Rayleigh wouldn't have shed a tear after his death. (To be honest I'm not sure if this is an Anime Scene or mange scene I'm sure it happened in the manga just can't be bothered to search for it).

Anyway back to my main point. Luffy and Law are enemies right now their goal is the same so they are allies nothing more nothing less despite how Luffy views it.

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Law states it best they are both pirates and if Luffy or Law got in the way of each other's goal you can bet they would fight about it.

And yes King's Haki matters, or Doflamingo and Luffy wouldn't be using it against each other

While it's all good an all that you can repeat yourself but again try actually responding to what I said. How did CoC affect either Doflamingo or Luffy in the fight?

Also you claim that its only speculation, yet earlier you were claiming that Luffy would never have hit Doflamingo period if Law hadn't injured him. Funny how fast you changed one of your arguments.

Nobody misses at point blank range, and you can't dodge when trading blows with someone, anyone who knows how fighting works knows this.

My argument hasn't changed...not one bit.

Luffy hasn't shown the ability to hit a healthy Doflamingo without Law's assistance in someway or form. Not to mention like Rikerslade showed you there are moments when characters dodged point blank hits Luffy dodging Rebecca who tried to hit him at point blank range is just one of those many moments.

Now how ironic that you say this -

Using real world scenarios in a manga where people can survive being shot directly by cannons, isn't going to add up.

Yet then say this -

anyone who knows how fighting works knows this.

Considering in this manga people can fight using fire, ice, magma, stretching their limbs etc I don't think it's a reach to say someone can dodge a point blank attack given the right scenario as I'm betting Law could if he were to teleport within his room as he was about to be hit.

I have destroyed every argument you have made and all you are doing is ignoring the entire structure of how the manga works.

No...you really haven't all your doing is coming up with excuses everytime I dispute your argument you haven't disputed one thing I've put just avoid it because you know you don't have the facts or feats within the manga to prove your 'opinion' hence the reason your trying to pass off your opinion as the right one with nothing to back it up with.
 
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