Good and detailed analysis. But, don't you think Naruto being a Pseudo Jin is too cliche' ?
I think Naruto will gain something like, mastery over all 5 elements or elemental manipulation.
Well, for Sasuke I can agree. We could also see him gain Elder Son's eyes, it would a unique powerup.
So how is Sasuke going to gain DSM? The same way Kabuto did. Kabuto lacked the body to undergo SM on his own. Orochimaru can't do it, Karin can't do it, and Suigetsu can't do it. This means that the DNA that gave Kabuto the ability to use DSM was in fact Juugo's, so gaining Juugo's cells won't give you CM, but the ability to use DSM.
But, Sasuke needs to go to Ryuuchidou Cave right???
...do you realize Madara has enough chakra to handle Senjutsu chakra due his Senju Cells, right?
You must remember that Madara has a lot of Physical + Spiritual Energy, this is the basis of chakra reserves to handle Shizen Energy... balancing Spiritual + Physical + Natural energy, that is Sage Mode.
Of course, Sasuke could have a lot of Spiritual Energy in his bloodline, but differently from Madara, he doesn't have the Senju DNA (Physical Energy) to balance the natural energy and achieve Dragon Sage Mode.
To further strongify my argument, I'd call the fact that Naruto had both Spiritual and Physical energy to achieve a seamless Sage Mode without Frog traits. In the other hand... Sasuke couldn't get rid of the wings even in part 2, meaning that his Curse Mark was an imperfect state of Sage Mode (the curse mark was the catalyst in the case of Sasuke, while myobokuzan's oil was the catalyst in the case of Naruto in his training). I'm assuming that Sasuke's chakra control is way better than Naruto's at this point, and even in this case Sasuke had these physical traits, meaning that even being perfect controlling chakra is not enough to achieve Perfect Sage Mode.
You need a quite balanced quantity of both Physical and Spiritual Energy to handle Shizen Energy.
With regards to Sasuke obtaining Senjutsu powers, it is highly likely. The manga has already established the point that Sasuke's body is compatible with Senjutsu. He is not just capable of housing Senjutsu chakra, he is fully capable of releasing it. Sasuke's surpassing of Madara will be likely primarily be linked to Senjutsu and whatever new powers result from it.
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The point I would make is that I don't think Sasuke's Senjutsu powers will come in the form of "DSM". I think that it will manifest itself as a "purified", significantly enhanced form of the curse seal.
...do you realize Madara has enough chakra to handle Senjutsu chakra due his Senju Cells, right?
You must remember that Madara has a lot of Physical + Spiritual Energy, this is the basis of chakra reserves to handle Shizen Energy... balancing Spiritual + Physical + Natural energy, that is Sage Mode.
Of course, Sasuke could have a lot of Spiritual Energy in his bloodline, but differently from Madara, he doesn't have the Senju DNA (Physical Energy) to balance the natural energy and achieve Dragon Sage Mode.
To further strongify my argument, I'd call the fact that Naruto had both Spiritual and Physical energy to achieve a seamless Sage Mode without Frog traits. In the other hand... Sasuke couldn't get rid of the wings even in part 2, meaning that his Curse Mark was an imperfect state of Sage Mode (the curse mark was the catalyst in the case of Sasuke, while myobokuzan's oil was the catalyst in the case of Naruto in his training). I'm assuming that Sasuke's chakra control is way better than Naruto's at this point, and even in this case Sasuke had these physical traits, meaning that even being perfect controlling chakra is not enough to achieve Perfect Sage Mode.
You need a quite balanced quantity of both Physical and Spiritual Energy to handle Shizen Energy.
You also have to consider that Orochimaru's chakra was mixed into the curse seal. That likely had an effect on the appearance of the users that released it.
...do you realize Madara has enough chakra to handle Senjutsu chakra due his Senju Cells, right?
You must remember that Madara has a lot of Physical + Spiritual Energy, this is the basis of chakra reserves to handle Shizen Energy... balancing Spiritual + Physical + Natural energy, that is Sage Mode.
Of course, Sasuke could have a lot of Spiritual Energy in his bloodline, but differently from Madara, he doesn't have the Senju DNA (Physical Energy) to balance the natural energy and achieve Dragon Sage Mode.
To further strongify my argument, I'd call the fact that Naruto had both Spiritual and Physical energy to achieve a seamless Sage Mode without Frog traits. In the other hand... Sasuke couldn't get rid of the wings even in part 2, meaning that his Curse Mark was an imperfect state of Sage Mode (the curse mark was the catalyst in the case of Sasuke, while myobokuzan's oil was the catalyst in the case of Naruto in his training). I'm assuming that Sasuke's chakra control is way better than Naruto's at this point, and even in this case Sasuke had these physical traits, meaning that even being perfect controlling chakra is not enough to achieve Perfect Sage Mode.
You need a quite balanced quantity of both Physical and Spiritual Energy to handle Shizen Energy.
I am not exactly certain that our interpretation of the qualifications for SM are correct mainly because of Kabuto.
Kabuto never had a large chakra pool comparable to Naruto. Kabuto implanted DNA from Juugo, Suigetsu, Orochimaru, and Karin. (chakra pool isn't that large) Though Kabuto gained all these abilities none of them would have given Kabuto reserves large enough to sustain SM (Especially since Orochimaru couldn't pull it off and Orochimaru's chakra>>> Kabuto's)
So, that's when I came to the conclusion, that it's not only the chakra, but literally the body as well which makes one able to be compatible with SM.
The only logical reason as to why Kabuto was able to gain DSM is because he gained a compatible through the act of implanting Juugo's cells. This theory is further proven by Madara. You may say that Madara gained SM, but that is in fact false. Why??? because the SM markings appear not one Madara's eyes, but on the Hashi face implanted on Madara's chest. Madara is using his Hashi cells in order to properly process natural energy rather than doing it with his own body.
Further proof lies with Orochimaru and the very reason he is after Sasuke. Have you noticed that whenever Orochimaru speaks of his interest in Sasuke he mentions, 'Sasuke's body' not his eyes. There is a reason for this. If you look on Oro's page on wikia you will find that the reason as to why Oro can't make use of SM though having learned the techs . is because his host's body is too frail to undergo the techniques.
Orochimaru is indeed facinated by the eyes of the Uchiha, but he could have gotten those eyes a long time ago from working with Danzo. Orochi wanted the perfect container one that could withstand the SM transformation and the eyes in which he idolized.
Proof:
1. Sasuke's body was able to adapt to the CM a degraded SM in the course of a couple of hours.
2. Oro became especially interested when he saw that through pure willpower Sasuke was able to manipulate the CM during the chuunin exams after having the seal for less than half a day. A feat that Anko still can't accomplish though having had the CM for years.
3. Sasuke was able to undergo a direct flesh transplant from Juugo whose cells are the trigger for Juugo's DSM/ now CM transformation.
As far as chakra levels go Sasuke from the repeated release of Susano'o and high level ninjutsu Sasuke at least has chakra levels on par with base Naruto. Balancing physical and spiritual energy does not mean that those with bias chakra can't use it otherwise BSM (yang) wouldn't exist. Balancing spiritual and physical energies is an inward process not automatic. Sasuke posses a strong body already prepped for Senjutsu and cells from Juugo which allow the transformation into DSM. Sasuke getting DSM is all ,but a done deal.
With regards to Sasuke obtaining Senjutsu powers, it is highly likely. The manga has already established the point that Sasuke's body is compatible with Senjutsu. He is not just capable of housing Senjutsu chakra, he is fully capable of releasing it. Sasuke's surpassing of Madara will be likely primarily be linked to Senjutsu and whatever new powers result from it.
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The point I would make is that I don't think Sasuke's Senjutsu powers will come in the form of "DSM". I think that it will manifest itself as a "purified", significantly enhanced form of the curse seal.
You also have to consider that Orochimaru's chakra was mixed into the curse seal. That likely had an effect on the appearance of the users that released it.
Thanks for the props, but the purified version of CM is DSM if you note the scan in my thread you will see that a Juugo stated that DSM was in fact his original ability before going to Orochimaru. CM is just a creation of Orochimaru.
Thanks for the props, but the purified version of CM is DSM if you note the scan in my thread you will see that a Juugo stated that DSM was in fact his original ability before going to Orochimaru. CM is just a creation of Orochimaru.
It seems that you're correct. Juugo refers to his ability as "Sennin Transformation" here:
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Orochimaru was incapable of getting what is referred to as the same ability:
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You are correct, a controlled "Sennin Transformation" is what Kabuto 'referred' to as "DSM".
The appearance of the fully released curse seal likely has to with the fact that Orochimaru's chakra is mixed in with it. It probably also wasn't as strong as the traditional SM because it only used a small portion of Juugo's chakra. The analogy of the curse seal being akin to the toad oil is accurate. Sasuke absorbing Nature energy directly would be a force to reckon with.
It seems that you're correct. Juugo refers to his ability as "Sennin Transformation" here:
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Orochimaru was incapable of getting what is referred to as the same ability:
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You are correct, a controlled "Sennin Transformation" is what Kabuto 'referred' to as "DSM".
The appearance of the fully released curse seal likely has to with the fact that Orochimaru's chakra is mixed in with it. It probably also wasn't as strong as the traditional SM because it only used a small portion of Juugo's chakra. The analogy of the curse seal being akin to the toad oil is accurate. Sasuke absorbing Nature energy directly would be a force to reckon with.
On the topic of Sasuke's ability to control DSM (natural energy):
- Many might think that Sasuke will also go mad from absorbing natural energy, but you have to realize that Sasuke spent nearly 3 years with the curse seal, his body is used to releasing its chakra. We also know that Uchiha's sorrow has a similar effect to Juugo's Sennin Transformation madness with the chakra released from their brains (increases hatred):
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It can already be said that Sasuke has quite a bit of experience in combating it.
- All this can be related to BlinkST's thread about Susanoo still being incomplete:
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Sasuke has likely already seen the workings of Muki Tensei:
On the topic of Sasuke's ability to control DSM (natural energy):
- Many might think that Sasuke will also go mad from absorbing natural energy, but you have to realize that Sasuke spent nearly 3 years with the curse seal, his body is used to releasing its chakra. We also know that Uchiha's sorrow has a similar effect to Juugo's Sennin Transformation madness with the chakra released from their brains (increases hatred):
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It can already be said that Sasuke has quite a bit of experience in combating it.
- All this can be related to BlinkST's thread about Susanoo still being incomplete:
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Sasuke has likely already seen the workings of Muki Tensei:
The point I would make is that I don't think Sasuke's Senjutsu powers will come in the form of "DSM". I think that it will manifest itself as a "purified", significantly enhanced form of the curse seal.
You also have to consider that Orochimaru's chakra was mixed into the curse seal. That likely had an effect on the appearance of the users that released it.
The only way to accept the basis of Sasuke achieving Dragon Sage Mode would be the rules of Sage Mode being overwritten by the pact.
Meaning that Toad Sage Mode needs a balance of Physical + Spiritual + Shizen Energy, while Forest Sage Mode (Hashirama's SM) is a balance of Yang + Shizen Energy, and Dragon Sage Mode is a balance of Yin + Shizen Energy.
Only under that condition, all this thread would just make a lot of sense and I wouldn't be arguing anything.
---
All the breach is formed from the stated rules of Sage Mode... if Toad Sage Mode rules are equal to other sage modes, then all this thread falls in too many contradictions based on these rules.
I'm expecting for this information to be cleared.
--- AlphaE20, about your statements of Sasuke having a strong body and huge chakra reserves... this was already disproved in middle of the war, and that thread was already opened earlier. But, from other perspective...
Let's be plot-wise: If Sasuke and Naruto are equal already and they both have the same chakra reserves and stamina, strip the EMS from Sasuke, put normal eyes in him and we can say they're even. If not, then there is no way Sasuke can have as much chakra/stamina as Naruto. That's not being equal in a million of years.
All Shinobi have both physical and spiritual energies, the difference being in quantity. Chakra is composed of both physical and spiritual energies. The idea that Sasuke doesn't have physical energies is utterly nonsensical. You state in your previous post that Naruto has both physical and spiritual energies; what logic are you using to come to the conclusion that Naruto has spiritual energies which rival his physical energies? Just as Naruto has more physical energies and was able to achieve sage mode, Sasuke will be able to do the same whilst having more spiritual energies.
- Sasuke does have large chakra reserves, stating otherwise is pure silliness. How else would he be able to construct a "Perfect" Susanoo if he didn't?
All Shinobi have both physical and spiritual energies, the difference being in quantity. Chakra is composed of both physical and spiritual energies. The idea that Sasuke doesn't have physical energies is utterly nonsensical. You state in your previous post that Naruto has both physical and spiritual energies; what logic are you using to come to the conclusion that Naruto has spiritual energies which rival his physical energies? Just as Naruto has more physical energies and was able to achieve sage mode, Sasuke will be able to do the same whilst having more spiritual energies.
- Sasuke does have large chakra reserves, stating otherwise is pure silliness. How else would he be able to construct a "Perfect" Susanoo if he didn't?
I'm aware every shinobi has both physical and spiritual energy. But as I said earlier, there was another thread where it was proved that Sasuke didn't have as much stamina as Naruto, and there is proof of the source of Stamina being the same source of Chakra, which is Yin and Yang Energy. But that's another thread, you can do the research if you want.
So, about your first question: Kakashi stated in part one that Naruto holds tremendous chakra reserves, this was during the Tree Climbing Training. This doesn't mean that Naruto has equal quantity of physical and spiritual energy, but this means he has tremendous quantities of both energies. Also during this training Kakashi stated the source of chakra and how to control it (and previous to the training Sakura spoke about this).
About Sasuke's chakra reserves: People tends to forget the main characteristic of the Uchiha bloodline, which is "Powerful chakra". Powerful = Quality, it doesn't have anything to do with Quantity. This only means he can sacrifice way less chakra to achieve the same effect than other shinobi in battle, or sacrifice the same quantity of chakra as other shinobi and execute a way more powerful jutsu, for instance, he can use little chakra to use a Final Susano'o, and if he has better control, he can use little chakra to use a Perfect Susano'o.
Why don't you checkout chapter 510 and 462? There is very well explained the main characteristics of the Elder Son of the Sage of Six paths and his descendants.
I'm aware every shinobi has both physical and spiritual energy. But as I said earlier, there was another thread where it was proved that Sasuke didn't have as much stamina as Naruto, and there is proof of the source of Stamina being the same source of Chakra, which is Yin and Yang Energy. But that's another thread, you can do the research if you want.
So, about your first question: Kakashi stated in part one that Naruto holds tremendous chakra reserves, this was during the Tree Climbing Training. This doesn't mean that Naruto has equal quantity of physical and spiritual energy, but this means he has tremendous quantities of both energies. Also during this training Kakashi stated the source of chakra and how to control it (and previous to the training Sakura spoke about this).
I couldn't be bothered to find the scan now, but small amounts of the Kyuubi's chakra were slowly assimilated into Naruto's own chakra. A process that was hastened by Jiraya further loosening the seal. Also, just because Naruto has more stamina than Sasuke doesn't somehow mean that Sasuke has low stamina; the very idea is silly
About Sasuke's chakra reserves: People tends to forget the main characteristic of the Uchiha bloodline, which is "Powerful chakra". Powerful = Quality, it doesn't have anything to do with Quantity. This only means he can sacrifice way less chakra to achieve the same effect than other shinobi in battle, or sacrifice the same quantity of chakra as other shinobi and execute a way more powerful jutsu, for instance, he can use little chakra to use a Final Susano'o, and if he has better control, he can use little chakra to use a Perfect Susano'o.
This entire post is complete baseless nonsense that is completely unsupported by the manga. You will not be able to find one scan in the manga which states that indicates that this is the case; the idea that powerful chakras allow techniques to be pulled off with lesser chakra requirements is completely a fan-made concept. The reality is that chakra is composed of both physical and spiritual energies. Having copious amounts of the latter will result in large chakra reserves. The reality is that Madara was able to fight for 24 hours and Sasuke has been able to abuse his Mangekyou time-and-time again. We've already been outright told that Sasuke matched the chakra output of Naruto's COFRS and FRS. We've already been outright told that Sasuke's body is compatible with Senjutsu.
I couldn't be bothered to find the scan now, but small amounts of the Kyuubi's chakra were slowly assimilated into Naruto's own chakra. A process that was hastened by Jiraya further loosening the seal. Also, just because Naruto has more stamina than Sasuke doesn't somehow mean that Sasuke has low stamina; the very idea is silly
About Kyuubi's chakra... I really can't say yes or not. There is no proof stating this, but it makes sense at certain extent.
About the bolded part... When did I state that Sasuke had a low stamina? Come on, even I know he has some progress on that aspect, but he is limited genetically. He is common compared to others in terms of stamina.
Oh well... as I said earlier, I won't take the trouble of proving this, since the thread is out there for you to find it.
This entire post is complete baseless nonsense that is completely unsupported by the manga. You will not be able to find one scan in the manga which states that indicates that this is the case; the idea that powerful chakras allow techniques to be pulled off with lesser chakra requirements is completely a fan-made concept. The reality is that chakra is composed of both physical and spiritual energies. Having copious amounts of the latter will result in large chakra reserves. The reality is that Madara was able to fight for 24 hours and Sasuke has been able to abuse his Mangekyou time-and-time again.
Okay, if you won't take the trouble to find this (even I said which chapter was this one), I'll put it for you...
Spiritual + Physical energy = Chakra = Stamina
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The one who inherited the Body, Lifeforce and the Physical Energy was the Younger Son, while the one who inherited the Eyes, the Powerful chakra and the Spiritual Energy was the Elder Son.
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And the Uchiha are the descendants of the elder son.
Now... based on what manga proves, what's "Powerful chakra" under your definition? As far as I know, something powerful is something that can cause greater effect than something that is not as powerful given a fixed amount of this something. This is not fanfiction, this is common sense.
Also, it is common sense that Naruto got high chakra reserves and stamina because he got plenty of both physical and spiritual energy.
Finally... for me it is silly and baseless to say that Sasuke has tremendous chakra and stamina when all proofs plays against that... unless you want to say now that Sasuke is descendant of the Younger Son of the Sage, having the Sage's body...
But I know you're intelligent enough, given your level of insight and way to treat my argument as silly and baseless... you should already know the answer to my reasoning.
Please, go ahead... break all the BASED statements I got just for you.
I'm aware every shinobi has both physical and spiritual energy. But as I said earlier, there was another thread where it was proved that Sasuke didn't have as much stamina as Naruto, and there is proof of the source of Stamina being the same source of Chakra, which is Yin and Yang Energy. But that's another thread, you can do the research if you want.
So, about your first question: Kakashi stated in part one that Naruto holds tremendous chakra reserves, this was during the Tree Climbing Training. This doesn't mean that Naruto has equal quantity of physical and spiritual energy, but this means he has tremendous quantities of both energies. Also during this training Kakashi stated the source of chakra and how to control it (and previous to the training Sakura spoke about this).
About Sasuke's chakra reserves: People tends to forget the main characteristic of the Uchiha bloodline, which is "Powerful chakra". Powerful = Quality, it doesn't have anything to do with Quantity. This only means he can sacrifice way less chakra to achieve the same effect than other shinobi in battle, or sacrifice the same quantity of chakra as other shinobi and execute a way more powerful jutsu, for instance, he can use little chakra to use a Final Susano'o, and if he has better control, he can use little chakra to use a Perfect Susano'o.
Why don't you checkout chapter 510 and 462? There is very well explained the main characteristics of the Elder Son of the Sage of Six paths and his descendants.
I couldn't be bothered to find the scan now, but small amounts of the Kyuubi's chakra were slowly assimilated into Naruto's own chakra. A process that was hastened by Jiraya further loosening the seal. Also, just because Naruto has more stamina than Sasuke doesn't somehow mean that Sasuke has low stamina; the very idea is silly
This entire post is complete baseless nonsense that is completely unsupported by the manga. You will not be able to find one scan in the manga which states that indicates that this is the case; the idea that powerful chakras allow techniques to be pulled off with lesser chakra requirements is completely a fan-made concept. The reality is that chakra is composed of both physical and spiritual energies. Having copious amounts of the latter will result in large chakra reserves. The reality is that Madara was able to fight for 24 hours and Sasuke has been able to abuse his Mangekyou time-and-time again. We've already been outright told that Sasuke matched the chakra output of Naruto's COFRS and FRS. We've already been outright told that Sasuke's body is compatible with Senjutsu.
I have absolutely no idea who's side to take on this matter. In reality Kishi has placed too many flags on Sasuke for him not to get DSM.
Taught by Orochimaru- knows DSM
Given CM degraded version of DSM
Place Juugo in Sasuke's group ( a person who has cells that enable DSM)
Giving said cells to Sasuke
Even explaining how Sasuke's chakra has already adapted to senjutsu.
Even having a future villain who SM becomes absolutely necessary.
How blind do you have to be in order to not see that coming.
Putting aside the size of Sasuke's chakra who is to say that Juugo's cells can't do the same as Hashi's and strengthen the users body to a point to where SM is possible. This could solve the question as to why Kabuto was able to withstand the technique.
This could solve the question as to why Kabuto was able to withstand the technique.