Lets get this straight Minato > Tobirama. Convince me otherise

[Bogard]

@DHOH he can summon sage toads giving him an infinite sage chakra supply without wasting time in gathering that himself, essentially giving him a greater sage modę supply than anyone trying it on his own

 

[Gold Lightning]

Sensing: Tobirama was able to determine that Karin was Uzumaki by sensing her chakra. Orochimaru was made up of Hashirama's cells, so Hashi sensing it before Tobi is nothing to be ashamed of. Minato didn't seem to notice at all.

Chakra: Tobirama was able to teleport BM Naruto and BM Minato, both were using Kurama's full shroud and were holding TBBs. Minato has no chakra feat that comes close to that. Before you mention the fact Tobi was an Edo, Edo Tensei doesn't grant you unlimited chakra, it just replenishes it instantly as proven when Muu wasn't able to use Jinton after he split.

Intelligence/Battle Smarts: I agree, tho the gap is quite small so I doubt any of the two will be outsmarting the other.

Ninjutsu/Speed: Minato using FTG better is arguable, Tobirama has his own variations and he can teleport to any of his Suiton techs, since Minato himself stated anything containing the chakra of the user can be teleported to. Minato has the wider/more versatile arsenal tho', I agree on that. And whilst Minato has the better Shunshin, Tobirama has the better reflexes.

Despite all of that, I agree with you on Minato>Tobirama.

Just so you know, the Juubi tailed beast bomb is way bigger than 2 Kurama's combined yet minato teleported to no sweat. Reason he was exhausted when after teleporting Kurama when he was alive is because of all the other crap he had to do before that.

Don't forget he used FTG about 20 times, he used a space/time barrier to warp a massive tailed beast bomb, has to suppress the ninetails all throughout labour, used the body flicker jutsu twice, used 1 rasengan, used the summoning jutsu twice (once for Gamabunta and then Gamatora), used the repeat death seal, summoned an alter, performed the 4 trigrams seal and 8 trigrams seal. And of course he teleported Kurama along with another tailed beast bomb. To me I don't think here is anyone that has shown better chakra feats. Besides, perfect sage = enormous chakra.

Sensing, I agree with the op, Minatos is more or less equal or even potentially better. People forget his sage mode sensing ability as well as senjutsu enhanced sensing, allowing him to literally become one with nature and feel everything around him for miles.

 

[Oblivionx]

it's pretty evident that minato > tobirama...! also you forgot to mention SM...! tobirama has no chance whatsoever...

 

[RasenUchihaChaos]

I'm glad the tobirama fans and minato fans have not united and r still warring good good

 

[xxxLegacy]

Sensing: Tobirama was able to determine that Karin was Uzumaki by sensing her chakra. Orochimaru was made up of Hashirama's cells, so Hashi sensing it before Tobi is nothing to be ashamed of. Minato didn't seem to notice at all.

Chakra: Tobirama was able to teleport BM Naruto and BM Minato, both were using Kurama's full shroud and were holding TBBs. Minato has no chakra feat that comes close to that. Before you mention the fact Tobi was an Edo, Edo Tensei doesn't grant you unlimited chakra, it just replenishes it instantly as proven when Muu wasn't able to use Jinton after he split.

Intelligence/Battle Smarts: I agree, tho the gap is quite small so I doubt any of the two will be outsmarting the other.

Ninjutsu/Speed: Minato using FTG better is arguable, Tobirama has his own variations and he can teleport to any of his Suiton techs, since Minato himself stated anything containing the chakra of the user can be teleported to. Minato has the wider/more versatile arsenal tho', I agree on that. And whilst Minato has the better Shunshin, Tobirama has the better reflexes.

Despite all of that, I agree with you on Minato>Tobirama.

Sensing : Minato is cleary better, he can use the same Jutsu that Tobi used, with only one finger (there is no way how you can use it better)

Chakra: It is said that Senjus have much chakra, YES RIGHT. When you compare a ''normal'' Ninja with a Senju Ninja.
Than we can say, that the Senju would have more chakra.
But you have to compare here, a Senju that cann't use perfect Sennin-Moode and Minato can, this is a Mangafact.

Minato had the requirement to master the Sennin-Moode. Tobirama can not to it. 1. He has not that much chakra, i am sure he would have the talent to learn it.

Minato who was alive, and had to deal with the seal of Kushina for hours, was able to port a TBB from full Kurama.
To summon Gamabunta + port the full Kurama + TBB. etc. etc. etc.

Tobirama ported two Kurama Avatars = 100 % Kurama ...this did Minato also and alive!
They have used one big Rasengan and not 2 TBB's.

Ninjutsu: Eyy man, you can not give the FEATS from Minato to Tobirama cuz they have the same Base-Jutsu (FTG)...
He is better at FTG and have Ugraded it....you have no proof that Tobirama could also port to things with his chakra -.-''

 

[The Grand Pubba]

Minato mastered Perfect Sage Mode that confirms his chakra reserves are above Tobirama's U_U

He did master perfect sage mode, but he himself stated that he has not used in combat before. Plus it lasts for a very short time that i would not matter that much. In terms of chakra reserves they are pretty much on the same level.

The way I see it

Note: edo tensei are much weaker than their original alive form. This is proven when an enhanced edo tensei ( madara) is still weaker than his living prime.

The same applies to tobirama.

Alive tobirama vs alive minato- tobirama is stronger.

Let's see how the fight would go...

Considering its a fight of two ftg users, I could easily imagine it being a battle of endurance.

I don't see minato hitting tobirama, not do I see tobirama hitting minato. However, tobirama should have superior chakra pool, since in a weakend edo form, he had enough chakra in order to crack the room.

Basically, minato gets tired faster, giving tobirama the win.

I agree that edo's are weaker but Tobirama siad that they were virtually brought back at full strength, just shy of 100%.

That means that what we have seen (what we can go from) is a pretty good indicator of what he could do (maybe a little better.)

You are wrong about the mot hitting each other part. FTG: instant equal Instant, its what you do after the teleportation. Tobirama said Minaot is faster than himself. If Madara could hit tobirama while he was use FTG, Minato can difeinatly hit Tobirama. Minato doged Raikages full speed attack. He can do that same for Tobirama. Tobirama comes to attack, minato doeges, leaves kunia in his place, attackes him like he did tobi, and since he is faster it should work.

 

[BraveStorm]

- Tobirama got Minato, Hiruzen, EMS Sasuke, Oroichimaru, and the rest of taka shit their pants when he lifted one finger.

- Tobirama killed a MS user who was as strong as Madara. Minato failed killing a 14 year old Obito.

- they are not even full powered in edo. Edo Tobirama could destroy a wall by placing his hand on it.

 

[Stxluciferr]

Tobirama with edo tensei has the edge. If Tobirama FTG marks them he has mobile marks

While due to Minato's marked kunia being unable to move themselves suiton techs can sweep them to where Tobirama wants them.

The differences in there arsenals make it easier for Tobirama to set up on a FTG user than vice versa

 

[Gold Lightning]

Tobirama with edo tensei has the edge. If Tobirama FTG marks them he has mobile marks

While due to Minato's marked kunia being unable to move themselves suiton techs can sweep them to where Tobirama wants them.

The differences in there arsenals make it easier for Tobirama to set up on a FTG user than vice versa

You realise minato has an armada of toads at his disposal right?

 

[Stxluciferr]

You realise minato has an armada of toads at his disposal right?

He has one toad, and toads aren't going to be able to hit a FTG user plus they're big targets for suiton and edo explosions.

 

[Gold Lightning]

He has one toad, and toads aren't going to be able to hit a FTG user plus they're big targets for suiton and edo explosions.

Lol, minato has access to every single toad of mount myoboku,databook says that once a contract is signed with the toads, the user can summon/has access to all toads.

So if minato throws a kunai into the air above Tobirama and uses food cart destroyer, how does Tobirama escape without markings outside of the area? And think carefully before you respond at how large Gamabuntas body mass occupies.

 

[Stxluciferr]

Lol, minato has access to every single toad of mount myoboku,databook says that once a contract is signed with the toads, the user can summon/has access to all toads.

So if minato throws a kunai into the air above Tobirama and uses food cart destroyer, how does Tobirama escape without markings outside of the area? And think carefully before you respond at how large Gamabuntas body mass occupies.

Scans or it didn't happen. Though if he can, he can definitely smother Tobirama with summons and agree to Minato taking it.

But if we're holding it to just Gamabunta like feats suggest, the kunia can be knocked away long before it even gets high enough for Minato to food cart destroy. And even if he does, food cart destroyer leaves Gamabunta's belly open to suiton, which shouldn't have a problem sliceing through toad skin

 

[Gold Lightning]

Scans or it didn't happen. Though if he can, he can definitely smother Tobirama with summons and agree to Minato taking it.

But if we're holding it to just Gamabunta like feats suggest, the kunia can be knocked away long before it even gets high enough for Minato to food cart destroy. And even if he does, food cart destroyer leaves Gamabunta's belly open to suiton, which shouldn't have a problem sliceing through toad skin

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Here's your scan, highlighted in red.

And can Tobirama deflect dozens of heavy kunai all at once of minato were to throw all of these into the air:

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Even if he were to slice through Bunta, the toad will still land on him with all it's weight. Doesn't change anything, minato can use food cart destroyer in an instant (doesn't even require hand signs), is Tobirama quick enough to use severing wave before the toad crushes him? Like I said before, whether he slices Bunta or not doesn't change when bunta's body will land.

 

[Stxluciferr]

Spoiler

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Here's your scan, highlighted in red.

And can Tobirama deflect dozens of heavy kunai all at once of minato were to throw all of these into the air:

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Even if he were to slice through Bunta, the toad will still land on him with all it's weight. Doesn't change anything, minato can use food cart destroyer in an instant (doesn't even require hand signs), is Tobirama quick enough to use severing wave before the toad crushes him? Like I said before, whether he slices Bunta or not doesn't change when bunta's body will land.

Right below the red highlighted box it says it depends on the ability of the user which toads can be summoned. Alive Minato hasn't demonstrated the ability to summon a myriad of toads.

Tobirama doesn't have to stop each individual kunia. One or two explosions should be enough to stop them from getting high enough in the air.

One wave might be enough to dice through a couple of times. And even if Gamabunta is only diced once it will still open enough space for Tobirama to jump through similar to the way we've seen shinobi jump through falling rock. Throw in clones also diceing and there's definitely enough space.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Right below the red highlighted box it says it depends on the ability of the user which toads can be summoned. Alive Minato hasn't demonstrated the ability to summon a myriad of toads.

Tobirama doesn't have to stop each individual kunia. One or two explosions should be enough to stop them from getting high enough in the air.

One wave might be enough to dice through a couple of times. And even if Gamabunta is only diced once it will still open enough space for Tobirama to jump through similar to the way we've seen shinobi jump through falling rock. Throw in clones also diceing and there's definitely enough space.

Jiraya once said that even he couldn't handle Bunta, yet minato was the only person Bunta respected. Minato trusted Narutos key to Gerotora, a rare species of toad (a scroll toad). Minato trained with the toads, learned senjutsu with them, Fukasaku even knew him yet you are trying to doubt his ability to summon toads lol.

Explosions? Explosions with what? Please don't say Edo Tensei. I bet you don't even know what edos he can summon do you or if he even has prepared sacrifices and DNA ready for him to summon. Plus the explosions were only shown to be triggered after the edos are in regeneration mode, meaning they'd need to be hurt first. You're trying to say minato cannot drop a toad on someone faster than summoning zombies, placing the sealing tags into their head, hurting them, then performing the explosion jutsu? Food cart destroyer only takes a second.

 

[Stxluciferr]

Jiraya once said that even he couldn't handle Bunta, yet minato was the only person Bunta respected. Minato trusted Narutos key to Gerotora, a rare species of toad (a scroll toad). Minato trained with the toads, learned senjutsu with them, Fukasaku even knew him yet you are trying to doubt his ability to summon toads lol.

Explosions? Explosions with what? Please don't say Edo Tensei. I bet you don't even know what edos he can summon do you or if he even has prepared sacrifices and DNA ready for him to summon. Plus the explosions were only shown to be triggered after the edos are in regeneration mode, meaning they'd need to be hurt first. You're trying to say minato cannot drop a toad on someone faster than summoning zombies, placing the sealing tags into their head, hurting them, then performing the explosion jutsu? Food cart destroyer only takes a second.

You misunderstand, I don't doubt his ability to summon toads. I doubt his ability to summon a myriad of the great toads in one battle.


I was actually thinking something much simpler like his own kunia with exploding tags. And I don't know what that rant was for as my first comment was if he has them. Btw there doesn't need to be multiple body sacrifices for edo's once they have one body, as shown by the fact the that he didn't need sacrifices to bring them back when he was an edo

 

[Stxluciferr]

If fact didn't when naruto brought an armada he needed ma and pa to do it for him?

 

[Touken]

You're like a year late, and there's literally no point discussing this. No one's gonna convince each other.

 

[Legendary Saiyan]

Let's not speculate everything. Minato lacks the chakra since he isn't a Senju. However, his strategy is better and how he prepares his battlefield and determines everything like against the fourth Raikage

 

[DHOH]

I have been seeing these threads where people still for some reason are stating that Tobirama > Minato. Putting Tobirama above Minato in Top 10’s. Its not as common now as it was when Tobirama was first showing his stuff, but even after we have seen what Tobirama can do, people still be saying that Tobirama is the stronger Hokage. Truly, I don't get it. I mean Minato is practically a “better” vesion of Tobirama...

P.S. I going of on Alive Minato (no Kurama)

Sensing:

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Tobirama-

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He can use his two fingers he can sense opponents in the surrounding area. Right after he was resurrected he could sense that madara miles away on the battlefield. Similarly Minato could sense Naruto away on the same battlefield. Then again he takes it up a notch and can sense that Naruto has mixed his chakra with the Nine-tails. Now you might say is that Tobirama wasn't focusing on Naruto and only sensing Madara, but there is one more thing. Tobirama could sense that Orochimaru was the same guy that summoned him once before, but he had no idea that he was made up from Hashirama's cells this time. Hashirama could sense that before Tobirama could. Small mistake but shows that Tobirama couldn't sense the chakra type of someone standing few meters away. He figured it out after

Minato-

Spoiler

He can use one finger to sense the people in the surrounding area. He takes it even a step further and is able to discern clones that they are clones. Tobirama hasn't shown that ability. He might be able to, but since going BY FEATS, he has not shown that.Similarly Minato could sense Naruto away on the same battlefield. Then again he takes it up a notch and can sense that Naruto has mixed his chakra with the Nine-tails. Now you might say is that Tobirama wasn't focusing on Naruto and only sensing Madara, but there is one more thing. Tobirama could sense that Orochimaru was the same guy that summoned him once before, but he had no idea that he was made up from Hashirama's cells. Hashirama could sense that before Tobirama could. Small mistake but shows that Tobirama couldn't sense the chakra type of someone standing few meters away.

Verdict:

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Sensing: Minato is BETTER or the same as Tobirama. Imma go with better of on what he has shown. By no means is he worse. That is a fact.

Chakra:

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Tobirama:

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He is a Senju. He has shown to crack the wall after exerting his chakra, similar to the Third Hokage and Hashirama. He could create water out of thin air. He stated himself that he could teleport a Tailed beast bomb

Minato:

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He has his fair share of chakra feat. He was able to teleport an uncompressed Tailed beast bomb from the Nine -Tails then teleported far away from the village, beat Tobi, Teleported back, Summoned Gamabunta, teleported a WHOLE Nine-tails, and still had enough chakra to use RDS all without a break. Then after he was revived, he was able to teleport an Uncompressed TTB from the Ten-Tails, the strongest TTB soon in the series so far.

Verdict:

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Now the biggest thing that the Tobirama supports are going to say is that He is Senju. Senju > all others in terms of chakra. Yes I agree that Senju are known to have very good chakra, but they are not just on a whole different level where everyone else can't even reach that. Look at Jiraya, A (chakra comparable to tailed beast), 3rd raikage (fight for 3 days straight).

Now using feats, Tobirama has not shown ANYTHING where he distances himself from Minato. Some people say that he was able to crack a wall with his palm and Minato didn't. That is only because Minato didn't try to escape (something that Tobirama failed at). The only one among the Hokage that clearly stood out was Hashirama as he BROKE thru the binding that Orochimaru had. At the end of the day Tobirama was at under control just like Minato

Minato on the same level as Tobirama. Tobirama might more but it would not have an effect on the battle. They both got plenty for the fight.

Intelligence/Battle Smarts:

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Tobirama:

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He is THE Inventor. Shadow clones, Edo tensei, FTG some spirit tech. we have yet to see and the continuous explosions, you name it, he has done it. On top of that, his pure knowledge of the amount of various jutsus (what and how they work) is legendary (I would put him above all but Hiruzen and Orochimaru). Some of his tactical in- battle intelligence feats include noticing that only senjutsu works on Obito.

Minato:

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Minato is no slouch when it comes to the smarts. He did create the Rasengan, one of the most difficult techniques in the Narutoverse. He was able to master the FTG at a greater level than the creator (Tobirama stated this). He was taught by Kushina Uzimaki’s sealing techs (techs that were so strong that the clan was annihilated because of it). Example he was able to remove Nine-Tails from Tobi’s control. He can also do one handed-hand signs.

Tactically, he is unarguably one of the smartest in the series. After seeing a technique once, he could correctly deduce the basic mechanics behind it, such as the strengths and weaknesses of Kakashi's Chidori. He was also able to deduce Tobi’s abilities after 1 clash and was able to find out his weakness. Most recently he was able to figure out the workings of the Truth-seeking balls after seeing them in action

Verdict:

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As an Inventor, Tobirama is definitely the better man. He is responsible for some of the most prominent justus in the Naruto world. His knowledge of the various jutsus is most likely greater that Minato’s based on the fact that he has had more battle experience. That being said, Minato’s in- battle smarts are better (from what has been shown so far). Every battle he has been in, he is able to discern a justus weakness in moments. Also all the jutsus that Tobirama created are known by many people now, they are not the revolutionary techs they were in Tobiramas time. Tobirama MIGHT be just as tactical but he not shown nearly enough feats in this field to justify that he is better. Since we are going what is shown (feats),Minato’s battle tactics give him the edge when it comes to Intelligence.

Ninjutsu/Speed:

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Tobirama:

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He is an Inventor. Shadow clones, Edo tensei, FTG some spirit tech. we have yet to see and the continuous explosions. And he is one of the best (if not the best) water style user in the series. Based on his mastery and understanding (and the fact he is a Hokage, it is safe to assume that he has a master of all forms of shinobi combat.

In terms of speed, he was stated to be the fasted shinobi of his time. Minato himself was impressed by his speed when he saw Tobirama in action.

Minato:

Spoiler

He invented the Rasengan and his base version is the best out of all the ones that can use (he can do it with one hand and its roughly the size of a big ball rasengan). He is the best practitioner of the FTG (Tobirama said so himself). He was so good at it that he got the nickname the “Yellow Flash” for his exploits with it on the battlefields. He also knows the Uzumaki sealing techs (the clan that was FEARED for their proficiency in these types of techs).

Well when it comes to speed, Minato is best. He is considered the fastest shinobi to have existed. One of the best compliments of speed in the series is being compared to Minato. 4th raikage himself stated that Minato was the fastest Shinobi to have ever lived. Tobirama himself states that minato’s speed exceeds his own. This is also shown when Minato is the first Hokage to arrive on the battlefield.
On top of that he has the summoning jutsu. Tobirama has not shown that.

Verdict:

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When it comes to Ninjutsu, this is where Minato clearly has the edge. Sure Tobirama created a lot of techs, but that does not matter that much. Other than the Edo Tensei, Minato can what ever Tobirama can just as good or better. Tobirama’s arguably best jutsu is the FTG (that is the one that he used the most during the war) is second to Minato’s. Now I know that Tobirama has Water style on his side but it really does not help him in this situation. He has not shown anything with the water that can counter Minato’s FTG. He only has FTG itself. On top of that Minato has the Rasengan that he can use with his FTG. Speed is obvious: Tobirama is fast shinobi, Minato is the FASTEST shinobi.

Conclusion:

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If we tally the categories we get

• Sensing: Minato = or > than Tobirama
• Chakra: Minato same level as Tobirama.
• Intelligence: Tobirama has better overall knowledge, MInato is better tactically on the battlefield. Overall Minato > Tobirama (only slightly)
• Ninjutsu: Minato can do What Tobirama does but better. The only thing that Tobirama has over Minato is water. Minato’s got sealing jutsus and Summoning. Minato wins
• Speed:... Minato

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Minato is the clear winner. He can get his mark on Tobirama before he does due to the speed. Also Instant is Instant, it is what you do after the FTG that is important and Minato has shown to be much better than Tobirama. Minato also has a technique that can teleport with the FTG (rasengan) meaning that he can do a lot more damage in a shorter time as well.

EDIT:
Edo Problem:

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Now I know that people going ot say that Tobirama with ET is better but not really

• First EDO tensie is a techniques that start once you do the ritual, not when you summon it. That is like saying that MInato has a seal on Tobirama before the fight starts but activates it once it starts
• It depeds on other people if they are dead. What if all the hokage are alive
• also we have no idea which DNA Tobirama has. We dont know how or what or how good he is at summoning it. remember Kabuto said that Orhimaru was better ET then TObirama and he is even better so he is stating the part 1 Orchi.
• Minaot has the contract seal. He can do the same thing as he did with Tobi

Now you have seen what I have to say. If you agree great and thanks, but if you don't let me know why. Give legit reasons not just cause you like that guy better Also i know its a long read and I don't expect you guys to read some of it to see if I have already talked about the thing you are about to read. Thanks

1. Sensing: this is easily a point in Tobirama's favor. The guy is so renowned in this area that he is able to a person chakra on such a level that he is able to tell what clan the person is from. He was also able to sense that Orochimaru's new body was made up of most Hashirama's DNA... No other shinobi in the manga has shown that..

2. Chakra: the guy is a SENJU, no needs to go into detail about this..

3. Intelligence/battle smarts: he created the chunnin exams, Anubis and the academy. He created Hiraishin, clones, and edo Tensei. He was the only shinobi on the battlefield to recognize the yin yang release Obito was using. He came up with several different strategies to attack Obito before naruto figured out Senjutsu was effective. He was only the only person to realize how the Uchiha sharingan is activated and the cause and effect behind it.

4. Ninjutsu/speed: since you combine these two, minato can only tie.. Not much need to be said but Tobirama is know to be the greatest suction user in history. He has suit on just for offense and defense.. Minato wins the speed, we all know this. But he doesn't even have a jutsu outside of resengan that he didn't steal from Minato.. He doesn't have a element..

5. Kenjutsu: Tobirama is a master swordsman...

6. Greatest feat: Minato defeated his 13 year old student and died...Tobirama defeated Izuna's Uchiha, a MS weilding Uchiha who was said to be on par with Madara before he gain EMS..

Conclusion: Kobe can never be better than MJ by being a imitation.. Same scenario here..