[VS] Kisame vs. War Arc Gaara

[Icelerate]

I think we've already agreed that sand manipulation speed =/= sand suspension speed. There isn't enough discernable evidence, unless you show me Gaara covering more distance at a shorter time than Onoki, that Gaara is faster. At the very least, I can consider them equals. The fact that Gaara used his sand to transport Onoki doesn't indicate that sand suspension is > his flight speed because Gaara doesn't use much chakra at all to suspend and fly with his sand, and he has much higher reserves than Onoki, so the latter probably rested on it to conserve his stamina.

Okay than Gaara's flight = Deidara's = Onoki's. Gaara's sand attacks are slightly faster though and his gourd sand attacks are even faster.

Fair enough about the bolded, but manipulating non gourd sand takes more chakra for Gaara, so he'll still end up expending a fair amount of chakra in trying to capture and crush Kisame regardless.

Yet Gaara's been manipulating a large amount of non gourd sand throughout the War Arc. I agree with the second statement and that is exactly why Gaara wins with high difficulty.

Deep enough as to not make any obvious indications of their movements on the surface until they're actually coming up to attack. Kisame only needs to stick around below the surface, not any deeper, because he would be at a disadvantage. Samehada can sense the creation of sand, so Kisame will know when to execute his jutsu.

But there is no obvious indications of their movements even a few inches underground unless you can see/sense underground so this doesn't tell me how deep underground they can go. I highly doubt it would be very deep or else the pressure of the rock above them will crush them or make it too heavy for them to properly breathe. Regardless, Kisame can keep doing this and converting the earth into fluid but Gaara will realize that Kisame's hindering Gaara's attempts to create a sandbox in the area and just create sand elsewhere or use sensory sand to detect Kisame's location and then box him while he's underground.

Bolded: That scan only showed that Gaara is capable of manipulating his sand underwater, not that it functions like it normally does on land. Like we've agreed, fluid resistance will make the sand slower. Logically, the sand should also be weaker since its going to be all mushy, making it harder for Gaara to fully reinforce his sand with the same strength as he does on land when the sand is dry [

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], and making it easier for Kisame to break out of it should he find himself trapped.

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, we see that Madara's movements were dulled by Ay's raiton mixed in with the suiton dragon, allowing Gaara to restrain him with sand, implying that couldn't have done so if without Madara being handicapped.

You do realize that Madara could have absorbed Mei's waterdragon, the raiton and jinton because all three are just chakra? It was Gaara's sand and that alone that Madara couldn't absorb nor could he physically overpower or else he'd have done so while absorbing the other attacks so he wouldn't be paralysed or handicapped in anyway. Part one Gaara's sand coffin did quite a bit of damage to base Kimimaro so I think a Shippuden Gaara can turn Kisame to paste even underwater (

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)(

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)(

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).

My point was that Kisame would only have to rush its prep if he finds himself in a bind. Like I said, Gaara can't use a large sand attack and a large sand shield at the same time, so GSB even at half its regular size should have no problem absorbing Gaara's chakra if he's protected by his

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. I hardly think that Gaara's mother shield would completely cease the attack at full power either since said attack should be roughly on par with the shield in size if we apply scaling, and the attack is always going to be moving and pushing forward as long as Kisame maintains it.

If Gaara is protected by sand dome, it means he won't get hit by GSB so he doesn't get his chakra absorbed except for his gourd sand, converting it to regular sand. If the attack crashes into the mother shield, the shield may get destroyed but the GSB will too. It won't just keep on going forward forever, it doesn't have infinite momentum to just plow through everything.

Ok, now that I actually think about it I'll drop my point about the water dome + GSB in conjunction with each other, but Kisame absorbing Bee's chakra to use the Dome isn't relevant since Kisame has more than enough chakra to use and maintain it at the same size by himself. However, Kisame can still spit great amounts of water all across the region, esentially turning the location into a giant lake, which gives Kisame an even greater advantage geographically speaking.

Okay I agree. Just pointing this out because you seem to think Kisame can do much more than he did in the Bee fight even though he had some extra chakra in that fight.

Ok, C3 was a gross exaggeration, but that doesn't really factor too much into my point. If we apply scaling, the surface area of that dome spread out surpasses Gaara's meteor feat because the sand only managed to cover the

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when the rest of it is actually much

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. I'll prove my point further below.

No if you continue reading the page, you can see Gaara

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.

It took a lot out of him because he moved a ton of sand very quickly all at once to shield the village from C3 in time. Just take a look at this

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(bottom right panel), and note the

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relative to the amount of time it took to make that distance while factoring in the amount of sand he was using at once. He did this all right before Deidara detonated C3 [

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]. Also factor in that he didn't even use the entirety of that giant sand dome to block C3 [

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] (top left panel), so he also had to maintain that in the air so that it didn't fall down on the villagers. Now we add in the sand dome Gaara used to cover himself, and we can conclude that the amount of sand Gaara was using, maintaining, and manipulating all at once in that instance was insane. We've never seen Gaara move so much sand at such speeds in any other instance, and War Arc Gaara was manipulating comparatively smaller amounts of sand at a much slower speed, and the latter had the benefit of being closer to the ground where there was more sand

Meh I'll agree that Shukaku Gaara can control more sand at a given period of time but War Arc Gaara's shown to use sand simultaneously as well. His war arc feats are more than enough to do what I said in my previous posts such as smash the sand down through the centre of the WD where Kisame will be. Gaara's sand has better speed feats now so I disagree with it getting slower though.

As for the meteor feat, right after Gaara slows down the first meteor with Onoki's support. The second meteor comes crashing down and despite this being a great disturbance for Gaara to deal with while maintaining that huge wall of sand, he still managed to protect himself and Temari. He also

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and

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and get to Naruto before Madara could finish him off.

Actually, it'll be harder to note if Kisame simply creates a lake and uses it from deep underwater since the dome will logically be a bit more transparent. Also, its not like the shark is slow underwater by any means.

You don't get the point that the water dragon will create a disturbance on the surface of the water before the shark itself gets to the surface of the water so Gaara will notice it and than move out of the way.

 

[maniaoqan]

Gaara can maintain his flight longer than Kisame maintain his Water dome. A jutsu of that scale must consume huge amount of chakra. Against Bee he absorbed a lot of chakra to maintain it but i don't see a way for him to absorb Gaara's chakra.

Gaara could fly out faster than before the water dome could capture him, i would play my money on Gaara here.

 

[Daybreaker]

Kisame wins.

His element would counter Gaara's like how raikiri counters earth.

 

[Daybreaker]

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[Draegod]

-Gaara makes holes in which drains Kisame water dome or Shock wave every single time. SO the enviormental advantage goes to gaara every single time.

-If Kisame doesn't Fuse ASAP the sword is tooken from him and sunk beneath the earth to be crushed no diff!

-Gaara dodges every single last attack vis Air born.

-Kisame cannot stay still, ever!.. Period! Or he loses to being crushed underground or sand coffin no diff.

-Gaara's environmental sand doesn't use chakra and he can control all sand with out chakra.


Alll in all Gaara wins more times then not since he literally has a counter for everything Kisame has ever shown, while Kisame does not have a counter for everything Gaara has shown. Simple logic, not hard to grasp.

 

[Icelerate]

-Gaara makes holes in which drains Kisame water dome or Shock wave every single time. SO the enviormental advantage goes to gaara every single time.

-If Kisame doesn't Fuse ASAP the sword is tooken from him and sunk beneath the earth to be crushed no diff!

-Gaara dodges every single last attack vis Air born.

-Kisame cannot stay still, ever!.. Period! Or he loses to being crushed underground or sand coffin no diff.

-Gaara's environmental sand doesn't use chakra and he can control all sand with out chakra.


Alll in all Gaara wins more times then not since he literally has a counter for everything Kisame has ever shown, while Kisame does not have a counter for everything Gaara has shown. Simple logic, not hard to grasp.

You sure? Doesn't Gaara need chakra to control any sand or else I don't see how he's controlling it. I mean you need to use chakra to use ninjutsu.

 

[Draegod]

You sure? Doesn't Gaara need chakra to control any sand or else I don't see how he's controlling it. I mean you need to use chakra to use ninjutsu.

Its just like the 3rd Kazekage controlling All Metal. Does the metal in your dagger has his Chakra? Does the sand and minerals in the planet itself have his chakra? The answer is no, but ofc gaara was able to create and make more sand from the planet with no diff.

 

[maniaoqan]

Spoiler

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Madara is better at absorbing chakra than Kisame. But chakra absorbing is useless against Sand.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

But there is no obvious indications of their movements even a few inches underground unless you can see/sense underground so this doesn't tell me how deep underground they can go. I highly doubt it would be very deep or else the pressure of the rock above them will crush them or make it too heavy for them to properly breathe. Regardless, Kisame can keep doing this and converting the earth into fluid but Gaara will realize that Kisame's hindering Gaara's attempts to create a sandbox in the area and just create sand elsewhere or use sensory sand to detect Kisame's location and then box him while he's underground.

I agree with this, but Kisame won't need to travel very deep anyway, just close enough to the surface where he won't stick out until he decides to come up. I don't think Kisame will end up getting boxed in due to the Samehada's sensory abilities, and Kisame can actually make 3 mizu bunshins and have them all split up in different directions and spit out as much water as they can to create an even bigger body of water than what we saw against Team Gai.

Logically, 100% Kisame's mizu bunshins are stronger, have more chakra than 30% Kisame's mizu bunshins and are closer in chakra to the latter, which means that they can perform more techniques, or perform a technique that takes a decent amount of chakra. Now lets look at

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description of Suiton: Baksuishōha

The amount of water created is proportional to the amount of chakra used; when used with Kisame's enormous chakra, even a dry wasteland can become a small ocean.

This implies that 100% Kisame's clones can just use up all of their chakra before dispersing to spit out a decent amount of water. 30% Kisame spat out a lake and used several other techniques without absorbing chakra or showing signs of exhaustion, and 100% Kisame's clones are 10%, so the mizu bunshins should each be able to successfully spit out a good amount of water. After we factor in the amount of water that the original Kisame can spit out, the location can actually be turned into a miniature ocean as opposed to a lake, giving Kisame a pivotal geographical advantage, and rendering Draegod's "holes" argument null (don't even see how that would work against the WD either).

You do realize that Madara could have absorbed Mei's waterdragon, the raiton and jinton because all three are just chakra? It was Gaara's sand and that alone that Madara couldn't absorb nor could he physically overpower or else he'd have done so while absorbing the other attacks so he wouldn't be paralysed or handicapped in anyway. Part one Gaara's sand coffin did quite a bit of damage to base Kimimaro so I think a Shippuden Gaara can turn Kisame to paste even underwater (

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)(

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)(

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).

Mei's dialogue implies that they stopped him from absorbing techniques by restricting his movements, and implicatively his ability to mould chakra with the raiton/suiton dragon.

Let's look at how Gakidō absorbs chakra [

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].

This technique requires the user focus their chakra. If the user somehow has their chakra drained or stripped of their abilities to mould chakra, this technique is rendered unusable.

Madara being submerged and paralyzed before he could have activated Gakidō probably inhibited his ability to focus and mould his chakra. Also, it'd be absurd if Madara is capable of absorbing that giant jinton cube all at once.

If Gaara is protected by sand dome, it means he won't get hit by GSB so he doesn't get his chakra absorbed except for his gourd sand, converting it to regular sand. If the attack crashes into the mother shield, the shield may get destroyed but the GSB will too. It won't just keep on going forward forever, it doesn't have infinite momentum to just plow through everything.

GSB has to at least open its mouth and have some part of the target inside of it to absorb said target's chakra. If it partially or even fully clamps down on the dome, it'll absorb Gaara's chakra, even if he's inside of said dome. The sand won't protect him from that. I don't see how the shark will get destroyed if Kisame is maintaining the shark's shape and dictating its direction with his own

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(far left panel below the big one) and chakra. Also, if the shark's open mouth gets close to Gaara his chakra will get absorbed. I didn't say it has infinite momentum, but when we consider the speed with which a regular Suikōdan traveled with and the distance it had to cover from the center of Turtle Island to the sea without Kisame having to amplify its force with his chakra, Daikōdan will come hurdling at Gaara with a great deal of momentum and force.

No if you continue reading the page, you can see Gaara

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.

That was the meteor falling further down and exerting its force against Gaara's sand.

Meh I'll agree that Shukaku Gaara can control more sand at a given period of time but War Arc Gaara's shown to use sand simultaneously as well. His war arc feats are more than enough to do what I said in my previous posts such as smash the sand down through the centre of the WD where Kisame will be. Gaara's sand has better speed feats now so I disagree with it getting slower though.

Kisame doesn't have to use the water dome, he can just turn the entire area into a mini ocean, where he'll have more space and breathing room unless we think Gaara can miraculously cover even half of such a large body of water with his sand. I'm not quite sure if even Shukaku Jin Gaara can do that.

As for the meteor feat, right after Gaara slows down the first meteor with Onoki's support. The second meteor comes crashing down and despite this being a great disturbance for Gaara to deal with while maintaining that huge wall of sand, he still managed to protect himself and Temari. He also

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and

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and get to Naruto before Madara could finish him off.

He could barely react to Mū and Madara's blitz as well [

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]. He was probably exhausted due to using so much chakra at once though.

You don't get the point that the water dragon will create a disturbance on the surface of the water before the shark itself gets to the surface of the water so Gaara will notice it and than move out of the way.

Kisame can just use the excess water from the mini ocean to form the shark, which makes less of a disturbance than having to spit it out. It's quicker for Gaara to use a shield to protect himself as well, and Kisame, who can feel Gaara's chakra when fused with the Samehada, can alter Daikōdan's course if he notes that Gaara is going to move. Also, Kisame can use bunshins to attack from other angles before prepping as a distraction as well.

 

[BLAZE]

Can't see Kisame loosing