Kisame vs Danzo and Edo Hiruzen

[Forbidden Technique]

Having me go in circles with your reasoning and many other things so yea I give up.

---

Ironic. Nothing in those two quotes contradict each other, it's just your incapability in refuting them, along with everything else. You've brought yourself around in circles because you never had a solid basis and support from the manga to begin with. Well, interesting way of saying you've been laughably incorrect the entire time. Salute on that.

That weak ass Spirit bomb gets deflected back at your ass! lmao I'm too busy busting Beerus ass to worry about your weak ass arguments. haha Post something new, spike my interest again with out easy to defend characters that take zero skills. Speaking of which, when are you going to counter the Hyuga vs Uchiha debate fool?

Lmao, guy is at best Mr. Popo level talking about Beerus. I'll look into it soon... That's a debate that's just annoying

Kisame debaters take this thread

More so people just that don't destroy the manga on a daily, lmao.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Ironic. Nothing in those two quotes contradict each other, it's just your incapability in refuting them, along with everything else. You've brought yourself around in circles because you never had a solid basis and support from the manga to begin with. Well, interesting way of saying you've been laughably incorrect the entire time. Salute on that.

Contradiction and Circular reasoning are two different things FT, never said you contradicted yourself. I commented that Kisame needed to trick Bee for his counter to fail, only for you to say Ponta didnt matter and only matters if it was team co operation set up. I comment that Kisame compliment his counter towards his jutsu (despite Ponta being irrelevant to Kisame), only for you to say that it still didnt matter and made up your own excuses so it doesn't imply what you dont want it to apply.

My points were clear. "Every jutsu has a weak point". That was cleared. Only for you to make a comment "Meant countering the oppositions jutsu with your own capabilities." Which has nothing to do with the statement made in the manga.

So all you have been doing to refuting manga by changing its context to fit your own speculation. I can salute to that

 

[Draegod]

Ironic. Nothing in those two quotes contradict each other, it's just your incapability in refuting them, along with everything else. You've brought yourself around in circles because you never had a solid basis and support from the manga to begin with. Well, interesting way of saying you've been laughably incorrect the entire time. Salute on that.



Lmao, guy is at best Mr. Popo level talking about Beerus. I'll look into it soon... That's a debate that's just annoying



More so people just that destroy the manga on a daily, lmao.

Beerus is getting his ass handed by me as we speak niguh! lol Yea yea, You thought it was going to be easy with such a easy character like itachi, but forgot I'm that niguh when it comes to Hyugas!

The hell y'all win? No arguments on how the duo lose yet so many useless post. lmao Bruhhhhh Don't get me started now. You've been ducking the Fade for the longest! lmao

 

[Waltz]

Ignorance would be for me to say its not possible to be true, because I havent seen it. I wont imply that.

I would clearly imply that chakra capacity =/= potent chakra. Kisame does not have powerful chakra, I know for a fact. What allowed Sasuke to escape, was the ability to gain even further power from his chakra, not by gaining more reserves. YOU cannot assume that chakra capacity is the way to countering this curse seal.

If the chakra became more powerful it means that his reserves extended. The Susano'o used by Sasuke to break Danzo's seal was not accessible prior and him accessing it means that his chakra evolved in quality and quantity. What broke the seal was the large burst of Chakra Sasuke released. Kisame can and has release d chakra at quantities greater than that. Daikodan as an example is a greater burst of forceful chakra than Sasuke's Susano'o meaning that it is you who cannot assume that Kisame is incapable of releasing a forceful enough amount of chakra to break Danzo's seal simply because he has not been shown to do so in an identical manner as Sasuke when he's already released a much more forceful amount of Chakra in one go. ​

I dont have scan specifically stating Samehada can only absorb exposed chakra. I'm going by feats. Samehada feats fail him to absorb Asuma's chakra blade (since we know it absorb users chakra nature automatically), fail to absorb Asuma's, Base Bee's, and Guy's chakra network. Literally anyone who has clashed against him, that were in Samehada's absorption box range.

Since you don't have a scan it means your claim was false. The supporting evidence that you presented here can be taken into consideration, yes, but since

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and Kisame being able to absorb Chakra from Samehada via physical touch really negates the supporting evidence. Tbh, this one scan refutes your argument:

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Here we see Samehada being able to absorb chakra from Bee's chakra network by simply biting him without actually puncturing his arm; Same rule applies to Enma except that Samehada's potential denotes that it can absorb all of his chakra in a second. As I said Chakra can be phased through cellular make up and even to subatomic levels. ​

Not sure if you read the chapter of Hiruzen capable of using all chakra nature at high level, and DB4 explaining mastering and knowing all nature altercation. And knowing all Konoha's ninjutsu. If you dont then I would refer to that.

Honestly, whatever it floats or not, isn't even the factor why I mention the usage of this jutsu in the first place. No need to break it down refuting it, I'll just drop it.

Being able to use all Chakra natures does not equate to knowing every jutsu. Lets apply some common sense here: After Tobirama died, Hiruzen was around 18. This was a non-prime Hiruzen as he wouldn't have access to learn clan techniques at that time. Tsunade, Jiraiya and Orochimaru became Genin at age 6 and there's 18 years between them (51 in part 1) and Hiruzen (69 in part 1) Meaning Hiruzen was 24 when he started teaching them. There's no way in 6 years that Hiruzen could have been hokage, done hokage duties (meetings, handle village affairs) have a family to care for and still had the time available to learn every single jutsu in Konoha and have an adept mastery over all; it's simply impossible. Seeing what Naruto goes through as a hokage and the little time he has for his family much less time for training should alert you that it's simply an impossibility. Then there's the fact that some of Konoha's ninjutsu require a KKG which Hiruzen does not have meaning that the impossibility of the overestimation of him knowing every ninjutsu in Konoha is certain. Even taking the claim into consideration to say that he did know many of Konoha's ninjutsu none of that is evidence of adept mastery over each and much more knowledge and adept mastery over the specific Jutsu's you're speculating he can produce. This is what KG was asking for proof of and I now understand why he hasn't responded. ​

Izanagi saves Danzo by taking advantage of using jutsu, enabling to cheat death. Danzo being inside WD is easy picking in catching Kisame inside a Reverse Four Seal. With them both being inside the prison, there's no way Kisame is escaping its range by just swimming out of its range. Unless Kisame starts off from a mid-far range already. But then Danzo wouldnt need to use the jutsu, and escape with other methods.

@Bold

Master all chakra nature alternation, at high level, and basically the full package on why he is titled the Professor. Never said Hiruzen can contain all of Kisame Suiton.

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, and lowering Kisame (via Doryūkatsu). Based on how Doryūkatsu works, creating a pit as deep as, lets say,

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. Kisame's Suiton would need to fill up the volume of the pit, once over flowed, then full up even further to reach over the earth crust Hiruzen elevated. This is what I meant in counter balancing the landscape

@ Bold: See above.

@ Izanagi: Except that Kisame already knows that Danzo can use the Reverse four symbol's seal. Kagebunshin and following him at a distance well enough for him to continuously drown counters that. I'm interested to know what other methods you believe Danzo could use to escape the dome. ​

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Contradiction and Circular reasoning are two different things FT, never said you contradicted yourself. I commented that Kisame needed to trick Bee for his counter to fail, only for you to say Ponta didnt matter and only matters if it was team co operation set up. I comment that Kisame compliment his counter towards his jutsu (despite Ponta being irrelevant to Kisame), only for you to say that it still didnt matter and made up your own excuses so it doesn't imply what you dont want it to apply.

My points were clear. "Every jutsu has a weak point". That was cleared. Only for you to make a comment "Meant countering the oppositions jutsu with your own capabilities." Which has nothing to do with the statement made in the manga.

So all you have been doing to refuting manga by changing its context to fit your own speculation. I can salute to that

False, and ironic. But I'm not going to sit here and correct you on everything that was actually said, when it's all literally written in this thread for whoever wants to go back and read what was really stated, instead of your current sorry cop out and excuse for being so inaccurate with the manga. GG though. Take the L from Waltz now too.

Beerus is getting his ass handed by me as we speak niguh! lol Yea yea, You thought it was going to be easy with such a easy character like itachi, but forgot I'm that niguh when it comes to Hyugas!

The hell y'all win? No arguments on how the duo lose yet so many useless post. lmao Bruhhhhh Don't get me started now. You've been ducking the Fade for the longest! lmao

Ducking the fade? I've already handed you countless L's, lmao.

 

[Icelerate]

Better make this fight Kisame and Hiruzen VS Temari.

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Edit: Stay butthurt Ghost in the Shell.

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[Brother Numpsay]

If the chakra became more powerful it means that his reserves extended. The Susano'o used by Sasuke to break Danzo's seal was not accessible prior and him accessing it means that his chakra evolved in quality and quantity. What broke the seal was the large burst of Chakra Sasuke released. Kisame can and has release d chakra at quantities greater than that. Daikodan as an example is a greater burst of forceful chakra than Sasuke's Susano'o meaning that it is you who cannot assume that Kisame is incapable of releasing a forceful enough amount of chakra to break Danzo's seal simply because he has not been shown to do so in an identical manner as Sasuke when he's already released a much more forceful amount of Chakra in one go.

So in the end you have no point. Your trying to argue that Kisame's quantity of chakra will make up for Sasuke's potency and "reserve boost" which is baseless, since once again, as it wasnt Sasuke's reserves that saved him. Your examples sets up the logic that anyone that can release a huge chakra blast by ninjutsu, lets say a character like Kakuzu, can break the seal and you dont need Kisames reserves to do so. Then the chakra reserves point become irrelevant.

Since you don't have a scan it means your claim was false. The supporting evidence that you presented here can be taken into consideration, yes, but since

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and Kisame being able to absorb Chakra from Samehada via physical touch really negates the supporting evidence. Tbh, this one scan refutes your argument:

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Here we see Samehada being able to absorb chakra from Bee's chakra network by simply biting him without actually puncturing his arm; Same rule applies to Enma except that Samehada's potential denotes that it can absorb all of his chakra in a second. As I said Chakra can be phased through cellular make up and even to subatomic levels.

Waltz why do I need to post a scan of something I know you clearly know about, so how does it makes it false? We dont have to babysit each other with scans, that we know happened in the manga. If were going to start picking imma have to call you out on saying Kisame can use KAGEBUSHIN. Back on topic:

The scan you provided was making by point that exposed charkra is easy take for Samehada. Always has been since part 1. Nothing new here.

Second scan, is something I already agreed. But I guess when I said, "actually needing to pierce", you could only assume to take it literally. My mistake.

Being able to use all Chakra natures does not equate to knowing every jutsu. Lets apply some common sense here: After Tobirama died, Hiruzen was around 18. This was a non-prime Hiruzen as he wouldn't have access to learn clan techniques at that time. Tsunade, Jiraiya and Orochimaru became Genin at age 6 and there's 18 years between them (51 in part 1) and Hiruzen (69 in part 1) Meaning Hiruzen was 24 when he started teaching them. There's no way in 6 years that Hiruzen could have been hokage, done hokage duties (meetings, handle village affairs) have a family to care for and still had the time available to learn every single jutsu in Konoha and have an adept mastery over all; it's simply impossible. Seeing what Naruto goes through as a hokage and the little time he has for his family much less time for training should alert you that it's simply an impossibility. Then there's the fact that some of Konoha's ninjutsu require a KKG which Hiruzen does not have meaning that the impossibility of the overestimation of him knowing every ninjutsu in Konoha is certain. Even taking the claim into consideration to say that he did know many of Konoha's ninjutsu none of that is evidence of adept mastery over each and much more knowledge and adept mastery over the specific Jutsu's you're speculating he can produce. This is what KG was asking for proof of and I now understand why he hasn't responded.

Your opinion to the timeline and you personally think what he in spare time, is irrelevant to the conclusion the manga/databook has given. So I'm definitely not going to go by your words.

"Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hiden, Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member". Hiruzen's talent>> any Hokage you want to mention.

@Bold can you please stop with this? It was already stated that he master all elements and already show them all at high level and at high ranking.:

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@Underline Lol have no idea what your talking about:

Nope. I agree that he can do it.

Everyone is on the same page but you.

@ Izanagi: Except that Kisame already knows that Danzo can use the Reverse four symbol's seal. Kagebunshin and following him at a distance well enough for him to continuously drown counters that. I'm interested to know what other methods you believe Danzo could use to escape the dome.

Danzo copies Mizu Bushins via Sharingan and have them all Kamikaze with Reverse four seal. Multiple seals would make it inescapable.

@Bold He changes his destiny by "moving" outside water, as it was a useless result being under waterdome. Simple.

 

[Waltz]

How can it not be Sasukes reserves that saved him when Sasuke produces his own Chakra and produced the Chakra he used to break the seal. Any Chakra Sasuke uses on his own is coming from his own reserves. No, my example says that if a Shinobi is capable of releasing chakra in a potent/ forceful manner as or even more forceful than Sasuke did when he broke the seal that the said Shinobi should have no issue breaking the seal since producing potent Chakra at that level (something they're already capable of) is canonically enough to break the seal.


You need to post the scan because to Waltz, word of mouth and speculation isn't evidence. If you're going to say Samehada can only absorb chakra that can been seen with the visible eye, Show me a scan implying such a limit.

Calling me out on a spelling error isn't the same as you making claims based on nothing but insufficient evidence when there is an actual manga scan contradicting your claim because I'd gladly accept that stating Kagebunshin instead of Mizubunshin was my error but subtracts nothing from my argument. Why would I not take you saying "actually needing to pierce" literally? If I'm to question what segments of your posts are literal and what segments are not then I can't take you seriously.

Again being a researcher and showing more talent than Tobirama and him being able to use all 5 natures is irrelevant to the proof I asked you to provide so once more, Hiruzen could not have learned every jutsu in Konoha because some require a KKG which hiruzen doesn't have so the databooks/mangas claim that he learned every jutsu in Konoha is false just like many other claims in it like Kabutowari being able to break all defenses and Yata being able to to defend against any and all attacks is false from a logical stand point. Wanking and rephrasing it doesn't make it true when it cannot be proven true. Just like kakashi having being claimed to copy over 1000 jutsu with no proof of this even occurring to such a quantity.

The only thing your colored manga scan proved is that he has Adept mastery over those jutsu. It doesn't prove that he learned and has adept mastery over the jutsu you're speculating he can produce.


Except that Kisame doesn't have to make the bunshins and is optional since he already knows Danzo can copy the jutsu. He can simply keep a distance well enough for Danzo to drown. This is after he eradicates Hiruzen with Daikodan.

How are u sure Danzo can escape its circumference?​

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[Brother Numpsay]

How can it not be Sasukes reserves that saved him when Sasuke produces his own Chakra and produced the Chakra he used to break the seal. Any Chakra Sasuke uses on his own is coming from his own reserves. No, my example says that if a Shinobi is capable of releasing chakra in a potent/ forceful manner as or even more forceful than Sasuke did when he broke the seal that the said Shinobi should have no issue breaking the seal since producing potent Chakra at that level (something they're already capable of) is canonically enough to break the seal.

@Bold:

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Once again reserves is irrelevant on how and why Sasuke broke out of the seal. It was his powerful chakra that did. Kisame does not have potent chakra nor is GSB made from having potent chakra. Nor is any of Kisame ninjutsu made from any potent chakra comparable to Sasuke. And even if I were to believe he did, to access this "potent" chakra, he would need hand signs to access it, which seals restrict his hands from doing.

You need to post the scan because to Waltz, word of mouth and speculation isn't evidence. If you're going to say Samehada can only absorb chakra that can been seen with the visible eye, Show me a scan implying such a limit.

So are you really saying all the characters and scenarios I mention you dont believe happen? Or you just want to make a clear statement on something here. Let me know so I can get myself ready to babysit with manga scans, I thought we both have finish reading already.

Calling me out on a spelling error isn't the same as you making claims based on nothing but insufficient evidence when there is an actual manga scan contradicting your claim because I'd gladly accept that stating Kagebunshin instead of Mizubunshin was my error but subtracts nothing from my argument. Why would I not take you saying "actually needing to pierce" literally? If I'm to question what segments of your posts are literal and what segments are not then I can't take you seriously.

You didnt make a spelling error you outright made a claim of Kisame doing a jutsu he was never capable of doing, but I knew what you meant because common sense, and the fact that I know you are a reasonable person.

Well I was hoping you wouldn't take that word seriously based on the fact Samehada blade isnt capable of piercing through a cloak like V2 (the only scenario Samehada pierce an opponent in the manga.) And I mistakenly assume that you would know what I was referring to.

Again being a researcher and showing more talent than Tobirama and him being able to use all 5 natures is irrelevant to the proof I asked you to provide so once more, Hiruzen could not have learned every jutsu in Konoha because some require a KKG which hiruzen doesn't have so the databooks/mangas claim that he learned every jutsu in Konoha is false just like many other claims in it like Kabutowari being able to break all defenses and Yata being able to to defend against any and all attacks is false from a logical stand point. Wanking and rephrasing it doesn't make it true when it cannot be proven true. Just like kakashi having being claimed to copy over 1000 jutsu with no proof of this even occurring to such a quantity.

The proof is what you claim is irrelevant. You want me to prove he can use the Doton in my premise. When the scan or quote references states all his elements are at high level and his element feats back him up. Common sense shows that Hiruzen statement, concerning all Konoha's ninjutsu, shouldn't be taken out of context to imply jutsu not regulated, such as KKG. If it can be taught in Konoha, its usable to Hiruzen in context. Period.

The only thing your colored manga scan proved is that he has Adept mastery over those jutsu. It doesn't prove that he learned and has adept mastery over the jutsu you're speculating he can produce.

Lol dude. Being able to use mastery over all elements means all basic elements in Konoha is childs play. Already proved that he can use B rank ninjutsu (highest form that can be taught), so my claim of him using C-rank and B-rank Doton available to Konoha is undeniable. The funny thing is those element jutsus arent even specified, That just a generic stream of all chakra natures Lol.

Except that Kisame doesn't have to make the bunshins and is optional since he already knows Danzo can copy the jutsu. He can simply keep a distance well enough for Danzo to drown. This is after he eradicates Hiruzen with Daikodan.

So every point you address Kisame doing, kills him Lol. And no Danzo isnt drowning.

Daikodan gets dodged or tanked by Enma cage. Or Doton, using the Earth as a source of wall (non chakra).

How are u sure Danzo can escape its circumference?

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It would be no different then Obito escaping the pit from Konans Paper God

 

[Waltz]

Potent simply means powerful/forceful. I'll say this one last time. When a character uses chakra whether in a potent manner or not it comes from their reserves. Are you too dense to understand that the powerful chakra Sasuke used had to come from some where and wasn't something he pulled out of his ass? Sasukes Susanoo is a Jutsu of his Sharingan and his Sharingan is connected to chakra sprouts in his brain via the optic nerve. These chakra spounts are apart of his chakra network where chakra is produced in his body or in other words his Chakra reserves and for the third time, I never said his "reserves" allowed him to break the seal because obviously having a large reserve of chakra doesn't mean you can release a large quantity of it in a powerful burst, tsunade being the greatest example. This is something you have been stating to which I agree. I said the powerful chakra he released came from his reserves and that is what saved him. My point is, again for the third time Kisame can and has released potent chakra greater than what Sasuke did with his Susanoo in one go and as long as a shinobi can release a burst of potent Chakra on that level they should have 0 issues breaking Danzo's seal.


No if you read my previos post accurately, which I doubt you did because you've just been going on meaningless rants, I said the supporting evidence that you provided to support your claim can be taken into consideration but then there are scans that already negate the claim entirely. Your claim that Samehada can only absorb chakra that can be seen with the visible eye is false because we've seen it do exactly just that. It not doing so against Gai and Asuma for whatever reason doesn't matter because there's already proof that it can absorb chakra from the Chaka Network via physical touch.



It was a spelling error, nothing arbitrary and ok.

Except that you forgot the KKG techniques fall under the category of "Konoha's Jutsu" , all of which Hiruzen should know so it is within context. What you're trying to do is to personally determine which Jutsus in Konoha are Kononhas Jutsus and which are not and you're trying to feed me this as fact or logical reason when its nothing but bias to support the impossibility of your personal beliefs and the Databooks impossible claim that Hiruzen knew all the Jutsu in Konoha.


[...]

Three posts in a row you're wanking Hiruzens mastery over the elements as proof that he does know the Jutsu. I never denied him having mastery over the elements I denied him Knowing and having an adept mastery of the specific Jutsu's you're speculating he could produce and I ask for proof of this because I've already proven to you from two different spectrum's why it would have been impossible for Hiruzen to know all the Jutsu in Konoha.

What prevents Danzo from Drowning? So far the only options you've provided is either that he drowns or Suicide. Enma gets his chakra drained along with Hiruzen and consumed and I didn't know the cage could defend againat water molecules. The only Doton wall Hiruzen would be able to produce would be strictly Chakra because the ground would be covered in water.

Obitos use of Izanagi was superior to Danzo's. So referencing what he was able to accomplish has nothing to do with Danzo. Try again.
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[Curse Mark]

OT: OP didn't even restrict RDS which means team 2 has both a Long and short range technique that could Kill Kisame with the sacrifice of the user. The only way the WD would work towards victory is if Kisame kills Hiruzen first because once the Dome is up Kisame has to keep his distance from Danzo but enough that his ability to reappear from Izanagi is within the WD's circumference. if he resorts to chasing Hiruzen who has Shadown clones Danzo will escape the Dome and will probably not be caught in it again. If Kisame focuses on Danzo, Hiruzen will escape the Dome. Even if Kisame makes a bunshin to follow Danzo the Dome will revolve around him and Danzo will still escape and vice versa for Hiruzen. I'm thinking that team 2 has the greater possibility of winning than not and definitely would if Intel was Manga knowledge but in this case, strategically the most efficient way for Kisame to win is by taking out Hiruzen as early as possible with GSB before making the WD then to continuously kill Danzo but even in that case Izanagi could allow Danzo to get close enough to Kisame to use RFSS which would end In a stalemate. So its either team 2 wins or a stalemate and Kisame loses this Matchup.​

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Hiruzen should have used clones + RDS on Madara and Obito.

 

[Waltz]

Hiruzen should have used clones + RDS on Madara and Obito.

Yup but plot has gotten famous off limiting characters potentials.​

 

[Waltz]

OT: OP didn't even restrict RDS which means team 2 has both a Long and short range technique that could Kill Kisame with the sacrifice of the user. The only way the WD would work towards victory is if Kisame kills Hiruzen first because once the Dome is up Kisame has to keep his distance from Danzo but enough that his ability to reappear from Izanagi is within the WD's circumference. if he resorts to chasing Hiruzen who has Shadown clones Danzo will escape the Dome and will probably not be caught in it again. If Kisame focuses on Danzo, Hiruzen will escape the Dome. Even if Kisame makes a bunshin to follow Danzo the Dome will revolve around him and Danzo will still escape and vice versa for Hiruzen. I'm thinking that team 2 has the greater possibility of winning than not and definitely would if Intel was Manga knowledge but in this case, strategically the most efficient way for Kisame to win is by taking out Hiruzen as early as possible with GSB before making the WD then to continuously kill Danzo but even in that case Izanagi could allow Danzo to get close enough to Kisame to use RFSS which would end In a stalemate. So its either team 2 wins or a stalemate and Kisame loses this Matchup.​

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[Curse Mark]

Yup but plot has gotten famous off limiting characters potentials.​

He's an author, he's gonna write the better story. (also the longer story for more profit but still)

 

[Waltz]

He's an author, he's gonna write the better story. (also the longer story for more profit but still)

I agree on both points as I doubt he overlooked or arbitrarily limited characters; a better story from his point of view may just be the best reasoning behind it.​

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[Brother Numpsay]

I said the powerful chakra he released came from his reserves and that is what saved him. My point is, again for the third time Kisame can and has released potent chakra greater than what Sasuke did with his Susanoo in one go and as long as a shinobi can release a burst of potent Chakra on that level they should have 0 issues breaking Danzo's seal.

Deleting parts that are irrelevant. Now:

1.Again @Bold Base on what, can you claim that Kisame's potent chakra is greater then Sasuke's? Edit: let me rephrase. How does kisame shooting a bigger chakra cannon automatically mean more potent justsu?

2. Again for Kisame to release that kind of chakra you are suggesting, is to weave hand seals to built that "powerful" chakra. So how does a restricted Kisame do it, when Sasuke needed a non hand-seal chakra built jutsu to overpower it?

No if you read my previos post accurately, which I doubt you did because you've just been going on meaningless rants, I said the supporting evidence that you provided to support your claim can be taken into consideration but then there are scans that already negate the claim entirely. Your claim that Samehada can only absorb chakra that can be seen with the visible eye is false because we've seen it do exactly just that. It not doing so against Gai and Asuma for whatever reason doesn't matter because there's already proof that it can absorb chakra from the Chaka Network via physical touch. It was a spelling error, nothing arbitrary and ok.

Except that you forgot the KKG techniques fall under the category of "Konoha's Jutsu" , all of which Hiruzen should know so it is within context. What you're trying to do is to personally determine which Jutsus in Konoha are Kononhas Jutsus and which are not and you're trying to feed me this as fact or logical reason when its nothing but bias to support the impossibility of your personal beliefs and the Databooks impossible claim that Hiruzen knew all the Jutsu in Konoha.

Lol no its not within the context because the context is stated to what can be taught. Using all chakra natures needs to be taught. Using Konoha's Hiden needs to be taught (Databook states his relationship with Konoha gave him access to learn). He knows them both. Part 1 already broke down KKG, and why it isn't possible unless bloodline. Part 1 says Hiruzen can use all Konoha ninjutsu. And then Part 2 rehashes Hiruzen capability with feats backing him up. Therefore we can use common sense that KKG is not part of its context and use common sense that Hiruzen feats backs him up to the claims I have made to the jutsus he has access to.

Three posts in a row you're wanking Hiruzens mastery over the elements as proof that he does know the Jutsu. I never denied him having mastery over the elements I denied him Knowing and having an adept mastery of the specific Jutsu's you're speculating he could produce and I ask for proof of this because I've already proven to you from two different spectrum's why it would have been impossible for Hiruzen to know all the Jutsu in Konoha.

1. @Bold Hiruzen knows the jutsu I have used in my premise is based on a jutsu that has been taught in Konoha. As its been backed up by manga and databook that Hiruzen knows about all the ninjutsu there, giving him the title "The Professor".


2. @Underline: Hiruzen has mastery over this specific Doton in my premise, based on the fact that he has the feats of using higher level Doton, that is learn in Konoha. Lower ranking Doton, used in my premise, therefore is not difficult for someone who has used a much more experience Doton jutsu in his capability.

3. It is possible in spectrum because both manga and databook supports the notion that Hiruzen is the most skill and talent Hokage. Despite your personal mathematical timeline on where it led you to believe in the logic of "not having time ", has been debunk by the fact.

What prevents Danzo from Drowning? So far the only options you've provided is either that he drowns or Suicide. Enma gets his chakra drained along with Hiruzen and consumed and I didn't know the cage could defend againat water molecules. The only Doton wall Hiruzen would be able to produce would be strictly Chakra because the ground would be covered in water.

No I post a scan of Danzo's Izanagi stated to which he can delete the result of being inside WD.

GSB states absorbing ninjutsu. So without any jutsu feeding it, its just a water blast. Cage doesnt defend against water molecules, Cage was meant in defense to reduce the impact force of the water, enabling Hiruzen to survive.

Obitos use of Izanagi was superior to Danzo's. So referencing what he was able to accomplish has nothing to do with Danzo. Try again.
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Obito's Izanagi was superior because of having better usage of Hashirama cells and duration of the Sharingan. Not because his Izanagi had some different priorities.

Already post a scan of Obito's view on Danzo's Izanagi, by portraying his face to cover the whole battle field (stating can control both space and reality). And by Itachi's statement

 

[Draegod]

Deleting parts that are irrelevant. Now:

1.Again @Bold Base on what, can you claim that Kisame's potent chakra is greater then Sasuke's?

2. Again for Kisame to release that kind of chakra you are suggesting, is to weave hand seals to built that "powerful" chakra. So how does a restricted Kisame do it, when Sasuke needed a non hand-seal chakra built jutsu to overpower it?






Lol no its not within the context because the context is stated to what can be taught. Using all chakra natures needs to be taught. Using Konoha's Hiden needs to be taught (Databook states his relationship with Konoha gave him access to learn). He knows them both. Part 1 already broke down KKG, and why it isn't possible unless bloodline. Part 1 says Hiruzen can use all Konoha ninjutsu. And then Part 2 rehashes Hiruzen capability with feats backing him up. Therefore we can use common sense that KKG is not part of its context and use common sense that Hiruzen feats backs him up to the claims I have made to the jutsus he has access to.



1. @Bold Hiruzen knows the jutsu I have used in my premise is based on a jutsu that has been taught in Konoha. As its been backed up by manga and databook that Hiruzen knows about all the ninjutsu there, giving him the title "The Professor".


2. @Underline: Hiruzen has mastery over this specific Doton in my premise, based on the fact that he has the feats of using higher level Doton, that is learn in Konoha. Lower ranking Doton, used in my premise, therefore is not difficult for someone who has used a much more experience Doton jutsu in his capability.

3. It is possible in spectrum because both manga and databook supports the notion that Hiruzen is the most skill and talent Hokage. Despite your personal mathematical timeline on where it led you to believe in the logic of "not having time ", has been debunk by the fact.



No I post a scan of Danzo's Izanagi stated to which he can delete the result of being inside WD.

GSB states absorbing ninjutsu. So without any jutsu feeding it, its just a water blast. Cage doesnt defend against water molecules, Cage was meant in defense to reduce the impact force of the water, enabling Hiruzen to survive.



Obito's Izanagi was superior because of having better usage of Hashirama cells and duration of the Sharingan. Not because his Izanagi had some different priorities.

Already post a scan of Obito's view on Danzo's Izanagi, by portraying his face to cover the whole battle field (stating can control both space and reality). And by Itachi's statement

You're wasting your time. It's a reason KG them didnt deny the manga and databook fact on multiple Jutsu. Waltz is just tripping because he hates Hiruzen. Nothing to prove when Facts with manga and databook states/shows otherwise. You're literally wasting your time since Waltz is fueld by hate at the moment.

 

[Waltz]

Deleting parts that are irrelevant. Now:

1.Again @Bold Base on what, can you claim that Kisame's potent chakra is greater then Sasuke's? Edit: let me rephrase. How does kisame shooting a bigger chakra cannon automatically mean more potent justsu?

2. Again for Kisame to release that kind of chakra you are suggesting, is to weave hand seals to built that "powerful" chakra. So how does a restricted Kisame do it, when Sasuke needed a non hand-seal chakra built jutsu to overpower it?






Lol no its not within the context because the context is stated to what can be taught. Using all chakra natures needs to be taught. Using Konoha's Hiden needs to be taught (Databook states his relationship with Konoha gave him access to learn). He knows them both. Part 1 already broke down KKG, and why it isn't possible unless bloodline. Part 1 says Hiruzen can use all Konoha ninjutsu. And then Part 2 rehashes Hiruzen capability with feats backing him up. Therefore we can use common sense that KKG is not part of its context and use common sense that Hiruzen feats backs him up to the claims I have made to the jutsus he has access to.



1. @Bold Hiruzen knows the jutsu I have used in my premise is based on a jutsu that has been taught in Konoha. As its been backed up by manga and databook that Hiruzen knows about all the ninjutsu there, giving him the title "The Professor".


2. @Underline: Hiruzen has mastery over this specific Doton in my premise, based on the fact that he has the feats of using higher level Doton, that is learn in Konoha. Lower ranking Doton, used in my premise, therefore is not difficult for someone who has used a much more experience Doton jutsu in his capability.

3. It is possible in spectrum because both manga and databook supports the notion that Hiruzen is the most skill and talent Hokage. Despite your personal mathematical timeline on where it led you to believe in the logic of "not having time ", has been debunk by the fact.



No I post a scan of Danzo's Izanagi stated to which he can delete the result of being inside WD.

GSB states absorbing ninjutsu. So without any jutsu feeding it, its just a water blast. Cage doesnt defend against water molecules, Cage was meant in defense to reduce the impact force of the water, enabling Hiruzen to survive.



Obito's Izanagi was superior because of having better usage of Hashirama cells and duration of the Sharingan. Not because his Izanagi had some different priorities.

Already post a scan of Obito's view on Danzo's Izanagi, by portraying his face to cover the whole battle field (stating can control both space and reality). And by Itachi's statement

Samehada would consume the seals chakra until Kisame can make the seal.


Alright What you're saying regarding what is thought in Konoha makes sense and I can accept that as being supportive to the claim. All that's left is valid documentation to prove that he actually learned every Jutsu and i'm even willing to theoretically accept that as fact and ask whether you think he is capable of in all states to perform every teachable jutsu in Konoha that should be in his repertoire.

You forgot that Enmas transformation is Ninjutsu and the change in duration of Izanagi is a change in its properties but even if the circumference of which Danzo can reappear in reality is inferior to Obito's you're right that he'd still escape the dome multiplying his max distance by the number of eyes.
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[Brother Numpsay]

Samehada would consume the seals chakra until Kisame can make the seal.

Both Samehada and Preta had the opportunity to prove if there absorption technique can take away or tempter with seals against both Bee (Iron Seal) and Naruto (Eight Trigrams Sealing). They haven't, so Im incline to think Sealing jutsu aren't absorb-able. You either overpower it (as Sasuke did to Danzo and Obito did to FTG) or counter it with another sealing jutu (Itachi did to Sasuke's curse seal and Orochimaru did to Naruto's Trigram).

and ask whether you think he is capable of in all states to perform every teachable jutsu in Konoha that should be in his repertoire.

Im more interested in answering this quote I didnt delete, cause every "jutsu" is a broad statement to try and prove, and the fact that DB specifically stated "nin", "gen", and Hiden. Nothing stating the context of knowing all Fuinjutsu/Juinjutsu/Jujutsu, Taijutsu, and other formats of "jutsu". Based on Hiruzen feats, I very much support the notion that any element jutsu we witness inside Konoha (not characters that left the village and learn other jutsu outside of Konoha) is acceptable to Hiruzen. And you can throw away Raikiri out of the equation, to be fair. Hiden acceptable would be the one that doesnt need outside sources support. So Aburame and Inuzuka are unacceptable (though his nose sense can have some influence).

You forgot that Enmas transformation is Ninjutsu

Right a supplement. I tend to believe transformation will have the same effect against Preta.

and the change in duration of Izanagi is a change in its properties but even if the circumference of which Danzo can reappear in reality is inferior to Obito's you're right that he'd still escape the dome multiplying his max distance by the number of eyes.

 

[Waltz]

Both Samehada and Preta had the opportunity to prove if there absorption technique can take away or tempter with seals against both Bee (Iron Seal) and Naruto (Eight Trigrams Sealing). They haven't, so Im incline to think Sealing jutsu aren't absorb-able. You either overpower it (as Sasuke did to Danzo and Obito did to FTG) or counter it with another sealing jutu (Itachi did to Sasuke's curse seal and Orochimaru did to Naruto's Trigram).



Im more interested in answering this quote I didnt delete, cause every "jutsu" is a broad statement to try and prove, and the fact that DB specifically stated "nin", "gen", and Hiden. Nothing stating the context of knowing all Fuinjutsu/Juinjutsu/Jujutsu, Taijutsu, and other formats of "jutsu". Based on Hiruzen feats, I very much support the notion that any element jutsu we witness inside Konoha (not characters that left the village and learn other jutsu outside of Konoha) is acceptable to Hiruzen. And you can throw away Raikiri out of the equation, to be fair. Hiden acceptable would be the one that doesnt need outside sources support. So Aburame and Inuzuka are unacceptable (though his nose sense can have some influence).



Right a supplement. I tend to believe transformation will have the same effect against Preta.

Alright. When I said all states I was literally referring to states asking, more so if you believe whether Hiruzen at 70 was physically capable and mentality adequate to proform this vast array of jutsu or not and if not how do you personally differentiate what's available.​

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