SW442
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I just copied and pasted it from when I posted on another site a while back. I decide to thread it here, since this is a place to debate character strength and/or matches, why not. Anyway, these 2 seem to be very underestimated, possibly the most underrated in the series. I hear alot of how Darui trashed them, and that they were fodder.
But I find Darui very overrated by alot of fandom in that fight. Darui is a Kage class ninja, no doubt. So I am not saying he's weak. But I really don't see him being stronger than KinGin, rather than just lucky.
The brothers didn't get beat because they were weak. And if they hadn't gone there messing around, as it seemed, they probably could have killed everyone in the 1st division. Kinkaku alone took out a good chunk of it. The databook states that Kinkaku and Ginkaku are each worth 1,000 ninja a piece with their Kyuubi ability-and also they they had their own natural abilities that were of high value. Had they been bloodlusted from the start, Darui and a good bit more, if not all of the 1st division probably would have been killed.
Darui had
info on the brother's tools-and he still got caught
2 lucky saves
And an army's worth of ninja for back-up with very hax abilities and the brothers' own Sage tool used against them.
Not exactly fair to act like Darui beat them down easily, with his own skill.
If KinGin are fodder, than damn near NONE of the Edo were powerful. Didn't Chouji just sit on Kakuzu? and Kankurou easily captured Deidara, who apparently couldn't escape from that puppet. Haku and Zabuza didn't stick around long either it seemed. And lets not forget Gaara's father, who was gone in no more than 3 chapters, despite being a Kazekage.
But I find Darui very overrated by alot of fandom in that fight. Darui is a Kage class ninja, no doubt. So I am not saying he's weak. But I really don't see him being stronger than KinGin, rather than just lucky.
Now, with the weapons and sealing. Raikage said Tobirama was almost killed. However, the weapons don’t “almost” do anything. They either seal or they don’t. Not counting the fan, of course, and the sword if just used as a melee weapon.
When Kishi drew the Kage, when talking about the coup, he had blood all around them.
Seems to show the brothers bloodied up the Kage when they went there. Playing that word game wouldn't leave behind blood and bodies.
So, they surely had skill outside of those weapons that were good. Because apparently, both Kage avoided being sealed. And the vibe I got was that they were toying around when they were resurrected. Because the databook stated they both used Kyuubi chakra during that assassination attempt, which neither of them used when facing Darui.
KinGin and the Kinkaku Butai
Now back to the present day battle.
Those weapons seem impracticable. The rope is fine, but it seems to constantly drain chakra, or chakra has to constantly be outputted while activated to keep the kotodama-squeezer activated.
Ginkaku had it around his neck with no consequence, but couldn’t touch while it was on Kinkaku. Then that big gourd is definitely not practical, having to be carried, thus Ginkaku only having 1 arm to fight with.
But even with that, it took Darui 2 hands to hold off a one-handed Ginkaku when they clashed shortly.
Noticing the squiggle lines around Darui’s sword, seems to indicate he’s the one straining.
Ginkaku can slice a Zetsu clean in half with just one arm.
Also notice, Darui never did overpower Ginkaku in their short clash. Darui had to duck and get out of the way, rather than try to block Ginkaku’s swing.
So Ginkaku doesn't appear weak. He is smaller, and given what we have seen, it seems he’s the weaker of the two brothers-but even with that, he seems to be physically stronger than Darui from what we see here. His one of his arms is as strong, if not stronger than Darui's two
Ginkaku also doesn't appear to be slow. After sucking up Atsui, Samui cries out for him. But shortly after she cries out, Ginkaku is already behind her and covered her mouth.
Samui has a “?!” there. So seems she’s surprised. Evidently Ginkaku moved fast for her.
Is he fast as Gai or Raikage? Of course I am not saying that. But still pretty quick on his feet. So I wager the brothers aren’t slow. But there’s middle ground between being a speedster and being slow.
So here, Ginkaku’s speed seems decent. Purely opinion, but If I had to give him a stat in speed, I’d give him a 3.5 at lowest.
Samui + Atsui both charge Kinkaku, but his reaction time and strength seem to be top notch, being he manages to knock them both away in one hit each, while taking no hits himself.
Samui was trained by B, so I doubt she’s slow. But neither of the siblings managed to touch Kinkaku from the looks of it. He knocked them away before they got that far, despite it being 2:1.
When the coup d'etat happened, the Kage were left at death’s door. Least the Hokage was. They may have killed the Raikage since they knew who the 3rd was. He, apparently, was appointed before they were killed.
Now again, the weapons seal or don’t seal. There’s no in-between. And since they were trying to take over, or working for someone who wanted to take over, I don’t think they went there to screw around.
I see many bring up that “If they weren't Edo, Darui would have killed them.”
But, I can say, since they all seem to be aware of the jutsu, they know they’re immortal, and will just regenerate. So, strategy probably doesn't seem like high priority. It’s like Kakuzu and Hidan who used dangerous combo attacks, knowing the other would just tank it, due to their nigh invulnerability.
And, as we see, the immortality can be used to their advantage. I hear the argument, alot, that “if they weren't zombies, Darui beat them fast.” But again, I could say,f they were alive, they’d have been more cautious.
Like Darui’s Laser Circus. When it was coming toward Ginkaku, he still held on to Samui, but was shocked to find they were guided, which hit him.
Had he been a living being, he may have let Samui go. But as a zombie he held on, hoping the attack would hit both of them, and get Samui.
Sadly, with it being guided, it went around her, and got him alone. Probably not a chance he’d have taken alive. As an Edo, he'd regenerate. Samui would not. I am not saying that indefinitely. As we have no proof how the brothers fought when alive. But given that, there’s no telling how Darui would have done then either.
So bringing in, "If they were alive" doesn't prove anything. Because the simple fact is, they weren't, and they were aware of it.
We then see Kinkaku charge at Darui while he’s stunned from the effects of the rope. Kinkaku could have easily severed Darui’s head, and that’d have been the end of him.
But playing around seemed to be what they cared more about doing. They didn't seem too rushed to kill right away, because not like that had anywhere to be or anything to get done.
Kyuubi Shrouds
With the shrouds. I believe they can activate them any time they wish. Kakuzu says he saw Kinkaku use it when Ginkaku went down. But nothing said “he can only do that when Ginkaku dies.”
That’s just when it’s prone to manifesting itself through his rage. Like when Naruto gets pissed, the chakra seeps through. But just because it manifests in his rage doesn't mean he can’t tap into it, if he sees fit.
Kumo sources say the brothers emerged from Kurama’s mouth looking like mini-kyuubi.
Both were alive, so nobody was raging then, and I am sure they had to be able to deactivate those forms. And again, databook states they used Kyuubi chakra during the coup d'etat. If they both used it, that shows neither of them has to be dead before the other can access it.
Intelligence
I then hear many saying the brothers aren't too smart. But where has Kinkaku been shown to be stupid, exactly? From their showing, I won’t say they’re geniuses of the Shikaku caliber.
But I don’t think they’re Beavis + Butthead, or just dumb muscle like Yammy of Bleach either.
At least Kiinkaku has been shown as being perceptive / observant / clever. Whatever you wanna call it.
After being revived, he is the one that notices Darui’s tattoo, and connects him to the 3rd, already being aware he’s, at least, a decent fighter.
After seeing Atsui’s word being hot, he promptly knows how to get him to say it.
When Darui lopped off his arm, he thought to kick it into him to nail him with the rope
When Darui lectures the 2, Kinkaku is able to figure out, quickly, that Darui said his word and could be sealed.
When Darui escapes sealing, Kinkaku is shocked, but is able to deduce why things played out as they did.
All of these aren’t that of a genius. But it certainly doesn’t paint Kinkaku as an idiot. His intelligence seems average at the least, and average is not bad. It’s normal, hence why it's called average. That’s still not stupid, like some seem to think.
Now Ginkaku’s intelligence, and perception can be debated. Seems like Kinkaku will be the brother to notice something 1st, and figure stuff out, which he then relays to Ginkaku.
So I won’t say Ginka is an idiot. He did know to cover Samui's mouth to get her sealed. But Kin seems to be the smarter, and more composed, of the two. So Kin seems fine in the intelligence department. Ginkaku, is questionable.
Kinkakyu
Now with KinkaKyuubi, many downplay him being “He lost to Ino, Shika, and Chouji.” But really, as TenTen said, Kinka was tearing through that division like crazy.
Kinkaku was the only summon there that had to have a special, hax, unbeatable sage tool there to seal him. They couldn’t beat him down, and seal him through normal means. Raikage stating he was unstoppable, and the pot was the only other way.
And he only lost due to the combined efforts of many Shinobi, plus a good bit of luck. But people will simplify the events, and call Kinkaku fodder because “He lost to Ino, who even Sakura beat.” A few things about that.
1. Ino was only 12. I am sure she’s improved after 4 years.
2. Ino used up too much chakra before she used that jutsu, as noted by Asuma + Kakashi. So the jutsu was less effective.
3. Sakura didn’t break out instantly. Ino had her beat even despite the former issues of chakra loss, and inexperience. However, Naruto calling out to Sakura allowed her spirit to awaken and fight back. And even then a fight for dominance followed before Ino had to release.
With Kinkaku all it took was a few seconds for her to say she had him, and “yes” when he was called. The jutsu itself is very hax. A Kekkei Genkai of the Yamanaka clan. So one losing to that doesn’t = fodder to me. People just say such because it was Ino.
Then there’s Kinkaku’s will or brute strength, He, from what I recall, is the only one that’s been able to outright break shadow-binding.
Though it’s been a while since I read part one, maybe I missed something.
But far as I know Kakuzu got out, but that was because his arm was free and cut it off at the source.
Had he not detached his arm, he’d have not been able to do that it seems, and apparently given how hard they were avoiding getting caught in it, they were taking it’s power seriously. Unlike Kin who got caught, and broke it in a few seconds.
So, while the brothers didn't get a drawn out battle against other god Shinobi, I think they showed to be a threat, and I don’t think they’re as weak and stupid as some fans claim.
And really Darui’s word changing was a pure fluke and luck on his part. So, he didn't beat the brothers on skill alone. Because his word change, naturally the brothers didn't think he was still around. So, a lucky break is what gave him an opening against Ginkaku.
As we saw earlier, Ginkaku seems to be stronger than Darui. But he attacked an unarmed Ginkaku with his weapon. So of course that's advantageous.
The protagonists had luck / convenience + Teamwork. Everyone had to work together to take down just one of them. That was the point of Darui’s copper > Gold speech.
Gold beats copper by itself. Just as the brothers were stronger than any one person there, most likely. But if you have enough copper coins, you can match gold in value, and pass it.
As the databook said, Kin and Gin’s power, a piece, can match 1000, and that they’re great war potential.
In any case
1. Ino couldn't have nailed Kin if Shikamaru didn’t bind him.
2. Shikamaru couldn’t bind if Chouji hadn't hit him, distracting.
3. Chouji couldn't have gotten as close without the Kunai distraction, which took a good number of division members.
5. And all of these things would have still meant nothing without that pot.
6. And the pot wouldn't have made it in time if not for Mabui’s convenient jutsu.
7. And even the pot wouldn't have worked if not for Ino's jutsu. because Kinkaku knew to not answer.
And, Kinkaku had Darui again when he came down on him in Kyuubi mode. Darui had lost sight of him.
Kitsuchi just had some grand timing, which was Darui’s 2nd lucky save in that battle,
So Kinkaku alone required all this work and all these ninja working together. Everyone who was there was needed, and without even just one of the things they used, they'd not have won.
Then we see the reaction to Kinkaku’s capture.
That’s a good number of ninja, and everyone felt the need to rejoice at bringing down Kinkaku.
When Kishi drew the Kage, when talking about the coup, he had blood all around them.
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Seems to show the brothers bloodied up the Kage when they went there. Playing that word game wouldn't leave behind blood and bodies.
So, they surely had skill outside of those weapons that were good. Because apparently, both Kage avoided being sealed. And the vibe I got was that they were toying around when they were resurrected. Because the databook stated they both used Kyuubi chakra during that assassination attempt, which neither of them used when facing Darui.
KinGin and the Kinkaku Butai
People always say "Tobirama lost to 20 ninja."
That was 2 separate events. The coup happened during an alliance meeting, where the Raikage was also with him for back-up. Databook states KinGin left both of them in critical condition. Then later, shown in Danzou's flashback, the Kinkaku Butai is what actually killed Tobirama, and KinGin may or may not have been apart of the group when that happened.
I don't see how people think both happened in one day. Since Tobirama was killed there, it had to have happened after the coup, since a dead man wouldn't have arrived at a meeting. And because it happened after the coup incident, it couldn't have been the same day because Tobirama was half-dead when KinGin got done with him.
He does not look near dead in the forest
Those events did not happen on the same day.Two Separate Battles that people seem content to run together into 1 event. Now whether KinGin were in the force at the time or Tobirama's death, all boils down to headcanon.
So again, KinGin were NOT proven to be in the squad that killed Tobirama. Yes, it has the same name as the man. But KinGin were criminals by that point. So it would seem odd for outlaws who attacked their own Kage to still be working in the village. The brothers staged a coup d'etat, and databook states they used those weapons and Kyuubi chakra. It said nothing about them using a squad of ninja in that incident.
That was 2 separate events. The coup happened during an alliance meeting, where the Raikage was also with him for back-up. Databook states KinGin left both of them in critical condition. Then later, shown in Danzou's flashback, the Kinkaku Butai is what actually killed Tobirama, and KinGin may or may not have been apart of the group when that happened.
I don't see how people think both happened in one day. Since Tobirama was killed there, it had to have happened after the coup, since a dead man wouldn't have arrived at a meeting. And because it happened after the coup incident, it couldn't have been the same day because Tobirama was half-dead when KinGin got done with him.
He does not look near dead in the forest
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Those events did not happen on the same day.Two Separate Battles that people seem content to run together into 1 event. Now whether KinGin were in the force at the time or Tobirama's death, all boils down to headcanon.
So again, KinGin were NOT proven to be in the squad that killed Tobirama. Yes, it has the same name as the man. But KinGin were criminals by that point. So it would seem odd for outlaws who attacked their own Kage to still be working in the village. The brothers staged a coup d'etat, and databook states they used those weapons and Kyuubi chakra. It said nothing about them using a squad of ninja in that incident.
Now back to the present day battle.
Those weapons seem impracticable. The rope is fine, but it seems to constantly drain chakra, or chakra has to constantly be outputted while activated to keep the kotodama-squeezer activated.
Ginkaku had it around his neck with no consequence, but couldn’t touch while it was on Kinkaku. Then that big gourd is definitely not practical, having to be carried, thus Ginkaku only having 1 arm to fight with.
But even with that, it took Darui 2 hands to hold off a one-handed Ginkaku when they clashed shortly.
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Noticing the squiggle lines around Darui’s sword, seems to indicate he’s the one straining.
Ginkaku can slice a Zetsu clean in half with just one arm.
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Also notice, Darui never did overpower Ginkaku in their short clash. Darui had to duck and get out of the way, rather than try to block Ginkaku’s swing.
So Ginkaku doesn't appear weak. He is smaller, and given what we have seen, it seems he’s the weaker of the two brothers-but even with that, he seems to be physically stronger than Darui from what we see here. His one of his arms is as strong, if not stronger than Darui's two
Ginkaku also doesn't appear to be slow. After sucking up Atsui, Samui cries out for him. But shortly after she cries out, Ginkaku is already behind her and covered her mouth.
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Samui has a “?!” there. So seems she’s surprised. Evidently Ginkaku moved fast for her.
Is he fast as Gai or Raikage? Of course I am not saying that. But still pretty quick on his feet. So I wager the brothers aren’t slow. But there’s middle ground between being a speedster and being slow.
So here, Ginkaku’s speed seems decent. Purely opinion, but If I had to give him a stat in speed, I’d give him a 3.5 at lowest.
Samui + Atsui both charge Kinkaku, but his reaction time and strength seem to be top notch, being he manages to knock them both away in one hit each, while taking no hits himself.
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Samui was trained by B, so I doubt she’s slow. But neither of the siblings managed to touch Kinkaku from the looks of it. He knocked them away before they got that far, despite it being 2:1.
When the coup d'etat happened, the Kage were left at death’s door. Least the Hokage was. They may have killed the Raikage since they knew who the 3rd was. He, apparently, was appointed before they were killed.
Now again, the weapons seal or don’t seal. There’s no in-between. And since they were trying to take over, or working for someone who wanted to take over, I don’t think they went there to screw around.
I see many bring up that “If they weren't Edo, Darui would have killed them.”
But, I can say, since they all seem to be aware of the jutsu, they know they’re immortal, and will just regenerate. So, strategy probably doesn't seem like high priority. It’s like Kakuzu and Hidan who used dangerous combo attacks, knowing the other would just tank it, due to their nigh invulnerability.
And, as we see, the immortality can be used to their advantage. I hear the argument, alot, that “if they weren't zombies, Darui beat them fast.” But again, I could say,f they were alive, they’d have been more cautious.
Like Darui’s Laser Circus. When it was coming toward Ginkaku, he still held on to Samui, but was shocked to find they were guided, which hit him.
Had he been a living being, he may have let Samui go. But as a zombie he held on, hoping the attack would hit both of them, and get Samui.
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Sadly, with it being guided, it went around her, and got him alone. Probably not a chance he’d have taken alive. As an Edo, he'd regenerate. Samui would not. I am not saying that indefinitely. As we have no proof how the brothers fought when alive. But given that, there’s no telling how Darui would have done then either.
So bringing in, "If they were alive" doesn't prove anything. Because the simple fact is, they weren't, and they were aware of it.
We then see Kinkaku charge at Darui while he’s stunned from the effects of the rope. Kinkaku could have easily severed Darui’s head, and that’d have been the end of him.
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But playing around seemed to be what they cared more about doing. They didn't seem too rushed to kill right away, because not like that had anywhere to be or anything to get done.
Kyuubi Shrouds
With the shrouds. I believe they can activate them any time they wish. Kakuzu says he saw Kinkaku use it when Ginkaku went down. But nothing said “he can only do that when Ginkaku dies.”
That’s just when it’s prone to manifesting itself through his rage. Like when Naruto gets pissed, the chakra seeps through. But just because it manifests in his rage doesn't mean he can’t tap into it, if he sees fit.
Kumo sources say the brothers emerged from Kurama’s mouth looking like mini-kyuubi.
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Both were alive, so nobody was raging then, and I am sure they had to be able to deactivate those forms. And again, databook states they used Kyuubi chakra during the coup d'etat. If they both used it, that shows neither of them has to be dead before the other can access it.
Intelligence
I then hear many saying the brothers aren't too smart. But where has Kinkaku been shown to be stupid, exactly? From their showing, I won’t say they’re geniuses of the Shikaku caliber.
But I don’t think they’re Beavis + Butthead, or just dumb muscle like Yammy of Bleach either.
At least Kiinkaku has been shown as being perceptive / observant / clever. Whatever you wanna call it.
After being revived, he is the one that notices Darui’s tattoo, and connects him to the 3rd, already being aware he’s, at least, a decent fighter.
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After seeing Atsui’s word being hot, he promptly knows how to get him to say it.
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When Darui lopped off his arm, he thought to kick it into him to nail him with the rope
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When Darui lectures the 2, Kinkaku is able to figure out, quickly, that Darui said his word and could be sealed.
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When Darui escapes sealing, Kinkaku is shocked, but is able to deduce why things played out as they did.
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All of these aren’t that of a genius. But it certainly doesn’t paint Kinkaku as an idiot. His intelligence seems average at the least, and average is not bad. It’s normal, hence why it's called average. That’s still not stupid, like some seem to think.
Now Ginkaku’s intelligence, and perception can be debated. Seems like Kinkaku will be the brother to notice something 1st, and figure stuff out, which he then relays to Ginkaku.
So I won’t say Ginka is an idiot. He did know to cover Samui's mouth to get her sealed. But Kin seems to be the smarter, and more composed, of the two. So Kin seems fine in the intelligence department. Ginkaku, is questionable.
Kinkakyu
Now with KinkaKyuubi, many downplay him being “He lost to Ino, Shika, and Chouji.” But really, as TenTen said, Kinka was tearing through that division like crazy.
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Kinkaku was the only summon there that had to have a special, hax, unbeatable sage tool there to seal him. They couldn’t beat him down, and seal him through normal means. Raikage stating he was unstoppable, and the pot was the only other way.
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And he only lost due to the combined efforts of many Shinobi, plus a good bit of luck. But people will simplify the events, and call Kinkaku fodder because “He lost to Ino, who even Sakura beat.” A few things about that.
1. Ino was only 12. I am sure she’s improved after 4 years.
2. Ino used up too much chakra before she used that jutsu, as noted by Asuma + Kakashi. So the jutsu was less effective.
3. Sakura didn’t break out instantly. Ino had her beat even despite the former issues of chakra loss, and inexperience. However, Naruto calling out to Sakura allowed her spirit to awaken and fight back. And even then a fight for dominance followed before Ino had to release.
With Kinkaku all it took was a few seconds for her to say she had him, and “yes” when he was called. The jutsu itself is very hax. A Kekkei Genkai of the Yamanaka clan. So one losing to that doesn’t = fodder to me. People just say such because it was Ino.
Then there’s Kinkaku’s will or brute strength, He, from what I recall, is the only one that’s been able to outright break shadow-binding.
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Though it’s been a while since I read part one, maybe I missed something.
But far as I know Kakuzu got out, but that was because his arm was free and cut it off at the source.
Had he not detached his arm, he’d have not been able to do that it seems, and apparently given how hard they were avoiding getting caught in it, they were taking it’s power seriously. Unlike Kin who got caught, and broke it in a few seconds.
So, while the brothers didn't get a drawn out battle against other god Shinobi, I think they showed to be a threat, and I don’t think they’re as weak and stupid as some fans claim.
And really Darui’s word changing was a pure fluke and luck on his part. So, he didn't beat the brothers on skill alone. Because his word change, naturally the brothers didn't think he was still around. So, a lucky break is what gave him an opening against Ginkaku.
As we saw earlier, Ginkaku seems to be stronger than Darui. But he attacked an unarmed Ginkaku with his weapon. So of course that's advantageous.
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The protagonists had luck / convenience + Teamwork. Everyone had to work together to take down just one of them. That was the point of Darui’s copper > Gold speech.
Gold beats copper by itself. Just as the brothers were stronger than any one person there, most likely. But if you have enough copper coins, you can match gold in value, and pass it.
As the databook said, Kin and Gin’s power, a piece, can match 1000, and that they’re great war potential.
In any case
1. Ino couldn't have nailed Kin if Shikamaru didn’t bind him.
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2. Shikamaru couldn’t bind if Chouji hadn't hit him, distracting.
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3. Chouji couldn't have gotten as close without the Kunai distraction, which took a good number of division members.
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5. And all of these things would have still meant nothing without that pot.
6. And the pot wouldn't have made it in time if not for Mabui’s convenient jutsu.
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7. And even the pot wouldn't have worked if not for Ino's jutsu. because Kinkaku knew to not answer.
And, Kinkaku had Darui again when he came down on him in Kyuubi mode. Darui had lost sight of him.
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Kitsuchi just had some grand timing, which was Darui’s 2nd lucky save in that battle,
So Kinkaku alone required all this work and all these ninja working together. Everyone who was there was needed, and without even just one of the things they used, they'd not have won.
Then we see the reaction to Kinkaku’s capture.
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That’s a good number of ninja, and everyone felt the need to rejoice at bringing down Kinkaku.
The brothers didn't get beat because they were weak. And if they hadn't gone there messing around, as it seemed, they probably could have killed everyone in the 1st division. Kinkaku alone took out a good chunk of it. The databook states that Kinkaku and Ginkaku are each worth 1,000 ninja a piece with their Kyuubi ability-and also they they had their own natural abilities that were of high value. Had they been bloodlusted from the start, Darui and a good bit more, if not all of the 1st division probably would have been killed.
Darui had
info on the brother's tools-and he still got caught
2 lucky saves
And an army's worth of ninja for back-up with very hax abilities and the brothers' own Sage tool used against them.
Not exactly fair to act like Darui beat them down easily, with his own skill.
If KinGin are fodder, than damn near NONE of the Edo were powerful. Didn't Chouji just sit on Kakuzu? and Kankurou easily captured Deidara, who apparently couldn't escape from that puppet. Haku and Zabuza didn't stick around long either it seemed. And lets not forget Gaara's father, who was gone in no more than 3 chapters, despite being a Kazekage.
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