[VS] Killer Bee vs Sasori

[Lariatoo]

Sasori only wins in v2 or BM with a sizable distance.
In base he gets stomped and in BM he gets poisoned.
Finally a thread that people recognize Sasori's skill!

 

[RustledJimmies]

How does Bee counter poison?

In gas form? Bijuu Hachimaki can disperse it. If you mean the poison in the weapons, then all he needs to do is dodge them, or he can simply blow Sasori up in BM, even if Sasori does get a good hit on him, the attack itself won't harm the Hachibi well enough, nor will the poison kill him before he nukes Sasori.

 

[Rιver]

I talked to AC about this yesterday briefly and came to the conclusion that B dies in a stalemate unless his V2 form can use Bijuu Dama. But I doubt it, so this means Sasori gets nuked and B gets poisoned in his big form.

 

[TurrinB]

Depends if Hachibi can be poisoned or not. If Hachibi can be, than Sasori is simply a terrible match up for B, as B's greatest power makes him a huge target.

 

[Worm]

In gas form? Bijuu Hachimaki can disperse it. If you mean the poison in the weapons, then all he needs to do is dodge them, or he can simply blow Sasori up in BM, even if Sasori does get a good hit on him, the attack itself won't harm the Hachibi well enough, nor will the poison kill him before he nukes Sasori.

Why exactly won't he get hit by poison? To start off with, he has no idea Sasori uses poison and has no reason to actually be careful enough to dodge every single attack to the point of not getting a scratch. Neither has he shown to be very cautious in most of his battles, considering he went along with Suigetsu's plan for them to attack him at once, i.e. he went into CQC with them and got electrocuted because of it. Thirdly, Sasori is a sociopath and has manipulative tendencies much like Deidara does, meaning he could use that carelessness to his advantage.

As for the Hachibi not being harmed fast enough, how? As far as I know, the Hachibi has only shown massive resistance to blunt, impactive or explosive attacks. Never has it handled piercing or slicing attacks well, given how easily it got pierced by the horn of another Bijuu and how easily Sasuke cut off his tail. Given that most of Sasori's offensive Iron Sand attacks do piercing damage rather than blunt damage, coupled with the Iron Sand's massive weight, the tip of the triangle's edge should tear apart Hachibi quite easily. It would be fatal damage, pretty much. If not, the massive wound created would just give more room for the massive amounts of poison from the triangle to flow into Hachibi.

Nuking Sasori? Not particulary sure how you're supposed to charge up a nuke that requires focus when Sasori can rock you with a spear that is twice as fast as the charge up time and given that he knows what a TBB is...

 

[DrProof]

How about that Kakuzu tho.

 

[Lord Tywin]

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Wait. Bee can continuously increase his speed through imputing chakra into Shunshin and slowly get faster and faster then he previously was simply because he has massive amounts of chakra? Since when has Shunshin worked like that again? Going by this, Sasori can move ridiculously fast because he has a lot of chakra containers and can constantly increase his Shunshin speed because of it. Going by this, we can say that Bee is well above Minato or Itachi - despite Itachi showing better bursts of speed, even against Bee - in terms of Shunshin speed because he can constantly increase his Shunshin through pumping chakra into it and because he has Bijuu level chakra that surpasses Itachi and Minato's chakra reserves quite a bit.

And going by this, Bee should be as fast as v2 Ay or hell, Kisame or rather Zetsu should have easily dodged or blitzed Ay or Bee because the former has Bijuu level chakra while the latter is a product of Gedo Mazou and is based off on Hashirama's cells, implying they have ridiculously massive amounts of chakra. Going by how you worded your statement, you are basically telling me that you can get faster Shunshin by continously pumping chakra into your Shunshin, implying Bijuu level characters would blitz the shit out of anything atm and you are telling me this would work in the same way as increasing the speed of the Iron Sand through stronger repellant force despite that I don't ever remember seeing or reading about Shunshin working in that way. Especially since it would then make no sense that Bee didn't blitz Minato - without FTG - or Itachi.

I don't see how he can match Sasori's raised speed of the Iron Sand and even outrun it in this scenario. Dodging? Have we ever seen Bee's dodging skills at Sakura's level, who was also backed up by an experienced puppet master helping her control her movements to dodge Sasori's attacks, especially when said puppet master stated she was familiar with Sasori's puppetry and has experience towering over both of theirs. Sakura managed to successfully dodge Iron Sand World that stretched out over the majority of the cave and left little to no room to move in, considered it branched off into multiple both big and small spikes.

Managing to dodge Sasuke's linear attack by moving outside his predicition capabilities isn't really impressive regardless of the fact that Sasuke is fast. Why? Because it was a linear attack and Bee had the matching speed. Nevermind the fact that Sakura and Chiyo dodged all of Sasori's needless so skillfully (well, Chiyo did, but that shows her ability to help Sakura's movements and familiarity with Sasori's puppetry) or that Sakura had trained in the department of evasiveness for quite some time, given that it was considered to be her specialty along with being a medic-nin and having a strong punch.

Lastly, Sasori can react in the same way as he did against Sakura and Chiyo. Just increase his field of effect and make evading impossible without getting a single scratch. Especially since we've seen Sasori stretch out or generate more Iron Sand than his puppet could actually carry inside of it, given it's height and width, implying Sasori can increase his amounts of Iron Sand quite a bit. Especially since the Iron Sand lake created after Iron Sand World fell down dwarfed Sasori who was standing on a stone sticking out of it.

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Among many other various cases of Iron Sand sudden expansion. Also, even with Sakura's and Chiyo's level of evasiveness, they were forced to put up shields in order to block Sasori's faster Iron Sand attacks simply because they were unable to dodge them. To finish off, Sasori is a sociopath who's shown some manipulative habits. A sociopath like him could trick/manipulate Bee into attacking recklessly.

What exactley is Shunshin?

A movement technique with extreme speed like a gust of wind!!

Appearing along with the wind, disappearing like the wind: the ninja's instantaneous movement technique. This super fast movement is almost impossible to grasp with the naked eye. If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported... In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.

We've already seen Iron Sand's speed, which is nowhere near Bee's. Sasori has to use a ridiculous amount of chakra to get to base Bee on his own. This is without Bee using shunshin. It's an assumption on your part to think Sasori can increase IS's speed to a degree that he can get Bee with it.

Regarding not using shunshin to get people faster than Bee himself. You need great reaction time to go beyond what Bee has already shown. Both Ay's and Minato's reaction time>>Bee's. Only thing keeping Bee back.

Is Bee's fights throughout the series with opponents far stronger than Chyio and Sakura not enough evidence for you? Does Sasori's technique speed and reaction time comes anywhere close to the likes of MS Sasuke, Kisame, and Obito's paths'? Sasori used IS bullets, the IS needles, both of them were countered by Chiyo. Those attacks had nothing to do with them being not linear, as they were just coming straight towards Chiyo and Sakura. Again Chiyo countered them. Next Sasori made his cube and pyramid IS. not linear, except the very last atack, as it was Sasori's last option[

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][

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] which it can easily be dodged by Bee.

That scan is what I dislike about Sasori fanboys. Literally nowhere does it say he can make more Iron sand. Not even the databook,

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the puppet stores a large amount of IS in its body. Now why it created a small lake?
1. First it wasn't even a lake, neither was the hole that big.
2. This is literally the

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amount Sasori had in his possesion.

The density of the figures were already great. After Sakura destroyed Third kazekage, Sasori lost the control over IS, so

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, which was all over the battlefield, crumbled and covered the ground.

This implies Bee's usual lariat actually works in a fully impactive way that would affect his whole body and make it scatter to pieces just like Sakura's direct punch to the center of his puppet body. As far as I know, lariat has only been able to rip apart the throat area atm. Doesn't actually affect the rest of your body through impact and Sasori's own body is hard enough to not get completey smashed by Sakura's punch. At best, he'll just send Sasori flying back like he did to Sasuke, assuming he killed him. Especially since he'd be assuming Sasori is a normal puppet master, thus assuming close combat and physical condition would be his weak link.

Now what happens when Sasori's body is scattered or flung back? Depends. Does he want to just make the pieces fly in the middle of the air and have it noisily click themselves back into place or does he want to just stealthily switch puppet bodies entirely, removing the need to fly it back into place? Third Kazekage puppet is a sufficient new body. Not that Sasori actually needs to put his body up again before attacking, considering the heart could control all the scattered puppet body pieces and fly them back into place through chakra strings. He can just fling one of the scattered blades into Bee's back after he turns around and done. Bee is poisoned, has a large blade piercing him and since he doesn't know about the heart, he can't react by smashing the heart.

That still works in Bee's favor. Lariat rips Sasori's puppet body apart, unlike Sakura's punch which only made the pieces pop off. This will prevent Sasori from piecing himself back together.[

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]
Do you see Sasori's body being ripped, or do you see only the pieces being popped out?

Now regarding Sasori not needing his entire body to attack. He's still a puppet. His body parts make noises when they move. Sakura felt them moving behind her. No reason to think Bee can't.

Addressed the dodging thing above. As for the blitzing thing, countered by Sasori playing dead or flying up on Iron Sand.

Addressed

He can punch through what with Raiton if it redirects his Raiton to another direction, leaving you with no Raiton to actually punch shit through with? Letting poison run through your body is not even a comparable scenario. Can you redirect poison from your body like steel does to electricity? Does steel have organs and functions like a living being to actually be affected by the process of letting lightning or poison stream through your ''body''? Redirecting Raiton is simple streaming through the Iron Sand into another direction.

Sasori needs a cut for his poison to work. Won't harm anyone without a cut. And you say he can redirect lightning? Since when does a Doton technique just doesn't fall apart when hit by Raiton? Or since when Raiton doesn't push through anything Doton related? The name is literally on it. Iron Sand. SAND.

And I don't really see how did you come to the conclusion that Iron Sand crumbles apart by being touched by Raiton. Gaara's normal sand never crumbled apart while being touched by Raiton. Did you perhaps mean that the Iron Sand would lose it's ability to stay magnetized, i.e. hardened through magnetism? Yes. But that simply returns the Iron Sand back into it's original state when Sasori took it out of the Kazekage, floating sand that works like Gaara's. It won't fall to the floor nor will Sasori stop being unable to actually use it as we've never seen him state that he can make the Iron Sand float through magnetism. Not particulary sure how you're supposed to make sand float with magnetism to begin with. He makes it float through normal chakra just like Gaara does with his sand. And if he wants it back into it's hardened state, he can keep on pumping magnetism into it.

I should reword the "crumbling apart" part. What I meant is pushing through it. Chidori pushed through Gaara's sand. Managed to pass through. Third Raikage was chopping rocks like butter.
And with Magnetism gone, Bee is free to use his swords. Which makes it a stomp match up.

Wait. How did we go from destroying Hiruko to leaving Sasori without Iron Sand by doing that? @Bold. Not really. At best he could assume it's another part of the puppet, not an actual organ that keeps Sasori alive. Neither Chiyo nor Sakura knew what that was until Sasori actually switched his puppet body and they saw that same piece of his old body was absent from his old body and was present in his new body, leading to a simple conclusion: it's what keeps him functioning. Otherwise, Sakura could have ended the fight by just rocking his heart in the first place when she pulled him.

:lol my bad for a moment I thought Third Kazekage's name was Hiruko.
Before Sakura punched him they never saw what the core was about. But look at the core

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. Literally vains and shit run through it. Gives it away pretty fast.

He channeled Raiton into a sword. Different from shaping. As far as I know, Bee hasn't shown any Raiton other than his usual sword or palm streaming Raiton. Haven't particulary seen him shape and coat Raiton all over his whole arms.

He doesn't need it to use raiton on his whole arm. Only his hand would do it.

Anyways, lets backtrack a bit. How exactly is this supposed to cut through the Iron Sand? Actually, let me be more specific. What type of Iron Sand? Defensive or offensive? Defensive? Sure. I'll give you that. He can cut through stationary, defensive Iron Sand, assuming Sasori doesn't suddenly transform it into spikes in order to stab Bee. Offensive? Not a chance. The layer around his arms or swords - referring to Raiton - is not only thin as all hell, but Bee cannot suddenly offer the opposing force hurled at him that comes with offensive Iron Sand spears, triangles, etc. Why? The weight of the Iron Sand would literally rip apart his whole arm - thus also poisoning him - before the Raiton could do it's job and mow through it. It doesn't have any protective properties nor does it erase Iron Sand's weight. As far as we've seen, the action of actually cutting through fat steel via Raiton isn't instantenous. It never has been. Especially since Sasuke could provide a sufficient support to Suigetsu after Bee took his time trying to cut through Suigetsu's sword.

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So I'm not particulary sure what scenario you have in mind, but plowing through Iron Sand - spears, triangles, anything with an edge, etc. - with a simple layer of lightning that has no defensive properties and going against something that can easily tear through bedrock and has a spike that is clearly meant for piercing which is coupled with Iron Sand's weight will leave you without your whole hand as well as Sasori's poison. As for stationary defensive Iron Sand, ok. Ignoring that Sasori can spike it up or that it can redirect Raiton, it can plow through that.

I actually concur on the raiton argument.
But we're literally typing like IS can keep up with Bee. Bee would only need to dodge it and aim for the Third Kazekage. He has shown the speed and power to destroy the puppet. Once it's destroyed it'll be home run for Bee.

 

[Kagustuchi]

Lol Deidara and Kisame are way cooler Sasori/Kakuzu

 

[DrProof]

Lol Deidara and Kisame are way cooler Sasori/Kakuzu

They're all equally cool.

 

[Kagustuchi]

They're all equally cool.

Sasori and Kakuzu were ok

 

[Lariatoo]

Sasori and Kakuzu were ok

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Bruh. Sasori was fabulous.

 

[Mad Titan Thanos]

I dont see how Bee does not stomp

 

[Worm]

Lol Deidara and Kisame are way cooler Sasori/Kakuzu

>Lord Pissame
>cool

I'll give you that Lord Pissame is literally the best, but he's anything but cool and powerful. Lord Pissame loses to everyone, even Billy's penis. Which is why Billy and FT like him so much. Easy target.

What exactley is Shunshin?

A movement technique with extreme speed like a gust of wind!!

Appearing along with the wind, disappearing like the wind: the ninja's instantaneous movement technique. This super fast movement is almost impossible to grasp with the naked eye. If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported... In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.

''In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.''

All I see here is that the amount of chakra used up differs depending on how much ground does the target cover, not that he or she can increase speed of the Shunshin through more chakra. Because to begin with, the whole process of Shunshin is undergone by filling your body with chakra and straining it's limits, but the limits still exist. I really don't see a specific part that says putting more chakra into Shunshin would increase it, all I see is that more chakra would be used up if the user covers more ground with it and that Shunshin is done by putting your chakra into your body.

If it specifically shown and stated that Shunshin speed increases by increasing chakra, I would agree. But we have never seen such a scenario. Certainly not in Sasuke vs Itachi - as Sasuke had trouble keeping up with Itachi's movement speed, certainly not in Deidara vs Sasuke - where Deidara has clearly comparable amount of chakra and even then he had some trouble keeping up with Sasuke's Shunshin.

Reaction is what got him out alive so that specifically tells me if we go by how you're describing Shunshin and saying what the databook is implying, Deidara should have easily have been keeping up with Sasuke on ground, given that he has the appropriate reaction time to Sasuke's attacks as shown when he reacted to Sasuke's first attack and was able to react to Tobi's warning after Sasuke attacked him from behind as well as managed to throw a bomb between them in order to intercept Sasuke's attack. That's clear reaction. If Shunshin worked like you are telling me, Deidara could have just kept up with Sasuke's attacks via his own Shunshin and would easily get away instead of throwing a bomb to separate advancement.

Back to the point; how does Shunshin with more chakra -> regular Shunshin again? Deidara has more chakra than Sasuke, but is slower than Sasuke. Sasuke and Deidara have a shitload of more stamina than Itachi, but are slower than Itachi at the time of Itachi Pursuit Arc.

Comparison between Deidara's and Sasuke's Stamina, i.e. Chakra level at the time of Itachi Pursuit arc.

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First picture is Deidara's databook stats. Second is Hebi Sasuke's. Third one is Sasuke's stats picture overlayed over Deidara's and me pulling a red line over the place where Sasuke's stamina stat overlaps with Deidara's to show Deidara's edge in the stamina, i.e. chakra level department - hence the red arrow pointing to the edge. And lastly, here is Itachi's stamina stat, showing how much he falls behind both Hebi Sasuke and Deidara.

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Before you say stamina doesn't refer to chakra levels as well; It does. The fact that Shinobi get exhausted by using up chakra points to stamina problems, i.e. exhaustion. Power/Strenght is physical strenght, unrelated to chakra levels directly. Ninjutsu could refer to chakra levels, but the point remains the same as Deidara's Ninjutsu stat is higher than Sasuke's as well. And lastly, Shunshin doesn't fall into the Taijutsu department if you plan to tell me that. Because otherwise, Deidara would have been destroyed by Team Gai who all have a higher Taijutsu stat than he does.

In other words, if we go by what you are saying the databook proves, we run into problems in which the manga contradicts what you are saying is the databook description and inner working of the Shunshin ability. Why? Deidara has the needed reaction as proven every time Sasuke attacked Deidara, but he is unable to fully keep on escaping him on foot and had to separate himself with a clay bomb from Sasuke, create a dragon, fly out of Sasuke's range and then take away Sasuke's mobility through clay mines.

Sasuke's speed clearly posed a ridiculous amount of problem to a guy who should be faster than Sasuke if we go by the statement that Shunshin apparently is faster if you put more chakra into it. This same case goes for Itachi. He was capable of keeping up, if not outspeeding Hebi Sasuke, who was capable of outspeeding Deidara. In other words, Deidara has a higher chakra level than both and can react to them, but yet he is unable to outspeed them both.

I have more to say about this discussion, but I'll leave the rest of my viewpoint below in the rest of my post.

We've already seen Iron Sand's speed, which is nowhere near Bee's. Sasori has to use a ridiculous amount of chakra to get to base Bee on his own. This is without Bee using shunshin. It's an assumption on your part to think Sasori can increase IS's speed to a degree that he can get Bee with it.

We have seen Iron Sand's speed? We've seen an inconsistent speed. The pellets are slower than the bigger Iron Sand spears, but the even bigger Iron Sand block and triangle are much slower than both. That's inconsistent. Why? Because speed of Iron Sand depends on the repellant property of the strenght of Sasori's magnetism. You get a stronger magnetic force, you get a stronger repellant property and thus, you get a faster Iron Sand attack. This is proven by the fact that Chiyo could move a puppet fast enough to grab Sakura and slide her out of the way along with the puppet against the small Iron Sand Pellets.

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But was completely uncapable of moving Sakura or the puppet away against the Iron Sand spears and had to put up a shield instead [

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][

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]. Nevermind the fact that the puppet was extremely close to Sakura in Iron Sand Spears case - right next to her - [

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] while it was away from Sakura in the pellets' case. [

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][

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] It was floating somewhere well above her, meaning Chiyo had to fly it back down, grab Sakura and then slide it out of the way. More so, the pellets have a larger number than the spears and are a lot smaller than the spears, making them harder to evade as well as letting them cover more ground than the spears. I've already stated more reasons as to why Iron Sand spears surpass Iron Sand pellets in term of speed in one of my previous replies to you, but it comes down to the fact that Sasori pumped the attack up with more magnetism as he was launching them into Sakura's and Chiyo's direction [

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], thus getting a stronger repellant force than in the pellets' case.

Point? Larger Iron Sand attacks can be a lot faster than smaller ones as long as Sasori pumps an appropriate powerful magnetic force into his attacks in order to raise the repallant force.

Regarding not using shunshin to get people faster than Bee himself. You need great reaction time to go beyond what Bee has already shown. Both Ay's and Minato's reaction time>>Bee's. Only thing keeping Bee back.

Addressed why reaction time isn't what holds Shunshin's capabilities down in Deidara's case, otherwise Hebi Sasuke and Itachi would have to run around, being unable to tag Deidara in CQC because he'd be able to outrun them. Not the case. But I'll bring in more cases. Zetsu's chakra level surpasses or matches Ay's and Bee's. Yet, despite having the required reaction - as he wasn't shocked and he expected that to happen -, he failed to activate his Jutsu simply because Zetsu didn't have the speed required to activate it before getting his head chopped off. He wasn't fast enough to activate it and he wasn't fast enough to move out of the way. Actually, he was unable to even move his legs fast enough before he got rocked to begin with.

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He says how he even expected to be decapitated like that, proving that he knew from the start he would be unable to move out of their way. More proof? Kisame. Has Bijuu levels chakra and even keeps on absorbing more chakra in his fights, yet he never manages to keep up with most of his opponents; Shunshin-wise. Gai? Didn't manage to completely outspeed him despite having Bijuu level Chakra. Bee? Had to be stationary in all of Bee's attacks and never managed to move out of the way despite having comparable level of Chakra. Naruto? Got blitzed pretty easily.

Itachi vs Bee is another case of this. Itachi was able to fully keep up with Bee, if not even outspeed him at some points, but we both know how Bee has massive amounts of chakra and should have been able to keep up since Naruto was able to keep up perfectly fine. Nevermind the fact that if Bee could actually move faster than any of these characters, he should be quite capable and used at speeds of that caliber. Yet he wasn't? Since he gets ''blitzed'' every now and then by some of his enemies.

Another case? Nagato before his legs got blown up and his Pain state. He is an Uzumaki with a Rinnegan and has massive chakra reserves. Yet he got blitzed by so many enemies like SM Naruto, Jiraiya, Hanzo's paper bombs - tagged him because he was too slow, not because he couldn't react [

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] -, etc. That's kinda strange for a guy with his chakra reserves, isn't it?

So yeah, I don't see your point about Shunshin being able to increase through more amounts of chakra. Not when I've never really seen this without usage of some chakra armors like Ay or Naruto or whatever atm which are different from Shunshin. It seems kinda contradictory if you think that what you're telling me is true.

Is Bee's fights throughout the series with opponents far stronger than Chyio and Sakura not enough evidence for you?

Okay. Don't do the ''being more powerful in fire power means you are better in deparments like evasiveness and speed'' thing. Bee's fought a lot stronger opponents, but that proves nothing. It's like giving a nuke to some inexperienced teenager and then comparing him to a veteran soldier who has only a hunter knife. The former has a lot bigger and stronger firepower and can be considered a more destructive threat in that way, but that doesn't mean said inexperienced teenager suddenly has evasive skills or experience at fighting certain opponents that are better than the veteran soldier's.

No, in fact, the veteran soldier could embarrass him in those departments. Point being; Bee's fought enemies with a lot bigger firepower that could slaughter Sakura and Chiyo, but that doesn't necessarily mean said enemies will have more experience or better evasive skills than Chiyo or Sakura.

Does Sasori's technique speed and reaction time comes anywhere close to the likes of MS Sasuke, Kisame, and Obito's paths'?

Speed of his Iron Sand can make up for the speed of his technique. Not that this couldn't be potentially removed by just moving his heart into Kazekage's puppet body. No that the characters you implied are that special in these departments except MS Sasuke.

Sasori used IS bullets, the IS needles, both of them were countered by Chiyo. Those attacks had nothing to do with them being not linear, as they were just coming straight towards Chiyo and Sakura. Again Chiyo countered them. Next Sasori made his cube and pyramid IS. not linear, except the very last atack, as it was Sasori's last option[

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][

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] which it can easily be dodged by Bee.

They were countered, alright. How many times? Once. Sasori never used them again because lol that was the only fight he was ever in while actually having puppets and his Kazekage got destroyed through trickery. As I've said, Sasori just increased his field of effect instead of just increasing the speed of his attacks. Both are plausible options and both would have worked, since the former surely did. Just because he picked one option doesn't mean that the other option doesn't exist. Lastly, Chiyo countered the impactive force. I don't remember her ever countering the speed of Iron Sand spears, considering she was unable to make Sakura dodge them and had to put up shields.

That scan is what I dislike about Sasori fanboys. Literally nowhere does it say he can make more Iron sand. Not even the databook,

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the puppet stores a large amount of IS in its body. Now why it created a small lake?
1. First it wasn't even a lake, neither was the hole that big.
2. This is literally the

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amount Sasori had in his possesion.

The density of the figures were already great. After Sakura destroyed Third kazekage, Sasori lost the control over IS, so

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, which was all over the battlefield, crumbled and covered the ground.

''That'' scan? Ok. It's not that specific scan that proves the point. The scan you tried linking already proves the point. Do you not see the comparison of height and width of the Third Kazekage puppet next to the Iron Sand Triangle, Iron Sand Block and Iron Sand wings? The block or the triangle alone surpasses the puppets height and width. It would be completely illogical to say a single amount of Iron Sand present in at least one of those constructions could fit in the Kazekage puppet, let alone all three. Conclusion? He managed to expand his previous amount of Iron Sand into bigger quantities.

Proof? This is the amount of Iron Sand that comes out of the puppet. [

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][

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][

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] Even remotely comparable to the amount of Iron Sand used for Sasori's triangle, block and wings? No. Further proof? It manages to suddenly become smaller in quantity. [

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] Small pellets, not that big of a number = smaller than the amount that came out of Kazekage's mouths and a lot smaller than Sasori's other constructions, let alone Iron Sand World that managed to cover the majority of the cave they were fighting in when the pellets could cover only

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much ground. Contradictory that apparently the same amount of Iron Sand Pellets could suddenly cover Iron Sand World amount of ground.

The thing about the lake? There's a huge boulder in the middle of it. Sasori is standing on the huge boulder and is considerably smaller than the ''lake'' below him, regardless if it was a lake or not even though he was somewhat comparable and in some cases bigger than his previous Iron Sand constructions. Point? Sasori kept on expanding the amount of Iron Sand to his will. Last proof? Here:

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Chiyo states that the Kazekage created something that is based off on Shukaku's host and can change shape into anything. That something isn't magnetism. He was born with the ability to use magnetism, he didn't create it. What he created was Iron Sand. Implying Kazekage can create Iron Sand through his own abilities, not that he took it from somewhere. Especially since Chiyo calls Iron Sand a ''jutsu''. [

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] So it's a creation like many other jutsu. More so, it's based off of Shukaku's abilities. Shukaku creates sand from his own body. Your second databook point strenghtens my point, since it implies Iron Sand was created from the Kazekage's body. Human Puppets have the same abilities as it's material in life. Which explains why Sasori was able to create more Iron Sand than the puppet could possibly store in itself. Especially since the puppet was also riddled with other steel weaponry that takes up place.

That still works in Bee's favor. Lariat rips Sasori's puppet body apart, unlike Sakura's punch which only made the pieces pop off. This will prevent Sasori from piecing himself back together.[

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]
Do you see Sasori's body being ripped, or do you see only the pieces being popped out?

Now regarding Sasori not needing his entire body to attack. He's still a puppet. His body parts make noises when they move. Sakura felt them moving behind her. No reason to think Bee can't.

What I see is neither. Why? Lariant doesn't have the force that can rip through Sasori's puppet body. Not when all Sakura's direct punch managed to do was only create a crack in it's torso. If Sakura can't smash and rip Sasori's body apart, I don't see how a Lariat should be capable of doing so. Not when Sakura could easily smash a whole massive boulder and Hiruko. Like I said; the result I see is Bee sending Sasori flying back, assuming Sasori was a normal human, thus assuming his Lariat ripped his throat apart and that Sasori is dead. Would be confirmed by the fact that Sasori would act like he was dead.

As for the noise part, the only time Sakura heard Sasori make noises with puppets was when he pieced himself directly in the air and didn't bother to hide himself or anything or was fighting with other puppets. No one ever realized Hiruko is a puppet from just it's movements. Chiyo didn't hear Sasori moving onto another puppet body and approaching her from behind. Sakura was faced towards him and managed to see him getting up, thus running in between Chiyo and Sasori. And I said he would be moving steel blades from the puppet body, not piecing stuff together. Moving steel blades across the air and stabbing Bee's back by controlling it with a thread would make no sound what so ever.

Sasori needs a cut for his poison to work. Won't harm anyone without a cut. And you say he can redirect lightning? Since when does a Doton technique just doesn't fall apart when hit by Raiton? Or since when Raiton doesn't push through anything Doton related? The name is literally on it. Iron Sand. SAND.

That's implying Sasori's chances of getting a cut on Bee are more unlikely than likely. Bee has no knowledge of Sasori's methods of battle and he doesn't know that Sasori uses poison. Bee hasn't shown to be cautious and Sasori has shown to be manipulative, getting reckless people to attack him head on in order to benefit himself much like Deidara did. It's a sociopathic thing. Lastly, Bee went along with Suigetsu's plan of attacking him all at once and engaged with them in CQC, resulting in him getting electrocuted. That more so tells me that Bee is reckless rather than cautious. A scratch is a simple thing. In most of battles, both fighters usually get a simple scratch if not anything else which is a result of carelessness. That carelessness is life-threatening here.

As for the crumbling thing, Iron Sand =/= direct Doton. Ok, it's a KKG based off on Doton, but how would it crumble when touched by Raiton? Do tell. Gaara's sand was only pierced. It didn't crumble. It still had a firm shape when Sasuke pierced it with Chidori. It's more of a Doton than Iron Sand would be to begin with, yet what you're saying didn't happen. No, in fact, have we ever seen that happen to any other Doton technique aside from Deidara's bombs getting diffused? I don't remember a single scenario of the whole Doton construction falling apart when being touched by Raiton.

I should reword the "crumbling apart" part. What I meant is pushing through it. Chidori pushed through Gaara's sand. Managed to pass through. Third Raikage was chopping rocks like butter.
And with Magnetism gone, Bee is free to use his swords. Which makes it a stomp match up.

Ok. That makes my counter to ''crumbling apart'' above irrelevant, I guess. However, no. We were just in this argument. It wouldn't push through Iron Sand simply like that. Unless we're talking a simple Iron Sand wall, nothing else. I already made a point as to why trying to push through an Iron Sand spear would result in a ripped off arm scenario or why Iron Sand would redirect the Raiton, leaving no Raiton to push through with or why Sasori could spike up the other areas of the wall towards Bee's direction if he attempts to cut through a single area of the Iron Sand wall which isn't an instantenous action as I've said. Also, Iron Sand is iron, not rocks so I don't particulary see the relevance of the Third Raikage point.

And magnetism doesn't disappear. Don't misunderstand what I said. Demagnetising =/= magnetism disappearing. Sasori can immediately release new waves of magnetism and it will never be gone unless he directly crushes the Kazekage's puppet whole body, or rather the left part of it's chest where the magnetic forces are released from.

:lol my bad for a moment I thought Third Kazekage's name was Hiruko.
Before Sakura punched him they never saw what the core was about. But look at the core

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. Literally vains and shit run through it. Gives it away pretty fast.

Uh, I don't get it? Sakura and Chiyo never saw what the heart is before Sakura punched him, but the veins give it away pretty fast? How come Sakura and Chiyo didn't notice it was a heart by seeing the veins? Are they retarded or something then? Anyways, the point is that the veins don't give it out if Sakura and Chiyo didn't know what it was until Sasori switched bodies.

He doesn't need it to use raiton on his whole arm. Only his hand would do it.

That kind of doesn't counter what I said then. If he can only coat his palm, then his arm ends up getting scratched or stabbed by the spikes created from the Iron Sand object he tries to attack, assuming it is a defensive one.

I actually concur on the raiton argument.
But we're literally typing like IS can keep up with Bee. Bee would only need to dodge it and aim for the Third Kazekage. He has shown the speed and power to destroy the puppet. Once it's destroyed it'll be home run for Bee.

Okay, if you concur on the Raiton argument, I'm assuming my reply to the above doesn't mean much anymore now that you agreed? Okay, but anyways for the rest of this quote, we are typing like Sasori's Iron Sand can keep up with Bee because I am actually stating that it pretty much could if Sasori has the massive chakra reserves to keep on raising the strenght of his magnetic force, which he does. As for destroying the Third Kazekage, we've had the discussion as to why Bee wouldn't actually target the puppet instead of Sasori before it's too late.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Killer Bee speed blitzes. Sorry, Bee easily handled Sasuke's speed and intercepted A. Iron sand isn't touching him, and it even piercing him is dubious.

 

[Worm]

Love this type of posts. ^

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

^I love posts like this.

 

[Worm]

Touche, M'lady.

 

[Lord Tywin]

''In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.''

All I see here is that the amount of chakra used up differs depending on how much ground does the target cover, not that he or she can increase speed of the Shunshin through more chakra. Because to begin with, the whole process of Shunshin is undergone by filling your body with chakra and straining it's limits, but the limits still exist. I really don't see a specific part that says putting more chakra into Shunshin would increase it, all I see is that more chakra would be used up if the user covers more ground with it and that Shunshin is done by putting your chakra into your body.

If it specifically shown and stated that Shunshin speed increases by increasing chakra, I would agree. But we have never seen such a scenario. Certainly not in Sasuke vs Itachi - as Sasuke had trouble keeping up with Itachi's movement speed, certainly not in Deidara vs Sasuke - where Deidara has clearly comparable amount of chakra and even then he had some trouble keeping up with Sasuke's Shunshin.

Reaction is what got him out alive so that specifically tells me if we go by how you're describing Shunshin and saying what the databook is implying, Deidara should have easily have been keeping up with Sasuke on ground, given that he has the appropriate reaction time to Sasuke's attacks as shown when he reacted to Sasuke's first attack and was able to react to Tobi's warning after Sasuke attacked him from behind as well as managed to throw a bomb between them in order to intercept Sasuke's attack. That's clear reaction. If Shunshin worked like you are telling me, Deidara could have just kept up with Sasuke's attacks via his own Shunshin and would easily get away instead of throwing a bomb to separate advancement.

Back to the point; how does Shunshin with more chakra -> regular Shunshin again? Deidara has more chakra than Sasuke, but is slower than Sasuke. Sasuke and Deidara have a shitload of more stamina than Itachi, but are slower than Itachi at the time of Itachi Pursuit Arc.

Comparison between Deidara's and Sasuke's Stamina, i.e. Chakra level at the time of Itachi Pursuit arc.

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First picture is Deidara's databook stats. Second is Hebi Sasuke's. Third one is Sasuke's stats picture overlayed over Deidara's and me pulling a red line over the place where Sasuke's stamina stat overlaps with Deidara's to show Deidara's edge in the stamina, i.e. chakra level department - hence the red arrow pointing to the edge. And lastly, here is Itachi's stamina stat, showing how much he falls behind both Hebi Sasuke and Deidara.

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Before you say stamina doesn't refer to chakra levels as well; It does. The fact that Shinobi get exhausted by using up chakra points to stamina problems, i.e. exhaustion. Power/Strenght is physical strenght, unrelated to chakra levels directly. Ninjutsu could refer to chakra levels, but the point remains the same as Deidara's Ninjutsu stat is higher than Sasuke's as well. And lastly, Shunshin doesn't fall into the Taijutsu department if you plan to tell me that. Because otherwise, Deidara would have been destroyed by Team Gai who all have a higher Taijutsu stat than he does.

In other words, if we go by what you are saying the databook proves, we run into problems in which the manga contradicts what you are saying is the databook description and inner working of the Shunshin ability. Why? Deidara has the needed reaction as proven every time Sasuke attacked Deidara, but he is unable to fully keep on escaping him on foot and had to separate himself with a clay bomb from Sasuke, create a dragon, fly out of Sasuke's range and then take away Sasuke's mobility through clay mines.

Sasuke's speed clearly posed a ridiculous amount of problem to a guy who should be faster than Sasuke if we go by the statement that Shunshin apparently is faster if you put more chakra into it. This same case goes for Itachi. He was capable of keeping up, if not outspeeding Hebi Sasuke, who was capable of outspeeding Deidara. In other words, Deidara has a higher chakra level than both and can react to them, but yet he is unable to outspeed them both.

I have more to say about this discussion, but I'll leave the rest of my viewpoint below in the rest of my post.



We have seen Iron Sand's speed? We've seen an inconsistent speed. The pellets are slower than the bigger Iron Sand spears, but the even bigger Iron Sand block and triangle are much slower than both. That's inconsistent. Why? Because speed of Iron Sand depends on the repellant property of the strenght of Sasori's magnetism. You get a stronger magnetic force, you get a stronger repellant property and thus, you get a faster Iron Sand attack. This is proven by the fact that Chiyo could move a puppet fast enough to grab Sakura and slide her out of the way along with the puppet against the small Iron Sand Pellets.

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But was completely uncapable of moving Sakura or the puppet away against the Iron Sand spears and had to put up a shield instead [

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][

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]. Nevermind the fact that the puppet was extremely close to Sakura in Iron Sand Spears case - right next to her - [

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] while it was away from Sakura in the pellets' case. [

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][

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] It was floating somewhere well above her, meaning Chiyo had to fly it back down, grab Sakura and then slide it out of the way. More so, the pellets have a larger number than the spears and are a lot smaller than the spears, making them harder to evade as well as letting them cover more ground than the spears. I've already stated more reasons as to why Iron Sand spears surpass Iron Sand pellets in term of speed in one of my previous replies to you, but it comes down to the fact that Sasori pumped the attack up with more magnetism as he was launching them into Sakura's and Chiyo's direction [

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], thus getting a stronger repellant force than in the pellets' case.

Point? Larger Iron Sand attacks can be a lot faster than smaller ones as long as Sasori pumps an appropriate powerful magnetic force into his attacks in order to raise the repallant force.



Addressed why reaction time isn't what holds Shunshin's capabilities down in Deidara's case, otherwise Hebi Sasuke and Itachi would have to run around, being unable to tag Deidara in CQC because he'd be able to outrun them. Not the case. But I'll bring in more cases. Zetsu's chakra level surpasses or matches Ay's and Bee's. Yet, despite having the required reaction - as he wasn't shocked and he expected that to happen -, he failed to activate his Jutsu simply because Zetsu didn't have the speed required to activate it before getting his head chopped off. He wasn't fast enough to activate it and he wasn't fast enough to move out of the way. Actually, he was unable to even move his legs fast enough before he got rocked to begin with.

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He says how he even expected to be decapitated like that, proving that he knew from the start he would be unable to move out of their way. More proof? Kisame. Has Bijuu levels chakra and even keeps on absorbing more chakra in his fights, yet he never manages to keep up with most of his opponents; Shunshin-wise. Gai? Didn't manage to completely outspeed him despite having Bijuu level Chakra. Bee? Had to be stationary in all of Bee's attacks and never managed to move out of the way despite having comparable level of Chakra. Naruto? Got blitzed pretty easily.

Itachi vs Bee is another case of this. Itachi was able to fully keep up with Bee, if not even outspeed him at some points, but we both know how Bee has massive amounts of chakra and should have been able to keep up since Naruto was able to keep up perfectly fine. Nevermind the fact that if Bee could actually move faster than any of these characters, he should be quite capable and used at speeds of that caliber. Yet he wasn't? Since he gets ''blitzed'' every now and then by some of his enemies.

Another case? Nagato before his legs got blown up and his Pain state. He is an Uzumaki with a Rinnegan and has massive chakra reserves. Yet he got blitzed by so many enemies like SM Naruto, Jiraiya, Hanzo's paper bombs - tagged him because he was too slow, not because he couldn't react [

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] -, etc. That's kinda strange for a guy with his chakra reserves, isn't it?

So yeah, I don't see your point about Shunshin being able to increase through more amounts of chakra. Not when I've never really seen this without usage of some chakra armors like Ay or Naruto or whatever atm which are different from Shunshin. It seems kinda contradictory if you think that what you're telling me is true.



Okay. Don't do the ''being more powerful in fire power means you are better in deparments like evasiveness and speed'' thing. Bee's fought a lot stronger opponents, but that proves nothing. It's like giving a nuke to some inexperienced teenager and then comparing him to a veteran soldier who has only a hunter knife. The former has a lot bigger and stronger firepower and can be considered a more destructive threat in that way, but that doesn't mean said inexperienced teenager suddenly has evasive skills or experience at fighting certain opponents that are better than the veteran soldier's.

No, in fact, the veteran soldier could embarrass him in those departments. Point being; Bee's fought enemies with a lot bigger firepower that could slaughter Sakura and Chiyo, but that doesn't necessarily mean said enemies will have more experience or better evasive skills than Chiyo or Sakura.



Speed of his Iron Sand can make up for the speed of his technique. Not that this couldn't be potentially removed by just moving his heart into Kazekage's puppet body. No that the characters you implied are that special in these departments except MS Sasuke.



They were countered, alright. How many times? Once. Sasori never used them again because lol that was the only fight he was ever in while actually having puppets and his Kazekage got destroyed through trickery. As I've said, Sasori just increased his field of effect instead of just increasing the speed of his attacks. Both are plausible options and both would have worked, since the former surely did. Just because he picked one option doesn't mean that the other option doesn't exist. Lastly, Chiyo countered the impactive force. I don't remember her ever countering the speed of Iron Sand spears, considering she was unable to make Sakura dodge them and had to put up shields.



''That'' scan? Ok. It's not that specific scan that proves the point. The scan you tried linking already proves the point. Do you not see the comparison of height and width of the Third Kazekage puppet next to the Iron Sand Triangle, Iron Sand Block and Iron Sand wings? The block or the triangle alone surpasses the puppets height and width. It would be completely illogical to say a single amount of Iron Sand present in at least one of those constructions could fit in the Kazekage puppet, let alone all three. Conclusion? He managed to expand his previous amount of Iron Sand into bigger quantities.

Proof? This is the amount of Iron Sand that comes out of the puppet. [

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][

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][

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] Even remotely comparable to the amount of Iron Sand used for Sasori's triangle, block and wings? No. Further proof? It manages to suddenly become smaller in quantity. [

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] Small pellets, not that big of a number = smaller than the amount that came out of Kazekage's mouths and a lot smaller than Sasori's other constructions, let alone Iron Sand World that managed to cover the majority of the cave they were fighting in when the pellets could cover only

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much ground. Contradictory that apparently the same amount of Iron Sand Pellets could suddenly cover Iron Sand World amount of ground.

The thing about the lake? There's a huge boulder in the middle of it. Sasori is standing on the huge boulder and is considerably smaller than the ''lake'' below him, regardless if it was a lake or not even though he was somewhat comparable and in some cases bigger than his previous Iron Sand constructions. Point? Sasori kept on expanding the amount of Iron Sand to his will. Last proof? Here:

Spoiler

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Chiyo states that the Kazekage created something that is based off on Shukaku's host and can change shape into anything. That something isn't magnetism. He was born with the ability to use magnetism, he didn't create it. What he created was Iron Sand. Implying Kazekage can create Iron Sand through his own abilities, not that he took it from somewhere. Especially since Chiyo calls Iron Sand a ''jutsu''. [

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] So it's a creation like many other jutsu. More so, it's based off of Shukaku's abilities. Shukaku creates sand from his own body. Your second databook point strenghtens my point, since it implies Iron Sand was created from the Kazekage's body. Human Puppets have the same abilities as it's material in life. Which explains why Sasori was able to create more Iron Sand than the puppet could possibly store in itself. Especially since the puppet was also riddled with other steel weaponry that takes up place.



What I see is neither. Why? Lariant doesn't have the force that can rip through Sasori's puppet body. Not when all Sakura's direct punch managed to do was only create a crack in it's torso. If Sakura can't smash and rip Sasori's body apart, I don't see how a Lariat should be capable of doing so. Not when Sakura could easily smash a whole massive boulder and Hiruko. Like I said; the result I see is Bee sending Sasori flying back, assuming Sasori was a normal human, thus assuming his Lariat ripped his throat apart and that Sasori is dead. Would be confirmed by the fact that Sasori would act like he was dead.

As for the noise part, the only time Sakura heard Sasori make noises with puppets was when he pieced himself directly in the air and didn't bother to hide himself or anything or was fighting with other puppets. No one ever realized Hiruko is a puppet from just it's movements. Chiyo didn't hear Sasori moving onto another puppet body and approaching her from behind. Sakura was faced towards him and managed to see him getting up, thus running in between Chiyo and Sasori. And I said he would be moving steel blades from the puppet body, not piecing stuff together. Moving steel blades across the air and stabbing Bee's back by controlling it with a thread would make no sound what so ever.



That's implying Sasori's chances of getting a cut on Bee are more unlikely than likely. Bee has no knowledge of Sasori's methods of battle and he doesn't know that Sasori uses poison. Bee hasn't shown to be cautious and Sasori has shown to be manipulative, getting reckless people to attack him head on in order to benefit himself much like Deidara did. It's a sociopathic thing. Lastly, Bee went along with Suigetsu's plan of attacking him all at once and engaged with them in CQC, resulting in him getting electrocuted. That more so tells me that Bee is reckless rather than cautious. A scratch is a simple thing. In most of battles, both fighters usually get a simple scratch if not anything else which is a result of carelessness. That carelessness is life-threatening here.

As for the crumbling thing, Iron Sand =/= direct Doton. Ok, it's a KKG based off on Doton, but how would it crumble when touched by Raiton? Do tell. Gaara's sand was only pierced. It didn't crumble. It still had a firm shape when Sasuke pierced it with Chidori. It's more of a Doton than Iron Sand would be to begin with, yet what you're saying didn't happen. No, in fact, have we ever seen that happen to any other Doton technique aside from Deidara's bombs getting diffused? I don't remember a single scenario of the whole Doton construction falling apart when being touched by Raiton.



Ok. That makes my counter to ''crumbling apart'' above irrelevant, I guess. However, no. We were just in this argument. It wouldn't push through Iron Sand simply like that. Unless we're talking a simple Iron Sand wall, nothing else. I already made a point as to why trying to push through an Iron Sand spear would result in a ripped off arm scenario or why Iron Sand would redirect the Raiton, leaving no Raiton to push through with or why Sasori could spike up the other areas of the wall towards Bee's direction if he attempts to cut through a single area of the Iron Sand wall which isn't an instantenous action as I've said. Also, Iron Sand is iron, not rocks so I don't particulary see the relevance of the Third Raikage point.

And magnetism doesn't disappear. Don't misunderstand what I said. Demagnetising =/= magnetism disappearing. Sasori can immediately release new waves of magnetism and it will never be gone unless he directly crushes the Kazekage's puppet whole body, or rather the left part of it's chest where the magnetic forces are released from.



Uh, I don't get it? Sakura and Chiyo never saw what the heart is before Sakura punched him, but the veins give it away pretty fast? How come Sakura and Chiyo didn't notice it was a heart by seeing the veins? Are they retarded or something then? Anyways, the point is that the veins don't give it out if Sakura and Chiyo didn't know what it was until Sasori switched bodies.



That kind of doesn't counter what I said then. If he can only coat his palm, then his arm ends up getting scratched or stabbed by the spikes created from the Iron Sand object he tries to attack, assuming it is a defensive one.



Okay, if you concur on the Raiton argument, I'm assuming my reply to the above doesn't mean much anymore now that you agreed? Okay, but anyways for the rest of this quote, we are typing like Sasori's Iron Sand can keep up with Bee because I am actually stating that it pretty much could if Sasori has the massive chakra reserves to keep on raising the strenght of his magnetic force, which he does. As for destroying the Third Kazekage, we've had the discussion as to why Bee wouldn't actually target the puppet instead of Sasori before it's too late.[/QUOTE]
Honestly speaking that was a good post. I need to update my Sasori knowledge. But Imma give you this one.

 

[Rιver]

Shunshin is not just about chakra, but also about chakra control. You can achieve great Shunshin speed even without high amount of chakra. As stated early in Part I, chakra beasts like Naruto have large chakrapool but very poor chakra control hence why he can't use his power to the fullest. While Sakura, who doesn't have that remarkable chakrapool still can use her chakra to create massive destruction via fists. Itachi had not so great amounts of chakra but he managed to be very fast even in the later part of series. So Deidara not being able to keep up with Sasuke was not due to his lack of chakra but most likely his inferior level of chakra control.

 

[New Dawn]

Why the **** are people still arguing over this?

KB lariats through everything sasori throws at him. He breaks hiruko and lariots sasori's head off before he summons 3rd kazekage. KB then throws lighting blades at the heart and its over. KB low diffs.

KB can actually turn into 8 tails and TBB sasori instantly. Neg diff.