[VS] Killer Bee vs EMS Sasuke

[KidGamer65]

Arrow was shot long before TBB, while the TBB still had tension action in it.

1. Tension action isn't the correct term.

2. No, it was fired.

3. They still hit at the same time, so that only makes your case worse.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

1. Tension action isn't the correct term.

2. No, it was fired.

3. They still hit at the same time, so that only makes your case worse.

1. What term should I use? Since the lines around a TBB shows that it being prepared.

2. The comic action/expression (dont know the right term) shows that the ball is still in focus.

3. How do you know they hit at the same time?

 

[KidGamer65]

1. What term should I use? Since the lines around a TBB shows that it being prepared.

And how do those lines indicate it being prepared? Because when a Bijuu Dama is being prepared, it has energy around it. That ball was complete.

2. The comic action/expression (dont know the right term) shows that the ball is still in focus.

No, it doesn't mean that.

3. How do you know they hit at the same time?

One minute they are both together, and the next minute there is nothing but a giant explosion, one wasn't shown hitting before the other, there was just one big explosion. Pretty clear that they hit at the same time.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

And how do those lines indicate it being prepared? Because when a Bijuu Dama is being prepared, it has energy around it. That ball was complete.


No, it doesn't mean that.



One minute they are both together, and the next minute there is nothing but a giant explosion, one wasn't shown hitting before the other, there was just one big explosion. Pretty clear that they hit at the same time.

1. The expression of the lines are going inward. When a TBB is being fire the expression lines would show us that it is going outward[

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2. What does it mean then

3. Thats not a far conclusion since both carry different priorities. An explosion will overlap penetrating force, so you see no penetrating force expression. Not to mention there is no expression of TBB ever being a fast release technique.

 

[KidGamer65]

1
3. Thats not a far conclusion since both carry different priorities. An explosion will overlap penetrating force, so you see no penetrating force expression. Not to mention there is no expression of TBB ever being a fast release technique.

When Bijuu Dama from Kurama cross the ocean in about a few seconds. When characters as fast as Hashirama need to redirect them instead of evading them, then you don't need anyone to tell you its fast, that shows that its fast.

And how does that mean that they didn't hit at the same time?

But yeah, I can agree that it hadn't been fired yet.

 

[Dannie]

If only you didn't use examples that consisted of weaker Bijuu Dama than what Hachibi can use. If he is near the epicenter of the attack, he dies. That simple. He can't escape the Bijuu Dama, so he dies. It doesn't need to hit "point blank." Only needs to be close to the epicenter. The only reason Taka didn't die is because they had Suigetsu to soak up all the damage for them.

Bijuu Dama moves as fast as a Susanoo arrow, and B can use 4 of them. Sasuke evading on foot is laughable.

Completely ignoring why pain survived? Okay

 

[Apêx1]

Ok.

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Already said Hachibi won't notice the Amateratsu being spawned since Sasuke is far above, let alone reacting without him seeing Sasuke's eye bleeding. Tentacles covering him won't happen.

B can fire 4 Bijuu Dama like a machine gun, so aim won't be a problem as he'll be able to fire at multiple directions in quick succession, combine that with the fact the the explosion will still catch and kill the cloak, along with the fact its too slow to evade anyway, then you have on your hands, a dead Sasuke.

Bee won't be able to fire multiple Biju Dama before Sasuke can cast a single Amateratsu which ends, as it is half the Juubi's head's size. No matter where a tentacle is cut, Amateratsu would logically spread given his hands and tentacles are affected by Amateratsu which was rapid spawned. And the Hawk can dodge.

2. The hawk hasnt been portrayed as fast at all. Danzo's Fuuton have never been noted or shown to be fast in any way, shape or form, and he didn't pass by Hashirama's black rods. Every panel with a white background is what is going in present time, and every panel with a black background is a flash back. Sasuke is flying on his hawk and he remembers his conversation with Hashirama. What happened is, Sasuke was going to get on his hawk, and Hashirama told him to wait, hence the exclamation mark on his head. Doesn't tell me it'll dodge a projectile that moves as fast as a Susanoo arrow, something one of the fastest characters at the time (Kakashi) couldn't dodge.

The Hawk is fast as I already showed here [

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]. You cannot be slow and leave a mark behind you in such a way, as that would indicate water vapour which often occurs as a contrail from an airplanes exhaust. It requires an immense speed and it disperses rapidly as it isn't an artificially generated 'cloud' but rather a naturally occurring one. Given the fact that the hawk was able to cross what seems to be 5 e large hills in the water vapours background, I'd say it is more than likely extremely fast, as the water vapour itself hasn't even dispersed. TBB not hitting is a joke, not to mention that undermining the Futon completely even though Futon's have shown to be extremely fast throughout the manga is rather biased towards your argument. I would only agree has the Hawk been stationary. But given it's constant moving around, I legitamately don't see how Bee hits it, especially if it's flying right above his head, in which case rapid-firing will be useless as it wont be a viable option when he moves from 170 degrees above bee to 190 degrees, hence Bee needs to move his entire body.

After? Never said he did it after. Sasuke used Amaterasu, and before the flame ignited him, B covered himself with his tentacle, thus, with intel and knowing that a bleeding eye signifies Amaterasu, he will be able to act once again. Just how he did against Edo Itachi and just how he did against Sasuke the first time. Spawned continuously is irrelevant when he'll only be hitting tentacles, not the Hachibi itself.

Oh, my bad. Still, Sasuke is on a hawk, it is unlikely he will see his eye bleed or notice it to the extent he did last time when Sasuke's hawk is constantly moving.

If there is a cloud of ink covering the Hachibi, the no, it won't matter where he goes as LoS will still be blocked.

1. If a cloud of ink is present, Sasuke knows where Bee is and starts firing off Enton arrows whereas Bee doesn't know where Sasuke is.
2. The scan Benjamin King brought forth was inside water, nothing suggests he can actually use his ink as a smoke bomb or mist simply because it expanded in the water itself by overflowing it, not by floating as a gas (Lol), since ink is denser than water.

Addressed above.

Not really, you still need to address the difference in Amateratsu's size since it is up to half the Juubi from ground level to his maxima, thus even if he cuts his tentacle, it would still be lit on fire as it is within the AOE of the massive Amateratsu.

 

[KidGamer65]

Completely ignoring why pain survived? Okay

1. Believing Pain was at the epicenter and tanked the full brunt of that Bijuu Dama when Rasengan wrecked him is ridiculous. Not when Asura Path, mechanical armor, got wrecked by Senjutsu Rasengan. They were right in front of the

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when that Bijuu Dama was being charged, yet when we see the explosion, the Hokage Faces aren't there. So no, he didn't take the Full Brunt of anything.

2. Irrelevant as Hachibi's Bijuu Dama>>>>>KN6's Bijuu Dama.

 

[KidGamer65]

Already said Hachibi won't notice the Amateratsu being spawned since Sasuke is far above, let alone reacting without him seeing Sasuke's eye bleeding. Tentacles covering him won't happen.

Ok.

Bee won't be able to fire multiple Biju Dama before Sasuke can cast a single Amateratsu which ends, as it is half the Juubi's head's size. No matter where a tentacle is cut, Amateratsu would logically spread given his hands and tentacles are affected by Amateratsu which was rapid spawned. And the Hawk can dodge.

Amaterasu would stop him from charging it, not firing it, and Continuous Bijuu Dama

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It doesn't end him, he just cuts a tentacle and then leaves his clone behind, thus he won't be on fire anymore. Amaterasu doesn't burn fast enough or hot enough to completely disable B before this happens. Then he just comes out.

Or rather, he uses Bijuu Hachimaki, starts spinning around and blows Sasuke out of the air, then he cuts his tentacle as he'd be on fire from the Amaterasu, and blows Sasuke apart with Bijuu Dama. The Amaterasu isn't going to stop him from using the jutsu, he'll just have to substitute out of it afterwards, and no, it won't make the flame bigger. A large gust of flame isn't going to do anything to a speck of fire (Which is what the flame will be in comparison) besides blow it out, but Amaterasu can't be blown out.

And Amaterasu ignites the target, so at most it can be as large as the target itself. Shown every single time Sasuke/Itachi uses Amaterasu.

-Vs. Danzo.
-Vs. Hebi Sasuke's fireball
-Vs. Kaguya (When he used it on her and his hand)

Or B can start in V2, tank the flame and then enter Bijuu Mode with his Bijuu Dama ready and blow Sasuke apart.

So its not going to be half the size of the Juubi's head. And I don't recall, but you did prove that Enton was the size of the Juubi's head, but what was the evidence for Sasuke being able to replicate that with his Amaterasu?

The Hawk is fast as I already showed here [

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]. You cannot be slow and leave a mark behind you in such a way, as that would indicate water vapour which often occurs as a contrail from an airplanes exhaust. It requires an immense speed and it disperses rapidly as it isn't an artificially generated 'cloud' but rather a naturally occurring one. Given the fact that the hawk was able to cross what seems to be 5 e large hills in the water vapours background, I'd say it is more than likely extremely fast, as the water vapour itself hasn't even dispersed. TBB not hitting is a joke, not to mention that undermining the Futon completely even though Futon's have shown to be extremely fast throughout the manga is rather biased towards your argument. I would only agree has the Hawk been stationary. But given it's constant moving around, I legitamately don't see how Bee hits it, especially if it's flying right above his head, in which case rapid-firing will be useless as it wont be a viable option when he moves from 170 degrees above bee to 190 degrees, hence Bee needs to move his entire body.

Marks mean nothing. I can show you plenty of trail markings that characters have left behind as evidence that they are fast, but that isn't anywhere near solid evidence for him being able to evade things that top tier speedsters couldn't outright evade. (Hashirama had to deflect Bijuu Dama, not evade it) I can show you Sasori's Iron Sand breaking the Sound Barrier, though that's not impressive as Chiyo reacted to and blocked those attacks, and not even top tier speedsters move faster than Sound. Something that'd be considered fast in our world, 99% of the time, isn't considered fast in NV.

Lol, what Fuuton has ever shown to be extremely fast? The only, and I repeat, the only, Fuuton that has shown to be extremely fast is Rasen Shuriken, and Pain evaded that and the 3rd Raikage dodged at point blank. FRS>>>>Every other fuuton when it comes to speed.

Sasuke still has to actually get to 170 degrees in the first place, which is time B can be using to fire.




[

quote]If there is a cloud of ink covering the Hachibi, the no, it won't matter where he goes as LoS will still be blocked.

1. If a cloud of ink is present, Sasuke knows where Bee is and starts firing off Enton arrows whereas Bee doesn't know where Sasuke is.
2. The scan Benjamin King brought forth was inside water, nothing suggests he can actually use his ink as a smoke bomb or mist simply because it expanded in the water itself by overflowing it, not by floating as a gas (Lol), since ink is denser than water.

Point.

 

[Apêx1]

Ok.




Amaterasu would stop him from charging it, not firing it, and Continuous Bijuu Dama

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But as I said, Bee will either be incapable of leaving Amateratsu's AOE, or simply miss because of the hawk's movements.

It doesn't end him, he just cuts a tentacle and then leaves his clone behind, thus he won't be on fire anymore. Amaterasu doesn't burn fast enough or hot enough to completely disable B before this happens. Then he just comes out.

Or rather, he uses Bijuu Hachimaki, starts spinning around and blows Sasuke out of the air, then he cuts his tentacle as he'd be on fire from the Amaterasu, and blows Sasuke apart with Bijuu Dama. The Amaterasu isn't going to stop him from using the jutsu, he'll just have to substitute out of it afterwards, and no, it won't make the flame bigger. A large gust of flame isn't going to do anything to a speck of fire (Which is what the flame will be in comparison) besides blow it out, but Amaterasu can't be blown out.

He's in the AOE of Amateratsu when he tries to cut off his tentacle, so even if he does, said tentacle gets lit on fire from the inner part that was bisected as the Hachibi's hand along with the Amateratsu AOE would take effect instantly. There's still a decent amount of time where Bee is impulsively screaming which should be factored in as well, thus a greater spread of the massive Amateratsu.

Bijuu Hachimiki has already been addressed, it will simply make the Amateratsu much larger and hotter. So Sasuke gets blasted out of the sky but fact remains that Bee is under an Amateratsu far larger than anything we've ever seen. Cutting his tentacle, once again, won't help, as he will seal the exit for Bee shut the second he cuts it. Bee initiating BM while in the tentacle just means he's carrying on the Amateratsu from one part of his body to his new BM. Not to mention, he's still in the AOE.

And Amaterasu ignites the target, so at most it can be as large as the target itself. Shown every single time Sasuke/Itachi uses Amaterasu.

-Vs. Danzo.
-Vs. Hebi Sasuke's fireball
-Vs. Kaguya (When he used it on her and his hand)

Or B can start in V2, tank the flame and then enter Bijuu Mode with his Bijuu Dama ready and blow Sasuke apart.

That's for convenience purposes, nothing suggests that Amateratsu adjusts its size to the target, it is simply based on the amount of chakra exerted. Since this isn't IC Sasuke, he uses the same level of Amateratsu he did against the Juubi.

So its not going to be half the size of the Juubi's head. And I don't recall, but you did prove that Enton was the size of the Juubi's head, but what was the evidence for Sasuke being able to replicate that with his Amaterasu?

It is, and it's because they had an equivalent chakra ratio, and since the Amateratsu ate through the FRS, the only thing that affected the Amateratsu's output is the Futon, which posses an equivalent amount of chakra as the Amateratsu. Thus 1/2+1/2=1, hence 1/2 of the Juubi head from 1 Amateratsu.

Marks mean nothing. I can show you plenty of trail markings that characters have left behind as evidence that they are fast, but that isn't anywhere near solid evidence for him being able to evade things that top tier speedsters couldn't outright evade. (Hashirama had to deflect Bijuu Dama, not evade it) I can show you Sasori's Iron Sand breaking the Sound Barrier, though that's not impressive as Chiyo reacted to and blocked those attacks, and not even top tier speedsters move faster than Sound. Something that'd be considered fast in our world, 99% of the time, isn't considered fast in NV.

Those are trail markings in close proximity. Show me an actual trail marking that covers 5 large hills and then we're talking. Speed of sound was simply emphasised for hype purposes, Hawk showed pure trail marks from vast distances away, which other characters have never shown. The feat remains a feat unless you can show me trail markings of a character from a vast distance comparable to this one, then I'll concede it having an amazing speed. It would be given the fact it can cross multiple large hills in a very brief time frame as the vapour didn't disperse by then. TBB's being not so large implies that the bird while already moving, and unconventionally at that, should easily evade the TBB my Bee's misaim or the Bird's reflexes. Hashirama was ground level, he was always highly prone to TBB's explosion, whereas an airborne hawk isn't.

Lol, what Fuuton has ever shown to be extremely fast? The only, and I repeat, the only, Fuuton that has shown to be extremely fast is Rasen Shuriken, and Pain evaded that and the 3rd Raikage dodged at point blank. FRS>>>>Every other fuuton when it comes to speed.

Sasuke still has to actually get to 170 degrees in the first place, which is time B can be using to fire.

Wind Cast Net was rather fast, Sasuke failed to dodge Vacuum sphere, Atsugai, and a few others I can't recall right now. Futon's destructive power comes from its speed alone, and sometimes its mass. Either way, Futon's which can crush are Futon's which are fast. Oh, and featless Naraka has dodged FRS as well. Oh, and I'm going to have to agree with EJBlack on this one too. Almost every TBB that has been shown to get prep'd has had those lines directed toward the TBB [

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][

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][

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][

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][

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] whereas once it's fired, the marks change to the one's which indicate speed [

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][

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][

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]. And Susano arrow doesn't explode, never has never will, so I don't see the point of that argument. TBB was the only thing that exploded and the arrow likely reached far before the TBB as the arrow has shown to be one of the fastest attacks in the entire manga, where even characters with pre-cog like Danzo get impaled several times with them. Yasaka Magatama, which was on a similar speed with the TBB, has shown to be rather slow [

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].

Sasuke can still use Amateratsu spammed-spawning while mounting the Hawk and flying, nor Bee doesn't start in BM to allow him to fire his TBB first. Bee is now completely enveloped with Amateratsu the size of half the Juubi, and cutting off his tentacle isn't helping because he is still in the AOE of the Amateratsu once he cuts the tentacle, so the inner part of the bisected tentacle gets lit on fire immediately.
Point.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dannie]

1. Believing Pain was at the epicenter and tanked the full brunt of that Bijuu Dama when Rasengan wrecked him is ridiculous. Not when Asura Path, mechanical armor, got wrecked by Senjutsu Rasengan. They were right in front of the

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when that Bijuu Dama was being charged, yet when we see the explosion, the Hokage Faces aren't there. So no, he didn't take the Full Brunt of anything.

2. Irrelevant as Hachibi's Bijuu Dama>>>>>KN6's Bijuu Dama.

1. Comparing a fodder Rasengan to a Bijuudama is ridiculous.

2. Trying to sugarcoat the fact that Pain took most of the blast and survived is ridiculous

3. It doesn't matter if his Bijuudama is stronger. A Bijuudama is a Bijuudama and if B fires 4 Bijuudama continuously then it will lack the potential of a charged Bijuudama and will be on the same tier as one of KN6's charged Bijuudama.

 

[King Of Pop]

damn, this thread tho. apex and kid gamer lol brutal battle.

 

[maniaoqan]

Sasuke wins this.

 

[Blunt]

Apex and KG going in lmao, this is good.

 

[ARGUS]

he has to burst out of the tentacle, then enter bm before he does that and how the hell is he achieving it all before amaterasu lights him up? sasuke knows of his trick like i said so this gives him the advantage of preparation, once he sees a tentacle cut(he would be much aware), he quickly lights it up, bee wont have the luxury of bursting out and entering bm(even though he enters it pretty quickly am aware of that) and using a jutsu all before sasukes attack connect, that simple. ink is easily dodged

Lol Wrong,
why does Bee have to revert back to base and then enter BM, just by removing one tentacle? wtf! especially when he

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not to mention

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, and now that he has intel on the jutsu, means that he

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before the flames do any damage whatsoever

and Lol what are you on about?
Bee doesnt need to escape through just one tentacle this time, so i dont see what sort of logic you are bringing
he just needs to remove the affected area, and he can do this rather quickly as shown above
and Lol ink is not meant to attack sasuke, its only there to momentarily block his LoS meaning amaterasu wont be happening, thus allowing bee to kill him by TBB

another option for sasuke is to use his hawk for an aerial view when the hachibi is in flames, with that he can then start spreading the flames all over the hachibis hands or his tentacles untouched to lessen bees option, from his aerial view also it would be quick to spot bees trick and then sasuke quickly attacks it.

Nope, now that bee has intel on the jutsu, he removes the affected tentacle immediately and then blows sasuke away by a Bijuu Wave, a TBB or a whirlwind, sasuke is not engulfing him with flames this time,

and What good is the hawk doing exactly? sasuke would be left wide open, for bee to blow him away with whirlwind
aerial view or not, the only jutsu of sasuke that could do anything is amaterasu,
however bee coutners it as said above, and if sasuke is within close proximity, he can just release the ink to block his LoS, followed by a TBB to kill him

and sasukes hawk is not evading a Bijuu wave or a TBB, either

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except the arrow would be fired as soon as he sights the tentacle. anyways even if arrows are a bad idea, like ive stated he can use magatama, guiding it towards the tentacle which should engulf it in flames, imo bee wouldnt be able to fire off a tbb.

Except the arrow takes just as long to prep and fire as a TBB,
seeing how

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just mere

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the only difference is that bee tanks the arrow, and sasuke dies by the TBB,

magatamas and any other enton variants are non factor since they would simply allow bee to fire off his TBB and would eradicate the jutsu along with sasuke through the process,
bee can also blow the jutsu away by whirlwind, and therefore be left open to fire TBB ​

 

[KidGamer65]

1. Comparing a fodder Rasengan to a Bijuudama is ridiculous.

That's why your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

-Rasengan one shotted Deva Path, yet you think he tanked Bijuu Dama. Laughable.

-Superior Asura Path, when it comes to durability, got raped by Senjutsu Rasengan, yet you think Deva tanked Bijuu Dama. Laughable.

2. Trying to sugarcoat the fact that Pain took most of the blast and survived is ridiculous

I didn't sugar coat. I posted facts and you have given me no real reply.

3. It doesn't matter if his Bijuudama is stronger. A Bijuudama is a Bijuudama and if B fires 4 Bijuudama continuously then it will lack the potential of a charged Bijuudama and will be on the same tier as one of KN6's charged Bijuudama.

Is this all you can do? Throw these shit generalizations? In what universe does Deva tanking a weaker Bijuu Dama (Which never happened) mean that Sasuke's Susanoo can tank a stronger one? Each Bijuu Dama is the standard size, which vaporizes Mountains. 4 Mountain Vaporizers>KN6's Bijuu Dama. 1 Mountain Vaporizes>KN6's Bijuu Dama.

But as I said, Bee will either be incapable of leaving Amateratsu's AOE, or simply miss because of the hawk's movements.

Oh, I didn't understand that this is what you meant.

He's in the AOE of Amateratsu when he tries to cut off his tentacle, so even if he does, said tentacle gets lit on fire from the inner part that was bisected as the Hachibi's hand along with the Amateratsu AOE would take effect instantly. There's still a decent amount of time where Bee is impulsively screaming which should be factored in as well, thus a greater spread of the massive Amateratsu.

Ok, point.

That's for convenience purposes, nothing suggests that Amateratsu adjusts its size to the target, it is simply based on the amount of chakra exerted. Since this isn't IC Sasuke, he uses the same level of Amateratsu he did against the Juubi.

That's how the jutsu has to work as it ignites the target. It doesn't fire flame at it, it just causes the target to spontaneously ignite. That's why Amaterasu's size always varies, the user doesn't put in a certain amount of chakra to make more flame appear on them. Itachi continuously spawned Amaterasu on Sasuke's fireball, yet the size never increased. Further backing my point. If you ignite a small match and a large match, the larger match will always have a bigger flame. If a human completely caught on fire and a giant tree completely caught on fire, the tree would have the bigger flame.

Its not just convenience, its how the jutsu works, so that renders the above points about B being in its AoE moot.

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It is, and it's because they had an equivalent chakra ratio, and since the Amateratsu ate through the FRS, the only thing that affected the Amateratsu's output is the Futon, which posses an equivalent amount of chakra as the Amateratsu. Thus 1/2+1/2=1, hence 1/2 of the Juubi head from 1 Amateratsu.

Equivalent chakra ratio=/=Equal Size. Manga already shows that the Enton Arrow was smaller than the FRS, nor is there any evidence for the amplification of the Fuuton to the Wind being addition of chakra amount.

Those are trail markings in close proximity. Show me an actual trail marking that covers 5 large hills and then we're talking.

1. Those are Mountains in the background.

2. They look much smaller than they really are due to them being so far in the background. That trail marking obviously isn't the length of a single Mountain let alone 5 of them, lets be serious here.

Speed of sound was simply emphasised for hype purposes,

Hype purposes? Its not hype, the Sound Barrier was shown being broken, so it did move faster than Sound.

Hawk showed pure trail marks from vast distances away, which other characters have never shown. The feat remains a feat unless you can show me trail markings of a character from a vast distance comparable to this one, then I'll concede it having an amazing speed. It would be given the fact it can cross multiple large hills in a very brief time frame as the vapour didn't disperse by then.

Except that feat doesn't exist as Sasuke's hawk didn't cross the distance of 5 Large Hills. Using them as a measure of size or distance is completely flawed due to them being so small in comparison.

TBB's being not so large implies that the bird while already moving, and unconventionally at that, should easily evade the TBB my Bee's misaim or the Bird's reflexes. Hashirama was ground level, he was always highly prone to TBB's explosion, whereas an airborne hawk isn't.

1. If the Bijuu Dama flies past him, it'd just go across the ocean like it already did in the manga, so no, it wasn't the explosion he had to worry about, he couldn't evade the ball itself, being on ground level or not isn't going to make that any different, and he was in motion when it was fired.

2. He's not going to evade the explosion of the Bijuu Dama, as it is Mountain Width and Length (Large Mountain that is) and the hawk has no feat of traveling across a distance that vast in a split second, which is how long it takes the BD to explode. That is accomplished by simply firing toward the ground, or firing two Bijuu Dama at each other and having them collide.

Wind Cast Net was rather fast, Sasuke failed to dodge Vacuum sphere, Atsugai, and a few others I can't recall right now. Futon's destructive power comes from its speed alone, and sometimes its mass. Either way, Futon's which can crush are Futon's which are fast. Oh, and featless Naraka has dodged FRS as well. Oh, and I'm going to have to agree with EJBlack on this one too. Almost every TBB that has been shown to get prep'd has had those lines directed toward the TBB [1][2][3][4][5] whereas once it's fired, the marks change to the one's which indicate speed [1][2][3]. And Susano arrow doesn't explode, never has never will, so I don't see the point of that argument. TBB was the only thing that exploded and the arrow likely reached far before the TBB as the arrow has shown to be one of the fastest attacks in the entire manga, where even characters with pre-cog like Danzo get impaled several times with them. Yasaka Magatama, which was on a similar speed with the TBB, has shown to be rather slow [x].

And what implies that Wind Cast Net was fast?

Danzo needed a sneak attack to even graze Sasuke with the jutsu, so no that isn't a speed feat as he still evaded it in the end, despite it being a back attack.

Atsugai was never noted for speed, at all. Especially since I'm pretty sure Kakashi evaded that even though it was fired at him from point blank range.

Naraka dodging FRS doesn't help your argument, since FRS has better speed feats (crossing the Chibaku Tensei crater in a second or two) than any Fuuton used in this series. "Featless" doesn't mean weak, so mentioning that Naraka is featless doesn't help.

What does Susanoo arrow not exploding have to do with it not being as fast as Bijuu Dama? Nevertheless, I already admitted that its not as fast as the arrow. Bijuu Dama isn't slow though, unless you want to call Madara and Hashirama slow since the latter (Who is the former's equal in speed) couldn't evade on the ground and it crossed the ocean in a matter of seconds.

I'm just going to wait for you to explain how anything in that panel means that Yasaka Magatama is slow.

Sasuke can still use Amateratsu spammed-spawning while mounting the Hawk and flying, nor Bee doesn't start in BM to allow him to fire his TBB first. Bee is now completely enveloped with Amateratsu the size of half the Juubi, and cutting off his tentacle isn't helping because he is still in the AOE of the Amateratsu once he cuts the tentacle, so the inner part of the bisected tentacle gets lit on fire immediately.

Read above.

 

[Dannie]

Lol, you can have it.

Sasuke still wins though.

 

[Apêx1]

Oh, I didn't understand that this is what you meant.


Ok, point.

Alright

That's how the jutsu has to work as it ignites the target. It doesn't fire flame at it, it just causes the target to spontaneously ignite. That's why Amaterasu's size always varies, the user doesn't put in a certain amount of chakra to make more flame appear on them. Itachi continuously spawned Amaterasu on Sasuke's fireball, yet the size never increased. Further backing my point. If you ignite a small match and a large match, the larger match will always have a bigger flame. If a human completely caught on fire and a giant tree completely caught on fire, the tree would have the bigger flame.

Its not just convenience, its how the jutsu works, so that renders the above points about B being in its AoE moot.

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It spawns flames wherever the eye is looking. The more chakra exerted, the larger the AOE. Sasuke used a chakra amount equivalent to COFRS, whereas nothing suggests he has done so before, or anyone else for that matter. COFRS's chakra quantity is massive seeing how it would probably drain a full SM from Pain Arc SM Naruto. Sasuke being able to equate its chakra with Amateratsu implies he can replicate such a feat, based on chakra exerted. Nothing suggests Itachi used Amateratsu on the flame, nor would he be able to make it larger than the flame since the rest of his LoS is blocked and it is impossible to focus on thin air, whereas Sasuke has the entire ground to look at when airborne. Yes, what you say is true, but again, Sasuke can continously spawn Amateratsu as I showed he did against Kabuto, thus he ignites the entire Hachibi with one amateratsu spawn as you said, and then begins to ignite the surrounding proximity around the Hachibi. Either way, since Sasuke is airborne, he can in fact light the entire Hachibi on fire from top to bottom, unlike what happened in their last fight, where only the front sections of the Hachibi were blocked, until Amateratsu spread further. Hachibi completely engulfed=Hachibi always spreading fire no matter what tentacle he cuts.

Not necessarily a good example given LoS, MS and nothing indicating he wanted to kill Sasuke with a massive Amateratsu given he closed his eye. Not a great example to base this off of, as Sasuke has already shown more chakra=more Amateratsu.

Equivalent chakra ratio=/=Equal Size. Manga already shows that the Enton Arrow was smaller than the FRS, nor is there any evidence for the amplification of the Fuuton to the Wind being addition of chakra amount.

Don't see where you're going with this. If Sasuke puts a smaller amount of chakra in his attacks, he gets less flames. He puts more, he gets more flames. The size is completely irrelevant as the flame will spread naturally based on chakra outputted. I don't really get your last point though, I'm assuming you meant Futon to Katon, but I'm not sure. Either way, it's based on chakra amount. If Sasuke eats through the Futon, he hasn't gained any greater quantity of chakra within his own Jutsu, his jutsu was simply amplified by the wind itself. Since the wind present is based on the amount of chakra exerted, it's only logical to assume Sasuke's Enton simply doubles. Not to mention, the COFRS isn't entirely composed of Futon, I believe.

1. Those are Mountains in the background.

2. They look much smaller than they really are due to them being so far in the background. That trail marking obviously isn't the length of a single Mountain let alone 5 of them, lets be serious here.


Hype purposes? Its not hype, the Sound Barrier was shown being broken, so it did move faster than Sound.

Okay.

Mountains can be hill level in the manga [

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] given the size compared to the trees. Perspective doesn't change what was shown in comparison to the hills.

Yes, I know that. I am saying the author did it for emphasis, it doesn't disprove anything here either.

Except that feat doesn't exist as Sasuke's hawk didn't cross the distance of 5 Large Hills. Using them as a measure of size or distance is completely flawed due to them being so small in comparison.

Still stands, but I agree that I overestimated the hills.

1. If the Bijuu Dama flies past him, it'd just go across the ocean like it already did in the manga, so no, it wasn't the explosion he had to worry about, he couldn't evade the ball itself, being on ground level or not isn't going to make that any different, and he was in motion when it was fired.

2. He's not going to evade the explosion of the Bijuu Dama, as it is Mountain Width and Length (Large Mountain that is) and the hawk has no feat of traveling across a distance that vast in a split second, which is how long it takes the BD to explode. That is accomplished by simply firing toward the ground, or firing two Bijuu Dama at each other and having them collide.

If anything, you just showed me why TBB isn't that fast. Hashirama was in mid-air, landed on the ground despite free fall, took blood after he landed, and then summoned the Rashomon, all this before the TBB that was right behind him and moving forward, without suffering a massive speed regression due to free fall, was able to pass him [

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]. Secondly, TBB isn't as fast as FRS either, gravitational pull was what made all the attacks move as fast as they did, most likely, all of them reached their maximum momentum given that their spin no longer is what is moving it, but rather the gravitational field as well [

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][

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]. More so, the way in which the FRS was travelling wasn't the way it would traditionally travel given its position and spin, it would naturally travel in a downward arc, but here the gravity completely nullified that, thus removed the FRS's spin's momentum itself to make its speed based on its own gravitational pull rather than the speed at which it spins like usual. Therefor, TBB working in a straight line and FRS/Yasaka working in a differing way due to their non-spherical structures implies TBB had the speed velocity advantage in a gravity situation, since the other two aren't working in a straight line. Look at it this way, drop a large rock from the sky and it drop downwards extremely quickly, drop a frisbee from the sky which has a mechanical spin (but isn't moving anywhere until you drop it) and it will work with and against gravity, similarly to here. TBB has no notable feats to base its speed off, so it being capable of hitting a bird that is non-stop moving is illogical.

Since when can Bee accelerate the speed of his TBB to have them hit each other? More so, since when can Bee survive two TBB's? He's only survived one and it put him in terrible condition, not to mention that Sasuke will be far off the epicentre. The bird will die but a v3 legged Susano certainly survives from such a far distance from the epicentre as the energy per unit area there is basically that of a normal ninjutsu attack, given exponential energy regression the further you go from the epicentre. So even then; 1. Nothing notifies Bee that Sasuke is alive, nor will he think Sasuke is alive, 2. Bee will be damaged as well and there will be a massive smoke/debris cloud blinding Bee, whereas Sasuke can see clearly with his sharingan, 3. Enton arrows can be spammed and Bee has nothing to notify him of where they are coming in said smoke/debris.

And what implies that Wind Cast Net was fast?

Danzo needed a sneak attack to even graze Sasuke with the jutsu, so no that isn't a speed feat as he still evaded it in the end, despite it being a back attack.

Atsugai was never noted for speed, at all. Especially since I'm pretty sure Kakashi evaded that even though it was fired at him from point blank range.

Naraka dodging FRS doesn't help your argument, since FRS has better speed feats (crossing the Chibaku Tensei crater in a second or two) than any Fuuton used in this series. "Featless" doesn't mean weak, so mentioning that Naraka is featless doesn't help.

What does Susanoo arrow not exploding have to do with it not being as fast as Bijuu Dama? Nevertheless, I already admitted that its not as fast as the arrow. Bijuu Dama isn't slow though, unless you want to call Madara and Hashirama slow since the latter (Who is the former's equal in speed) couldn't evade on the ground and it crossed the ocean in a matter of seconds.

I'm just going to wait for you to explain how anything in that panel means that Yasaka Magatama is slow.


Read above.

It threw the Raikage far back, and pierced his skin. Wind cannot achieve such a thing without massive speed, unless you are telling me Wind Cast Net is sharper then FRS, despite affecting a larger surface area. It did it with power, and the only thing giving it power is its speed/directional force.

He was still hit, so it is a speed feat.

Kakashi went behind the mask, so he was never in the Futon's AOE to begin with. Atsugai was still noted to be very fast, and given its destructive capabilities, I'd assume such is true.

Doesn't matter, that's is one thing it achieved, and even then cannot be attributed to TBB. You also claimed that NV world cannot be attributed to our world's miscomprehension's of such speeds, in the Sasori supersonic argument. Either way, fact remains that even human path could grab the animal path, turn around, and throw him all before FRS travelled 20 centimetres [

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]. Even the FRS's expanding speed was far faster than its travelling speed, whereas TBB has nothing which can be attributed to it from this. Either way, Naruto's FRS crossed a small amount of the crater (will be addressed) yet couldn't reach Human path from 20 centimetres before he could do a 180 and throw Animal path away. Much speed, much wows. 3rd Raikage dodged it several times, Preta absorbed it a few times, Human path solo'd its speed, Naraka dodged it, remind me again... What exactly are its amazing speed feats? Hell it didn't even cross the crater, that must be one of the biggest misconceptions on the base [

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]. It's abundantly clear it never did what you claim for it to have done, TBB doesn't gain any feats from this either, so it remains a decent speed mass of kinetic energy which has no reason to hit EMS Sasuke constantly moving.

Because you said Bijuu Dama was able to reach the same distance as Susano arrow exhibited by the explosion, to EJBlack. That's illogial seeing how that explosion would've been the TBB alone, the Arrow had nothing to do with it since it doesn't explode. Thus what we saw was Susano arrow being fired before TBB finished prepping, and that was the last of it. But yes, TBB's only good speed feat is 100% Kurama being able to have his TBB reach a far side of the ocean in an unknown amount of time. Though, 100% Kyuubi's TBB>50% Kyuubi's TBB=Hachibi's, not to mention 100% Kyuubi's TBB was easily reacted to by Minato who used several hand seals before it reached. Either way, no impressive speed feats imo. Yasaka Magatama's speed is iffy imo. A massive rock golem and a large amount of sand were used to counter it, don't see why I have any reason to believe it is fast, especially given the fact that the gravity field was the only reason it went so fast.

 

[KidGamer65]

It spawns flames wherever the eye is looking. The more chakra exerted, the larger the AOE. Sasuke used a chakra amount equivalent to COFRS, whereas nothing suggests he has done so before, or anyone else for that matter. COFRS's chakra quantity is massive seeing how it would probably drain a full SM from Pain Arc SM Naruto. Sasuke being able to equate its chakra with Amateratsu implies he can replicate such a feat, based on chakra exerted. Nothing suggests Itachi used Amateratsu on the flame, nor would he be able to make it larger than the flame since the rest of his LoS is blocked and it is impossible to focus on thin air, whereas Sasuke has the entire ground to look at when airborne. Yes, what you say is true, but again, Sasuke can continously spawn Amateratsu as I showed he did against Kabuto, thus he ignites the entire Hachibi with one amateratsu spawn as you said, and then begins to ignite the surrounding proximity around the Hachibi. Either way, since Sasuke is airborne, he can in fact light the entire Hachibi on fire from top to bottom, unlike what happened in their last fight, where only the front sections of the Hachibi were blocked, until Amateratsu spread further. Hachibi completely engulfed=Hachibi always spreading fire no matter what tentacle he cuts.

Except nothing in the manga ever states that. That's just an explanation you came up with that you believe is logical, but the manga shows otherwise. Every. Single. Time. No exceptions. But the bold is possible. Regardless, B can still cut off the tentacle, he'll be inside, safe from the flame, then he comes out in V2, gets out of the encampment of flame he was trapped in, and then reenters Bijuu Mode, which blows any flame off his body, assuming that he can't just jump over the encampment of flame he's stuck in, and nothing implies that he can't.

-Enton Kagutsuchi=/=Amaterasu, so why you are mentioning it when I'm talking about Amaterasu?

-Nothing suggest Itachi used Amaterasu on the flame? Really now? The fireball is the thing that ignited, thus that is what he used Amaterasu on.

Not necessarily a good example given LoS, MS and nothing indicating he wanted to kill Sasuke with a massive Amateratsu given he closed his eye. Not a great example to base this off of, as Sasuke has already shown more chakra=more Amateratsu.

Irrelevant. According to your logic, him continuously using Amaterasu should result in more flame, thus a bigger fireball, except Itachi did that and that isn't what happened.

Don't see where you're going with this. If Sasuke puts a smaller amount of chakra in his attacks, he gets less flames. He puts more, he gets more flames. The size is completely irrelevant as the flame will spread naturally based on chakra outputted. I don't really get your last point though, I'm assuming you meant Futon to Katon, but I'm not sure. Either way, it's based on chakra amount. If Sasuke eats through the Futon, he hasn't gained any greater quantity of chakra within his own Jutsu, his jutsu was simply amplified by the wind itself. Since the wind present is based on the amount of chakra exerted, it's only logical to assume Sasuke's Enton simply doubles. Not to mention, the COFRS isn't entirely composed of Futon, I believe.

Where did the bold come from? The amount of flame shown is the amount of flame that will hit. Nothing implies otherwise.

Since when did elemental amplification just an addition of chakra amount inside the jutsu? That's what I was asking.

Mountains can be hill level in the manga [

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] given the size compared to the trees. Perspective doesn't change what was shown in comparison to the hills.

Yes, it does. Those aren't hill level Mountains, those are Mountains. The Mountains are much farther back than the trees are, thus the Mountains look much smaller than they actually are.

Yes, I know that. I am saying the author did it for emphasis, it doesn't disprove anything here either.

It shows that leaving marks that indicate speed means nothing when we have nothing else or any character to compare it to, or any statements at all. Sasori's IS broke the Sound Barrier, Juubito doesn't do that when he moves, is Juubito slower? Nope. Same principle here. Showing me that the hawk moves fast doesn't cut it, it has to be fast enough, and nothing implies that it is.

Still stands, but I agree that I overestimated the hills.

It doesn't stand solely due to perspective.

If anything, you just showed me why TBB isn't that fast. Hashirama was in mid-air, landed on the ground despite free fall, took blood after he landed, and then summoned the Rashomon, all this before the TBB that was right behind him and moving forward, without suffering a massive speed regression due to free fall, was able to pass him [

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]. Secondly, TBB isn't as fast as FRS either, gravitational pull was what made all the attacks move as fast as they did, most likely, all of them reached their maximum momentum given that their spin no longer is what is moving it, but rather the gravitational field as well [

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

]. More so, the way in which the FRS was travelling wasn't the way it would traditionally travel given its position and spin, it would naturally travel in a downward arc, but here the gravity completely nullified that, thus removed the FRS's spin's momentum itself to make its speed based on its own gravitational pull rather than the speed at which it spins like usual. Therefor, TBB working in a straight line and FRS/Yasaka working in a differing way due to their non-spherical structures implies TBB had the speed velocity advantage in a gravity situation, since the other two aren't working in a straight line. Look at it this way, drop a large rock from the sky and it drop downwards extremely quickly, drop a frisbee from the sky which has a mechanical spin (but isn't moving anywhere until you drop it) and it will work with and against gravity, similarly to here. TBB has no notable feats to base its speed off, so it being capable of hitting a bird that is non-stop moving is illogical.

-That isn't free fall. Hashirama jumped from a rock toward the ground, so he was moving at an increasing speed. If he had jumped in the air, then had begun to fall back down, then it'd be free fall. And Hashirama is fast.

-Hashirama summoning Rashomon before Bijuu Dama hit only means that Hashirama is fast, which is something that has been established, so I don't know why you keep using character reactions as evidence that something is slow. He already noted that it reached the other shore and we saw it do that in a few seconds, so no, its fast, and that's a fact.

@bold: It was still spinning though, and when not influenced by any outside sources, Bijuu Dama>FRS and YM when it comes to speed based on feats, so no.

The bird evading Bijuu Dama just because its moving non stop is the illogical assertion here. Non stop moving only makes it harder to aim, if the bird is too slow, its most likely that he'll get hit, unless B is a terrible shot.

Since when can Bee accelerate the speed of his TBB to have them hit each other? More so, since when can Bee survive two TBB's? He's only survived one and it put him in terrible condition, not to mention that Sasuke will be far off the epicentre. The bird will die but a v3 legged Susano certainly survives from such a far distance from the epicentre as the energy per unit area there is basically that of a normal ninjutsu attack, given exponential energy regression the further you go from the epicentre. So even then; 1. Nothing notifies Bee that Sasuke is alive, nor will he think Sasuke is alive, 2. Bee will be damaged as well and there will be a massive smoke/debris cloud blinding Bee, whereas Sasuke can see clearly with his sharingan, 3. Enton arrows can be spammed and Bee has nothing to notify him of where they are coming in said smoke/debris.

Fine, ignore the Bijuu Dama hitting each other part.
Where is the evidence for the bold? The energy decreasing the farther you get away doesn't translate to Sasuke being that far away means he'll only take damage equal to a normal Ninjutsu attack. Completely unsubstantiated.

The bird dies and then Sasuke survives, then he dies to the second Bijuu Dama as he won't be in flight. B not noticing he's alive is completely ridiculous. As if he won't see a Susanoo in the air, hell, he'll even see Sasuke falling to the ground once his transportation is obliterated. B can coil up to protect himself from the brunt of the blast, so he'll survive, and no, there won't be any kind of massive smoke/debris cloud hiding B.

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A second after Kurama's Bijuu Dama blew up, everything cleared and Madara and Hashirama could see each other. So B sees his arrow coming, uses Bijuu Dama, plows through it and kills Sasuke.

It threw the Raikage far back, and pierced his skin. Wind cannot achieve such a thing without massive speed, unless you are telling me Wind Cast Net is sharper then FRS, despite affecting a larger surface area. It did it with power, and the only thing giving it power is its speed/directional force.

1. Wind Cast Net affects a smaller Surface Area than FRS.

2. He was in Base when he got cut, so no, it doesn't need to faster than FRS.

3. Sasori's IS needs massive speed to break the Sound Barrier, is that enough evidence that compared to pretty much every mid-top tier that its fast? No.

He was still hit, so it is a speed feat.

A speed feat for Sasuke since he didn't see it coming yet still evaded it, meaning if he had saw it coming he would have evaded it with no damage. In what world does landing a sneak attack=speed feat? Lol.

Kakashi went behind the mask, so he was never in the Futon's AOE to begin with. Atsugai was still noted to be very fast, and given its destructive capabilities, I'd assume such is true.

Which means he dodged it. The Mask was right behind him, it fired at him, but he was shown to be fine, so he didn't get hit despite being fired at from point blank range. That's not fast. Where was Atsugai noted to be very fast anyway?

Doesn't matter, that's is one thing it achieved, and even then cannot be attributed to TBB. You also claimed that NV world cannot be attributed to our world's miscomprehension's of such speeds, in the Sasori supersonic argument. Either way, fact remains that even human path could grab the animal path, turn around, and throw him all before FRS travelled 20 centimetres [

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].

Which means Pain is fast, something that we've already seen. Doesn't change the fact that FRS is the fastest Fuuton.

Even the FRS's expanding speed was far faster than its travelling speed, whereas TBB has nothing which can be attributed to it from this. Either way, Naruto's FRS crossed a small amount of the crater (will be addressed) yet couldn't reach Human path from 20 centimetres before he could do a 180 and throw Animal path away. Much speed, much wows. 3rd Raikage dodged it several times, Preta absorbed it a few times, Human path solo'd its speed, Naraka dodged it, remind me again... What exactly are its amazing speed feats? Hell it didn't even cross the crater, that must be one of the biggest misconceptions on the base [

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]. It's abundantly clear it never did what you claim for it to have done, TBB doesn't gain any feats from this either, so it remains a decent speed mass of kinetic energy which has no reason to hit EMS Sasuke constantly moving.

I never stated that FRS was the tip of the iceburg when it came to speed, I just said its faster than any other Fuuton out there by feats, and nothing you've posted disproves that, while everything in the manga proves that right. You are the one who said Fuuton shouldn't be undermined since they are extremely fast, so you saying FRS isn't fast, hurts your argument, as it sure isn't slower than any other Fuuton we were talking about here.

And no, it did cross the crater. Your point for Naruto's location makes absolutely no sense since he has to be in the crater, but in the crater at the point you made, the explosion of FRS is taking place, so Naruto was behind that, unless you think he tanked FRS and somehow tossed his attack several meters only to be at the end of the explosion. So he has to be somewhere on the left.

Because you said Bijuu Dama was able to reach the same distance as Susano arrow exhibited by the explosion, to EJBlack. That's illogial seeing how that explosion would've been the TBB alone, the Arrow had nothing to do with it since it doesn't explode. Thus what we saw was Susano arrow being fired before TBB finished prepping, and that was the last of it. But yes, TBB's only good speed feat is 100% Kurama being able to have his TBB reach a far side of the ocean in an unknown amount of time. Though, 100% Kyuubi's TBB>50% Kyuubi's TBB=Hachibi's, not to mention 100% Kyuubi's TBB was easily reacted to by Minato who used several hand seals before it reached. Either way, no impressive speed feats imo. Yasaka Magatama's speed is iffy imo. A massive rock golem and a large amount of sand were used to counter it, don't see why I have any reason to believe it is fast, especially given the fact that the gravity field was the only reason it went so fast.

1. Minato reacting to something doesn't make it slow, I don't know why anyone would ever claim something like that.

2. In what universe is 100% Kurama's standard Bijuu Dama faster than BM Naruto's? Since when did Kurama being split in half mean his attack got slower?

3. Lol, a rock golem and sand shield were formed from the ground up to block Yasaka Magatama. All that means is that they form fast enough. I don't know why you thought that this was evidence that its slow, but its not. "Massive" and "Large Amounts" aren't descriptions that are helping your argument.

 

[Rιver]

So B enters V2, and Sasuke supposedly won't blitz before he goes Bijuu Mode or kill him while he's inside the tentacle?