Killer Bee vs Edo Itachi

[Eternal Sage]

YounqDebater solod this thread hot dayum

 

[ARGUS]

This Intel changes things how exactly? He'd remove his tentacles how? I don't recall him doing that himself in the manga, can you provide a scan?

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now that he has intel means that he does this before any damage is being dealt

Alive Itachi basically spammed Amatersau, Edo Itachi should have little trouble roasting Hachi.

yeah not happening,
amaterasu cant be fired immediately within rapid succession or within seconds, even for edo itachi, let alone for living itachi
bee can also blow him away with whirlwind and then kill him with TBB,
itachi resorting to any other technique bar amaterasu (which gets countered) would result in him getting vaporised,

 

[blazekev90]

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now that he has intel means that he does this before any damage is being dealt


yeah not happening,
amaterasu cant be fired immediately within rapid succession or within seconds, even for edo itachi, let alone for living itachi
bee can also blow him away with whirlwind and then kill him with TBB,
itachi resorting to any other technique bar amaterasu (which gets countered) would result in him getting vaporised,

Can you provide the full scan? I hate cropped images, I need to analyze it for myself. Preferably the chapter if so.

Yet Itachi has does this successfully already

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Here he fired three shots of Amaterasu "within seconds" of each other. Therefore, hachi rushing to remove one limb, would than have to remove another. Eventually it'll spread before he'll ace time to remove it. Likewise with Nagato's dog summoning. Usually it'll just detach itself but failed to do so against Amaterasu because the flames had spread to rapdily.

If Bee removes tentacles to counter amaterau the whirlwind would be ineffective.

 

[ARGUS]

Can you provide the full scan? I hate cropped images, I need to analyze it for myself. Preferably the chapter if so.

ok here you go,

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despite being pulled in by GM,,

Yet Itachi has does this successfully already

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Here he fired three shots of Amaterasu "within seconds" of each other. Therefore, hachi rushing to remove one limb, would than have to remove another. Eventually it'll spread before he'll ace time to remove it. Likewise with Nagato's dog summoning. Usually it'll just detach itself but failed to do so against Amaterasu because the flames had spread to rapdily.

If Bee removes tentacles to counter amaterau the whirlwind would be ineffective.

hachibi can then cover itself with its tentacles whilst prepping the TBB, he then cuts the tentacles to get rid of the flames and then eradicates itachi with a TBB

hachibi managed to prep its TBB seconds after it was pushed back by the jjuubi,
itachi has no chance of preventing himself from getting vaporised

 

[Minato namikaze123]

Killer bee stomps ...high diff
Genjutsu won't work agains a jinjuriki
Amateratsu is blocked by the tentacles
susano isn't doing shit.
TBB barrage ends it.!!

 

[Apêx1]

Itachi wins. Totsuka ends, so does Tsukiyomi. Bee has no counter to these two, thus he loses. Simple as that really.

 

[lanakui8]

This can go either way.

amaterasu still forces bee to either chop off a tentacle or revert to a weaker mode, and as an edo, itachi can spam that technique till he goes blind.
Bijuudama especially bijuudama barrage would defeat itachi as his V4 susanoo was never implied to withstand a direct hit from a bijuudama let alone four of them. V3 susanoo (a level below V4) gets busted by attacks that aren't on the same level as a bijuudama, attacks like ei's weighted punch or Afternoon tiger. Higher level of susanoo meets the same result if it's hit with a higher level attack. Yaata might allow the construct to survive a bijuudama, but not 4, unless of course we give yaata its no limits hype that was disproven in the manga when it failed to reflect orochimaru's orochi heads.
I don't understand where people get totsuka blitz from. What feat would allow totsuka to stab a fully mobile hachibi? Going by feats, the hachibi is much more mobile than itachi's susanoo.

Tsukuyomi is a non-factor in this fight since bijuu perceive the external world through the minds of their jinchuriki, and therefore if bee experiences time slowed down, so does the hachibi. Thus the hachibi has all the time in the world to snap bee out of the genjutsu.

I just skipped their base and non-bijuu arsenal because I found it irrelevant. If itachi tries to fight BM bee w/o susanoo he gets killed, if bee tries to fight itachi's susanoo w/o BM, he's just wasting his time. Interestingly, itachi who is known to suck at battles of attrition has better chances of winning the longer the battle goes on as bee will have to expend tails or lots of chakra to revert to cloaked forms from BM in order to take care of amaterasu while itachi never runs out of chakra.

So in conclusion, I think it could go either way.

 

[Apêx1]

Yaata might allow the construct to survive a bijuudama, but not 4, unless of course we give yaata its no limits hype that was disproven in the manga when it failed to reflect orochimaru's orochi heads.

Never disproven.. It

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the heads well.

I don't understand where people get totsuka blitz from. What feat would allow totsuka to stab a fully mobile hachibi? Going by feats, the hachibi is much more mobile than itachi's susanoo.

Blitzing him straight up won't happen, Hachibi would evade. However, as every sword, its direction can be altered and thus still hit Hachibi no matter what. A stab's direction can be changed and Hachibi can no do nothing about that.

Tsukuyomi is a non-factor in this fight since bijuu perceive the external world through the minds of their jinchuriki, and therefore if bee experiences time slowed down, so does the hachibi. Thus the hachibi has all the time in the world to snap bee out of the genjutsu.

Based on what would the Hachibi also go into the Tsukiyomi realm? Don't see where people get this from, he doesn't go into the Tsukiyomi realm at all, it's been stated that he feels the Jin's chakra disturbance, meaning he doesn't see the genjutsu his Jin is inside.

 

[lanakui8]

Never disproven.. It

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the heads well.

It clearly didn't reflect the heads as reflecting the heads would send the heads in the opposite direction of whence they came. So yes, its ability to reflect any attack has been disproven on panel.

Not only that, but no limits hyperbole statements aren't true unless disproven. We've been given tons of no limits statements in the manga and none of them are true, yaata's hype by the same character who says itachi is invincible despite itachi dieing a minute later, amaterasu is completely unavoidable despite Ei avoiding it in no way gets taken as literal.

Blitzing him straight up won't happen, Hachibi would evade. However, as every sword, its direction can be altered and thus still hit Hachibi no matter what. A stab's direction can be changed and Hachibi can no do nothing about that.

If Itachi's stabbing so slowly that he can alter its direction, bee parries the sword with a tentacle or hand. Plus, the hachibi is not even going to let itachi get close to him since Bee's best weapons are long range and is much more mobile than itachi's V4 susanoo.

Based on what would the Hachibi also go into the Tsukiyomi realm? Don't see where people get this from, he doesn't go into the Tsukiyomi realm at all, it's been stated that he feels the Jin's chakra disturbance, meaning he doesn't see the genjutsu his Jin is inside.

I literally explained exactly how the hachibi would EXPERIENCE THE TTSUKIYOMI REALM THROUGH BEE'S PERCEPTION OF REALITY. You straight up ignored that, and therefore you've conceded that point. Bijuus experience the external world through the perception of their jinchuriki, if bee perceives the tsukuyomi realm, and his mind exists in their, the hachibi perceives the same thing through bee's mind.

 

[Benjamin King]

T Bogard actually brought up a good point of Totsuka not working on Jinchuuriki. I believe it's stated the Chakra of a Bijuu would need to be divided in order to be hosted by the vessel. Totsuka failed to seal Orochimaru; and given to how Itachi's body is unable to handle the reserves of a Bijuu, the sealing would not work. Amatersu has been countered by the substitution and deflected by Bijuu's Chakra cloak. Tsukuyomi doesn't work on Perfect Jinchuuriki. Susanoo is nowhere in offensive, defensive and movement as Bijuu Mode. After Bee had been overpowering Itach throughout the fight, he proceeds to seal him.

Killer Bee wins.​

 

[Haizaki]

Killer B wins this.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Itachi still solo's.

 

[Apêx1]

It clearly didn't reflect the heads as reflecting the heads would send the heads in the opposite direction of whence they came. So yes, its ability to reflect any attack has been disproven on panel.

Must be the worst debunking of Yata I have ever heard of. Are you implying that Yata is supposed to send their heads back inside their body? Because that's wha you are getting at, and that's completely fallacious. Why? Because Yata repels with an equivalent force of what came at it, the force that the hydra head sent at Yata is clearly not sufficient enough to push the Hydra' head within itself, hence it went upwards. Your claim right now is basically even Sasuke's Kusanagi failed to be reflected, since it didn't go directly backwards (which means it would go inside itself, doubling its density Lol).

Not only that, but no limits hyperbole statements aren't true unless disproven. We've been given tons of no limits statements in the manga and none of them are true, yaata's hype by the same character who says itachi is invincible despite itachi dieing a minute later, amaterasu is completely unavoidable despite Ei avoiding it in no way gets taken as literal.

You are correct about one part and wrong about another. Yata's hype is this [

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]. This is its mechanical working [

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]. That is how it works, that is Kishi's own description of Yata's working, there's nothing within it where you can cry hyperbole. It changes its properties to match that of an incoming attack, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't even have a physical form, it changes shape as shown, it changes size as shown, it changes its properties as shown; it changes its characteristics. There's really nothing to deny here, Yata can reflect the attack. There's a clear distinction between hype like Sasuke's "God like speed" Raikiri's ability to "cut anything in its way" Amateratsu's ability to instantly "burn down anything to nothingness" and the mechanical working of something which is in no way hyperbolised at one point, but emphasised on with a hyperbole at another point. Yata's hype is by Zetsu and DB, along with its mechanical working, and its implicative feats which have done what its stated to be capable of.

If Itachi's stabbing so slowly that he can alter its direction, bee parries the sword with a tentacle or hand. Plus, the hachibi is not even going to let itachi get close to him since Bee's best weapons are long range and is much more mobile than itachi's V4 susanoo.

Dude.. No.. Just no. You have no argument here. Shuriken cuts through his tails, and that was the centre of the shuriken ie the part that's not even sharpened. Itachi's Totsuka stabs right through him and nothing you say will change that when its stabbed through people cleanly, while also slicing off massive Snake heads cleanly. It's a susano after all, suggesting it doesn't have the ability to thrust and change it to a swipe at a speed great enough to pierce the Hachibi isn't even an argument to begin with. Why? Because Totsuka has no physical shape, Itachi decides its shape. What else? Because Itachi is using Susano, and Susano is more than powerful enough to change a thrust to a swipe. Bee/Hachibi isn't going to turn around and run, then face Itachi from a distance. Not happening. If he does that he gets amateratsu'd, and closes the distance. Itachi can keep that up longer than Bee can keep cutting tentacles, so he'd win such a ludicrous battle. It's going to be a CQC fight, and nothing implies Bee would run away from Itachi's Susano so that he can fight it from a range, not to mention Itachi can Amateratsu and follow up with an extended Totsuka thrust.

I literally explained exactly how the hachibi would EXPERIENCE THE TTSUKIYOMI REALM THROUGH BEE'S PERCEPTION OF REALITY. You straight up ignored that, and therefore you've conceded that point. Bijuus experience the external world through the perception of their jinchuriki, if bee perceives the tsukuyomi realm, and his mind exists in their, the hachibi perceives the same thing through bee's mind.

I never ignored that, I asked for evidence of the @caps you have claimed. You asserting that I conceded a point when I asked for evidence of it and you didn't grant me it, is suggesting you have no evidence of such. Examples of Bee in Genjutsu [

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][

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]. Do notice that Bee was thinking for himself for extended periods of time before Hachibi Kai'd himself out, those are several instants of him talking to himself, and him lying on the ground, yet Tsukiyomi happens before an instant passes according to the VIZ [

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]. Another thing to note is that Tsukiyomi is unbreakable by anyone that isn't an Elitist Uchiha, meaning Bee is included and evidently so since partner method takes time to break it, or at least, more than an instant.

 

[lanakui8]

Must be the worst debunking of Yata I have ever heard of. Are you implying that Yata is supposed to send their heads back inside their body? Because that's wha you are getting at, and that's completely fallacious. Why? Because Yata repels with an equivalent force of what came at it, the force that the hydra head sent at Yata is clearly not sufficient enough to push the Hydra' head within itself, hence it went upwards. Your claim right now is basically even Sasuke's Kusanagi failed to be reflected, since it didn't go directly backwards (which means it would go inside itself, doubling its density Lol).

No, yaata is suppose to send their heads in the exact opposite direction. Obviously you don't understand what 'reflect' means since if yaata reflected an equivalent force back on the snake heads, the heads wouldn't move as the reflecting force would cancel the momentum they have before they hit the mirror. If yaata sends the snake heads straight up or to the side, it's not reflecting them or the attack it's DEFLECTING them, and therefore that falsifies yaata's statement about it being able to reflect any attack.

You are correct about one part and wrong about another. Yata's hype is this [

You must be registered for see links

]. This is its mechanical working [

You must be registered for see links

]. That is how it works, that is Kishi's own description of Yata's working, there's nothing within it where you can cry hyperbole. It changes its properties to match that of an incoming attack, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't even have a physical form, it changes shape as shown, it changes size as shown, it changes its properties as shown; it changes its characteristics. There's really nothing to deny here, Yata can reflect the attack. There's a clear distinction between hype like Sasuke's "God like speed" Raikiri's ability to "cut anything in its way" Amateratsu's ability to instantly "burn down anything to nothingness" and the mechanical working of something which is in no way hyperbolised at one point, but emphasised on with a hyperbole at another point. Yata's hype is by Zetsu and DB, along with its mechanical working, and its implicative feats which have done what its stated to be capable of.

The databook statements that you've underlined were made in regards to susanoo, yaata and totsuka not yaata itself, and are completely false unless you believe that itachi's V4 susanoo can withstand an infinite amount of universal sized explosions. And yes, considering the databook consistently gives out no limits hyperbole statements, the statement about itachi's susanoo having no limits is definitely grounds for hyperbole espcially since we've seen nothing that remotely backs those statements up in the manga.

The databook never said anything about yaata changing its shape, neither does it say anything about yaata being able to reflect any attack, when the databook goes into the mechanics of yaata it states that the mirror is imbued with all natural transformations, and thus it changes its properties in order to render the attack ineffective. That, is a mechanics statement, and no where does it say anything about reflecting, no where does it say about no limits.

So no, Yaata in no way shape or form has the no limits that the databook's hyperbole attributes to it. The mechanics are clearly explained and have nothing to do with it reflecting any attack, only redering attacks inneffective by changing its nature transformation properties.

Wait, did you just say that yaata's feats imply that it actually has no limits, is literally invincible and can literally do what the databook suggests it can do?

Finally, debate honestly. Raikiri was never stated to 'cut anything in its way' it was stated to cut through anything, which would be a mechanics statement by your logic, just like amatersu burning down anything would be a mechanics statement.

Dude.. No.. Just no. You have no argument here. Shuriken cuts through his tails, and that was the centre of the shuriken ie the part that's not even sharpened. Itachi's Totsuka stabs right through him and nothing you say will change that when its stabbed through people cleanly, while also slicing off massive Snake heads cleanly. It's a susano after all, suggesting it doesn't have the ability to thrust and change it to a swipe at a speed great enough to pierce the Hachibi isn't even an argument to begin with. Why? Because Totsuka has no physical shape, Itachi decides its shape. What else? Because Itachi is using Susano, and Susano is more than powerful enough to change a thrust to a swipe. Bee/Hachibi isn't going to turn around and run, then face Itachi from a distance. Not happening. If he does that he gets amateratsu'd, and closes the distance. Itachi can keep that up longer than Bee can keep cutting tentacles, so he'd win such a ludicrous battle. It's going to be a CQC fight, and nothing implies Bee would run away from Itachi's Susano so that he can fight it from a range, not to mention Itachi can Amateratsu and follow up with an extended Totsuka thrust.

If Itachi is stabbing with totsuka, then shuriken cuting the tails have nothing to do with the tails parrying the blade since there's no slashing force of totsuka hitting the tails.

Obviously susanoo can't begin a sword thrust and then change it to a sword swipe in the middle unless the sword thrust is extremely slow.

Totsuka having no real physical shape is irrelevant to its ability to change from a thrust to a swipe since the momentum of the thrust or swipe comes from susanoo.

If Itachi tries amaterasu, bee retaliates with rapidfire bijuudama and ends itachi.

I never ignored that, I asked for evidence of the @caps you have claimed. You asserting that I conceded a point when I asked for evidence of it and you didn't grant me it, is suggesting you have no evidence of such. Examples of Bee in Genjutsu [

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][

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]. Do notice that Bee was thinking for himself for extended periods of time before Hachibi Kai'd himself out, those are several instants of him talking to himself, and him lying on the ground, yet Tsukiyomi happens before an instant passes according to the VIZ [

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].

What in the world does the hachibi's kai not being as instant as bee's mental though process while operating under the affects of normal time = the hachibi doesn't experience reality through the mind of its jinchuriki?

How else would a bijuu experience reality unless through the mind of their jinchuriki? The only alternative argument you could pose is that the bijuu is directly linked with the jinchuriki's eyes, ears, and body and when the sensory organs send messages to the brain of the jinchuriki, it also for and by some inexplicable reason/method sends those messages to the brain of the bijuu as well. Not only that, but if the hachibi didn't experience reality through bee's mind, then it would have snapped bee out of itachi's genjutsu long before bee noticed he was in it since the hachibi would not have been affected by the genjutsu and would have seen bee striking air and talking to air.

Another thing to note is that Tsukiyomi is unbreakable by anyone that isn't an Elitist Uchiha, meaning Bee is included and evidently so since partner method takes time to break it, or at least, more than an instant.

Bee doesn't break the genjutsu, he gets snapped out of it. Breaking the jutsu would be what sasuke did against itachi's tsukuyomi where he battles the genjutsu with his own genjuts prowess and overcomes it. Snapping someone out of a genjutsu has nothing to do with beating the genjutsu with another genjutsu.

 

[blazekev90]

ok here you go,

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despite being pulled in by GM,,



hachibi can then cover itself with its tentacles whilst prepping the TBB, he then cuts the tentacles to get rid of the flames and then eradicates itachi with a TBB

hachibi managed to prep its TBB seconds after it was pushed back by the jjuubi,
itachi has no chance of preventing himself from getting vaporised

While your claims seems plausible, it's illogical given the situation. As Gezo was pulling Hachi in by its neck, what was the reason for it to remove the tentacle? From that I observed, Hahchi at that moment, like everyone else, was trying to prevent themselves from being pulled in. Hachi was using his tentacle, in the upper panel, to latch on to something, but the tentacle either couldn't 1) withstand the strain or 2) was slashed considering the drawing. Also, Hachi should've used this feat ealier when Kakashi used Kamui, knowing it's size would've drained his chakra. After Kakashi and Naruto apologize for removing the Hachi's "leg" he didn't correct them or imply that it was insignificant as he himself could do so manually. Also, we witnessed limbs on the Hachi that never grew back (horn/other tentacles)

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also, the Hachi completely covering itself argument allows Itachi to use substitution in midst of TBB being prepped or to use Totsuka.

The speed of the TBB is overrated, the reason why it has either been intercepted/blcoekd/caught majority of the time. Ino herself used a jutsu before Juubi TBB reached Naruto as it was two feet infront of them. Therefore, your attempt to conclude how fast TBB was is debunked as we know for a fact. This was 2 seconds time lapse

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SN: sorry my replies are so chopped up, my tablet keeps freezing, so I have to copy my post as i type just to secure it.

 

[Itachi Solos]

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[TRE MERCER]

Until my post is countered Itachi shits...

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Until my post is countered Itachi shits...

Until a single Killer Bee supporter puts up an adequate post/counter, Edo Itachi shits; and that's yet to be seen.

 

[Apêx1]

No, yaata is suppose to send their heads in the exact opposite direction. Obviously you don't understand what 'reflect' means since if yaata reflected an equivalent force back on the snake heads, the heads wouldn't move as the reflecting force would cancel the momentum they have before they hit the mirror. If yaata sends the snake heads straight up or to the side, it's not reflecting them or the attack it's DEFLECTING them, and therefore that falsifies yaata's statement about it being able to reflect any attack.

You keep projecting your own flaws onto me. That's not how it works buddy. Reflect definition

verb (used with object), re·pelled, re·pel·ling.
1.
to drive or force back (an assailant, invader, etc.).
2.
to thrust back or away.
3.
to resist effectively (an attack, onslaught, etc.).
4.
to keep off or out; fail to mix with:
Water and oil repel each other.
5.
to resist the absorption or passage of (water or other liquid):
This coat repels rain.
6.
to refuse to have to do with; resist involvement in:
to repel temptation.
7.
to refuse to accept or admit; reject:
to repel a suggestion.

As you can see, what it did was indeed a justifiable reflection. Fix your own believed definition before you tell people to fix theirs.

The databook statements that you've underlined were made in regards to susanoo, yaata and totsuka not yaata itself, and are completely false unless you believe that itachi's V4 susanoo can withstand an infinite amount of universal sized explosions. And yes, considering the databook consistently gives out no limits hyperbole statements, the statement about itachi's susanoo having no limits is definitely grounds for hyperbole espcially since we've seen nothing that remotely backs those statements up in the manga.

Don't be a straw man. My post is clearly based on this scan [

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]. The heading already makes it clear that Yata is the topic at hand. Don't see where this is all coming from, as I clearly indicated the other one was hyperbole. And no, infinite universal or omniversal explosions don't exist in NV, and Yata can only be applied to NV's physicals, so it doesn't counter anything of the like as it wasn't intended to be considered in the first place. So no, mechanical working isn't hyperbole, it's how it actually works and it doesn't get any simpler than that.

The databook never said anything about yaata changing its shape, neither does it say anything about yaata being able to reflect any attack, when the databook goes into the mechanics of yaata it states that the mirror is imbued with all natural transformations, and thus it changes its properties in order to render the attack ineffective. That, is a mechanics statement, and no where does it say anything about reflecting, no where does it say about no limits.

Once again, your reading comprehension failure is blatantly obvious (or you simply didn't look at the DB scan which I set forth, which I also suspect). Attributes are changed [

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], and size can be an attribute of the Yata, thus it can change its shape and size. Not to mention that it has already changed both shape and size canonically since it has

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, so there's nothing to debate here. And where exactly was it stated to have been imbued with all 5 natures? It is said to reflect/deflect attacks and nothing implies chakra nature is what is its constituent permitter, as its reflected Snake heads and Kusanagi sword, which don't carry chakra natures. There's grammatical mistakes in this quote which I can't understand (last sentence, clarify). So no, it deflects/reflects attacks because it is exerting a similar attack back at said attack, thus reflecting the attack in whatever context.

So no, Yaata in no way shape or form has the no limits that the databook's hyperbole attributes to it. The mechanics are clearly explained and have nothing to do with it reflecting any attack, only redering attacks inneffective by changing its nature transformation properties.

Once again, bring me a scan of the mechanics having been implied to be based around 5 nature transformations. And no, I don't care for your writing justifying it, nor do I care for your laziness not wanting to bring it (since it isn't existent). Bring it from the mechanical workings or drop the point as a whole.

Wait, did you just say that yaata's feats imply that it actually has no limits, is literally invincible and can literally do what the databook suggests it can do?

Anything within the NV realm is within Yata's reach, yes.

Finally, debate honestly. Raikiri was never stated to 'cut anything in its way' it was stated to cut through anything, which would be a mechanics statement by your logic, just like amatersu burning down anything would be a mechanics statement.

How is that a mechanics statement, there's nothing saying how it does it. You just proved that you didn't click the links I provided previously, as I know you aren't this much of an idiot to think this is comparable to Yata's mechanical working. That reading comprehension man..

If Itachi is stabbing with totsuka, then shuriken cuting the tails have nothing to do with the tails parrying the blade since there's no slashing force of totsuka hitting the tails.

Once again, how will tails parry the blade when it slices right through them? Look, it's this simple. Hydra heads aren't being cut by Shurikens. Hachibi tails are extremely easily cut, and were cut by the inner part of Shurikens, which aren't sharp. Thus, Totsuka cuts through any Hachibi tail with the utmost ease. You're grasping at straw dude. There's a clear swining force unless you are suggesting Susano has to stop its entire thrust to change it into a swipe, instead of being able to use the forward momentum to transition into a swipe. Not to mention that the sheer power of Susano would still cut cleanly through any Hachibi tail even at a stationary point, since nothing is implying the Hachibi's tail has the resiliency to stop it.

Obviously susanoo can't begin a sword thrust and then change it to a sword swipe in the middle unless the sword thrust is extremely slow.

Totsuka having no real physical shape is irrelevant to its ability to change from a thrust to a swipe since the momentum of the thrust or swipe comes from susanoo.

Can't tell if trolling or... Susano has some of the greatest strength in the manga, and is pure chakra, meaning it has massive stability. Now a normal human can thrust at a decent speed and transition at a slower speed. A highly trained person can replicate that with ease, since he has the strength to do so. Now we are talking about Susano, something that crushes humans with sheer force, in its lower versions. Something which has utmost stability and no bones restricting its movement. It changes its thrust into a swipe with the lowest of difficulty and you denying it just shows you grasping at straws. Indeed, I was saying that it allows greater room for contact with Hachibi.

If Itachi tries amaterasu, bee retaliates with rapidfire bijuudama and ends itachi.

Once a straw man always a straw man. You are the one who said Bee will fight from a range. To do that, he will have to move away, meaning he turns his back to Itachi. Now he can fire Multiple TBB's without looking at Itachi? Please.. You just proved that he has no way of moving from Itachi in order to create distance, thus it remains a CQC fight.

What in the world does the hachibi's kai not being as instant as bee's mental though process while operating under the affects of normal time = the hachibi doesn't experience reality through the mind of its jinchuriki?

What? Now I am confused. Are you suggesting that if Hachibi also goes into the Tsukiyomi realm, he will somehow be able to Kai himself and thus Bee out of it? That's not how it works buddy, if Hachibi is in the Genjutsu as well, he's as helpless as Bee, both can't Kai each other out. Moreover, Chiyo thought partner method could counter Tsukiyomi, yet Kakashi said it couldn't [

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], so that throws your argument down the drain since Hachibi's perception of time isn't altered in his own subconscious [

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], which is where he breaks Bee out of Genjutsu, which as I already said, took several instant to achieve..... It was explicitly stated that the only thing that works against Tsukiyomi is an Elitist Uchiha by Itachi, thus Kakashi with a Sharingan failed. DB further reinforces this notion claiming that only Elitist Uchiha can break Tsukiyomi. No where is it ever implied that a Perfect Jin can break it, thus there's no reason for me to believe this conjecture. Even Naruto tells Bee that Tsukiyomi would finish him, which isn't necessarily holding, but still adds to my point.

How else would a bijuu experience reality unless through the mind of their jinchuriki? The only alternative argument you could pose is that the bijuu is directly linked with the jinchuriki's eyes, ears, and body and when the sensory organs send messages to the brain of the jinchuriki, it also for and by some inexplicable reason/method sends those messages to the brain of the bijuu as well. Not only that, but if the hachibi didn't experience reality through bee's mind, then it would have snapped bee out of itachi's genjutsu long before bee noticed he was in it since the hachibi would not have been affected by the genjutsu and would have seen bee striking air and talking to air.

They experience through the minds of the Jin, but the subconscious isn't affected by the external world nor is it affected by Genjutsu's affects ie time manipulation, unless you can prove otherwise. So basically, you can't prove that Hachibi goes into the genjutsu, you cannot prove that Hachibi's subconscious, where he breaks Bee out of genjutsu, is affected by Genjutsu's time manipulation nor can you disprove all of the Tsukiyomi implications, which imply only an Elitist Uchiha can defeat Tsukiyomi. All odds are in my favour.

Bee doesn't break the genjutsu, he gets snapped out of it. Breaking the jutsu would be what sasuke did against itachi's tsukuyomi where he battles the genjutsu with his own genjuts prowess and overcomes it. Snapping someone out of a genjutsu has nothing to do with beating the genjutsu with another genjutsu.

Defeating the genjutsu is essentially the same thing as both breaking and snapping it. Either way, Bee doesn't defeat Tsukiyomi, Bee's subconscious isn't time manipulated since it's unaffected by Genjutsu, and there's many things your point is based on which is pure conjecture.

 

[lanakui8]

You keep projecting your own flaws onto me. That's not how it works buddy. Reflect definition


As you can see, what it did was indeed a justifiable reflection. Fix your own believed definition before you tell people to fix theirs.

Was yaata stated to repel any attack or

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Stop wasting my time, you attacking the strawman proves that you've conceded the actual argument of Yaata not reflecting any attack.

Don't be a straw man. My post is clearly based on this scan [

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]. The heading already makes it clear that Yata is the topic at hand. Don't see where this is all coming from, as I clearly indicated the other one was hyperbole. And no, infinite universal or omniversal explosions don't exist in NV, and Yata can only be applied to NV's physicals, so it doesn't counter anything of the like as it wasn't intended to be considered in the first place. So no, mechanical working isn't hyperbole, it's how it actually works and it doesn't get any simpler than that.

Wait why in the world does yaata only apply to NV's physicals? Why draw the line there? Yaata isn't stated to turn back any attack only in NV's physicals, it's stated to turn back any attack PERIOD. IF you want to start taking these no limits hyperbole statements into context, then you take it into context that at the time of the manga, yaata was an extremely powerful defense that could block just about anything just like at the time raikiri was stated to cut through anything, it was an extremely powerful attack that could cut through everything we've seen in the manga.

So no, unless you want to cater to massive double standards you either give yaata its literal hype or you don't.

In addition to that, that mechanics statement in no way shape or form means anything about the power of the mirror. All it tells you is how the mirror blocks attacks, it has nothing to do with the level of attacks that the mirror can block via those mechanics.

Once again, your reading comprehension failure is blatantly obvious (or you simply didn't look at the DB scan which I set forth, which I also suspect). Attributes are changed [

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], and size can be an attribute of the Yata, thus it can change its shape and size. Not to mention that it has already changed both shape and size canonically since it has

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, so there's nothing to debate here. And where exactly was it stated to have been imbued with all 5 natures? It is said to reflect/deflect attacks and nothing implies chakra nature is what is its constituent permitter, as its reflected Snake heads and Kusanagi sword, which don't carry chakra natures. There's grammatical mistakes in this quote which I can't understand (last sentence, clarify). So no, it deflects/reflects attacks because it is exerting a similar attack back at said attack, thus reflecting the attack in whatever context.

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In addition to that, the mechanics that even you gave said nothing about the mirror deflecting or reflecting, and then there's the fact that deflecting =/= reflecting. That just proves that the hype about the mirror being able to deflect or reflect any attack is simply hyperbole as the actual explanation of the mirror has nothing to do with that and the mirror can't both deflect and reflect every attack thrown at it.

Once again, how will tails parry the blade when it slices right through them? Look, it's this simple. Hydra heads aren't being cut by Shurikens. Hachibi tails are extremely easily cut, and were cut by the inner part of Shurikens, which aren't sharp. Thus, Totsuka cuts through any Hachibi tail with the utmost ease. You're grasping at straw dude. There's a clear swining force unless you are suggesting Susano has to stop its entire thrust to change it into a swipe, instead of being able to use the forward momentum to transition into a swipe. Not to mention that the sheer power of Susano would still cut cleanly through any Hachibi tail even at a stationary point, since nothing is implying the Hachibi's tail has the resiliency to stop it.

LIke I already told you in the post you just quoted, if totsuka is going to change from a stab to a swing mid-stab, then it would have to be stabbing at an extremely slow rate, and therefore bee doesn't even have to parry it in that case.

Sheer power of susanoo? Tell me what strength feat of susanoo implies it's on the level of the hachibi?

Can't tell if trolling or... Susano has some of the greatest strength in the manga, and is pure chakra, meaning it has massive stability. Now a normal human can thrust at a decent speed and transition at a slower speed. A highly trained person can replicate that with ease, since he has the strength to do so. Now we are talking about Susano, something that crushes humans with sheer force, in its lower versions. Something which has utmost stability and no bones restricting its movement. It changes its thrust into a swipe with the lowest of difficulty and you denying it just shows you grasping at straws. Indeed, I was saying that it allows greater room for contact with Hachibi.

I've already stated that if susanoo wants to stab extremely slowly, then sure it can change its thrust into a swipe. But if it wants to stab at any speed that's dangerous to Bee, it's not going to be able to turn that into a swipe, it's going to have too much momentum going forward and the timeframe is going to be too short.

Once a straw man always a straw man. You are the one who said Bee will fight from a range. To do that, he will have to move away, meaning he turns his back to Itachi. Now he can fire Multiple TBB's without looking at Itachi? Please.. You just proved that he has no way of moving from Itachi in order to create distance, thus it remains a CQC fight.

Why in the world does bee have to turn his back to itachi in order to move away?

What? Now I am confused. Are you suggesting that if Hachibi also goes into the Tsukiyomi realm, he will somehow be able to Kai himself and thus Bee out of it? That's not how it works buddy, if Hachibi is in the Genjutsu as well, he's as helpless as Bee, both can't Kai each other out. Moreover, Chiyo thought partner method could counter Tsukiyomi, yet Kakashi said it couldn't [

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], so that throws your argument down the drain since Hachibi's perception of time isn't altered in his own subconscious [

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], which is where he breaks Bee out of Genjutsu, which as I already said, took several instant to achieve.....

Reread my argument again. The hachibi perceives the external world through Bee's mind, that doesn't mean that the hachibi is caught in the genjutsu as well, he just perceives the genjutsu world or whatever bee perceives through bee. The hachibi is still able to act independantly within bee, and that's how he snaps bee out of the genjutsu.
Kakashi's statement was obviously talking in the context of people who use normal partner method, not people who share consciousness and subconsciousness and are always connected by chakra.

It was explicitly stated that the only thing that works against Tsukiyomi is an Elitist Uchiha by Itachi, thus Kakashi with a Sharingan failed. DB further reinforces this notion claiming that only Elitist Uchiha can break Tsukiyomi. No where is it ever implied that a Perfect Jin can break it, thus there's no reason for me to believe this conjecture. Even Naruto tells Bee that Tsukiyomi would finish him, which isn't necessarily holding, but still adds to my point.

It was also explicitly stated that genjutsu doesn't work on a perfect jinchuriki, and that statement was made even after Itachi's statement about Tsukuyomi so that destroys your argument about blinding yourself to all logic, ignoring context, and sticking to the literal value of statements in the manga.

Naruto wasn't a perfect jinchuriki and didn't know about partner method, he also stated that amaterasu would be GG for them yet we know that isn't true as well, so his statement in regards to bee has no credibility.

They experience through the minds of the Jin, but the subconscious isn't affected by the external world nor is it affected by Genjutsu's affects ie time manipulation, unless you can prove otherwise. So basically, you can't prove that Hachibi goes into the genjutsu, you cannot prove that Hachibi's subconscious, where he breaks Bee out of genjutsu, is affected by Genjutsu's time manipulation nor can you disprove all of the Tsukiyomi implications, which imply only an Elitist Uchiha can defeat Tsukiyomi. All odds are in my favour.

The subconscious exists within the conscious, and if the concsious is affected by something like slowed down time, the subconscious would be affected by that as well.

Why do I have to prove with 100% certainty those things? Why don't you have to prove the negative of those?

Defeating the genjutsu is essentially the same thing as both breaking and snapping it. Either way, Bee doesn't defeat Tsukiyomi, Bee's subconscious isn't time manipulated since it's unaffected by Genjutsu, and there's many things your point is based on which is pure conjecture.

Nope, defeating the genjutsu is absolutely not being snapped out of it.

Bee's subconscious operates within his conscious and never operates slower than his conscious. IF bee's conscious is operating at 3 days per second, then bee's subconscious is going to be operating at an even faster rate than that.

So nope, literally all the evidence says that Bee > Tsukuyomi, proven by the fact that your arguments have been reduced to simply saying "you can't prove your stance to be 100% true, therefore false" yet not subjecting your own arguments to anything near that kind of absurd criteria.