[Discussion] Kenpachi, Kurotsuchi Mayuri and Byakuya vs Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi

[Killuaa]

lol what? The AoE, speed and stealth of senponzakura has massively increased. And BTW, Bankai Renji is not massively inferior to base Aizen, not at all, he is widely considered to be nearly as strong as him, some actually say stronger (I personally think he is nearly as strong as him).

Personally, I don't see him being any stronger than Bankai Unohana, who I deem weaker than Base Aizen.

Actually Monster Aizen is Dangai Ichigo tiered, Butterfly Aizen is a Tier below. Current Ichigo and Current Kenpachi are both Butterfly Aizen tiered, possibly even higher, as we have not seen the limits of their strength.

What? Cocoon Aizen is weaker than Butterfly Aizen. I don't see Kenpachi beating down a Shikai Urahara, Shikai Isshin and Gauntlets Yoruichi at the same time the same way Cocoon Aizen did. And Butterfly Aizen >> Cocoon Aizen, so you're practically saying that Kenpachi can take like, around 3 Shikai Isshins, 3 Shikai Uraharas and 3 Gauntlet Yoruichis? -.-"

That's practically the power of the whole Gotei 13 captains have, bar Kenpachi himself.

I see Current Kenpachi as Shikai Aizen at best.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

Personally, I don't see him being any stronger than Bankai Unohana, who I deem weaker than Base Aizen.

I agree that Bankai Renji is around Bankai Unohanas level, I disagree that Bankai Unihana is weaker then base Aizen. Btw, when I said base Aizen I meant Shikai, Renji destroys base Aizen as he is better in nearly every aspect bar intelligence.

What? Cocoon Aizen is weaker than Butterfly Aizen. I don't see Kenpachi beating down a Shikai Urahara, Shikai Isshin and Gauntlets Yoruichi at the same time the same way Cocoon Aizen did. And Butterfly Aizen >> Cocoon Aizen, so you're practically saying that Kenpachi can take like, around 3 Shikai Isshins, 3 Shikai Uraharas and 3 Gauntlet Yoruichis? -.-"

Yes, Cacoon Aizen is weaker then Butterfly Aizen, who in turn is weaker then Monster Aizen. I totally see current Kenpachi beating a Shikai Urahara, Shikai Isshin and Gauntlets Yoruichi. They have not shown anything in their arsenal that even comes close to the haxx that is Galaxy Room, which is what it took to do any significant damage to Kenpachi. And they have not shown anything in their arsenal that can defend against Kenpachis Shikai either, which was strong enough to 1 hit KO a meteor the size of seretei. Current Kenpachi should be fully capable of laughing off any attacks they use due to the enourmous gap in Reiatsu that they have tbh.

That's practically the power of the whole Gotei 13 captains have, bar Kenpachi himself.

So your saying. Shikai Urahara + Shikai Isshin + Gauntlets Yoruichi = Shunsui + Joshiro + Komamura + Sui Feng + Hitsugaya + Shinji + Kensei + Rose + Byakuya + Unohana + Mayuri? With all due respect, that's pretty absurd. Shunsui + Current Byakuya is more then enough to match those three in power.

I see Current Kenpachi as Shikai Aizen at best.

That's absolutely ridiculous. He is Two Tiers above Shikai Aizen. He is on Butterfly Aizen's level along with current Ichigo and Yamamoto. And I am being generous when I say that, as all three of those characters are probably stronger then Butterfly Aizen if you took away his immortality aspect.

 

[Killuaa]

Yes, Cacoon Aizen is weaker then Butterfly Aizen, who in turn is weaker then Monster Aizen. I totally see current Kenpachi beating a Shikai Urahara, Shikai Isshin and Gauntlets Yoruichi. They have not shown anything in their arsenal that even comes close to the haxx that is Galaxy Room, which is what it took to do any significant damage to Kenpachi. And they have not shown anything in their arsenal that can defend against Kenpachis Shikai either, which was strong enough to 1 hit KO a meteor the size of seretei. Current Kenpachi should be fully capable of laughing off any attacks they use due to the enourmous gap in Reiatsu that they have tbh.

Umm, I disagree, at the very most, I only see Kenpachi defeating two of the trio. That Getsuga Tensho was impressive to have gotten Cocoon Aizen bloodied up, the same Aizen who took an onslaught from Yoruichi, Shikai Urahara and some other attacks from the three of them, but whatever. I'm tired of debating the strength of those 3 in contrast of the ones who're getting the spotlight post-TS.

So your saying. Shikai Urahara + Shikai Isshin + Gauntlets Yoruichi = Shunsui + Joshiro + Komamura + Sui Feng + Hitsugaya + Shinji + Kensei + Rose + Byakuya + Unohana + Mayuri? With all due respect, that's pretty absurd. Shunsui + Current Byakuya is more then enough to match those three in power.

Current Byakuya is only somewhere around 5x stronger than he was since his shikai is already as strong as his bankai pre-TS. Shikai multiplies up to 5x when in bankai iirc. I see Isshin stomping pre-TS Byakuya, so I disagree again. I see Current Bankai Byakuya still going down by Shikai Isshin alone.

Actually, what I'm saying is, you saying that Kenpachi is Butterfly Aizen level. Butterfly Aizen can take 3 of Isshins, 3 of Uraharas and 3 of Yoruichis and still stomp them. I don't see Kenpachi doing that at all. I see 9 of those as >> Gotei 13 captains (bar Yamamoto and Kenpachi)

That's absolutely ridiculous. He is Two Tiers above Shikai Aizen. He is on Butterfly Aizen's level along with current Ichigo and Yamamoto. And I am being generous when I say that, as all three of those characters are probably stronger then Butterfly Aizen if you took away his immortality aspect.

Whatever you say. I see flaws on Kenpachi being stronger than Shikai Aizen though.

 

[King Kendrick]

i dont know urahaha is pretty op if i not mistaken aizen said his power rivaled his at one point and ulquira ( whatever dont know how to spell it ) also said he would rather not fight him .

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

Umm, I disagree, at the very most, I only see Kenpachi defeating two of the trio. That Getsuga Tensho was impressive to have gotten Cocoon Aizen bloodied up, the same Aizen who took an onslaught from Yoruichi, Shikai Urahara and some other attacks from the three of them, but whatever. I'm tired of debating the strength of those 3 in contrast of the ones who're getting the spotlight post-TS.

The Getsug Tensho won't even be scratching a guy who survived Galaxy Room, which is surviving being in space itself, I don't think you understand the magnitude of pressure that is on a breathing body, especially one that has wounds.

Current Byakuya is only somewhere around 5x stronger than he was since his shikai is already as strong as his bankai pre-TS. Shikai multiplies up to 5x when in bankai iirc. I see Isshin stomping pre-TS Byakuya, so I disagree again. I see Current Bankai Byakuya still going down by Shikai Isshin alone.

His Shikai is as strong as his Bankai Post-TS, big difference. Current Shikai Byakuya beats Shikai Isshin Mid-Diff Diff IMO. Isshin is overrated with is performance against a exhausted Aizen.

Actually, what I'm saying is, you saying that Kenpachi is Butterfly Aizen level. Butterfly Aizen can take 3 of Isshins, 3 of Uraharas and 3 of Yoruichis and still stomp them. I don't see Kenpachi doing that at all. I see 9 of those as >> Gotei 13 captains (bar Yamamoto and Kenpachi)

Butterfly Aizen would not stomp them, if not for his immortality, he would even loose. The only reason why 2 of each of those three would loose, is because they lack the firepower to utterly decimate Butterfly Aizen the way Ichigo did. Current Kenpachi, Current Ichigo and Yamamoto have the firepower (Well I am kind of speculating on Ichigo's part) to do such a thing to Butterfly Aizen. Not only do they lack the firepower but they also lack the Reiatsu.

Even Yama was scared of Kenny's potential, Shikai Aizen gets fodderized.

 

[Killuaa]

The Getsug Tensho won't even be scratching a guy who survived Galaxy Room, which is surviving being in space itself, I don't think you understand the magnitude of pressure that is on a breathing body, especially one that has wounds.

Ummm, no. What other feats do that Galaxy room have? We just know that it's like being in space, but you gotta remember, these aren't normal humans we're talking about. You don't know what their limitations are when it comes to extraterrestrial stuff like that. So, can Ichigo survive it too? Can yama? Kenpachi's feats aren't theirs, therefore you can't say they can just because they're arguably stronger. From that, I can say that you're committing a NLF when it comes to that Gravity Room thing.

His Shikai is as strong as his Bankai Post-TS, big difference. Current Shikai Byakuya beats Shikai Isshin Mid-Diff Diff IMO. Isshin is overrated with is performance against a exhausted Aizen.

How was he exhausted? He started the fight with a fresh Aizen. It seems like you're underestimating Isshin for some reason. He pushed Aizen to his Shinigami limits. It's not like Aizen fought seriously against any of the captains there, he one-shotted them all iirc with his Shikai. Just got hit by one of weakened Yama's kidous, and emerged from it like nothing much happened. From what I've seen, Isshin seemed even stronger than Urahara, Urahara who was said to be equal to Shinigami Aizen.

As for Byakuya, he's only 5x stronger since Shikai only gets stronger 5x when in Bankai and his current Shikai = pre-TS Bankai, so there. It's only 5x. As I said before, I see Shikai Isshin curbstomping pre-TS Bankai Byakuya. So, even post-TS, I still see Shikai Isshin winning, mid diff at most while Byakuya is in Bankai.

Butterfly Aizen would not stomp them, if not for his immortality, he would even loose. The only reason why 2 of each of those three would loose, is because they lack the firepower to utterly decimate Butterfly Aizen the way Ichigo did. Current Kenpachi, Current Ichigo and Yamamoto have the firepower (Well I am kind of speculating on Ichigo's part) to do such a thing to Butterfly Aizen. Not only do they lack the firepower but they also lack the Reiatsu.

Even Yama was scared of Kenny's potential, Shikai Aizen gets fodderized.

Ummm, Kenpachi has firepower? He's all just slash as well, he doesn't have nukes iirc. We seem to be disagreeing with a lot of things. I think Shikai Urahara alone can take Shikai Kenpachi to a high diff fight. People tend to overrate Kenpachi because of his destructive capacity. Yamamoto was scared? He just didn't wanna take a risk because he knew he could be a threat to SS if ever he was to turn his back on SS like that Room 46 guy said to Kyoraku.

You can believe what you want to believe. I'm tired of this argument about Kenpachi. As for me, I only rank him only on Shikai Urahara/Shikai Isshin's league, a bit stronger, and that's it.

This is my last post on this thread regarding this matter since it seems like neither of our minds are going to change about this topic. You may have the last word if you wish.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

He was either taking into account Urahara's featless Bankai, or Urahara with prep, since Urahara came to fight him with prep, or probably both. Matter of fact is, Urahara has not shown the same level of power as any version of Aizen without prep.

He never mention anything about their fight. He just stated, once I was interested in you because we were equal, now even though I'm a lot more powerful you still interest me, because of your mind.

In case that he take into accout Urahara's bankai, there is also his bankai, so it will end either way. Urahara prep time, is not part of power level.

Either way, current Byakuya > base Aizen.

Which Current Byakuya level you are referring to?
If you think Current Byakuya in bankai, yes, I do agree, that he is stronger than Base Aizen, with his shikai, maybe, tho, I really doubt that.. And just to clarify, Base Aizen is without him using shikai.

That's a fallacy. No one has shown the kind of durability and endurance that Zaraki displayed against the Quincy, period. Galaxy Room alone would bring nearly anyone at deaths door, add everything else he tanked, and there is simply no one that comes close.

If that's the case, Zaraki would be strongest character, which I see you don't believe in your below arguments.

In no shape or form was I trying to compare Zarakis intelligence with Uraharas, I am fully aware that Urahara is leagues above Kenpachi in intelligence. However its still an impressive intelligence feat that cannot go unnoticed, and I pointed it out.

Ok, but again it will not prove that Zaraki is smarter than some other character. If that character couldn't do same as Zaraki, than yes, there is no proof that only Zaraki is capable of doing so.

No he wouldn't, that's a ridiculous statement. Current Zaraki literally dwarfs his kid counterpart in Strength, durability, endurance, Reiatsu, speed, intelligence and even has a Shikai to go along with it. Unless you are going to try to claim that Kenpachi hardly improved since he was a kid.

Pre Muken Kenpachi is a way inferior to Kid Zaraki. Kid Zaraki beat Unohana and pre Muken Zaraki was a lot weaker than her. By the end of fight Zaraki was able to surpass Unohana, but Unohana at that time, couldn't just concentrate on fight, she also lost a lot of reiatsu on healing Zaraki and also every time she healed him he was not battle worn, but she was from her previous fight with Zaraki. Current Zaraki is only stronger for Shikai than Kid Zaraki.

The gap between Current Zarakis Reiatsu and his Reiatsu before fighting Unohana is unmeasurable . The gap is as enourmous as the gap between Butterfly Aizen and base Aizen. Urahara's Reiatsu is toddler level compared to Zaraki. Current Zarakis Reiatsu is similar to that of current Ichigo's.

The gap between Urahara and Byakuya from that time is also big. Reiatsu pretty much goes with overall power, that's how power levels of captain is define. Not to mention that battles of shinigamis are battles of reiatsu. Ichigo who at the time had 2 times captain level reiatsu, couldn't put even decent fight against Shinigami Aizen. By Shinigami Aizen statement Urahara is equal to him.

With all due respect, your letting yor bias get in the way of your judgment. Power wise, Current Zaraki is Butterfly Aizen level minus the immortality. Perhaps even stronger depending on how current Ichigo stacks up against Dangai Ichigo. Zaraki would be capable of beating Urahara and Isshin together, even if both where using their Bankais, without taking off his eye patch, the gap is just that big. Everything they throw at him would probably be nullified with his Reiatsu alone.

My explanation of reiatsu is above. Aizen already stated that Urahara's kido is capable of killing any shinigami.

How am i biassed?

It certainly makes a big difference. Otherwise he wouldn't wear it.

I can't buy that argument, because of that. As well that SRDI would need to make a new eye patch for him, which they didn't do. Either it will not make much of a difference, or it will be just one more not good written move by Kubo. Until it is proven to be not good written, I will stick to my statament.

Probably not literally as strong current Ichigo, but he would be capable of giving him a High-Diff fight. I could see Grimmjow being around there level, of course its just an assumption since we know nothing of his current power level. However, the deal that Urahara made with him in exchange for his help was probably to organize a re-match with Ichigo, which hints at his power-level being near Ichigo's.

Just depends on where you see current Ichigo in power level.

He is way stronger then him even now.

No.

No bro, please don't make such ridiculous claims. He was in the same division as Mayuri, they are not fighters, they are scientists. Pre-TS Byakuya was nearly as fast as Yoruichi, who in turn was way faster then Urahara. Now Byakuya has spent time training in the Zero division, while Yoruichi has not even been training to our knowledge, current Byakuya is much faster then Yoruichi, who in turn is much faster then Urahara. Urahara has not shown reflexes that would enable him to dodge Byakuya's blitz.

1. Before he become captain of 12th division, he was 3rd seat of 2nd division ane member of Special force.
2. 12th division, become scientist after Urahara took over, before that they role is unknown.
3. Urahara is scientist, but not alone scientist, that can be seen throught his battles and hype he got.

He lost because his imagination killed himself. His imagination could do nearly anything. Obviously not everything.
Galaxy Room or Meteor soloes anyone that I did not mention.

Mention below?

Yamamoto, yes, Yhwach, yes, Jugram, definitely not, Ichigo, yes, Aizen (Only Butterfly and Up), Kenpachi, yes, Royd definitely not.

Elaborete why Jugarm, Aizen and Royd not?

Urahara, Isshin, Shinigami Aizen all get fodderized, especially Urahara without prep and intel. Uryu I would actually agree, but only with hype of being as strong as Yhwach. Royal Guards are probably slightly weaker, since Jugram would at least be RG level (Otherwise there would be no point of bringing him along) and Gremmy is stronger then Jugram.

How is Gremmy stronger than Jugram? and of the other guards, as well that combination of RG are stronger than Gotei.. Gremmy would be in illusion before he even realise that he is fighting Aizen. Considering that both Urahara and Isshin are comparable to Aizen, they win as well.

Askin and Pepe where literally shitting their pants, and they themselves admitted to be weaker.Yoruichi was slightly stronger then Sui Feng, who is a Low-Tier Captain. She gets fodderized.

No, Pepe never was 'shitting his pants'. Askin did, but that wasn't not 'shitting his pants' it was just sweating, on top of that that goes with Askin's personallity.. He left when Mayuri appeared, so does the guy who was called monster, could possible lost to Mayuri?

Yoruichi at that time didn't use her shikai nor bankai. She was not fighting for 100 years and wasn't in the form, first time she got serious, she literally one shoted Sui Feng.

The problem in your argument is that you underrate both Gremmy and Kenpachi and severely overrate Urahara. Urahara was even scared of a severally injured Quilge, how can he possibly compete with the characters you are mentioning?

Or you are the one who overrated them.

1. Quilge is very strong by himself.
2. He took Urahara while the latter was not using even shikai,
3. He took Urahara while he was off guard,
4. He attacked Urahara from the back.
5. The attack didn't even put much more than a scretch on Urahara, even though all above.

How was Urahara scared of Quilge..?

 

[Shiroyasha]

Of intelligence.



Well lets see, he has the most powerful attack in the manga so far, I don't think we can argue that. He also has the best durability and endurance in the manga so far, considering he tanked an

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and finally Meninas

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until he was finally down for the count. I don't Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi bringing anything more powerful then galaxy room alone, let alone all the other things he tanked. But lets continue, he was fast enough to blitz Gremmy before he can imagine things

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, and it only takes the brain mili seconds to think of something btw. In terms of reiatsu, Zaraki dwarfs Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi, there is no question about that, he has yet to take off his eye patch and yet he is called a monster by even the likes of Gremmy. Despite his looks and attitude, he was actually smart enough to pick up on Gremmys abilities on two different instances

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and

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, Gremmy even commends him for figuring it out in the first instance. And there there is even hype that he is on Current Ichigo's level, firstly, the fact that Gremmy is supposedly the strongest Quincy and he beat him without even taking off his eye patch, secondly, the fact that supposedly Kenpachi's full strength is not something even the Gotei 13 can control, thirdly, a kid Kenpachi beat Prime Unohana with a random sword, and lastly,

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. I think you are severally underestimating Kenpachi, he should be around current Ichigo's level (Grimmjow will probably also be around that level of strength when we see him battling, hopefully Bazz B). With all that said, without prep, he should be fully capable of beating Urahara, Yoruichi and Shikai Isshin without even taking off his eye patch.



The AoE of his Shikai is not something a Non-Fighter type like Urahara can deal with. Its been well established that with enough prep and intel, characters like Mayuri and Urahara can beat nearly any character in the Bleach verse, but without prep, they are not all that threatening as fighters (At least until we see Urahara's Bankai, if we do). I actually think Byakuya could straight up blitz Urahara. As Urahara has never really shown overly impressive speed while Byakuya is one of e fastest characters in all of Bleach.



His imagination can do everything though, just like Gaara's sand, its one power that opens up to countless possibilities. Gremmy is the Top 5 strongest characters in the manga so far going off of feats, so saying he is not that impressive is way too bold of a move. Only the likes of Yamamoto, Current Ichigo, Kenpachi and Juha Bach can beat him (And Aizen infused with the Hogyoku) are stronger then him.

LOL There's no freaking way that he's as strong as Current Ichigo. If that's the case, then why is Ichigo #1 on the SWP List? Why do you think 8 sternritter are all fighting over him?? They could have easily ganged up and killed Kenpachi, but they didn't. And why is that? Because they're not interested in him. Kenpachi is strong, but as strong as Ichigo? Not even close.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

Ummm, no. What other feats do that Galaxy room have? We just know that it's like being in space, but you gotta remember, these aren't normal humans we're talking about. You don't know what their limitations are when it comes to extraterrestrial stuff like that. So, can Ichigo survive it too? Can yama? Kenpachi's feats aren't theirs, therefore you can't say they can just because they're arguably stronger. From that, I can say that you're committing a NLF when it comes to that Gravity Room thing.

Do you know what a NLF is? Because ironically you are the one that is doing it. Show me feats that dictate that Ichigo and Yamamoto can survive being inside that room as well as Kenpachi did. If you can't, then they can't.

How was he exhausted? He started the fight with a fresh Aizen. It seems like you're underestimating Isshin for some reason. He pushed Aizen to his Shinigami limits. It's not like Aizen fought seriously against any of the captains there, he one-shotted them all iirc with his Shikai. Just got hit by one of weakened Yama's kidous, and emerged from it like nothing much happened. From what I've seen, Isshin seemed even stronger than Urahara, Urahara who was said to be equal to Shinigami Aizen.

Fresh Aizen? Is that a joke? The guy just took on half of Gotei 13 and the Vizards, as well as captain commander, you can't seriously claim that Aizen was fresh. I could name plenty of people who are stronger then Urahara, that's not an impressive feat, the same guy who was scared of a nearly dead Quilge.

As for Byakuya, he's only 5x stronger since Shikai only gets stronger 5x when in Bankai and his current Shikai = pre-TS Bankai, so there. It's only 5x. As I said before, I see Shikai Isshin curbstomping pre-TS Bankai Byakuya. So, even post-TS, I still see Shikai Isshin winning, mid diff at most while Byakuya is in Bankai.

No, Byakuya's current Shikai = Post-TS Bankai , why are you trying to downplay him. Shikai Isshin could beat SS Byakuya Easy-Diff, end of Pre-TS Byakuya Mid-Diff. Post-TS Byakuya High-Diff and Current Byakuya would win Mid-Diff.

Ummm, Kenpachi has firepower? He's all just slash as well, he doesn't have nukes iirc. We seem to be disagreeing with a lot of things. I think Shikai Urahara alone can take Shikai Kenpachi to a high diff fight. People tend to overrate Kenpachi because of his destructive capacity. Yamamoto was scared? He just didn't wanna take a risk because he knew he could be a threat to SS if ever he was to turn his back on SS like that Room 46 guy said to Kyoraku.

His slash is far stronger then any other characters slash. It destroyed a meteor the size of seretei in a single slash. Nothing else compares to that. Isshin wouldn't even be able to defend against something of that magnitude.

I am getting tired of the Urahara bias here, this is a guy that was

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of a severely injured Quilge, his fighting capabilities are about as strong as Mayuri's without prep. Which is Low-Captain Tier. Kenpachi literally Reiatsu crushes Urahara, he destroys him No-Diff. No one overrates him, most people have the general consensus that Current Kenpachi is Yamamotos level, so far, there have only been two people that think Urahara could actually stand a chance against him, I think you should re-think your stance on him, as you are severally underrating him.

Yes the 46 room guy said that, and it was said that all of Gotei 13 wouldn't be able to control him at full power, implying he was stronger then all of them combined. How can you overrate a attack that destroys a meteor anyway? He essentially destroyed all of seretei with one slash. That's easily Bankai Yamamoto level.

You can believe what you want to believe. I'm tired of this argument about Kenpachi. As for me, I only rank him only on Shikai Urahara/Shikai Isshin's league, a bit stronger, and that's it.

Well all I can say is that's ridiculous.

He never mention anything about their fight. He just stated, once I was interested in you because we were equal, now even though I'm a lot more powerful you still interest me, because of your mind.

In case that he take into accout Urahara's bankai, there is also his bankai, so it will end either way. Urahara prep time, is not part of power level.

I got curious of this and I went to check it out myself, and it seems you added in one crucial word that changes the whole context. His exact words where:

"Even though we may not be equal in power, you are still of interest to me"

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He never says anymore , which means he can stronger then Urahara from the start. Which feats support. Urahara was scared of Quilge on his deathbed, Urahara's fighting capabilities without prep, are on par with hose of Mayuri's without prep.

Which Current Byakuya level you are referring to?
If you think Current Byakuya in bankai, yes, I do agree, that he is stronger than Base Aizen, with his shikai, maybe, tho, I really doubt that.. And just to clarify, Base Aizen is without him using shikai.

Base Byakuya is stronger then base Aizen. Shikai Byakuya is stronger then Shikai Aizen, Bankai Byakuya is a tier above Shikai Aizen by hype (since we have not seen his Bankai yet).

If that's the case, Zaraki would be strongest character, which I see you don't believe in your below arguments.

Does durability = Overall Power? Not in my books, just because he has the greatest durability does not make him the strongest.

Ok, but again it will not prove that Zaraki is smarter than some other character. If that character couldn't do same as Zaraki, than yes, there is no proof that only Zaraki is capable of doing so.

Doesn't matter, if Zaraki can do it then he can do it, someone else having a higher intelligence then him won't change that.

Pre Muken Kenpachi is a way inferior to Kid Zaraki. Kid Zaraki beat Unohana and pre Muken Zaraki was a lot weaker than her. By the end of fight Zaraki was able to surpass Unohana, but Unohana at that time, couldn't just concentrate on fight, she also lost a lot of reiatsu on healing Zaraki and also every time she healed him he was not battle worn, but she was from her previous fight with Zaraki. Current Zaraki is only stronger for Shikai than Kid Zaraki.

Absolutely wrong. Kenpachi was technically stronger then Kid Kenpachi all the time, he just suppressed this power, his strength massively improved, his speed massively improved, his durability massively improved, his intelligence massively improved, his endurance massively improved, but he suppressed the improvement until he fought Unohana. Once he did, all his power that he suppressed inside himself since being a kid awakened. And thus, he became like ten times stronger then his kid counterpart, if not more.

The gap between Urahara and Byakuya from that time is also big. Reiatsu pretty much goes with overall power, that's how power levels of captain is define. Not to mention that battles of shinigamis are battles of reiatsu. Ichigo who at the time had 2 times captain level reiatsu, couldn't put even decent fight against Shinigami Aizen. By Shinigami Aizen statement Urahara is equal to him.

Urahara was never stronger then Byakuya tbh, even SS Byakuya is stronger then Urahara. Current Byakuya simply fodderizes him. Byakuya's Reiatsu is far greater then Uraharas anyways. Aizen never said such a thing, you did not read his statement correctly.

My explanation of reiatsu is above. Aizen already stated that Urahara's kido is capable of killing any shinigami.

Of course Kido is capable of killing any Shinigami, assuming the Shinigami just stands in one spot and takes it all.

How am i biassed?

Saying that Urahara is even on the same tier as current Kenpachi is being biased, let alone stronger then him. Urahara was scared of Quilge. Urahara was portrayed as Mayuri Tiered in combat, they are essentially equal, you said yourself Mayuri without prep is Low-Captain Tier, so Urahara would be the same.

No.

But he is......even Quilge is stronger then Urahara.

1. Before he become captain of 12th division, he was 3rd seat of 2nd division ane member of Special force.
2. 12th division, become scientist after Urahara took over, before that they role is unknown.
3. Urahara is scientist, but not alone scientist, that can be seen throught his battles and hype he got.

Do you know who is a Vice-Captain of the 2nd division? A fodder who is hardly even fast. Urahara is a scientist, and in battle, he does the same thing as Mayuri, using different inventions in battle, and occasionally Kido here and there. He has been portrayed as weak, he cannot even deal with Quilge without Ichigo's help, he was basically asking for mercy.

Elaborete why Jugarm, Aizen and Royd not?

Gremmy was said to be the strongest Quincy, even the other Quincy feared him and Askin said that they should have gang up on him to take him down when they had the chance. The only exception is Juha Bach for obvious reasons. So Royd and Jugram are out. Aizen has simply shown nothing that would put him on the same tier as Gremmy, nothing more needs to be said.

How is Gremmy stronger than Jugram? and of the other guards, as well that combination of RG are stronger than Gotei.. Gremmy would be in illusion before he even realise that he is fighting Aizen. Considering that both Urahara and Isshin are comparable to Aizen, they win as well.

Do you know who else was hyped to be stronger then the Gotei 13? Full power Kenpachi, do you know who gave him a High-Diff battle? Gremmy. Gremmy only needs to imagine Aizen in a big blob of water, drop him down into the ground and close the ground like he did with Kenpachi, Aizen does not have the same level of destructiveness as Kenpachi so that would kill him. Or Gremmy drops a meteor. Or Gremmy destroys him with Galaxy Room. There are a lot of different options to beat Shikai Aizen.

No, Pepe never was 'shitting his pants'. Askin did, but that wasn't not 'shitting his pants' it was just sweating, on top of that that goes with Askin's personallity.. He left when Mayuri appeared, so does the guy who was called monster, could possible lost to Mayuri?

Does not matter, they agreed that Gremmy was a monster that all the Quincy should have gangbanged, no Quincy ever denied Gremmy that he was the strongest, because they where all scared of him.

Yoruichi at that time didn't use her shikai nor bankai. She was not fighting for 100 years and wasn't in the form, first time she got serious, she literally one shoted Sui Feng.

She used her strongest technique, and Sui Feng did not use her Bankai either. Now Sui Feng has the same technique that Yoruichi did fully mastered.

Or you are the one who overrated them.

I don't, because 90% of other people on different forums that I have seen agree of their standing.

1. Quilge is very strong by himself.

He was one of the weaker Quincy actually.

2. He took Urahara while the latter was not using even shikai,

Urahara was scared shitless, he could have used Shikai or even Bankai and he knew it, but he was scared nevertheless.

3. He took Urahara while he was off guard,

Lol what? He turned towards him and basically said your next, and Urahara was like "no.....wait wait".

How was Urahara scared of Quilge..?

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.

Face it, Urahara is not as strong as you want him to be, I myself love the character, but that does not mean I will try and convince myself that he is ubber strong, because he's not.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

LOL There's no freaking way that he's as strong as Current Ichigo. If that's the case, then why is Ichigo #1 on the SWP List? Why do you think 8 sternritter are all fighting over him?? They could have easily ganged up and killed Kenpachi, but they didn't. And why is that? Because they're not interested in him. Kenpachi is strong, but as strong as Ichigo? Not even close.

He is nearly as strong as current Ichigo. Yamamoto was not even on the list by the way. How is the fact that 8 Sternritter wanted to kill him first prove anything? If anything, that only makes your point worse, since no Sternritter wanted to mess with Gremmy, and Gremmy called Kenpachi a monster. The four girls came to fight Kenpachi after he fought with Gremmy, and they in turn also called him a monster. Even as far as portrayal goes, Kenpachi could give Ichigo a High-Diff fight.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

I got curious of this and I went to check it out myself, and it seems you added in one crucial word that changes the whole context. His exact words where:

"Even though we may not be equal in power, you are still of interest to me"

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He never says anymore , which means he can stronger then Urahara from the start. Which feats support. Urahara was scared of Quilge on his deathbed, Urahara's fighting capabilities without prep, are on par with hose of Mayuri's without prep.

By internet translation. I'm holding official, volume translation in my hands, if you want, i will show you.

True, he didn't say 'anymore', but he said something very similar 'no longer'.

I think that all debate about that should end here. Feats don't support much, I can go and the only thing that Aizen is better is Zanpakuto ability, which as we saw can be countered.

Base Byakuya is stronger then base Aizen. Shikai Byakuya is stronger then Shikai Aizen, Bankai Byakuya is a tier above Shikai Aizen by hype (since we have not seen his Bankai yet).

Not really. RR Shikai Byakuya is strong as Pre RR Shikai Bankai, Shikai Shunsui is already stronger than Pre RR Bankai Byakuya, so I doubt that Current Shikai Byakuya would be even equal with Shunsui. Just to remaind you, that Shikai Shunsui was defeated by Shikai Aizen.

Doesn't matter, if Zaraki can do it then he can do it, someone else having a higher intelligence then him won't change that.

Yes. But the point is Zaraki's intelligence agaisnt inteligence of other people. I just say that his 'feat' don't make him look good compared to others.

Absolutely wrong. Kenpachi was technically stronger then Kid Kenpachi all the time, he just suppressed this power, his strength massively improved, his speed massively improved, his durability massively improved, his intelligence massively improved, his endurance massively improved, but he suppressed the improvement until he fought Unohana. Once he did, all his power that he suppressed inside himself since being a kid awakened. And thus, he became like ten times stronger then his kid counterpart, if not more.

I can agree to some extent. But 10 times? No. In the end Adult Zaraki (without Shikai) just barely surpassed Unohana. On top of that Unohana at the time when she fought kid Zaraki, didn't have to heal him every time.

Urahara was never stronger then Byakuya tbh, even SS Byakuya is stronger then Urahara. Current Byakuya simply fodderizes him. Byakuya's Reiatsu is far greater then Uraharas anyways. Aizen never said such a thing, you did not read his statement correctly.

Just no man. Yes he did..

Of course Kido is capable of killing any Shinigami, assuming the Shinigami just stands in one spot and takes it all.

???

Saying that Urahara is even on the same tier as current Kenpachi is being biased, let alone stronger then him. Urahara was scared of Quilge. Urahara was portrayed as Mayuri Tiered in combat, they are essentially equal, you said yourself Mayuri without prep is Low-Captain Tier, so Urahara would be the same.

Just look around you and see what people talking about Zaraki's power. So that see who is biased.

But he is......even Quilge is stronger then Urahara.

Do you know who is a Vice-Captain of the 2nd division? A fodder who is hardly even fast. Urahara is a scientist, and in battle, he does the same thing as Mayuri, using different inventions in battle, and occasionally Kido here and there. He has been portrayed as weak, he cannot even deal with Quilge without Ichigo's help, he was basically asking for mercy.

Urahara while 3rd seat, was already comparable to captain level, that can be seen by his promotion. You are the one who 'portray' him as weak.

Ikkaku pissed his pants when he heard Urahara name, same Ikkaku that was like **** off Mayuri. Aizen sure don't think like that..

Gremmy was said to be the strongest Quincy, even the other Quincy feared him and Askin said that they should have gang up on him to take him down when they had the chance. The only exception is Juha Bach for obvious reasons. So Royd and Jugram are out. Aizen has simply shown nothing that would put him on the same tier as Gremmy, nothing more needs to be said.

It wasn't said that Gremmy is strongest Quincy. Gremmy said that he is strongest Quincy. We had one espada, who said that he is strongest (cough Nnoitra cough), but we know that he didn't even end in top 5 strongest espadas.

Jugram is leader of all SR. If Gremmy is strongest, why didn't Yhwach take him to the RR, instead of Jugram.

Jugram was already been portrayed as Quincy who is strong enough to be next emperor and take Yhwach's position also he and Yhwach are different sides of the same coin.

Just for the fact that Askin see Jugram as next emperor, and that same Askin put Gremmy in the same tier as him and Pepe tell as a lot.

Do you know who else was hyped to be stronger then the Gotei 13? Full power Kenpachi, do you know who gave him a High-Diff battle? Gremmy. Gremmy only needs to imagine Aizen in a big blob of water, drop him down into the ground and close the ground like he did with Kenpachi, Aizen does not have the same level of destructiveness as Kenpachi so that would kill him. Or Gremmy drops a meteor. Or Gremmy destroys him with Galaxy Room. There are a lot of different options to beat Shikai Aizen.

1. Never happened.
2. And than Gremmy realise that the battle are over, since Aizen alredy activated KS, the only chance to defeat Aizen is to counter KS, Gremmy is not really smart and don't know a way to do so.

Does not matter, they agreed that Gremmy was a monster that all the Quincy should have gangbanged, no Quincy ever denied Gremmy that he was the strongest, because they where all scared of him.

Ulq never denied that Nnoitra isn't strongest Espada. Does that mean that Nnoitra is strongest?

She used her strongest technique, and Sui Feng did not use her Bankai either. Now Sui Feng has the same technique that Yoruichi did fully mastered.

Yoruichi didn't have full control over it.

I don't, because 90% of other people on different forums that I have seen agree of their standing.

I can say same, Bleach Asylum, dude.

He was one of the weaker Quincy actually.

Not really.

Urahara was scared shitless, he could have used Shikai or even Bankai and he knew it, but he was scared nevertheless.

Lol what? He turned towards him and basically said your next, and Urahara was like "no.....wait wait".

You jumed and made assumption to early. Urahara didn't said "wait" because he feared Quilge, he said that because he used new mysterios technique and traped Ichigo..

Face it, Urahara is not as strong as you want him to be, I myself love the character, but that does not mean I will try and convince myself that he is ubber strong, because he's not.

Face that? Best Kido user in series, most briliant mind, equal to Aizen. I think you are the one who should face it. U_U

 

[Forbidden Tale]

He is nearly as strong as current Ichigo. Yamamoto was not even on the list by the way. How is the fact that 8 Sternritter wanted to kill him first prove anything? If anything, that only makes your point worse, since no Sternritter wanted to mess with Gremmy, and Gremmy called Kenpachi a monster. The four girls came to fight Kenpachi after he fought with Gremmy, and they in turn also called him a monster. Even as far as portrayal goes, Kenpachi could give Ichigo a High-Diff fight.

Yamamoto was not SWP since he become soft, not because he isn't strong.

Gremmy and 4 Femritters defeated Zaraki.
Pepe = comparable to Gremmy + 4 femritters + 3 more SR. it just show much Ichigo is ahead Zaraki.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

Yamamoto was not SWP since he become soft, not because he isn't strong.

He was not on the list, period. Which means that the list does not nessesarily determine ones strength.

Gremmy and 4 Femritters defeated Zaraki.
Pepe = comparable to Gremmy + 4 femritters + 3 more SR. it just show much Ichigo is ahead Zaraki.

Pepe is in no way comparable to Gremmy. Every Sternritter was scared of him, I don't know why you don't understand that, not only does Pepe lack the feats to suggest he is anywhere near Gremmy, but he also lacks the hype. Ichigo did not even battle those 8 Sternritters, he simply avoided all their basic attacks ( Key word, Basic). Zaraki is around the same level of power as Current Ichigo going off of hype, by feats, he is obviously better since Ichigo hardly has any feats yet.

Pepe even says he does not want to be caught in the cross fire between Gremmy and Zaraki and claims he was too dangerous to let out. Saying Pepe is comparable to Gremmy is come potent baseless.

By internet translation. I'm holding official, volume translation in my hands, if you want, i will show you.

True, he didn't say 'anymore', but he said something very similar 'no longer'.

In the official translation, he says "we may no longer be comparable in power", he still does not say equal in power.

I think that all debate about that should end here. Feats don't support much, I can go and the only thing that Aizen is better is Zanpakuto ability, which as we saw can be countered.

The only thing that Urahara is better in is intelligence, and no by much. Their Kido is roughly the same, Aizen has far better speed, skill and strength and a far better Shikai.

Not really. RR Shikai Byakuya is strong as Pre RR Shikai Bankai, Shikai Shunsui is already stronger than Pre RR Bankai Byakuya, so I doubt that Current Shikai Byakuya would be even equal with Shunsui. Just to remaind you, that Shikai Shunsui was defeated by Shikai Aizen.

Do to really think that only his Shikai and Bankai have improved? Was Renji's Shikai and Bankai the only thing that improved? Last time I checked, all his physical attributes (Speed, durability and strength) all massively improved.

Yes. But the point is Zaraki's intelligence agaisnt inteligence of other people. I just say that his 'feat' don't make him look good compared to others.

No that's not the point, the point of the intelligence feat is too show that Zaraki is fully capable in terms of intelligence.

I can agree to some extent. But 10 times? No. In the end Adult Zaraki (without Shikai) just barely surpassed Unohana. On top of that Unohana at the time when she fought kid Zaraki, didn't have to heal him every time.

No, Adult Zaraki (Without Shikai) greatly surpassed Unohana. Once he finally got his power back he almost effortlessly killed her.

Just no man. Yes he did..

Show me feats that support your argument. And no he did not, he said "No longer Comparable", comparable is not equal.

???

What was not clear?

Just look around you and see what people talking about Zaraki's power. So that see who is biased.

Only two people have said he is Shikai Aizen level and another simply said he is not as strong as Current Ichigo (Who is still way stronger then Shikai Aizen).

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is a thread dedicated to the topic. Like 2-3 people said he was Shikai Aizen level, the majority said he was around Butterfly Aizen level and like 2-3 people said he stomps any version of Aizen. So no, I am not the biased one here.

Urahara while 3rd seat, was already comparable to captain level, that can be seen by his promotion. You are the one who 'portray' him as weak.

Ikkaku pissed his pants when he heard Urahara name, same Ikkaku that was like **** off Mayuri. Aizen sure don't think like that..

Of course, no one had heard of Urahara in years, and he was surely surprised. Mayuri cannot do anything to him and he knows it, since that would start a war between divisions.

It wasn't said that Gremmy is strongest Quincy. Gremmy said that he is strongest Quincy. We had one espada, who said that he is strongest (cough Nnoitra cough), but we know that he didn't even end in top 5 strongest espadas.

Except no one ever supported Nnoitra's claim, meanwhile, we had 3 Sternritters who had all said that he was a monster (Pepe, Askin and Catnipp). Gremmy was literally locked up because they where scared of his power, no one ever opposed him being the strongest, you can't go around ignoring those facts. Gremmy was the strongest Quincy bar the emperor Yhwach, this is a fact in terms of both portrayal and feats.

Jugram is leader of all SR. If Gremmy is strongest, why didn't Yhwach take him to the RR, instead of Jugram.

Because Gremmy is a psychopath monster who would not mind killing Juha Bach himself while Jugram is by far the most loyal and level headed Sternritter, fitting to be second in command.

Jugram was already been portrayed as Quincy who is strong enough to be next emperor and take Yhwach's position also he and Yhwach are different sides of the same coin.

Already explained. He is a perfect leader, all the Sternritters like him, even Bazz B, literally no one likes Gremmy, becuase they are all scared of him.

Just for the fact that Askin see Jugram as next emperor, and that same Askin put Gremmy in the same tier as him and Pepe tell as a lot

.

Askin likes Jugram, and he is scared of Gremmy. He never put him in the same tier as himself, he said that he wants to be as far away from him as possible, and Pepe agreed.

1. Never happened.
2. And than Gremmy realise that the battle are over, since Aizen alredy activated KS, the only chance to defeat Aizen is to counter KS, Gremmy is not really smart and don't know a way to do so.

1. The person had said that if he becomes more powerful it will be impossible to stop him if he starts a revolt, in other words, Gotei 13 would not be able to stop him. And then follows up with Yamamoto feared this very thing.
2. That's utterly false, lol you seriously think that the only one to beat Aizen is to counter KS? If he dropped a meteor it would not matter wether he is under KS or not, since its sheer size would hit Aizen either way. Also, Gremmy can make living people, who could imagine that his senses are back to normal, since the living people/clones that he creates will not be under the effect of KS.

Ulq never denied that Nnoitra isn't strongest Espada. Does that mean that Nnoitra is strongest?

Ulquiorra was not scared of Nnoitra's power either, Ulquiorra was not paranoid to the point that would have wanted to surprise attack Nnoitra with the other Espeda because of how dangerous he was. And lastly, Ulquiorra actually has feats that put him above Nnoitra.

Yoruichi didn't have full control over it.

But Sui Feng now does.

I can say same, Bleach Asylum, dude.

Show me some threads involving Gremmy and Current Kenpachi on that forum like how I showed you a thread with Kenpachi vs Aizen forms and we will see.

Not really.

Pretty much. Mask De Masculine was a average Quincy, Quilge was not stronger then Mask.

You jumed and made assumption to early. Urahara didn't said "wait" because he feared Quilge, he said that because he used new mysterios technique and traped Ichigo..

lol what? He said "wait" long after Quilge trapped Ichigo, he said "wait" because Quilge was about to kill him and Orihime and he couldn't do anything about it, and then Grimmjow came, one shotted Quilge and blitzed Urahara. Its all in the panels, there is nothing you can deny here. He is weaker then Quilge in combat, period.

Face that? Best Kido user in series, most briliant mind, equal to Aizen. I think you are the one who should face it. U_U

No he's not, Tessei and Hachi are better, Aizen is around the same. I agree that he is the smartest character in the series, but that's about it. He is comparable to Aizen, in no shape or form does not mean he is equal to Aizen. There is nothing I should face, Urahara is one of my favourites, but I am fully capable of saying he is not even as strong as Quilge, because I don't let Bias get in the way of my judgment.

 

[Killuaa]

Do you know what a NLF is? Because ironically you are the one that is doing it. Show me feats that dictate that Ichigo and Yamamoto can survive being inside that room as well as Kenpachi did. If you can't, then they can't.

Well, to be fair, I just found out that a normal human can survive being out in space, unprotected, for more than 1 minute. Most of these Bleach characters aren't normal humans, so I doubt surviving in space would really be a great feat treated with a high value.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

Well, to be fair, I just found out that a normal human can survive being out in space, unprotected, for more than 1 minute. Most of these Bleach characters aren't normal humans, so I doubt surviving in space would really be a great feat treated with a high value.

Actually only 30 seconds. The difference is that in Bleach it was depicted that space crushes organs (By Gremmy himself), so its not exactly like real life. You could tell that the pressure was immense as Zarakis eye started to 'pop' and his organs where rupturing in his body. Yet he still managed to survive this and continue fighting, despite all the other things he tanked.

Btw forbidden tale, lets agree to disagree, I am done on the subject.

 

[Killuaa]

Actually only 30 seconds. The difference is that in Bleach it was depicted that space crushes organs (By Gremmy himself), so its not exactly like real life. You could tell that the pressure was immense as Zarakis eye started to 'pop' and his organs where rupturing in his body. Yet he still managed to survive this and continue fighting, despite all the other things he tanked.

Btw forbidden tale, lets agree to disagree, I am done on the subject.

No, an average human can survive up to 1 minute and 30 seconds based on NASA. After two minutes, then the person will start dying. It doesn't really matter, since as you've said, this is a fictional series. But from the real space, you can get the idea that the attack is not really that destructive. We don't know how that compares to any other attacks in the series.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

No, an average human can survive up to 1 minute and 30 seconds based on NASA. After two minutes, then the person will start dying. It doesn't really matter, since as you've said, this is a fictional series. But from the real space, you can get the idea that the attack is not really that destructive. We don't know how that compares to any other attacks in the series.

Well we seen fluids comeing from zaraki eye balls an mouth so I'm guessing yea that attack was very deadly.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

No, an average human can survive up to 1 minute and 30 seconds based on NASA. After two minutes, then the person will start dying. It doesn't really matter, since as you've said, this is a fictional series. But from the real space, you can get the idea that the attack is not really that destructive. We don't know how that compares to any other attacks in the series.

Link this information, I have done my research, and its 30 seconds tops.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Pepe is in no way comparable to Gremmy. Every Sternritter was scared of him, I don't know why you don't understand that, not only does Pepe lack the feats to suggest he is anywhere near Gremmy, but he also lacks the hype. Ichigo did not even battle those 8 Sternritters, he simply avoided all their basic attacks ( Key word, Basic). Zaraki is around the same level of power as Current Ichigo going off of hype, by feats, he is obviously better since Ichigo hardly has any feats yet.

He lacks feats, but his hype is above Gremmy. I will not force you to believe in this, myself, I don't have proof to say that he is stronger than Gremmy, but there is no much evidence about Gremmy being stronger than Pepe either.

Pepe even says he does not want to be caught in the cross fire between Gremmy and Zaraki and claims he was too dangerous to let out. Saying Pepe is comparable to Gremmy is come potent baseless.

You saw the thone Pepe was talking, same with Askin. Askin is lazy persona and I would say that his statament isn't serious. Starrk didn't ming Barragan boosing him around, even though Starrk is higher ranked than Barry and is stronger than him. Similar situation is here. Askin seems like a lazy person.
I can make parallel with Kizaru (from One Piece) he said that commanders are fearsome, but during the fight he they were defeated rather easily one by one.

In the official translation, he says "we may no longer be comparable in power", he still does not say equal in power.

Comparable would mean around equal. Either way, I don't know what you refer to say official translation when you say that, I'm holding volume in my hands and it clearly say we were equal.

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The only thing that Urahara is better in is intelligence, and no by much. Their Kido is roughly the same, Aizen has far better speed, skill and strength and a far better Shikai.

Shinigami Aizen vs. Urahara

Hakuda: Shinigami Aizen has no hand to hand demonstrations. Urahara being one of the top officers in the 2nd division means he is proficient at the use of hand to hand combat. Urahara being chosen as the Maggot Nest Guardian and Commander of the Detention Unit, means that Urahara is one the most skilled Hakuda users around. It is not about whether Urahara handled fodders or not, his status in the Omnitskido is a direct reference to his top tier skill in said category.

Aizen 0 : Urahara 1

Shunpo: Shinigami Aizen speed blitzed SS Bankai Hitsugaya & FKT Bankai Ichigo. Urahara speed blitzed unreleased Yammy and Hogyoku Aizen. Not only was Hogyoku Aizen unaware when Urahara switched with the fake Gigai, but noticed Urahara until the latter was behind him. The speed and precision it takes to switch with the fake Gigai is of high skill. Urahara pulling such a move against Hogyoku Aizen infers to his confidence in his top tier speed.

Aizen 0 : Urahara 2

Zanjutsu: Bleehhhhh. Tie. (It appears that the whole Zanjutsu concept doesn't even exist. One day, Ichigo is a noob. The next, he's an ambidextrous user.)

Intelligence: By Aizen's admittance.

Aizen 0 : Urahara 3

Physical Power/Endurance: It is unclear whether Aizen stopped SS Bankai Ichigo & FKT Bankai Komamura's strikes with raw physicality or via reatsu difference (I am of the opinion that it was through reatsu difference) - Urahara took for granted an attack by Hogyoku Aizen and quite literally shrugged it off and proceeded with his Kido activation. Nor did the damage inflicted on Urahara appear to affect him afterwards. Again, Urahara's confidence in taking on an attack by Hogyoku Aizen just in order to proceed with a Kido marks his high physical power/endurance.

Aizen 0 : Urahara 4

Kidou: Aizen's Kidous used so far (Danku and #90) Urahara's Kidous (#91 - creates/modifies his own; seals, kamikaze reatsu handcuffs..)

Aizen 0 : Urahara 5

Zanpakto ability: Aizen's Kyoka appears to be much more effective. Although, Urahara's Zanpakto is very versatile (defensive, offensive and all other shenanigans)

Aizen 1 : Urahara 5

This is just by using feats, not to mention that for the most time Urahara is keeping out of battles, and that Aizen had much more screen time to show his abilities, but he is still inferior to Urahara.

Do to really think that only his Shikai and Bankai have improved? Was Renji's Shikai and Bankai the only thing that improved? Last time I checked, all his physical attributes (Speed, durability and strength) all massively improved.

Yes, but main weapon is zanpakuto, others would give him boost in power, I can elaborate to you, why current Byakuya shouldn't be stronger than Renji.

No that's not the point, the point of the intelligence feat is too show that Zaraki is fully capable in terms of intelligence.

Yes, but that still will not help him against more inteligent characters than him.

No, Adult Zaraki (Without Shikai) greatly surpassed Unohana. Once he finally got his power back he almost effortlessly killed her.

Greatly surpassed Battle worn Unohana.

Show me feats that support your argument. And no he did not, he said "No longer Comparable", comparable is not equal.

Manga stated something, burden of proof is on you. Either way, I listed above, just with feat vs feat, Urahara is superior to Aizen, even though Urahara had much less screen time. On top of that Urahara is one of most hyped characters in the series...

What was not clear?

Why someone need to stand in one point, in order to be hit by kido. On the contrary, in Urahara's case, he is actually the one who need to stand in one point, and wait for his opponent to touch him two times.

Only two people have said he is Shikai Aizen level and another simply said he is not as strong as Current Ichigo (Who is still way stronger then Shikai Aizen).

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is a thread dedicated to the topic. Like 2-3 people said he was Shikai Aizen level, the majority said he was around Butterfly Aizen level and like 2-3 people said he stomps any version of Aizen. So no, I am not the biased one here.

I stopped reading when I saw Zaraki the continue buster. Just because one forum said that does not mean that you are not biased.

Of course, no one had heard of Urahara in years, and he was surely surprised. Mayuri cannot do anything to him and he knows it, since that would start a war between divisions.

Mayuri killed many innocent souls and Quncies, and still no one can't do anything to him, he is not even striped from his captain position.

Except no one ever supported Nnoitra's claim, meanwhile, we had 3 Sternritters who had all said that he was a monster (Pepe, Askin and Catnipp). Gremmy was literally locked up because they where scared of his power, no one ever opposed him being the strongest, you can't go around ignoring those facts. Gremmy was the strongest Quincy bar the emperor Yhwach, this is a fact in terms of both portrayal and feats.

Pepe and Askin also said that they are monsters. Askin goes that far to say that Gremmy is untalented. They 'fear' him because he has 'hax' ability, not because he is overall strong. Just like whole Gotei was affraid of KS.
Portrayel sure don't put him at first spot:
1. Jugram - I don't think this is even debetable. Jugram is his leader, not just that he is leader of SR, but he is strong enough to be next emperor, he and Yhwach are similar.
2. Askin - I alreedy explained, tho I don't mind if you think otherwise
3. Pepe - same as above.
4. Royd - keep up with Yamamoto.

Portrayel don't say anything about his strength, it just said that Gremmy is plot device to hype Zaraki's strength. If Gremmy is strongest than he wouldn't be defeated this early in the series.

Because Gremmy is a psychopath monster who would not mind killing Juha Bach himself while Jugram is by far the most loyal and level headed Sternritter, fitting to be second in command.

Already explained. He is a perfect leader, all the Sternritters like him, even Bazz B, literally no one likes Gremmy, becuase they are all scared of him.

Not just second in command, he is strong to replace Yhwach. He is same as Yhwach and there is no proof that he is loyal as you think to Yhwach. On the contrary, he didn't say anything when Askin called him 'next emperor'.

Askin likes Jugram, and he is scared of Gremmy. He never put him in the same tier as himself, he said that he wants to be as far away from him as possible, and Pepe agreed.

Because he is creepy kid. WW was same, the difference is that WW was last Arrancar to be defeated, Gremmy is defeated far before final fight.

1. The person had said that if he becomes more powerful it will be impossible to stop him if he starts a revolt, in other words, Gotei 13 would not be able to stop him. And then follows up with Yamamoto feared this very thing.
2. That's utterly false, lol you seriously think that the only one to beat Aizen is to counter KS? If he dropped a meteor it would not matter wether he is under KS or not, since its sheer size would hit Aizen either way. Also, Gremmy can make living people, who could imagine that his senses are back to normal, since the living people/clones that he creates will not be under the effect of KS.

1. That was said by C46, C46 also believed Aizen, also C46 is not fighters, their stataments could be vague.
2. If he don't be defeated before he could drop meteor.
From what we saw Gremmy is not really smart, so he will not even realise what's happaning around him.

Ulquiorra was not scared of Nnoitra's power either, Ulquiorra was not paranoid to the point that would have wanted to surprise attack Nnoitra with the other Espeda because of how dangerous he was. And lastly, Ulquiorra actually has feats that put him above Nnoitra.

That's because of difference in personallity. Point is that we already had some guy who was blabing about himself.

But Sui Feng now does.

That don't change my point here.

Show me some threads involving Gremmy and Current Kenpachi on that forum like how I showed you a thread with Kenpachi vs Aizen forms and we will see.

1. There is no need to do so. It won't change what I said here.
2. It's against the rules.
2. There don't exist Kenpachi vs Gremmy thread, there exist official versus thread, and 4000 posts, so to search 4000 posts just to show you, no way.

Pretty much. Mask De Masculine was a average Quincy, Quilge was not stronger then Mask.

What does that prove.

lol what? He said "wait" long after Quilge trapped Ichigo, he said "wait" because Quilge was about to kill him and Orihime and he couldn't do anything about it, and then Grimmjow came, one shotted Quilge and blitzed Urahara. Its all in the panels, there is nothing you can deny here. He is weaker then Quilge in combat, period.

He said oh wait, just after Quilge explained his abilities and when he realised what he had one more abilities. Which Kisuke didn't know about. He knew about Blut, Vollstanidg and stealing bankai device, so that's why he was surprised.

No he's not, Tessei and Hachi are better, Aizen is around the same. I agree that he is the smartest character in the series, but that's about it. He is comparable to Aizen, in no shape or form does not mean he is equal to Aizen. There is nothing I should face, Urahara is one of my favourites, but I am fully capable of saying he is not even as strong as Quilge, because I don't let Bias get in the way of my judgment.

1. Tessai could be better, but only based on hype.
2. Hachi had time, but didn't demonstrate to put him above.
3. Same with Aizen.

Maybe you just put him less. You can be someones fan and still put him low, I have experienced with that. In your head you think that something is good argument to put him above, but actually it's not.

Btw forbidden tale, lets agree to disagree, I am done on the subject.

Ok, either way I will respect your views.

 

[Killuaa]

Link this information, I have done my research, and its 30 seconds tops.

You must be registered for see links

There. Besides, I'm pretty sure he wasn't in that gravity room thing for more than 30 seconds. I'll give it 10 seconds tops.