[Discussion] Kenpachi, Kurotsuchi Mayuri and Byakuya vs Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi
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Umari Senju
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Yuroichi, Urahara, and Isshun. The others fell to a pretransformed Aizen without touching him.
The others actually roughed him up and Aizen needed to transform to take them down
The others actually roughed him up and Aizen needed to transform to take them down
Venomous Cobra
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Actually, zaraki, mayuri and byakuya didn't have the chance to fight aizen , bedside I don't think that you know what current zaraki managed to do
Forbidden Tale
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Scenario 1:
Urahara solos, Isshin solos. Both Urahara and Isshin are strong as Aizen. Shinigami Aizen already defeated numeros captain at the same time, mostly of these captains are stronger than pre time skip form of these.
Scenario 2:
Current Zaraki, Shikai Byakuya post time skip, Mayuri...
Yoruichi >>>>>>>>> Mayuri
Shikai Urahara >>>>> Shikai Byakuya
Current Zaraki > Shikai Isshin
But, still after Yoruichi and Urahara finish their fights, they will in tag team defeat Zaraki.
Urahara solos, Isshin solos. Both Urahara and Isshin are strong as Aizen. Shinigami Aizen already defeated numeros captain at the same time, mostly of these captains are stronger than pre time skip form of these.
Scenario 2:
Current Zaraki, Shikai Byakuya post time skip, Mayuri...
Yoruichi >>>>>>>>> Mayuri
Shikai Urahara >>>>> Shikai Byakuya
Current Zaraki > Shikai Isshin
But, still after Yoruichi and Urahara finish their fights, they will in tag team defeat Zaraki.
kotoamatsukami
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Lol wat do you be talking bout?...urahara an isshin are as strong as shinigami aizen? Sense when?.....they don't stand on aizen level,first off aizen did not even is ks on them like he did everyother captain before them also thoes captains that fought before them were not an full health cu of there fights with the espada..aizen shinigami body was reaching its limits thanks to the hogyoku so e won't at full power while fighting isshin...an aizen let urahara hit him cuz he knew it did not matter.....but team one probly takes scenario 1 by a little bit or it's a tie.
As for scenario #2 I think you gone mad...yourichi is one of my favs but to think she's that much stronger than myuri who's a smart captain with lots of tricks up his sleeve is just ridiculous...then you put shikai urahara of RG shikai Byakuya you've gone mad if anything they are at the same level can't see urahara clearly winning this fight...an current shikai zaraki will just stomp all over isshin an it's not even funny.
An I think the match ups will be like this: myuri vs urahara , Byakuya vs yourichi an isshin vs zaraki.
Forbidden Tale
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Not just that they are strong as Shinigami Aizen, they are probably more powerful than him.
1. Isshin already beaten Aizen which lead to Aizen's transformation when he hit his limit.
2. Aizen already said that he and Urahara were equal.
He never used KS on them, since he had Hogyoku and was curious about his new power, he was literally messing with them.
Even thought the captains were not at full healthy, I would still agrue that...
Shikai Love, Shikai Rose, Shikai Shinji, Shikai Kyoraku, Bankai Hitsugaya, Shikai Sui Feng, Shikai Lisa (did I forgot someone?) even while battleworn are stronger than Byakuya, Mayuri and Zaraki.
What did RG Byakuya showed? That his shikai is now powerful like his previous bankai, that is not even enough to beat current Shikai Renji. Shikai Kyoraku is more powerfull than Bankai Byakuya (pre ts), Shikai Urahara is much more powerful than Shikai Kyoraku.
Yoruichi was able to put a fight against Hogyoku Aizen, Sui Feng couldn't fight with Shinigami Aizen.
kotoamatsukami
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Yea a worn down aizen that was reaching the limits of his shinigami body..it won't just a simple flick of his finer there was some form of kido behind it.
like I stated before that aizen was reaching his limit an not even useing ks..bring proof of aizen saying they were equals?
If we are talking current Byakuya an zaraki an myuri then no thoes you named are not stronger in there shikai forms but if we are talking pre TS then yes they are stronger...plus like I said before aizen used ks on them that's why they all lost so easily...if he used ks on isshin an uarahra an yourichi they would have ended up being the same way unless one of them went bankai don't know if that would help against ks thoe..
We really don't know how powerful his previous bankai really is sense he aint show it during the first invasion well asnodt did but barley..lol did you say RG shikai Byakuya can't beat RG shikai renji this is to funny just stop Byakuya petals will rip him apart renji would not even be able to get close an how can renji escape gokei senbonzakura?...there you go again talking nonsense shikai urahara is much stronger than shikai kyoraku lol where do you come up with this stuff?
Yourichi put up a fight against hogyoku aizen seriously?
Forbidden Tale
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I don't see it as making much difference. Aizen truly battle was just around 5 second against these captains, I sure don't think that would make any difference. Also, Aizen at that time already had Hogyaku, who could heal his wonds.
"Tho, our powers are no longer equal"
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I don't think that it would make difference and also Hogyoku was alredy there to heal Aizen, Aizen didn't use KS, but Isshin didn't use his shikai either.
Shikai Zaraki (current) > Shikai Isshin/Shikai Urahara > RR Shikai Byakuya > Zaraki (full power pre Muken) > Bankai Byakuya (pre RR) >>> Bankai Mayuri > Shikai Byakuya (pre RR)
If I had to estimate Byakuya's new strength in Bankai, than it would be higher than Isshin's or Urahara's strength in shikai, but still the two also has their bankai, which would lead to same scenario.
Bankai increase power of user, so I think that increase from Urahara and Isshin would give them strength to surpass current Zaraki.
We know that he is no more powerful than average captain level.
Shikai Renji took punch from full powered Mask De Masculine. His punch was 10 times stronger than his previous form, that previous form one shotted two captains in bankai, who at least should be average captains level. Bankai Renji pre RR training wasn't even captain level fighter and he was well below that level.
Byakuya pre ts was not more powerful than average captain level and his current shikai is strong as bankai.
So, to put it simple.
Shikai Renji is around good deal stronger than average captain level in bankai, unlike Shikai Byakuya who is just strong as his previous Bankai form....
The only reason I see Byakuya being more poweful than Renji, is that he still didn't show his full power and that Kubo just hyping him. I could see that happening, but that would just be horrible, just like all that RR power ups they received.
Shikai Kyoraku is around same level as Ressurection Starrk, look at the page above and you will see that Urahara = Aizen, from Aizen's own words. By that Shikai Urahara = Shikai Aizen...
Shikai Aizen = Shikai Urahara >>> Shikai Kyoraku >/=/< Ressurection Starrk
Yes, considering her fight against Hogyoku Aizen and considering fight from other captains against Shinigami Aizen...
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kotoamatsukami
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So you telling me base isshin is stronger than aizen? Yea right..aizen an isshin barely fought an next thing you know aizen looked tired now if isshin fought aizen early when aizen first arrived in fkt then isshin most likely would have lost..the hogyoku was starting to take over he reached the limits of his shinigami body.
When were they powers ever equal to began with? There's also different translations for that part aswell..an don't ever compare isshin shikai to aizen's it's no comparison..we seen aizen get rid of multiple captains what has urahara done?
I don't know what make you think shikai isshin/urahra is stronger than current shikai Byakuya I just don't get?..he trained in the RR an you still think they above him have you gone mad..even base ulquiorra slapped one of urahara shikai attacks out the way like it was nothing...an I hope you don't think urahara or isshin is actually stronger than current zaraki in any way an zaraki without eye patch would be over kill not to mention we don't know the ability of his shikai.
an like I said before the user physical stats don't rise in bankai the zanpacto power rises an it's ability gets stronger.
Yea but that's a punch it's not penetrating the skin Byakuya blades can cut threw any type of skin renji just won't stand there an get hit by senbonzakura he will get cut up...an we don't know how much stronger Byakuya has grown physicaly or if he got faster...an even asnodt said Byakuya had an amazing bankai because how it works it can be used as offense an defense at the same time..
Byakuya will always be stronger than renji.
First off shikai kyoraku will lose to a resurrection starrk, he can fire to many cero's at once an he was never serious in his fight with kyoraku he was about to get Serious an stat firing 1000 cero's at once but ww interfered..anyway we seen what urahara shikai can do an it has nothing on complete hypnosis an I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with me on that one it's common sense.
Yourichi already admitted she was weaker than Byakuya back then before the time skip..
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was back when she saves ichigo from Byakuya on the bridge...so then this means that Byakuya can also put up a fight against hogyoku aizen? So how strong is Byakuya to you now?
Forbidden Tale
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Yes, Base Isshin >/= Base Aizen. Shikai Isshin >/= Shikai Aizen.
That's why Aizen was pushed trought several buildings... The fight lead to Aizen hitting his limit as shinigami, which again say a lot. Hogyoku didn't began transformation, but he still was present there and Hogyoku's abilitie is to listen other wishes and..........
This is Volume translation... Aizen just said that they were equal when Aizen didn't had his Hogyoku. In Bleach when we consider Shinigamis it's all about reiatsu, Aizen releasing shikai, will boost his reitatsu, but Isshin's shikai would also boost his reiatsu, so it will end as same. There are ways to counter KS, Yamamoto found a way, Gin found a way and 'reiatsu surprasing thing'.
What has Urahara done? Getting praised by Aizen to be most inteligent person in SS. Getting praised by Aizen that he was equl with him. Created Kido that sealed Hogyoku Aizen way. Casted Kido that is powerful enough to kill any shinigami, which was stated by Aizen himself.
He trained to the RR, so what??? Ulquiorra never got to fight full powered serious Kisuke. That Kisuke we only saw against Aizen..
I could see Zaraki being stronger without his eye patch than Isshin/Urahara/Shinigami Aizen, but I will wait to see his power without eye patch, for that.
No.
1. I don't care about that. I'm talking here about power level.
2. In their first fight, it wasn't easy for Byakuya to hit Renji with senbonzakura, actually the thing that beat Renji was kido.
If Shikai Kyoraku is weaker than Starrk, than it would just further my argument here. I just gave you a proof of Aizen's words.
I don't know how people see things on this forum, but on Bleach Asylum, I wouldn't say that people will agree with you much.
I don't see how she said that she admited inferiority here?
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kotoamatsukami
Active member
Nope isshin stated aizen has been slowing down, aizen won't fighting to his best abilities thanks to the hogyoku starting to take over...an let me help you with something base aizen>base isshin shikai aizen>>>>>!shikai isshin...no one will say getsuga tensho is better or equal to KS you are the only one.
The only way they can be equals is if urahara never saw aizen ritual for KS..if aizen were to use ks on urahara what could urahara had done like really?....Yama way is to deadly for most people cuz they are not as tough as he is an aizen told gin how to get out of ks which is info that urahara does not have..if where going by your translation then yes their reiatsu was probably even but when it comes to sword abilities aizen wins...an releasing your shikai don't raise your spiritual pressure where you get that from?
That's nothing compared to taking down multiple captains an vizards only using shikai...he created some kido that's good an all an got some praise from aizen but still that's not enough to match what aizen did..just have to wait an see urahara fight a real opponent other than yammy.
You see how renji was after training up there so yea that's why I say Byakuya is much stronger now an that his shikai is equal or greater then isshin an urahara's...an urahara never got to fight a full powered serious ulquiorra..we also need to see zaraki shikai ability aswell...zaraki is clearly stronger than them even shinji said if zaraki dies the Quincy will most likely win the war.
Yes....if bankai increases the users physical stats then tosen would have never gotten raped by zaraki.
Byakuya never really tried to use senbonzakura in their first fight..renji stopped it one time then the next time Byakuya used it to break apart renji bankai..after that he used kido an then went to bankai, renji bankai back then had nothing on Byakuya bankai...yea renji grew stronger but so did Byakuya...so yea Byakuya never actually used his shikai to many times.
It's all about match ups starkk can fire to many cero at once so kyoraku can't really get close sense his shikai is mostly close range,kyoraku can't fire back multiple blast of any kind in his shikai that will do damage..we never seen urahara fire multiple blast constantly so kyoraku has a much better chance at getting close to him then he does starkk..starkk was strong just never took fighting serously...shikai urahara would have a hard time with starkk aswell if starkk kept constantly shooting ceros from all angles.
She's saying he was to strong that's why she had to take ichigo an leave.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
Because Aizen was weaker. It was already showed that Hogyoku "heal" Aizen when Ichigo cut him.
KS is better if it goes against each other in direct, but if KS got negated, than it would be no KS vs GT.
Base Isshin >/= Base Aizen, Shikai Isshin >/= Shikai Aizen
Ritual is just "Shatter" Kyoka Suigetsu. I don't see why would Urahara not be tough enough, he don't necessary need to be tough as Yamamoto.
Shinigamis battles are battles of reiatsu.
Realising bankai boost reiatsu, so why not reiatsu boost in shikai. Shinigamis battles are battles of reiatsu
I'm not really sure what more proof you need.. Aizen himself said.
I do believe that Shikai Urahara would be stronger than Bankai Byakuya pre RR. So if his Shikai is just strong as his previous bankai. I do not belive that he could put more that decent fight against Shikai Urahara.
Yes he didn't, but we know that Ulquiorra "run away" when he realised who is in front of him.
It would mean that tosen even with just shikai is one of the weakest captains. Also, I'm still not sure did Tosen went all out when he fought Zaraki.
I do agree that Byakuya at that time was more powerful than Renji and that by a long margin. Byakuya did become stronger, but he already mastered his bankai, know name of his bankai.. Renji for example nor did knew name nor did master his bankai, so Renji's room for development in power should be greater than Byakuya's.
That's why in debating I'm using power levels and not match ups...
She said that Ichigo is not powerful enough, to raise his moral she said what you interput as she not being more powerful.
She was messing around with Byakuya when they encounter each other. Also at that time if I remember correctly, she was not in form and didn't train/fight for 100 years.
Also, at that time bleach was supposed to look different and both Byakuya and Zaraki were supposed to be one of strongest captains.. You can see with all hype their got at that time, Zaraki being kenpachi and Byakuya being most famous captain in the SS. Also, it was said that Byakuya is strongest in family history. From what we see I sure wouldn't rank him more than mid tier captain. So in Kuchiki family history, there weren't shinigami stronger than mid tier? I doubt that.
Just so much hyping, like esapadas. VL power is already on level of captain or above. Above captain level? It would be something like Kyoraku, Ukitake, Urahara, RR Byakuya.. Their power should also be boosted by Hogyoku, so arrancars should be good deal greater than captain level. Mostly of espadas were VL, but some of espadas were defeated by not above captain level fighters.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Ok he was healed? Also he still was reaching his limits cuz the hogyoku started taking over like I said isshin won't doing no major damage to aizen he won't landing blow after blow aizen slowed down cuz the hogyoku was starting to take over..
Can't negate ks an isshin don't come close to doing something like that with his spiritual pressure...stop putting base isshin over base aizen it don't work like that.
No his ritual is what people thought his shikai really was..shatter is his release command...I've never seen someone use shikai an they gained a reiatsu boost but what ever.
Urahara can accomplish the feat of taking down those captains an vizards if he uses bankai an they don't thats the only way..if its just shikai urahara then no..
Naw I doubt shikai urahara is stronger than RR Byakuya in shikai..plus his bankai skills probaly increased sense the aizen fight to the start of the first invasion...an ulquiorra mission was to go check out ichigo not fight urahara an yourichi.
Tosen went bankai an failed miserably...like I said ur physical stats don't increase.
I just don't see renji being stronger than him but who knows it might happen.
Gotta use match ups aswell that's why I say no one under the illusion of ks can really defeat aizen unless your Yama in bankai form.
No she clearly said no one on that bridge could beat Byakuya well on the good side that is..yea they had a little shunpo contest but that's nothing like having a real fight.
The only espada to lose to a non captain lever person was #9 the one rukia defeated.