KCM Naruto vs Gokage

[lanakui8]

The 5 Kage win. Narutos clones are fodder food. Dunno why people always say they're Kage level, it's fact that Narutos KCM clones were all heavily supported. Not once did his clones fight any Kage level opponents singlehandedly.

Against Mu, Gaara helped him land that blow
Against 3rd Raikage, his clone was saved from death twice by Dodai. Then received Intel from Gyuki

You must be registered for see links

- Naruto always had support, his clones never fought alone

....since when does a person have to defeat a kage level opponent in order to be considered Kage level? The majority of kages and people considered kage level have never solo'd kages, the definition of kage level is on the level of a kage. The clones were portrayed at such a level as one was sent to deal with sandaime raikage while gaara and oonoki were sent to take on troll. Even when the clone reverted to base, it was still fighting at the kage level demonstrated by it pulling as much weight as oonoki and gaara against edo madara, and rubber gai saving the base clone instead of any of the other alliance members. IF you want to talk about feats, the clone has landed a rasenshuriken on someone as fast as sandaime raikage w/o any help, it has the same stone crushing chakra arms as the original and is durable enough to take zero damage from attacks that would cut normal shinobi's arms off.

In a battle against multiple powerful opponents without support or back up, they merely act as distractions and make for some extra supports, allow feints and to add for more combinations. However they lack a final blow and only separate chakra (something Naruto will really need against the 5 Kage).

the clones have the ability to use multiple kcm rasenshurikens and can even use bijuurasengan, there's no argument for them lacking a final blow. Naruto was able to fight on par with edo itachi after making 13 clones, the naruto in this thread starts off with over double that naruto's chakra reserves and has kurama constantly replenishing his chakra reserves as the fight goes on. Chakra is not an issue.

As Kakashi already explained that clones won't work in such situations-

You must be registered for see links

...so base clones being unable to land a finishing blow against edo madara + rinnegan obito + the juubi = kcm clones not being able to defeat a kage 1 vs 1. Seems legit.

Why didn't Naruto use clones against the Edo Jinchuuriki? Because without anyone to support those clones, they become fodder. See what black Zetsu did to a Naruto clone, sent him running into a tree. Would've been wiped out by the Jinchuuriki. The 5 Kage took on edo Madara who is >>>>>>>>>>> KCM Naruto. So not sure why they're being underestimated.

He didn't use clones against the edo jinchurikis because he couldn't. After splitting his chakra among the 13 he made prior and fighting nagato + itachi his chakra levels were at a point where he couldn't make another kcm clone, which is why when

You must be registered for see links

I don't understand what the five kage taking on edo madara has to do with anything. They got utterly stomped by a madara who wasn't even serious. Put konohomaru against madara, he'll get thrashed too, doesn't mean konohomaru > KCM Naruto or his clones.
I also don't understand how black zetsu sending a clone into a tree means anything. Mei is a kage right? She + choujurou + an armada of jounins combined couldn't even beat black zetsu, so why does someone as strong as that not even beating the clone = anything?

Ay alone was manhandling KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time. Naruto barely avoided his speed once. Ohnoki makes him lighter and then Ay gives Naruto hell. And honestly just Ay and Ohnoki is enough, adding the other 3 is overkill. Dunno why people think KCM is on edo Madara level where he can be taking on the 5 Kage. Narutos shadow clones are overrated in combat, they aren't offensively threatening to Kage levels. Each of the Kage fought 5 Susanoo clones (wood clones, much better than shadow clones). So why wouldn't they be able to combat KCM clones just fine?

Ei 'manhandling' opponents who aren't even serious and don't even want to fight him means nothing about how he would fair against him in an actual fight. Base bee blew V2 Ei into the ground, when naruto got serious he pulled a minato against Ei's fastest punch. And we've seen that in an actual fight, KCM naruto's clones can very well land nukes on people as fast as Ei.

Naruto has taken stronger hits than Ei can dish out to the face with minimal damage, if oonoki makes Ei lighter, Ei becomes a non-factor. If oonoki wants to backpack Ei, naruto just clashes a rasenshuriken with Ei's fist instead of trying to dodge, or uses clones in order to feint the duo and end them while they are heavy.

The bolded proves you need to read the manga. These clones can put down the likes of muu with their weaker attacks, can land KCM rasenshuriken against people as fast as sandaime raikage. The only reason the gokage lasted so long against the susanoo were because madara was toying with them. If they were up against KCM clones instead of susanoo clones, oonoki, mei, gaara and tsunade get taken out in moments since none of them are faster than sandaime raikage nor have the durability to tank a guided rasenshuriken. Ei is the only one who might be able to avoid 1 rasenshuriken, highly doubtful he'll avoid 5 of them.

 

[ARGUS]

Naruto wins this high diff

--No one bar Lightened Ay is even reacting to Narutos speed, as Mei and Tsunade get slammed down by Rasengan barrages or obliterated by an FRS right at the beginning

--Gaaras defenses are also sufferring the same fate as above, as a single FRS obliterates it, and gaara along with it, his sannd was unable to catch even joki Boy, so naruto dances around it with utmost ease,

--Ay and onoki get vastly outnumbered once the others are down, and with back pack Ay needing the aggravated rock technique to cause damage to the clones, causes him to slow down, allowing naruto and his clones to seperate them and finish them off,

--Jinton is also never happening, not when oonoki would be unable to even track narutos speed, and when its charge up time would allow naruto and his clones too fire off an FRS right at him, and kill him off

KCM Naruto didn't barely evade Ei, he waited for Ei's fist to almost touch his face just like Minato did.

Uh, No,
Both naruto and minato didnt just wait to react to Ay, they barely reacted to him, because:
1. Ays speed was fast enough to pressure them
2. they didnt have fast enough reflexes to react to him any quicker, so they did barely react

claiming that they just waited to react is not a valid excuse, because had Ay been abit faster, than both minatoo and KCM naruto wouldve been blitzed
because no way in hell is

You must be registered for see links

and

You must be registered for see links

just waiting,

Since Naruto's actually trying to fight Ei instead of run around him,

Except evading someone whilst stationary is ALOT harder than evading someone whilst you are already moving at a different direction,

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Kcm naruto makes 13 clones and eachive kage gets 2...minimum.
some will get 3.

Then they get stomped.

 

[lanakui8]

Uh, No,
Both naruto and minato didnt just wait to react to Ay, they barely reacted to him, because:
1. Ays speed was fast enough to pressure them
2. they didnt have fast enough reflexes to react to him any quicker, so they did barely react

1.NAruto was looking and talking to Ei as Ei approached him
2. Waiting till the last moment to begin a dodge is standard for doing so as it doesn't allow the opponent to react to said dodge. See Naruto vs Sandaime raikage, Sasuke vs Ei
3. Minato casually reacted to Ei's max speed the second time Ei tried it proving that the first time, he was acting in order to set up his counterattack on Ei
4. If minato or naruto had just reacted, there would have been a "!" above their head or something to indicate such, yet it's never there.
5. If Naruto is faster than Ei, why would he only be capable of barely reacting to a slower speed than his own? People get blitzed by people much faster than themselves, you don't get blitzed by people who are as fast as you, or barely capable of reacting to people who are slower.
6. Your 2 points are assertions, not arguments.

claiming that they just waited to react is not a valid excuse, because had Ay been abit faster, than both minatoo and KCM naruto wouldve been blitzed
because no way in hell is

You must be registered for see links

and

You must be registered for see links

just waiting

Like i said, minato was setting up for his counterattack which requires he make Ei believe he got minato.

You must be registered for see links

is what proves minato's expression was just an act.

Except evading someone whilst stationary is ALOT harder than evading someone whilst you are already moving at a different direction, [/COLOR]

if ninjas didn't have a thing called 'shunshin' which allows them to

You must be registered for see links

, then sure. Unfortunately that's not the case and therefore the real world example you've given doesn't apply.

 

[ARGUS]

1.NAruto was looking and talking to Ei as Ei approached him

IIrrelevent since

You must be registered for see links

at his top speed, before

You must be registered for see links

,
soo even if he was talking and looking, it took naruto right at the brink of time to evade Ay

2. Waiting till the last moment to begin a dodge is standard for doing so as it doesn't allow the opponent to react to said dodge. See Naruto vs Sandaime raikage, Sasuke vs Ei

Except it wasnt just waiting, both MMinato and KCM naruto barely reacted to V2 Ay, because they dont have the reflexes to evade it any quicker, nothing suggests that they can
heck minato doesnt even have the physical means to evade AY, he had to use FTG,

and the examples that you have provided are irrelevant since in both of those cases, naruto and sasuke were attempting to counterattack, not just react,

3. Minato casually reacted to Ei's max speed the second time Ei tried it proving that the first time, he was acting in order to set up his counterattack on Ei

No, no way in hell is

You must be registered for see links

casually reacting, because again, had Ay been even a little faster than Minato wouldve had his face slammed in, and minato needing FTG to react to him, doesnt show a physical reaction, but a mental reaction
and whats worse is that minato wasnt even counterattacking Ay, he attempted to attack Bee instead,

4. If minato or naruto had just reacted, there would have been a "!" above their head or something to indicate such, yet it's never there.

No, not necessarily

5. If Naruto is faster than Ei, why would he only be capable of barely reacting to a slower speed than his own? People get blitzed by people much faster than themselves, you don't get blitzed by people who are as fast as you, or barely capable of reacting to people who are slower.

Except this example isnt valid for Minato, when minato isnt using his own physical speed to react to Ay, he used FTG,
and as for their shunshin, V2 Ay >>>> Minatos, so minato still reacted to someone a lot faster than his own speed

and for naruto, he actually had to evade Ay, not just react to him, so he still had to be faster than Ay, not just mentally but also physically,
he was faster, but no way in hell fast enough to just ''purposely'' reacting to him late

6. Your 2 points are assertions, not arguments.

your point of Minato and Naruto ''purposely'' reacting ''late'' to V2 Ay is wrong, and thats all that is it to it

Like i said, minato was setting up for his counterattack which requires he make Ei believe he got minato.

You must be registered for see links

is what proves minato's expression was just an act.

Umm no it doesnt, there is no act,
mianto still reacted at exactly the same time in both instances,

if ninjas didn't have a thing called 'shunshin' which allows them to

You must be registered for see links

, then sure. Unfortunately that's not the case and therefore the real world example you've given doesn't apply.

Except it does apply here, and real world example is certainly valid
certainly more valid than your assertion here

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Ok not saying tht the kcm clones are not strong cuz they are but black zetsu stalled.. kcm clone and division. And could also trip one fairly easy.... They r mainly used to aid another mage level fighter... (Although Idk if it was a clone tht defeated the third but I dnt think so lol) I mean not saying Natuto can't beat them but if black zetsu can fight off a clone and a whole squad for a period of time the gokage wether seperate or together can do so much more.. I mean everybody makes same arguement of clone tbb spam od speed blitz but why didn't Natuto use tht against obito and his paths or even against jubbito with bm???? Clones are still clones and I think the gokage are always underrated in this fight ...

As to who wins I believe if Natuto did create the clones the gokage should take flight via sand clouds and tsuande and onooki go together create massive jinton tht vapes everything perhaps Natuto himself (Def his clones).before he can fire off tbb
If they can do this then the gokage win mid-high diff if Natuto releaases tbb the gokage r defeated

 

[lanakui8]

IIrrelevent since

You must be registered for see links

at his top speed, before

You must be registered for see links

,
soo even if he was talking and looking, it took naruto right at the brink of time to evade Ay

how does that work then? If naruto perceived Ei coming at him from a distance, why was he only able to begin his attempt at evading when Ei was right in his face?

Except it wasnt just waiting, both MMinato and KCM naruto barely reacted to V2 Ay, because they dont have the reflexes to evade it any quicker, nothing suggests that they can
heck minato doesnt even have the physical means to evade AY, he had to use FTG,

...

You must be registered for see links

Even in that very chapter, minato warps to the tree and again behind Ei before ei can even move a few feet. Naruto being able to use speed even higher than Ei's is proof that he wouldn't have to wait till Ei's fist is right on his nose before beginning to evade.

and the examples that you have provided are irrelevant since in both of those cases, naruto and sasuke were attempting to counterattack, not just react,

Well, that's only true if you presuppose that naruto and minato were just trying to react, not trying to wait till Ei's fist is right about to hit them in order to not give Ei a chance to react to them.

No, no way in hell is

You must be registered for see links

casually reacting, because again, had Ay been even a little faster than Minato wouldve had his face slammed in, and minato needing FTG to react to him, doesnt show a physical reaction, but a mental reaction
and whats worse is that minato wasnt even counterattacking Ay, he attempted to attack Bee instead,

Minato was literally talking to Ei while Ei ran at him, he didn't even have to face Ei in order to warp in time. If Ei was a little faster, minato would have simply warped faster since Minato was waiting proven by his expression and the casualness of his feat.

No, not necessarily

I didn't know we were trying to prove our arguments with necessity. If that's the case, then we might as well end our conversation right here since there's always some unprovable assumption that renders a conclusion not necessarily true. No "!" or any visual fx to indicate surprise or reaction is strong evidence that they didn't just react considering how often kishi does do that in order to show reaction. Want a perfect example? Juugo vs Ei, juugo sees and perceives Ei before he's anywhere near, yet doesn't even decide to physically move until

You must be registered for see links

Why is that?

Except this example isnt valid for Minato, when minato isnt using his own physical speed to react to Ay, he used FTG,
and as for their shunshin, V2 Ay >>>> Minatos, so minato still reacted to someone a lot faster than his own speed

....which is even worse for your argument since if minato can react to someone a lot faster than his own speed, there's no reason why Naruto can barely react to someone who's even SLOWER than he is.

and for naruto, he actually had to evade Ay, not just react to him, so he still had to be faster than Ay, not just mentally but also physically,
he was faster, but no way in hell fast enough to just ''purposely'' reacting to him late

if you read my explanation, you'd realize that naruto 'purposely' deciding to move when Ei's punch is inches away from his face doesn't make him any faster than a naruto who noticed ei from a range and began his dodge before ei was in his face. The whole point is that naruto moves at the last second because it's easier to dodge since Ei doesn't have much of a window to react to naruto.

your point of Minato and Naruto ''purposely'' reacting ''late'' to V2 Ay is wrong, and thats all that is it to it

you've given no positive evidence, you're 'arguments' are all just asserting the very thing you're trying to prove.

Umm no it doesnt, there is no act,
mianto still reacted at exactly the same time in both instances,

So you're telling me minato shows just as much surprise when confronted with Ei's speed the first time as the second time? I've already explained many times why minato would obviously react the same regardless of how fast Ei is: because waiting till the opponent is almost in your face allows you to dodge/block/blitz them better than if you began your motion earlier.

Except it does apply here, and real world example is certainly valid
certainly more valid than your assertion here

you can't see that you're not even generating any reasons for your assertions? "except it does apply here, the real world example is clearly valid". That's an assertion. Where's the reasoning for that assertion? No where to be found. I gave an argument that shows why the real-world example isn't valid: shunshin and the explanation why.

It's the same thing with "certainly more valid than your assertion here" that right there is also just an assertion. Where's your reasoning that shows why it's not valid?

 

[lanakui8]

Ok not saying tht the kcm clones are not strong cuz they are but black zetsu stalled.. kcm clone and division. And could also trip one fairly easy.... They r mainly used to aid another mage level fighter... (Although Idk if it was a clone tht defeated the third but I dnt think so lol) I mean not saying Natuto can't beat them but if black zetsu can fight off a clone and a whole squad for a period of time the gokage wether seperate or together can do so much more.. I mean everybody makes same arguement of clone tbb spam od speed blitz but why didn't Natuto use tht against obito and his paths or even against jubbito with bm???? Clones are still clones and I think the gokage are always underrated in this fight ...

black zetsu fought Mei (one of the gokage), Choujurou (future mizukage/last seven swordsman), and an armada of jounin for a day. How does someone as powerful as that not even beating, but merely fighting off a KCM clone = any demerits against the clone? Sure gokage > black zetsu, but no one's arguing that 1 kcm clone beats the gokage, Naruto can make 13 clones with half of kurama's yang chakra, the gokage are going to potentially be fighting 26 of these guys, which means 5 vs each kage. And if the gokage can work together, so can the clones.

As to who wins I believe if Natuto did create the clones the gokage should take flight via sand clouds and tsuande and onooki go together create massive jinton tht vapes everything perhaps Natuto himself (Def his clones).before he can fire off tbb
If they can do this then the gokage win mid-high diff if Natuto releaases tbb the gokage r defeated

Sand clouds? Clouding up the arena is the worst thing the gokage could do since none of them are sensors while kcm naruto and his clones have some of the best sensing abilities in the manga. Why wouldn't the clones with their super speed not dodge the giant jinton, or fire off a guided rasenshuriken before tsunade and oonoki can prep it?

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

The fought against 26 susanno wood clones all with senju DNA for a pretty long time the only one showing problems against theirs was mei (gasra was doing fine against his until he went to save her tusande ay and onoki did fine as well)

the sand clouds comes from gaaara ...

If they r high in air clones have hard Time hitting them


Onokki and tsuabde prepare massive jinton this is addressed to guy who quoted me

 

[ARGUS]

how does that work then? If naruto perceived Ei coming at him from a distance, why was he only able to begin his attempt at evading when Ei was right in his face?

Naruto was attempting to evade Ays blow right from the beginning, when he was already moving at his top shunshin during the time Ay was coming at him,
yet naruto still barely evaded Ay right at the brink of time, indicating that the gap in their speed iis nowhere near as much as you are claiming it out to be

...

You must be registered for see links

Minato has the reflexes to react to Ay,
however he doesnt have the physical speed (shunshin) to evade his speed, hence why he resorted to using FTG

Even in that very chapter, minato warps to the tree and again behind Ei before ei can even move a few feet.

Except, Ay stopped the moment minato evaded his attack, whilst Minato immediately teleported diirectly to the the kunai that he held when Ay attempted to attack him,
so all it shows is that FTG >> Ay,
not minatos shunshin >>>> Ay

Naruto being able to use speed even higher than Ei's is proof that he wouldn't have to wait till Ei's fist is right on his nose before beginning to evade.

His speed is higher, sure
but naruto could only react to Ay at a certain time,
he evades after he reacts, and when he reacts, is when Ay gets right on his nose

Well, that's only true if you presuppose that naruto and minato were just trying to react, not trying to wait till Ei's fist is right about to hit them in order to not give Ei a chance to react to them.

Except, in both of their cases it took them that long to react,

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

which is why it was only a matter of milliseconds

Minato was literally talking to Ei while Ei ran at him, he didn't even have to face Ei in order to warp in time. If Ei was a little faster, minato would have simply warped faster since Minato was waiting proven by his expression and the casualness of his feat.

No, Minatos reflexes are limited,
if an opponent is fast enough than minato gets blitzed, its as simple as that,

You must be registered for see links

, and whether he was talking or not, he still could only react and evade Ay right at the brink of time,

I didn't know we were trying to prove our arguments with necessity. If that's the case, then we might as well end our conversation right here since there's always some unprovable assumption that renders a conclusion not necessarily true.

Except, things like ''!'' or ''visual fx'' are not necessarily the main symptoms of a close reaction

No "!" or any visual fx to indicate surprise or reaction is strong evidence that they didn't just react considering how often kishi does do that in order to show reaction.

Id say that

You must be registered for see links

is still quite a surprise,

Want a perfect example? Juugo vs Ei, juugo sees and perceives Ei before he's anywhere near, yet doesn't even decide to physically move until

You must be registered for see links

Why is that?

Except he never attempted to physically evade him, for the very simple reason that he couldnt,
hence why he decided to protect himself and yet could only do it, until he could actually see where Ay is attacking him,
if he decides to protect himself before, than Ay sees where his defense is set, up, and attacks him at an another part of his body
this is different from actually evading

....which is even worse for your argument since if minato can react to someone a lot faster than his own speed, there's no reason why Naruto can barely react to someone who's even SLOWER than he is.

naruto barely evaded him, not barely reacted, it was minato who barely reacted
so if i really did say that naruto barely reacted, than i would concede on that misunderstanding

if you read my explanation, you'd realize that naruto 'purposely' deciding to move when Ei's punch is inches away from his face doesn't make him any faster than a naruto who noticed ei from a range and began his dodge before ei was in his face.

The whole point is that naruto moves at the last second because it's easier to dodge since Ei doesn't have much of a window to react to naruto.

you've given no positive evidence, you're 'arguments' are all just asserting the very thing you're trying to prove.


So you're telling me minato shows just as much surprise when confronted with Ei's speed the first time as the second time? I've already explained many times why minato would obviously react the same regardless of how fast Ei is: because waiting till the opponent is almost in your face allows you to dodge/block/blitz them better than if you began your motion earlier.

Yes it does allow it better
but regardless thee fact is that minato still barely reacted to him,
he could use FTG to evade Ay the moment he sees him moving at him, yet he could only use it right at the brink of time


you can't see that you're not even generating any reasons for your assertions? "except it does apply here, the real world example is clearly valid". That's an assertion. Where's the reasoning for that assertion? No where to be found. I gave an argument that shows why the real-world example isn't valid: shunshin and the explanation why.

It's the same thing with "certainly more valid than your assertion here" that right there is also just an assertion. Where's your reasoning that shows why it's not valid?

never mind, I concede

 

[-Akuma-]

Naruto wins both.

 

[Bogard]

Minato never barely reacted to Ay. That notion alone is stupid as hell when you look at the context and this picture

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Notice that the kunai Minato had in his hands(near Raikage's feet) suddenly jumped over Raikage's shoulder? How did this happen? Minato did it obviously and Kishi even emphasized the kunai on the panel below for a reason. Minato using FTG at the last second was on purpose, a set up for his counter-attack

Also pay attention that Ay's position didn't change that much(despite still being in motion) by the time:

1- Minato left the kunai above him
2- Teleported away
3- Came back to the kunai he left

Does that sound like someone who barely evaded something? No it looks like the contrary to me, especially when you see how shocked he was here when he realised that even after all that, he still had the time to mark Bee after a single moment

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

In reality Minato actually did better than KCM Naruto against Ay considering not only he was at a closer starting distance to Ay(something like 10m unlike 50m in Naruto-Ay's case), but unlike Naruto who only evaded Ay(at a farther distance to boot), Minato actually prepared his could counter-attack(that he actually did a split of second later) during the same moment

Sure you could say KCM Naruto doesn't have Hiraishin, but it's exactly the purpose of the jutsu. It would have bring nothing to the table for Minato if he just used shunshin to evade like Naruto considering he'd have lost his possibility to subdue Ay with a counter-attack with that move. Hiraishin-combo was a better solution, so because he actually used a Hiraishin-combo to counter-act Ay when Naruto was only evading him doesn't prove Minato can't physically dodge him, no it was just a difference in context, a difference in ability, what was more useful in the particular scenario, a difference in mindset and skill

KCM Naruto didn't barely react to Ay's full speed though either, just like how Minato didn't barely react to Obito's handspeed during the final clash where he smacked him on the ground with a rasengan or SM Naruto against Sandaime Raikage. It's just kishimoto's way to emphasize the difference in reflexive speed between 2 opponents. The faster an opponent is to react at a closer distance, the better reflexive speed he has

This can be better explained in some movies like need for speed where the last action determine your reaction speed


That being said, Naruto should take this. He had clones capable to take on a defeat the likes of Sandaime Raikage, so he should have no problems with these kages. A lightened Ay would be the most difficult to deal with though

 

[KingHashirama]

@that wank on Naruto's speed, that he was only able to do once.

 

[Bogard]

You must be registered for see images

[

You must be registered for see links

]

[

You must be registered for see links

]

[

You must be registered for see links

]

[

You must be registered for see links

]

[

You must be registered for see links

]

You must be registered for see images

Yeah once only