KCM Naruto vs DSM Kabuto

Thesaurus

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Uchiha's put chakra beneath their feet too. They still weren't capable to use fluent movement during the dramatic altercation. Kabuto does not need to put his hands on the floor. It only looks like it implied he did only because he made the ceiling attack Itachi. But activate the jutsu, didn't have to.

You mean inside the cave? That argument isn't working for you, if anything it's against you as everything happens much faster inside the cave. And ok, he doesn't need to put his hands to the ground, there's still several apparent seals he does which KCM Naruto has full intel on.

Im not arguing Muki Tensei is as good offensively here. Im arguing defensively which the point = "factor"

And if you're not arguing that Muki Tensei is as good offensively, then you concede your initial point of "literally the only thing Kabuto is better at in a cave is White Rage" no?


Nope. Temari's Futton priories dont share Naruto's (which focuses on cutting not blowing). Yes this is in general statement, not match up factor.

What? Nartuo's FRS is Futon regardless of what you say. Futon has wind working. It might be more focused on using wind to spin faster than to create force, but the win is still an essential component of the jutsu. Knowing that, it is obvious that the Sound genjutsu gets countered. It's that there's quite some wind around the jutsu, despite it being 'made' for cutting.

Why is not possible to get rid of webs the same way in the cave? btw infused chakra (Doton)>regular earth.

You didn't understand my point. Webs cannot be attacked to thin air, they need something to stick on. In an open location it's trees, trees can easily be broken. In a cave you can stick the webs to the ceiling of the save and no one is going to destroy the cave's ceiling. It's far more convenient and much more effective within a cave than it is outside. Chakra infused Doton can easily be destroyed by Naruto's jutsus. Not to mention it's environmental influence in an open location is minute. Naruto isn't going to be destroying the ceiling of a cave with FRS just to take down a web which Kabuto can recreate in the same exact location, albeit on a higher part of the ceiling.

Bone forest would most likely land a direct hit inside then outside, sure Ill give you that. It doesn't change the KKG factoring the match up all together.

Ok.

Look at shikamaru vs Tayuya for sound Gen. It was made evidently clear distance and location isn't a factor and the only way to stop it is to manipulate the medium it travels through. Real world fax would be hearing an echo from from a mountains distance away. Since the sound waves aren't absorbed by walls and ceilings it travels much farther and won't be distorted.

Ok, it's besides the original point I am trying to make.

Kidomaru's webs is just as effective inside as outside, long as he has something to connect it on he'll be fine, which can easily be done through other techniques(Muki tensai, kimmi bones) or the destroyed buildings.

No it's not. Look at my explanation up in this post. Naruto's FRS can destroy any of the constructs Kabuto himself creates, he cannot destroy the cave however.

Naruto dosen't have flight and the bones themselves is just another way kabuto manipulates the terrain.

I never claimed he has flight. Naruto can still summon Bunta and jump. If you read my previous response you'd notice that I was assuming this discussion was in a general sense rather than match-up oriented. Regardless, I stand by my point even in this match-up. Bunta is only usable to get out of bone forest outside, ain't no bunta helping him inside the cave.
 

BenjerminGaye

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Ok, it's besides the original point I am trying to make.
the point you were trying to make was that it's less effective. I just proved that it's more effective. Much more effective at that.




No it's not. Look at my explanation up in this post. Naruto's FRS can destroy any of the constructs Kabuto himself creates, he cannot destroy the cave however.
Naruto is well beyond cave buster, naruto being able to destroy constructs has no bearings on its effectiveness, since his ability to destroy it remains the same regardless of location.



I never claimed he has flight. Naruto can still summon Bunta and jump.
Him jumping away is only giving kabuto more room to setup.

If you read my previous response you'd notice that I was assuming this discussion was in a general sense rather than match-up oriented.
that was directed towards someone else
Regardless, I stand by my point even in this match-up. Bunta is only usable to get out of bone forest outside, ain't no bunta helping him inside the cave.
true. 1 point.
 

Brother Numpsay

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You mean inside the cave? That argument isn't working for you, if anything it's against you as everything happens much faster inside the cave. And ok, he doesn't need to put his hands to the ground, there's still several apparent seals he does which KCM Naruto has full intel on.

Being inside the cave is irrelevant for putting chakra on your foot, on the ground. A floor is a floor, so nothing changes the effect of the jutsu here. @Bold, not sure why this is important.

And if you're not arguing that Muki Tensei is as good offensively, then you concede your initial point of "literally the only thing Kabuto is better at in a cave is White Rage" no?

Sure..?

What? Nartuo's FRS is Futon regardless of what you say. Futon has wind working. It might be more focused on using wind to spin faster than to create force, but the win is still an essential component of the jutsu. Knowing that, it is obvious that the Sound genjutsu gets countered. It's that there's quite some wind around the jutsu, despite it being 'made' for cutting.

Not going to bother debating this part.

You didn't understand my point. Webs cannot be attacked to thin air, they need something to stick on. In an open location it's trees, trees can easily be broken. In a cave you can stick the webs to the ceiling of the save and no one is going to destroy the cave's ceiling. It's far more convenient and much more effective within a cave than it is outside. Chakra infused Doton can easily be destroyed by Naruto's jutsus. Not to mention it's environmental influence in an open location is minute. Naruto isn't going to be destroying the ceiling of a cave with FRS just to take down a web which Kabuto can recreate in the same exact location, albeit on a higher part of the ceiling.

Ok. If anything it still useful in and .
 

EZQ

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Outside means no muki tensei to kill naruto's bunch of clones and white rage won't have the same effect.

Outside Naruto wins, med-high diff

Inside Kabuto wins med-high diff
 

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Take intel from naruto andhe might just lose. Both itach and sasuke solo with full intel and bloodlust
 

Thesaurus

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the point you were trying to make was that it's less effective. I just proved that it's more effective. Much more effective at that.

It doesn't make it more effective, it's the same as it would be in the cave given that her sound genjutsu doesn't operate like real soundwaves do in our world. Never heard of a soundwave get blown away with wind.

Naruto is well beyond cave buster, naruto being able to destroy constructs has no bearings on its effectiveness, since his ability to destroy it remains the same regardless of location.

Naruto cannot destroy a cave he's inside. He'll kill himself, not to mention he doesn't hae the capacity in KCM to do so (without killing himself that is). And it does very much so. Kidomaru's webs are much more effective in the cave then stuck on a tree, there's no debating that.

Him jumping away is only giving kabuto more room to setup.

It's better than dying isn't it? He's not getting crushed by the bones means he could counter it. There's not much that Kabuto can do in the time period that Naruto has jumped up. Naruto could use that time to make his Kage Bunshins, and then throw a few chakra arm controlled FRS to chop the bones down.


Being inside the cave is irrelevant for putting chakra on your foot, on the ground. A floor is a floor, so nothing changes the effect of the jutsu here. @Bold, not sure why this is important.

My point is that what comes from above him isn't capable of being countered with balance or chakra beneath feet. Thus inside his chances against Muki Tensei are much smaller. It's important because Naruto will be able to anticipate the Muki Tensei coming and put chakra beneath his feet. Sasuke and Itachi had no intel on it, which is why they were caught off guard to begin with. Outside it has no killing capacity as it's incapable of attacking from as many directions as it would be in a cave.

Not going to bother debating this part.

Ok

Ok. If anything it still useful in and .

I didn't deny its usefulness in those aspects. What I am denying is its usefulness to act as an impassable terrain and prohibit Naruto's freedom of movement in the cave. Outside such a thing is not as possible knowing Naruto's ability to break anything it's attached to with 'greater ease'.
 

BenjerminGaye

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It doesn't make it more effective
yes it does I already explained why.
it's the same as it would be in the cave given that her sound genjutsu doesn't operate like real soundwaves do in our world.
it actually does. it uses the sound of the flute as a medium to cast genjutsu. Unless you're saying her flute is some other worldly thing that dosen't function as a regular flute.

Never heard of a soundwave get blown away with wind.
that's sad on your part. Maybe in your mind ppl scream in storms just for the heck of it. Maybe you should look up how wind effects sound b4 u make a fool of yourself.



Naruto cannot destroy a cave he's inside.
why not?
He'll kill himself,
hardly. He has multiple resources to survive a cave in. Whether it be chakra arms or toad summons.

not to mention he doesn't hae the capacity in KCM to do so
depending on the size of the cave frs will destroy it.
(without killing himself that is).
already addressed, besides frs is a thrown projectile, thus keeping him outside it's blast radius.
And it does very much so. Kidomaru's webs are much more effective in the cave then stuck on a tree, there's no debating that.
baseless. It's connection to the tree/cave/floor/ or whatever it's connected to remains constant.



It's better than dying isn't it?
true.
He's not getting crushed by the bones means he could counter it.
running away isnt countering, if it was minato/tobirama/obito and every other high lvl st user would auto counter everything.

There's not much that Kabuto can do in the time period that Naruto has jumped up.
kabuto sets up more webs, sets up sound gen, uses Muki tensai, uses white rage, summons snakes, etc. He can do alot while naruto runs.
Naruto could use that time to make his Kage Bunshins, and then throw a few chakra arm controlled FRS to chop the bones down.
not if he gets picked out the sky during the jump.
 

Thesaurus

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yes it does I already explained why.
it actually does. it uses the sound of the flute as a medium to cast genjutsu. Unless you're saying her flute is some other worldly thing that dosen't function as a regular flute.

that's sad on your part. Maybe in your mind ppl scream in storms just for the heck of it. Maybe you should look up how wind effects sound b4 u make a fool of yourself.

If anyone's made a fool of himself it's you. You seem to act like you know your stuff about science when in fact science is completely irrelevant to this debate. Your storm analogy is horrendous. If someone plays the drums and I put many fans around me, I'm still going to hear the drums regardless of the wind. The sound waves will in no way be negated. Wind only affects the propagation of sound waves by refraction, bending the sound waves, not reflecting them.

why not? hardly. He has multiple resources to survive a cave in. Whether it be chakra arms or toad summons.

depending on the size of the cave frs will destroy it. already addressed, besides frs is a thrown projectile, thus keeping him outside it's blast radius.
baseless. It's connection to the tree/cave/floor/ or whatever it's connected to remains constant.

Because the cave is extremely thick. And :lol? Chakra arms cannot protect him from and FRS, they have no such durability feats. And toad summons? Really? Where you high when you were looking at how is from the inside? No Toad is fitting in there, let alone Bunta. Not to mention it is completely out of character for Naruto to sacrifice his toads cynically. FRS is thrown but it then expands. If he is trying to destroy the cave he will need to aim upwards, aiming up will force him into the blast radius. throwing it side ways will not destroy the cave as its energy is not focused into penetrating to the upper layer of the ground.

Nope, trees are broken in NV by pissing on them, the top of the cave barely took damage from Itachi's Yasaka Magatama.

true.
running away isnt countering, if it was minato/tobirama/obito and every other high lvl st user would auto counter everything.

That's true, but he has to do the best with what he has in his arsenal. Naruto's arsenal is much better for outside than inside versus Kabuto. So surviving, by running, is in fact countering.

kabuto sets up more webs, sets up sound gen, uses Muki tensai, uses white rage, summons snakes, etc. He can do alot while naruto runs.
not if he gets picked out the sky during the jump.

White Rage doesn't work outside. Webs won't do much when there's a billion bones that Naruto can climb with chakra beneath his feet and cut with FRS. Summons like Manda 2 are completely counter intuitive now that Bone Forest has been used. Small summons are useless. Sound Genjutsu is insta broken out of by Kurama. He can do a lot, but all of his options end up getting countered by Naruto while he creates his Kage Bunshins mid air.
 

BenjerminGaye

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If anyone's made a fool of himself it's you. You seem to act like you know your stuff about science when in fact science is completely irrelevant to this debate. our storm analogy is horrendous.
sure :rolleyes:

If someone plays the drums and I put many fans around me, I'm still going to hear the drums regardless of the wind.
That analogy is stupid. The reason why you hear it depends on:

A) the power to the fans.
B) the fans direction.
C)their location in relation to the drummer.
D) their location in relation to you.

The sound waves will in no way be negated. Wind only affects the propagation of sound waves by refraction, bending the sound waves, not reflecting them.
Sound is a physical wave traveling through a medium(air) if the medium itself is moving faster than that of the sound in a direction that doesn't benefit the listener the listener will be incapable of hearing anything.

Case in point what happened in Tayuya vs Temari.
Case in point me bringing up storm conditions.

The wind in both cases was powerful enough to rip trees out of the floor, and as such can negate the propagation of sound.

Heck the speed which sound itself travels is completely dependant on the medium it moves through.

Influence the medium "wind" =influence the sound.




Because the cave is extremely thick.
what? Really? lol that's weak. Frs rips through it.

And :lol? Chakra arms cannot protect him from and FRS,they have no such durability feats.
when has he ever needed protection from frs when he throws it?

And toad summons? Really? Where you high when you were looking at how is from the inside?
Oh I'm sorry we're just gonna overlook sasuke and itachi pulling out v2 and v3 susanno in that very cave. :rolleyes:
No Toad is fitting in there, let alone Bunta.
I never mentioned bunta... and he wouldn't need bunta for the cave in. He'd need the one with the shield.

Not to mention it is completely out of character for Naruto to sacrifice his toads cynically.
what sacrifice? Naruto is outside the blast radius the toad and his chakra arms stops rocks from crushing him, and if he's competent he'll survive the cave in like chiyo/sakura/sasori did.
FRS is thrown but it then expands.
Naruto controls when it expands.
If he is trying to destroy the cave he will need to aim upwards, aiming up will force him into the blast radius. throwing it side ways will not destroy the cave as its energy is not focused into penetrating to the upper layer of the ground.
or he let's it burrow in for a few meters before letting it expand, and calls it a day.

Nope, trees are broken in NV by pissing on them, the top of the cave barely took damage from Itachi's Yasaka Magatama.
itachi's (or that attack in general) isn't that strong. Even madara's gets swatted away by v1 cloak. it's strength comes from its numbers and a measly 3 isn't doing much.



That's true, but he has to do the best with what he has in his arsenal. Naruto's arsenal is much better for outside than inside versus Kabuto. So surviving, by running, is in fact countering.
again that isn't the case naruto's attacks are more than capable of changing the landscape to fit his needs. Same goes for kabuto. Hence location not being a factor.



White Rage doesn't work outside.
Based on what now? If there's db/manga proof I'll concede.

Webs won't do much when there's a billion bones that Naruto can climb with chakra beneath his feet and cut with FRS.
he'd retain those abilities while in a cave.
Summons like Manda 2 are completely counter intuitive now that Bone Forest has been used.
False. Manda has already shown the ability to move underground, to either move around bone forest.
Small summons are useless.
not quite. They were very effective against 5he bros at deceiving them and unlike the bros naruto as no was to see which is which.
Sound Genjutsu is insta broken out of by Kurama.
not instant as seen by killer b, it still creates a window of opportunity.
He can do a lot, but all of his options end up getting countered by Naruto while he creates his Kage Bunshins mid air.
False. Addressed above.
 

Thesaurus

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sure :rolleyes:

That analogy is stupid. The reason why you hear it depends on:

A) the power to the fans.
B) the fans direction.
C)their location in relation to the drummer.
D) their location in relation to you.

I said the fans are all around him lml.

Sound is a physical wave traveling through a medium(air) if the medium itself is moving faster than that of the sound in a direction that doesn't benefit the listener the listener will be incapable of hearing anything.

Case in point what happened in Tayuya vs Temari.
Case in point me bringing up storm conditions.

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and the explosion itself, as well as Temari's comments on it [ ] would more than suggest that the wind is powerful enough to create enough sound to refract the waves, no? If Temari's jutsu could do it, then Naruto's FRS upon expansion could more than easily do it too, not to mention act as an obstacle for Kabuto to overcome while he has Tayuya playing the flute.

The wind in both cases was powerful enough to rip trees out of the floor, and as such can negate the propagation of sound.

Heck the speed which sound itself travels is completely dependant on the medium it moves through.

Influence the medium "wind" =influence the sound.

Yea, I didn't originally notice that lml.
Yes.
Air is the medium, wind can be seen as a vector here.

what? Really? lol that's weak. Frs rips through it.

Not a chance lmao. Yasaka Magatama go stopeed 2-3 inches in. How deep inside the ground is the cave? Many, many meters.

when has he ever needed protection from frs when he throws it?

Oh I'm sorry we're just gonna overlook sasuke and itachi pulling out v2 and v3 susanno in that very cave. :rolleyes:
I never mentioned bunta... and he wouldn't need bunta for the cave in. He'd need the one with the shield.

When has he ever thrown an FRS straight up? Never, not to mention he's always used it in an open location. You suggested chakra arms were sufficient but that's not the case.

Wat. :|
Sasuke+Itachi in v3 Susano [ ]. It's like 4 times higher than them MAX. , as is . Horrendous comparison of size right there. Bunta would not have a single chance of fitting inside there, same applies to Gamakichi. Gamaken is the one with the shield and he'd never fit in either, given he's equal in size to Bunta.

what sacrifice? Naruto is outside the blast radius the toad and his chakra arms stops rocks from crushing him, and if he's competent he'll survive the cave in like chiyo/sakura/sasori did.
Naruto controls when it expands.
or he let's it burrow in for a few meters before letting it expand, and calls it a day.

If he throws his FRS diagonally it is never going to go through the top of the cave, but rather some other random place given the thickness of the cave. If he throws it upwards he'll be in the blast radius as he's directly beneath it. Not to mention Kabuto will still have the majority of the cave to use his webs on. There's no way Naruto's FRS can go through the entire ceiling, that's beyond its capabilities and mechanism. Even if it expands, that's still not negating Kabuto's ability to put webs he'll just have to place it on a higher point now. Not to mention any other point in the large cave. He can also use Muki Tensei to reconstruct the cave and make it viable for his webs if needed.

itachi's (or that attack in general) isn't that strong. Even madara's gets swatted away by v1 cloak. it's strength comes from its numbers and a measly 3 isn't doing much.

It's still meant to penetrate, and it barely penetrated through anything in that wall.

again that isn't the case naruto's attacks are more than capable of changing the landscape to fit his needs. Same goes for kabuto. Hence location not being a factor.

Not really, he can change the landscape but not to fit his needs. Especially when Kabuto has Muki tensei to laugh at all of Naruto's attempts to change the landscape.

Based on what now? If there's db/manga proof I'll concede.

You don't need a manga scan to concede, and we both know there's not one that exists. The only way for the vibrations/sound and light to oscillate is within the cave. Outside the vibrations cannot possibly intense enough to affect the person. Same with the light, it cannot blind you as you have the choice of turning around or squinting your eyes. The sound is also much less intense in the open than inside a cave. The energy spreads out and the vibrations will be much less intensive.

[quote[ he'd retain those abilities while in a cave.
False. Manda has already shown the ability to move underground, to either move around bone forest.
not quite. They were very effective against 5he bros at deceiving them and unlike the bros naruto as no was to see which is which.
not instant as seen by killer b, it still creates a window of opportunity.
False. Addressed above.[/QUOTE]

-I never suggested otherwise.
-Yes, he could in fact enclose the bone forest and force Naruto into staying in it. Naruto can still use his clones to cut down the forest with FRS and use his sensory capabilities to locate Kabuto.
-Naruto can sense negative emotions. Snakes have no interpretable emotions to sense so he will automatically know Kabuto's location as he did Kisame's.
-Agreed.
-Kage Bunshins still negate the window of opportunity as Kabuto wouldn't know which Bunshin to attack.
 

Brother Numpsay

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Can yall actually start debating the match up. Still waiting on counters. Not a single shred of augment was made for Naruto yet.
 

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Without the cave, Kabuto loses his most dangerous techniques(muki tensei and white rage). Manda gets destroyed by one FRS. The clones will overwhelm Kabuto with their shunshin+FRS combos too. This isn't even a match
 

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Without the cave, Kabuto loses his most dangerous techniques(muki tensei and white rage).

That just means Naruto doesnt get one shot. Kabuto has to actually put work for this location.


Manda gets destroyed by one FRS.

No... The scaling of this jutsu barley covers normal summonings. Manda 2 completely dwarfs.


The clones will overwhelm Kabuto with their shunshin+FRS combos too. This isn't even a match


Kabuto isn't getting overwhelm since making FRS doesn't move the same speed as Naruto's Shushin. Manda 2 clears up clones with a tail swipe.
 

BenjerminGaye

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Without the cave, Kabuto loses his most dangerous techniques(muki tensei and white rage). Manda gets destroyed by one FRS. The clones will overwhelm Kabuto with their shunshin+FRS combos too. This isn't even a match

White Rage still acts acts a flash bang. The only effect it loses is the paralysis but that in it of it self was a side effect to the "bang" of white rage bouncing off the walls.

Muki tensai is still in effect.

Manda 2 is much to big to be put down by a frs.


@apex. I'll reply when I get the chance. As of right now long posts is beyond me.
 

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White Rage still acts acts a flash bang. The only effect it loses is the paralysis but that in it of it self was a side effect to the "bang" of white rage bouncing off the walls.

Muki tensai is still in effect.

Manda 2 is much to big to be put down by a frs.


@apex. I'll reply when I get the chance. As of right now long posts is beyond me.

Lml alright man, I feel you. Long posts can get irritating
 

TRE MERCER

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Kabuto wins high diff.

-Manda 2 clears off field of overwhelming blitzing clones (since they go poof in 1 hit, and Manda 2 hit box would be as much as Juubi Tail)

-Field of bones would also be dangerous for Naruto, considering recent feat shows KCM is not good with piercing damage.

-Kabuto perception/reaction eventually adapts to Naruto speed, then CQC becomes too dangerous for Naruto:

1. Kabuto chakra scapel w/ increase taijutsu, due to SM. Gets internal damage, and dies. Plus...
2. Kabuto's D'N'A puts more pressure on him and Naruto has to multitask here. Dealing with:
2a.) Kimmimaro's unorthodox dances
2b.) Orochimaru's Five Prolong Seal
2c.) Sakon's Parasite transfer.


- If ever encounter FRS, he can liquify his insides, so it will cut right pass him, instead of getting the same treatment as Raikage. And if it ever explodes on him, Kidomaru's Gold armor says it blocks all chakra, so the it reduces the attack power, which Kabuto recovers with ease after.
Nope Naruto wins we've been here b4.
 

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No... The scaling of this jutsu barley covers normal summonings. Manda 2 completely dwarfs.
Doesn't matter. Deidara's C1 isn't nearly as big or destructive as FRS, yet it tossed around the giant turtle(something bigger than Manda). He will go poof after sustaining heavy damaged on the affected body parts due to pain. Not to mention, nothing stops Naruto to target the head to be sure

Kabuto isn't getting overwhelm since making FRS doesn't move the same speed as Naruto's Shushin. Manda 2 clears up clones with a tail swipe.
Did you see the fight against Sandaime Raikage? They can transport it with chakra arms and even alter their directions. Alongside with his high level of shunshin, it would be easy to tag Kabuto. Not to mention, FRS is as fast as Susanoo arrows, something Kabuto was barely dodging. He won't dodge multiple of them
 

Brother Numpsay

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Doesn't matter. Deidara's C1 isn't nearly as big or destructive as FRS, yet it tossed around the giant turtle(something bigger than Manda). He will go poof after sustaining heavy damaged on the affected body parts due to pain. Not to mention, nothing stops Naruto to target the head to be sure

Except nothing was stated which bomb Deidara was using. We know for sure that Kabuto asked for a big bomb so Deidara made him a big bomb. Big bomb>FRS. Inferior version of Manda could withstand partial blast of C0, so a stronger version should be able to take multiple FRS before going "poof". Till then, clones get swiped off the face of the earth.

Did you see the fight against Sandaime Raikage? They can transport it with chakra arms and even alter their directions. Alongside with his high level of shunshin, it would be easy to tag Kabuto. Not to mention, FRS is as fast as Susanoo arrows, something Kabuto was barely dodging. He won't dodge multiple of them

So what if he can transport them. All I said that his shunshin level doesn't = the speed of making a Rasengan. So it isn't an issure setting up defenses, like Kidomaru's webs.

Not to mention thats completely false statement that FRS = arrow speed. We outright seen that its the same speed as Sasuke Enton throwing projectile. Which is slower then arrow
 

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Doesn't matter. Deidara's C1 isn't nearly as big or destructive as FRS, yet it tossed around the giant turtle(something bigger than Manda). He will go poof after sustaining heavy damaged on the affected body parts due to pain. Not to mention, nothing stops Naruto to target the head to be sure

Did you see the fight against Sandaime Raikage? They can transport it with chakra arms and even alter their directions. Alongside with his high level of shunshin, it would be easy to tag Kabuto. Not to mention, FRS is as fast as Susanoo arrows, something Kabuto was barely dodging. He won't dodge multiple of them
Good post but that C1 taking out Manda 2 was terrible logic.
 
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