KCM Minato vs healthy Itachi and DSM Kabuto

[Shura]

Funny cuz you(along with some here) never actually presented a decent argument or refuted my own points besides just not wanting him to use them. So without arguments, i can't take you seriously sorry

Well, I don't give a shit about any of these three characters so I see no reason as to why I should actually give a whole argument for one side.

 

[Strict]

Minato didn't show to use Tajuu Kagebunshin no Jutsu; Kyuubi's Chakra isn't an excuse since he splits his own Chakra and thus weakens his moves.

And as for a bunch of clones doing a blitz.

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The more clones are made, the more chakra is wasted and the weaker they get, just as the Hiraishin gets more inefficient.

Furthermore, Minato didn't display the ability to use Tajuu Kagebunshin no Jutsu; Kyuubi's Chakra shouldn't be an excuse. Despite Karasu Bunshin waste much less Chakra by using the crows Chakra as a medium, no one would say Itachi is capable of using Tajuu Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu.

 

[Strict]

Grave misinterpretation, which is the root of an unfortunately quite common misbelief.

Kage Bunshin are just as susceptible to Genjutsu as their creator; displayed not just when Kakashi's Bunshin was, unmistakably, caught within Itachi's realm [

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], but further when Hiruzen's Bunshin were completely robbed of their vision by Hashirama's Koku Angyou [

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]. The marginal difference is that Itachi's intention was mental torture, which apparently doesn't affect Bunshin. That is what he commented on. It's not the Genjutsu itself which was ineffective; the outcome was. Had Itachi's aim been paralysis, as inflicted by Kasegui no Jutsu [

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], the Bunshin would have been unable to move.

My man. Tajuu Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu w/ Genjutsu > Minato's Tajuu Kagebunshin no Jutsu. :*

 

[Rainbow Dash]

I don't get why Minato supporters always use hype in these arguments instead of using panel feats.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Furthermore, Minato didn't display the ability to use Tajuu Kagebunshin no Jutsu;

lol.

I don't get why Minato supporters always use hype in these arguments instead of using panel feats.

They don't have to be Minato's feats.

KCM feats are enough.

 

[Bogard]

Minato didn't show to use Tajuu Kagebunshin no Jutsu; Kyuubi's Chakra isn't an excuse since he splits his own Chakra and thus weakens his moves.

And as for a bunch of clones doing a blitz.

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The more clones are made, the more chakra is wasted and the weaker they get, just as the Hiraishin gets more inefficient.

Furthermore, Minato didn't display the ability to use Tajuu Kagebunshin no Jutsu; Kyuubi's Chakra shouldn't be an excuse. Despite Karasu Bunshin waste much less Chakra by using the crows Chakra as a medium, no one would say Itachi is capable of using Tajuu Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu.

How do you want him to show Tajuu Kage Bunshin when without an arm he can't even form handseals? Concerning Tobirama's statement, he didn't said it in the *********** translation. He said

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with clones and he said it for a reason. Their opponent

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, something he noticed when

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used hiraishin on him earlier with his explosive bomb

Notice he says "He countered it in that instant" It was an instant moment. Only that current Obito is beyond simply fast

Hiraishin with clones has never shown to be slow. Notice there is no difference between or after teleportation(smoke remains, Tobirama's position, and so on)

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Concerning the Tajuu kage bunshin argument you're wrong. You can create as much clones as you want as long as you've chakra for the creation since like you've said, it divides evenly your chakra among the clones

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The problem is not there. The problem is in your capacity to maintain them

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It's for that reason why even a tired Kakashi after a battle against Zabuza

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Managed to create more than 20clones

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But like he said himself, he couldn't have maintain them or do something consequent with them. It was only to fool them

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In the scenario of Kakashi's feat, let's say he has 1/100 of his chakra left and he made say 50 clones, the total chakra in each one would be 0.02/100. This is why Kakashi tried to bluff with the clones, if it actually came down to it Kakashi wouldn't be able fight effectively with any one of them. Not only that but with a chakra so close to zero, you can die very quickly depending on the efforts you make while/after using the technique, since when your chakra reach zero, you could die if you have no stamina left

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So you can create as much clone as you want, but depending on the amount of chakra in each clone, it's not only hard to maintain them, but you put yourself in a life or death situation if you overexert yourself. It's for that reason that this jutsu is not suited for people with little chakra, reason why those type of ninja usually use a limited amount of clone during fights in order not to get your chakra go to waste uselessly

If you use one clone, him and the original will have a half of chakra(50%)
If you make 2clones, it's split in 3, so roughly 33.33% of chakra for each
If you make 3clones, it's split in 4, so 25% of chakra for each
If you make 4clones, it's split in 5, so 10% of chakra for each
... and so on

It's for that reason that people with low stamina like Itachi never use plenty of clones, but with Minato having an almost unlimited chakra at his disposition he can use and maintain them when and how long he wants

 

[Minator93]

Five KCM Clones with med Diff take this U_U

 

[Rohasu]

itachi and kabuto win high diff, itachi ms gen plus susanno and izanami (or izagami) plus kabuto ability for edo tensie (near perfect) can overwhelm minato. i hate to say that as i am a big fan of minato but i see no chance of him wining.

 

[ItachiStillSolos]

Perhaps Minato. Btw Bogard, Goshun Mawashi requires two different Hiraishin seals, in other words Minato can't perform it with a clone, he requires another S/T user like Tobirama.

 

[Bogard]

Perhaps Minato. Btw Bogard, Goshun Mawashi requires two different Hiraishin seals, in other words Minato can't perform it with a clone, he requires another S/T user like Tobirama.

Where does it say it requires 2different seals? It would make no sense in this case since i doubt either Minato or Tobirama knew they would have been revived to use a technique they learned alive :|

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Perhaps Minato. Btw Bogard, Goshun Mawashi requires two different Hiraishin seals, in other words Minato can't perform it with a clone, he requires another S/T user like Tobirama.

Lies.

It's just FTG used by 2 users. Replace Tobirama with a clone, same thing.

 

[ItachiStillSolos]

Where does it say it requires 2different seals? It would make no sense in this case since i doubt either Minato or Tobirama knew they would have been revived to use a technique they learned alive :|

Nvm, I read it somewhere in a debate turns out the guy was using Naruto wikia. :|

Lies.

It's just FTG used by 2 users. Replace Tobirama with a clone, same thing.

My bad, nevermind. Zzz

 

[Strict]

Viz translation also speaks about the speed concerning Hiraishin with clones. You just used the translation which suits you the most. *********** tends to translate some statements quite freely, making Minato call his son a slick bastard and Kurama his other half a sexy beast.

But yes, Minato should be capable to use quite an amount of Bunshins the way Naruto do as he has the same requirements as latter. Tajuu Kagebunshin no Jutsu is said to be used by Hokage level Shinobi what includes Minato. And he has the Kyuubi as well. But using such an amount of clones would still lower the quality of each clone and consumes Chakra. In this case quality rather than quantity applies. Minato could have used a considerably higher amount of clones already before, when he used one instead of using 1-2. While it's true that Minato couldn't use handseals on his own with a lost arm, he could create an arm of Chakra to use a handseal, theoretically.

I however tend to Minato in this thread to be honest, as BM, Hiraishin AND Edo form combined is quite haxxed. He could even teleport himself while in Bijuumode.

It's likely he could give Kurama's Chakra even to his toads.

 

[Owarij]

Lmao how is this an argument? Kabuto uses white rage jutsu, Minato can't see, hear, or utilize chakra properly, so any clones he has up or intends on making will just disperse.. just as Sasuke was unable to keep up the chakra for Sussano..
Kabuto instantly follows up with a nice sage powered sound genjutsu to make sure Minato stays in place.. and Itachi ends it with amaterasu

People should note , OP never said Minato is edo.. he said alive, and healthy.. and can use KCM mode .. Not that it would matter alot

 

[Strict]

Don't get mad, I slipped through that alive thing. :b But op says Bijuudama is restricted, not Bijuumode. When Itachi managed to activate his Susanoo while the White Rage technique was active, Minato couldn't maintain the Bijuumode even with the influence of the Ninetails itself? Not that it would matter a lot that Itachi stays under the effect of White Rage too, Minato could create a Bunshin or two while in Bijuumode or teleport himself to another location after White Rage ends. Even if Minato comes under the affect of a sound Genjutsu, isn't Hiraishin still working when Itachi and Sasuke, despite they were not able to move their muscles, use a Genjutsu, which in return requires Chakra control?

It's also funny that you believe Minato will be distracted by the Genjutsu when his body and hearing is under the full influence of the White Rage technique. Sending sound Genjutsu as a layer on top of the White Rage technique seems rather ridiculous. How is he hearing that sound when the White Rage technique is numbing his hearing and body, hmm? At least don't make a shitty scenario like this.

Edit: Oh, I was confused, thread title said KCM but as Bijuudama was restricted it meant for me he still considers Minato to use the Kyuubi avatar. I mean KCM isn't using a Bijuudama in any way. ...or he, as many others consider Minato's mode to be KCM always as his appearance doesn't have the same characteristics as Naruto's. Well, why restricting the Bijuudama then.

 

[Owarij]

Get mad? Bijuudama? Didn't even mention that , Itachi could do that because he was edo, he wasn't experiencing the full effects and pain of white rage like an alive human would, i.e Sasuke... which means for him, non edo, he won't be making clones, and what does the nine tails chakra cloak have to do with chakra control... the cloak isn't going to help him get out of the situation he's in... And Teleport where? considering in a fight, leaving the battle area should mean forfeit.. and OP hasn't stated whether he has marks anywhere else... Can't deny, there is a possibility that Hirashin would work though by simple logic it won't work.. We already know that a genjutsu user can make it so that its impossible for the ninja to cast abilities until theyve broken it and regained their sense... just as they can make it impossible for them to move, and actually Take control of their body..

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That's because genjutsu takes control of your chakra flow... and to utilze hirashin, Minato would yet need chakra control.. considering the knowledge of the opponent here is full.. Kabuto can just alter minato's attempt to use chakra since once again, he has full control of the chakra flow

Ofc, it means that kabuto just didn't think Itachi would think of such a method of escaping the genjutsu and only used it to paralyze them,
but once again, even if it can be used you're insinuating that Minato is allowed to completely leave the vicinity of the battle area.. sip some tea, then return? that's running... However , if he tries teleporting anywhere close to where the battlefield is, he'll still be in the genjutsu considering the chakra from the sound genjutsu is still in his brain, and thus he would still be paralysed ...

Ofc the technique won't overlap.. The White rage is cause any clones minato made to disperse.. which was in reply to bogard saying he starts the fight by making 20 of them... they can attack while he's in this state.. but if your argument is that he should still be able to utilize some form of chakra and teleports away, esp considering since its an open battlefield.. then ending the white rage and using Tayuyas sound ability to hold him down is the best option... Considering Minato has 0 genjutsu handling feats.. and the genjutsu itself is improved with nature energy.. Minato isn't getting out..

Whether or not he has kunai scattered on the battlefield doesn't matter.. Kabuto has muki tensei and thus full control of the earth...he can impale in all the spots Minato's kunai has landed given that he has...

 

[Tobiramas]

KCM Minato has kurama, right? Genjutsu shouldn't work

 

[Strict]

Yes that was my thought as well. Genjutsu is based on the same principle, whether visual or sound. Pain is one way to free oneself from Genjutsu and Shikamaru demonstrated it while being under sound Genjutsu, too. So Kurama should be able to free Minato from that Genjutsu and stabilize his Chakra flow.

But yeah, I argued for that battle under other circumstances; as you saw I considered Minato to be an Edo who uses Bijuumode.

 

[Smd]

you guys do know kishi made a statement

KCM naruto speed=Itachi at the least.

Adding DSM kabuto with his stolen powers? overkill.


I think healthy itachi would be enough for him

 

[Owarij]

Yes that was my thought as well. Genjutsu is based on the same principle, whether visual or sound. Pain is one way to free oneself from Genjutsu and Shikamaru demonstrated it while being under sound Genjutsu, too. So Kurama should be able to free Minato from that Genjutsu and stabilize his Chakra flow.

But yeah, I argued for that battle under other circumstances; as you saw I considered Minato to be an Edo who uses Bijuumode.

As far as yin kurama is concerned, we've only seen him being friendly to minato solely because of his other half and naruto, we know it is possible to be a perfect jinchuriki and yet still not be immune to genjutsu(Yagura).... saying that Minato talking to yin kurama for a few minutes, gives him the connection and dual battle experience of hachibi and bee who has been together would be a misstatement

And i'm aware there has been one or two genjutsus where the user could utilize chakra... but there has also been the ones that shut the user down completely, even some that took away conciousness... I'm saying, based on the description that Jiraya gave, the genjutsu caster has full control of the person's chakra flow..and with that coupled with the fact that Kabuto has full knowledge of Minato and his ftg.. he would make a prevention to stop him from casting it , if he could... by disrupting the attempt at casting abilities