[Theory] Karura and Naga

Rabbit Teth

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While many people may call this coincidence, Kishi directly represented Sobojo in the manga recently :-







Similar much ?

Look at the Armour plates, the Jewel on the Forehead, The Wings, the long nose, the clothes and the hair. Sobojo and Sauske's Susanoo are complete duplicates of each other.

And Sauske has the Moon seal, is connected with hawks and Susanoo is called "Destruction Incarnate".

The above are all the traits of Sobojo.
I don’t disagree with any of the above. Sojobo is a big influence on Japanese culture and clearly influenced the design of many of the characters and techniques.

Interestingly Sasuke’s new technique is a power attributed to the Tengu, the magic of moving instantaneously from place to place without using their wings, which also goes along with his other power, Genjutsu, which is the Tengu’s magic to appear uninvited in the dreams of the living.

But, and it’s a big BUT … This statue:

is not Sojobo.

That statue is Karura, or Garuda to give him his original name, who is the template upon whom the Tengu are based – Garuda dates back thousands of years (3-4), Sojobo hundreds. The orb in that Statue’s lap is the Nyoi Hōju – which I go into briefly above and has no equivalent in legends of Sojobo to my knowledge.

The Legend of Garuda ties in directly with the story of Hagoromo. Garuda’s mother, Vinata (Kaguya) had two children, Aruna (Hamura) and Garuda (Hagoromo).

Vinata is a princess and the second wife of a character called Kashyapa (no equivalent yet – and maybe there won’t be though he’d be Hagoromo’s father). Kashyapa’s first wife is Kadru, who has 1000 children by Kashyapa – who are the snakes. Vinata agrees to marry Kashyapa on the condition that she only have two children but that they are more powerful than any of Kadru’s. When Vinata gives birth she has to wait for her eggs to hatch during which time the snakes rule the world. Vinata grows impatient at waiting and so breaks open one of the eggs (Aruna). Aruna curses his mother to serve the snakes as retribution.

Garuda attempts to free his mother by striking a deal with the snakes. They agree to release Vinata if Garuda will bring them the Elixir of Life - called Amrita (sort of equivalent to Ambrosia – the source of the power of the gods). This will grant them immortality…kind of like what Orochimaru has always sought –

I think this is the Amrita, the fruit:

also note that like Vinata, Kaguya is a princess.

Garuda defeats all of the gods in his struggle to fetch Amrita, but on the way back to delivering it to the snakes, the god of the sky approaches Garuda and asks him not to. Garuda agrees but he knows he needs to release his mother from the control of the snakes. Garuda therefore delivers the Amrita to the snakes but tells them that they must perform a ritual before eating the Amrita. The god of the sky, Indra, then swoops in and steals the fruit back from the snakes but not before they’d licked the Amrita. This burnt through their tongues giving them the forked tongue and gave them an incomplete immortality that led them to shed their skins:

I think that this legend has been adapted to the Naruto world loosely. Kaguya has somehow fallen under the control of the snakes and is inadvertently helping them get the fruit of the Shinju (Amrita). She might be doing this because of a curse from Aruna (Hamura) or because she has been bitten by a snake and has its venom (cursed seal) inside her. I am as yet unclear on how BZ ties into this as he could be Hamura, he could be Naga’s venom or he could be Kadru. If Hagoromo is Garuda then he will be the one to free his mother.

I think that Hagoromo’s power will take the form of a giant bird of prey that burns like the sun. This has been foreshadowed in a couple of areas in the Manga. I note Karura as the mother of Gaara who while she is not related to Hagoromo, the use of Garuda’s Japanese name foreshadows the Garuda legend just as Kurama, the Kyuubi, has nothing to do with the legend of Sojobo except its name. The giant burning bird of prey has been foreshadowed in a couple of appearances.

The first is in Deidara’s explosions. His C Zero technique is one step up from his C4 Garuda technique which takes the form of a giant explosion that has a snow angel outline but is in fact a giant flaming bird:

Interestingly Deidara is first recruited in a temple to Karura. You can tell that the temple belongs to Karura because of the fiery halo’s on the statues that stand along the walls. These fiery halo's are known as Karura Enkō:

Note also the Sun Halo’s on Naruto’s parents

NB2 the CO, Garuda, is what cleanses Deidara of the venom inside him which looks a lot like BZ:


The second clue is in the appearance of Neji on the front cover of volume 64 where Neji’s flame cloak takes on the appearance of a phoenix. I think that this is instead supposed to represent Garuda / Hagoromo:


I doubt whether we’ll ever get to see the full Garuda form until Orochimaru pulls out his Dragon Sage Mode. If / When Naga shows himself (assuming Orochimaru is the fake identity assumed by Oro to fit into the Leaf) then I think the only thing to match him is Hagoromo’s feather mantle (Hagoromo means feather mantle) which is a combination of the hawk:

and the blazing sun:

…working together

to remake the power of this:

The chief deity of the Fire Nation in the Fire Temple.

But I’m getting ahead of myself. I think that before any of that happens we’ll need to see what happened in the fight between Hagoromo, Hamura and Kaguya.

If I’m right about Hagoromo being the Garuda then I think that under the feet of Hagoromo and Hamura, just out of shot, stand Gamamaru and the White Snake Sage wearing helmets (Kabuto) tied with Shinobi-no-o (the bands):


Oops i accidently posted the thanks!! XD

Thats not a rinnegan
No worries, and thanks for the unthanks, I wouldn't want to confuse the two.

These aren't Rinnegan either:

but they show people under the influence of a Rinnegan user. In the same way I think the Hawk was working for Hagoromo. Those extra circles on the Hawk's eyes are not an accidental slip of the wrist on the part of the artist.

:mad:_@:
 
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ROHAN

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Well after reading all that, I think you may be right about it.

Question: At the entrance of the fire temples, there are two statues. If one is Garuda then what is the other ?
 

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Well after reading all that, I think you may be right about it.

Question: At the entrance of the fire temples, there are two statues. If one is Garuda then what is the other ?
I think the statues outside the Fire Temple are simply Tengu intended to represent Indra and Asura (the transmigrants inhabiting Sasuke and Naruto), Garuda is the bird man inside the temple. The Tengu (of whom Sojobo is one in Japan) are the children of Garuda (if not literally then they branch off from the myths of the Hindu deity). Karura also ties in with the Lotus family that I go into in my other theory Gods and Monsters. I think Kishi is taking artistic license and melding together two distinct mythologies that also happen to be connected in real life. Garuda and Naga is more of a Hindu myth, the Lotus Family is more a Japanese Buddhist myth. Karura belongs to both mythologies.

How closely Kishi will stick to these myths, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they are the inspirations for a lot of this arc.
 

ROHAN

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So, unbelivably your story version solved a big plot hole in my version of the plot in Naruto.

Sobojo, the Tengu god representing Corruption, darkness and the moon has 100 children with his first wife.

Since, Sobojo spread his corruption among his children, these children took the form of Dragons. The strrongest among all of them was Orochimaru.

During, this phase, Sobojo falls in love with Kaguya, the Sun Goddess. But, before they could marry, The Shinju imprisions Sobojo in it's fruit.

As, such Kaguya sets out to free Sobojo and requests for Orochimaru's help and he agrees.
( This is where your story version solves a big plothole. I had no idea why Orochimaru would help Kaguya. But if he was Sobojo's son, it would make perfect sense).

Both Orochimaru and Kaguya join forces and succed in releasing Sobojo and he puts the Shinju in hibernation.

Sobojo and Kaguya marry ( the true union of Light and Darkness). They have two sons Hagoromo and Hamura.

Sobojo as a symbol of thier love puts his esscence in Hagoromo making him Garuda the Sun god.

But, The Shinju breaks out of it's hibernation and re-seals Sobojo. The Shinju decides to punish the wrong-doers but Kaguya shifts the blame on Orochimaru.

The Shinju curses Orochimaru and his race of brothers and turns them from Dragons to Serpents. This fills Orochimaru with hatred and he keeps on transmigrating.

And as such we see two people obbessed with the fruit or to be more specific the release of Sobojo, Kaguya his wife and Orochimaru his son.
 
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Trea

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Great thread I really enjoyed it. I too think the hawk is Hagoromo's way to check in on Sasuke occasionally. He did mention he periodically checks on the transmigrants. He would have been doing it more so with these two since he realized they might have a chance to succeed.

I also think Orochimaru is going to play a bigger role. I don't buy for a minute that he just wants to see what Sasuke will do. I thought that was pretty lame when he said it. Outside of saving Tsunade he hasn't done anything major or done anything to put himself in jeopardy, so I think he's just biding his time and waiting for the opportunity to act on his real reason for being there. It seems like a waste to have brought him back to have him continue just to watch Sasuke.

I like the way Kishi integrates mythology into Naruto. I enjoyed reading your posts. thanks for the work.
 

ROHAN

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I think Kishi pretty much proved the Rabbit-Snake-Hawk symbolism by making Kaguya transforming into a Rabbit.

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Leinad Sotam

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Incredible theory !! Let me see if I got this ... Oro is Naga which is a bad guy... and Karura is good so what character is Karura symbolized in ?? And from that panel you showed of the Snake eating the rabbit does that mean Oro is gonna finish of Kaguya because some chapters ago we saw someone falling from that branch when Madara activated IT !

Could that be Orochimaru ?
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Thoughts ?
 

Rabbit Teth

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I think Kishi pretty much proved the Rabbit-Snake-Hawk symbolism by making Kaguya transforming into a Rabbit.

You must be registered for see images
I write these theories but I still get surprised when they come true. Will have to wait and see on the snake. If the rain holds up I'll do an update with pictures (finally figured it out with the aid of some youtube guides and am surprised at how easy it is - takes time though).

Incredible theory !! Let me see if I got this ... Oro is Naga which is a bad guy... and Karura is good so what character is Karura symbolized in ?? And from that panel you showed of the Snake eating the rabbit does that mean Oro is gonna finish of Kaguya because some chapters ago we saw someone falling from that branch when Madara activated IT !

Could that be Orochimaru ?
You must be registered for see images

Thoughts ?
I'm on shaky ground when it comes to actually naming Oro. Naga is sometimes a great snake and sometimes he's one of many Nagas that are half siblings to Garuda. All the pieces are in place for Hamura to be linked to the snakes if the Statues are anything to go by as well. I'll put together an update.

I don't buy Oro being in IT same as I don't buy Oro being caught in Genjutsu (but that just rouses some Itachi fan hate). There's always a back-up and always an ulterior motive when he gets caught out… which s why I think he might be a lot older within the story than what the manga has yet revealed. Pieces don't add up and his off hand remarks often reveal more than direct statements.

I've seen that falling guy theory before - It wouldn't surprise me if it was Oro. He should be immune to being caught by any type of Mokuton - he likely developed Anti-Mokuton Venom for just such scenarios:



As for Karura - I'm gonna start calling it Garuda since I keep on writing Kurama by accident and it is less confusing - he can be any bird - A Kite, an Eagle or a Hawk. He serves as a mount for various deities (including Indra) - which is why I think Sasuke's eagle has Rinnegan in one panel. (see above).
 
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Leinad Sotam

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I'm on shaky ground when it comes to actually naming Oro. Naga is sometimes a great snake and sometimes he's one of many Nagas that are half siblings to Garuda. All the pieces are in place for Hamura to be linked to the snakes if the Statues are anything to go by as well. I'll put together an update.

I don't buy Oro being in IT same as I don't buy Oro being caught in Genjutsu (but that just rouses some Itachi fan hate). There's always a back-up and always an ulterior motive when he gets caught out… which s why I think he might be a lot older within the story than what the manga has yet revealed. Pieces don't add up and his off hand remarks often reveal more than direct statements.

I've seen that falling guy theory before - It wouldn't surprise me if it was Oro. He should be immune to being caught by any type of Mokuton - he likely developed Anti-Mokuton Venom for just such scenarios:



As for Karura - I'm gonna start calling it Garuda since I keep on writing Kurama by accident and it is less confusing - he can be any bird - A Kite, an Eagle or a Hawk. He serves as a mount for various deities (including Indra) - which is why I think Sasuke's eagle has Rinnegan in one panel. (see above).
Thanks for the reply. I was a bit confused on what/who Karura and Naga is.
 

NaruSasuRival

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Aaahh! Can you see how it is painful to do research. Well, it is even more painful for me to read a long theory like this just to end up finding that someone has built on the wrong facts. I always ask myself why they failed to see such obvious facts, and I am unable to figure out the answer. Maybe, they just don't want to see the true manga.

FYI, the image you showed to prove that Hagoromo was watching over Sasuke and Naruto have nothing to do with Hagoromo. I won't dive into Sasuke's case because I think his fanboys and girls are already hurt from chapter 688. Concerning Naruto, the Rinnegan you showed is Obito's Rinnegan. To see that, you need to do an unbiased reading rather than reading to support your theory. so here is the light starting fromchapter 643:

(1) Obito in his flying gududama blob. The Rinnegan side is out, and Naruto and Minato prepare to bump fists.

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(2) The scene continue here
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(3) Here, it continue, and you can see in the last panel that Obito is closing the blob
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(4) Here, Obito is not shown, but I want the sequence to be continuous
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(5) This is the last page of chapter 643, and the first panel show Obito's blob almost closed.
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(6) This is the first page of 644, and Obito is not shown. Just keep it for a continuous sequence
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(7) This page that you misineterpreted is the continuity of the same action. It shows Obito's Rinnegan, and Obito is puzzled by what going on with Minato and Naruto. The Rinnegan shown is Obito's Rinnegan, not Hagoromo's.

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(8) Finally, here is the reason Obito shieled himself, and the reason Minato and Naruto mixed their chakra - that is Obito was about to fire many Jubidama.

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Note that I am not bashing your theory. Rather, I am pissed off by theories based on false facts. They are the reason that great chapters such as chapter 688 are bashed. These false theories built up predictions based on imaginary interpretations of the manga facts simply because the theorists do not read the manga properly. Also, I am not saying that your idea is bad. just know that even if your idea is good, the facts that you use to support them are not true. Hagoromo, whether he was watching over Naruto and Sasuke were never in the hawk, nor in the panel you showed.

See, hagoromo can appear only if three conditions are met: (1) Indra's chakra, (3) Ashura's, and (3) Kyuubi's. Hagoromo said this, and BZ tried to say the same by saying that based on the power of the transmigrants, they can meet hagoromo.
 

Rabbit Teth

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Aaahh! Can you see how it is painful to do research. Well, it is even more painful for me to read a long theory like this just to end up finding that someone has built on the wrong facts. I always ask myself why they failed to see such obvious facts, and I am unable to figure out the answer. Maybe, they just don't want to see the true manga.

Note that I am not bashing your theory. Rather, I am pissed off by theories based on false facts. They are the reason that great chapters such as chapter 688 are bashed. These false theories built up predictions based on imaginary interpretations of the manga facts simply because the theorists do not read the manga properly. Also, I am not saying that your idea is bad. just know that even if your idea is good, the facts that you use to support them are not true. Hagoromo, whether he was watching over Naruto and Sasuke were never in the hawk, nor in the panel you showed.

See, hagoromo can appear only if three conditions are met: (1) Indra's chakra, (3) Ashura's, and (3) Kyuubi's. Hagoromo said this, and BZ tried to say the same by saying that based on the power of the transmigrants, they can meet hagoromo.
Thanks for your counter but I still disagree. In each of the situations where we see the RInnegan it could easily be argued that the Rinnegan shown are just the eyes of the opponent. However in each situation the eyes are shown highlighted and the face is blacked out. This to me signifies that the eyes have meaning over and above the conditions of each situation -

Examples
1.
2.
3.
According to this theory this is because there is something more at play. My theory is that the hawk represents Hagoromo watching out for Sasuke. Hagoromo is noted to have watched over his sons as they've transmigrated:

His symbolism according to my theory is deeply connected to the Garuda who is represented by among other things the Hawk (which I set out some of the reasons for above and which I'll come back to in an update since this thread is technically closed - it was revived by Dragonor because he sees the Rabbit Juubi as tying in with another piece of potential Symbolic Foreshadowing that I highlighted above)

I mark this part of the theory under symbolic foreshadowing because I consider that the images have meaning beyond the apparent in the context in which they are placed - I'll come back to this point in a new thread (… I'd appreciate any constructive criticism you have when I post it). Your argument is entirely valid but misses the point. Hagoromo claims to have watched over Indra and Asura. We have many examples of the Rinnegan (the Sage's Eyes) mysteriously watching over Naruto and Sasuke. While most of the examples can be put down to the enemy of the moment watching from afar - Sasuke's Hawk cannot. The hawk's eye has too many rings. Moreover this ties in with the symbolism related to Garuda - who is referenced in the Manga twice, is represented by similar statues in the real world to that in the Fire Temple and whose story runs in concert to Hagoromo's.

The Hawk has Rinnegan
...and as for Manga facts... It has already been established that Rinnegan have a shared field of vision:
It has also been shown that the Sharingan housed in a different host's body can transmit images to the original owner:
Even if you dismiss the unusual framing of the Rinnegan, the otherwise random Hawk with Rinnegan and the statements about Hagoromo watching over Indra and Asura - there is still a case to be made that Hagoromo can see everything that those who use his eyes can see. The Rinnegan are personal to Hagoromo. He is immortal and while his eyes were lost for generations, even when they were reformed, they are still his eyes.

Anyway, I appreciate the points you make but I still respectfully disagree.
 
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NaruSasuRival

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Thanks for your counter but I still disagree. In each of the situations where we see the RInnegan it could easily be argued that the Rinnegan shown are just the eyes of the opponent. However in each situation the eyes are shown highlighted and the face is blacked out. This to me signifies that the eyes have meaning over and above the conditions of each situation -

Examples
1.
2.
3.
According to this theory this is because there is something more at play. My theory is that the hawk represents Hagoromo watching out for Sasuke. Hagoromo is noted to have watched over his sons as they've transmigrated:

His symbolism according to my theory is deeply connected to the Garuda who is represented by among other things the Hawk (which I set out some of the reasons for above and which I'll come back to in an update since this thread is technically closed - it was revived by Dragonor because he sees the Rabbit Juubi as tying in with another piece of potential Symbolic Foreshadowing that I highlighted above)

I mark this part of the theory under symbolic foreshadowing because I consider that the images have meaning beyond the apparent in the context in which they are placed - I'll come back to this point in a new thread (… I'd appreciate any constructive criticism you have when I post it). Your argument is entirely valid but misses the point. Hagoromo claims to have watched over Indra and Asura. We have many examples of the Rinnegan (the Sage's Eyes) mysteriously watching over Naruto and Sasuke. While most of the examples can be put down to the enemy of the moment watching from afar - Sasuke's Hawk cannot. The hawk's eye has too many rings. Moreover this ties in with the symbolism related to Garuda - who is referenced in the Manga twice, is represented by similar statues in the real world to that in the Fire Temple and whose story runs in concert to Hagoromo's.

The Hawk has Rinnegan
...and as for Manga facts... It has already been established that Rinnegan have a shared field of vision:
It has also been shown that the Sharingan housed in a different host's body can transmit images to the original owner:
Even if you dismiss the unusual framing of the Rinnegan, the otherwise random Hawk with Rinnegan and the statements about Hagoromo watching over Indra and Asura - there is still a case to be made that Hagoromo can see everything that those who use his eyes can see. The Rinnegan are personal to Hagoromo. He is immortal and while his eyes were lost for generations, even when they were reformed, they are still his eyes.

Anyway, I appreciate the points you make but I still respectfully disagree.
As I said in other thread, each person has the right to believe what he wants. After reading the sequence I gave you, if you think the Rinnegan you showed is Hagoromo's Rinnegan, then continue to feed your imagination. Sorry, I don't continue an argument where the poster does not keep my evidences.
 

Rabbit Teth

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As I said in other thread, each person has the right to believe what he wants. After reading the sequence I gave you, if you think the Rinnegan you showed is Hagoromo's Rinnegan, then continue to feed your imagination. Sorry, I don't continue an argument where the poster does not keep my evidences.
I'm not discarding your evidence, I just shortened your post for convenience - it makes it easier to follow the argument. No insult was intended.You're welcome to disagree and collect evidence to disprove my own and others' theories (personally I consider it a favour - it helps me sharpen the theories against making broad unsubstantiated assertions). Really though, this is a minor point within the context of the wider theory. You collected a lot of material on that one point and I see exactly what you're saying but your argument doesn't actually disprove anything I'm saying. Nonetheless thanks for your input. I'm putting together a more complete collection of artistic parallels to illustrate my point - if you have any problem with any of the arguments I'm making then I look forward to hearing your points - mistakes and errors slip into my theories all the time, even if nobody else notices them.
 
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