Kamui > Yata

[Strict]

I Agree. It's like suggesting that the Yata Mirror can negate a technique like Hiraishin working on Susano'o and its user, which is absurd.

It's not. You know that this comparison itself was absurd.

 

[Bogard]

No Bogard, you are just subjective now. Databook states that no defense is useful against Kamui, while the same Databook states that any technique loses its effect in front of the shield. And Kamui is a technique.

But I know what it leads to to lecture you.

That hype is valid until it meets the almighty kamui which is stated not to be comparable to other techniques from the simple fact that the void absorbs anything like a black hole in the universe including shields like yata, reason why databook states no defense is possible. It's a logical thing

But i know what it leads to lecture you as well

They're both obvious hyperboles the way the databook portrays them, but by givin hype, kamui indeed> Yata

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Of course son

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Yata can't block something that never comes in contact with it.

Already know this, but the point of my thread is to say it warps even yata

It changes it's properties to that of the attack....All astral,spiritual,ninjutsu,physical lose it's meaning

Yata changes to Kamui propteries

Kamui cancels Kamui [Manga fact]

Yata is a Mirror not a shield

Oh really? And what is it then?

Well, what I've learned so far is every Jutsu has a weakness and although it have not been stated in the manga, I would also say that every weapon has a weakness too. The Sage's DNA sword was said to be the strongest weapon but yet still it shattered. Ninjutsu did not work on Obito but Senjutsu worked.
Obito's shield turned everything into nothing and it was a defense that the Sage used.
I am pretty sure that Senjutsu would work against Yata.

I do believe the hype doesn't include Sage attacks as well, but it's another topic

I Agree. It's like suggesting that the Yata Mirror can negate a technique like Hiraishin working on Susano'o and its user, which is absurd.

Indeed it is, but yata wankers gonna wank. Let them wank Lol

 

[sasori345]

Kishimoto comfirmed it in databook since no defense is possible
Kamui >>> Yata

 

[hokutoshinken]

It's obvious kamui is by far stronger...

 

[OnPoint]

It's not. You know that this comparison itself was absurd.

Of course Kamui can be likened to Hiraishin. Jikūkan Ninjutsu in general simply moves the user/foe from A to B. Kamui isn't physical. It isn't anything really - nothing but a distortion of space. How can you honestly sit there and suggest that the Yata Mirror will prevent Itachi or his Susano'o from being moved to a different plane of reality? It doesn't even make sense man.

 

[Takos]

Why does it matter anyway?

I mean, it's not like Kakashi can't just kamui Itachi who's hiding BEHIND the Yata, leaving Yata itself intact.

 

[Mellanoma]

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This is how yata works. Except it does it to ALL

It's not a shield it is a mirror that uses the same properties of the attack against itself to cancel out/reflect it

Kamui cancels Kamui as seen in the manga and thus Yata reflecting kamui will cancel it
you can refute it as much as you want but Kamui "hype" has been disproven by it's own jutsu

 

[Strict]

The difference is the way these two techniques are used. Kamui needs to create a space barrier at a specific point where the user aims for, to drag the target in. Not so Hiraishin, which transmits an object to the respective seal without aiming at a spot. Kakashi's Kamui he aimed for the Mazou was already canceled by Obito, since both techniques have the same properties and can cancel each other. How did Obito stop Kamui from dragging in the Mazou by distorting the space? Because the techniques cancel each other. It's the same with Yata. While it is true that hype has to be taken with a grain of salt, other matter with abilities the Databook displays to complete information on respective techniques or powers.

It has the given ability to change its attributes in accordance with the attributes of the attack. Is that hype? Certainly not. At a point Kamui was canceled due to a technique with the same properties, it becomes relatively clear for me, that a supernatural item, which is said to have said ability, can cancel Kamui as well in the moment the space start to distort in the middle of Yata. Changing its properties, it would reflect this power as it already was reflected once.

It's not bullshit to assume this, but my opinion based on what I've seen in the Manga and read in the Databook.

 

[elsepa]

Itachi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kakashi
btw Yata solos

 

[OnPoint]

One sec making dinner real quick.

 

[Tendou00]

Yata isn't a space time jutsu.
Kamui > Yata

 

[OnPoint]

You're unable to appreciate the similarities between Kamui and Hiraishin, perhaps because you've been misled by how these things are seen by the foe. Kamui is distorting space; it's not bringing anything new which the Yata Mirror can repel. You argue that the Yata Mirror can negate or prevent Kakashi's technique based on how it was described although in actuality this isn't the case. Kamui isn't a Jutsu which can be repelled because it doesn't actually consist of physical or even astral material. It is only moving an object by distorting the space around a single point. The mirror can't possibly prevent itself from being 'moved' to a different plane of reality. Just as it couldn't possibly stop Minato from teleporting Susano'o back to Konoha. The two scenarios are strikingly similar.

It remains unclear how Obito saved the Mazou. He's been shown to eject weaponry and the like with his Kamui. So how do you know he didn't simply begin the process of warping the statue back out from his dimension? How can you even be sure that he used Kamui? Yes Kakashi's technique was stopped, but how? We didn't see Obito use his Mangekyou at all during that phase. And in any case, Kamui is kamui - it would only make sense that it could stop itself from working. Like if Minato decided to teleport to Konoha and another village at the same time. Would he actually move anywhere at all?

For me, it simply makes no sense to argue that the Mirror, spiritual or not, is going to prevent techniques or abilities which revolve around simple movement and bring no new material to the table.

 

[Bogard]

You're unable to appreciate the similarities between Kamui and Hiraishin, perhaps because you've been misled by how these things are seen by the foe. Kamui is distorting space; it's not bringing anything new which the Yata Mirror can repel. You argue that the Yata Mirror can negate or prevent Kakashi's technique based on how it was described although in actuality this isn't the case. Kamui isn't a Jutsu which can be repelled because it doesn't actually consist of physical or even astral material. It is only moving an object by distorting the space around a single point. The mirror can't possibly prevent itself from being 'moved' to a different plane of reality. Just as it couldn't possibly stop Minato from teleporting Susano'o back to Konoha. The two scenarios are strikingly similar.

It remains unclear how Obito saved the Mazou. He's been shown to eject weaponry and the like with his Kamui. So how do you know he didn't simply begin the process of warping the statue back out from his dimension? How can you even be sure that he used Kamui? Yes Kakashi's technique was stopped, but how? We didn't see Obito use his Mangekyou at all during that phase. And in any case, Kamui is kamui - it would only make sense that it could stop itself from working. Like if Minato decided to teleport to Konoha and another village at the same time. Would he actually move anywhere at all?

For me, it simply makes no sense to argue that the Mirror, spiritual or not, is going to prevent techniques or abilities which revolve around simple movement and bring no new material to the table.

Depending on where one Kamui user gas at, it creates a hole relating 2 dimensions(the real world and kamui dimension). The location and size of the hole is controlled at will. I think it's safe to say that another Kamui user would simply recover the hole created by the first one at a particular location by continuously decreasing the size of the hole into complete nullification. Kakashi and Obito have the same eyes after all

 

[Strict]

But is that point dragging in objects actually nothing? How is that space barrier created? Probably by focusing Chakra into this point, forcing the space to distort at exactly this point. Distortion of space can't happen out of nothing. You need a force to move something from A to B. Even if it's Chakra in this case, which is focused at the point Kakashi aims for, to let the space distort.

We can speculate what Obito exactly did, but in fact, he did cancel Kamui. Analyzing the situation concretely while keeping in mind how Obito's version of Kamui actually works, there is no need to jump at conclusions. We know from Obito's Kamui that it works on self range, absorbing himself and the objects he gets in touch with. Yet, The Kamui aimed at the Mazou's head was canceled. At this point, we didn't even see a reversing progress which let the Mazou's head dragging out of the dimension it was dragged in. The process of Kamui simply stopped, while Obito's physical body was present in their dimension (note, that Obito dodged Naruto's attack physically instead of letting it pass through him in exactly the time he canceled Kamui).

And that example can be projected at the Yata's abilities perfectly. You called Kamui "nothing", a simple distortion of space at a specific spot, moving an object to another location. Yet the effect itself was stopped. And here, the Yata's ability comes into play. It can change every of its properties to alter its attributes in accordance with the attributes of the attack. It adopts the power of the power which affects the shield in some way. If Kamui starts to distort the space at the mirror, the mirror on the other hand could adopt this force and force the space to distort in reverse. I recall what Obito did - exactly the same. He stopped the space from distorting at the point Kakashi was aiming for. That proves, that even this technique is based on a force which forces the space to distort from begin with.

Our beliefs are based on how we both visualize these two powers to work when being confronted. Kamui can drag this shield to the other dimension. Yet, nothing proves my imagination wrong, whether it sounds absurd or not. If Yata was said to be a supernatural item that negates any attack no matter by what it is hit, I would agree that it has no mean to trust mere hype. But in this case, I have my reasons to trust the ability given to the shield, when at the same time, a way to cancel Kamui was indeed given. Its counterpart, the Totsuka blade, also proved the abilities which were displayed in the Databook. And if the Manga didn't show that even an immortal Uzumaki with Rinnegan loses his power immediately and is freed from the complete control of the Edo Tensei's caster the moment this weapon stabs him, starting to dissolve, no one would have believed in such a power, basing their opinions on Orochimaru, who could struggle and put out the Kusanagi blade while being stabbed by the Totsuka blade. I think you get my thoughts.

The case is, that both these weapons were portrayed as supernatural.

 

[Bogard]

There is only one jutsu that relate this world to the Kamui dimension and that's Kamui. The Black Hole itself relates this world to Kamui-land and like i've said above the user is the one who controls the size and location of the hole. Since Kakashi and Obito have the same eyes and power, both of them control that size and location of the hole.

So when Kakashi created a hole to send Gedo Mazo's head to the other dimension, Obito simply decreased said hole into complete nullification. So for the yata mirror to nullify Kamui's black hole it would have to decrease the black hole relating this world to the Kamui-land, but too bad, yata mirror isn't related to the Kamui-land simply because it exists in this world and it's stated space-time ninjutsus aren't related. Only Kakashi's and Obito's are because they use the same eyes and jutsu.

Infact if Obito didn't give his other eye to Kakashi, no one other than himself could have actually been related to said dimension

 

[Unorthodox]

okay we get it everyone shits on itach

 

[Strict]

As I said, Obito's Kamui works on self range only, absorbing his body and the objects he touches. Creating a larger sized hole on top of Kakashi's, would mean that Obito possesses long range Kamui as well, able to influence and distort the space at the spot he aims for. That isn't the case. Obito's ability is defined through going intangible and absorbing targets by touching them in an tangible form.

Anything else is assumption.

 

[OnPoint]

Yes, but this idea that the Yata Mirror can simply reverse or negate any technique, regardless of their physical/spiritual make up, is extremely flawed. You yourself would accept that the mirror could not prevent Minato from using Hiraishin to move it to a new location. You cannot simply distinguish between two Jikūkan Ninjutsu which share the same endpoint - movement from one area to another.

Standing by what you've said - would you, therefore, suggest that Obito couldn't simply phase through the mirror, irrespective of whether he wanted to harm Itachi or not? After all, he only possesses one Mangekyou Sharingan technique. Suggesting that the Mirror could somehow 'negate' Kamui implies that it would also stop Obito from being 'intangible' should he decide to pass through it. But how can that be so if Obito's body isn't even existing in the same realm as the shield? This is why you cannot brush aside this concept of Kamui being a 'nothing' technique. It's only distorting what already exists. Regardless of the force or power (Chakra) which drives it, the actual barrier space is nothing; in fact, less than nothing if you accept that not even space exists at this point.

Putting emphasis on the fact that Kamui was stopped doesn't change the fact that there must be something for that shield to actually repel. It is important how Kakashi's technique was stopped, particularly if it was done from the other dimension. In such a scenario, you imply that the Yata Mirror can defend against Jutsu or techniques which don't even 'hit' or come into contact with it. Further still, you open the door to it being able to negate Jutsu from other dimensions, which is even more baffling.

You make a case for the Mirror being able to reflect everything. What if I told you that 'nothingness' isn't apart of such a group?

 

[Bogard]

Obito did throw his fan for something and we've seen that Obito can transfer his kamui technique on everything he touches. So i think it's fair to say that when the fan connected to the space-time distortion created by Kakashi, he simply decreased the distortion in question. If not that, then it simply means that Obito indeed have long range Kamui, and although it would question his intelligence in battle, it is the only possible explanation on what happened at that moment since no matter how you look at it, Obito did nullify the Kamui in question from a distance. The "how" is what is questionable and can only be answered by what i stated

 

[Strict]

Kakashi's Kamui would force the space in front of the shield to distort, Obito, once he used his Kamui, stays intangible. His real body is already in the other dimension at the moment passing the shield. Kakashi would force the space to distort and drag the shield in.

And "nothingness", doesn't exist. Even Kakashi's Kamui is a force. Space can't start to distort from nothingness. Kakashi forces the space to distort with whatever you want, with the focus of Chakra or something else. And there is still no legit point on how Obito did stop the distortion of the space, you only assume it, based on abilities Obito never displayed - affecting the space at a spot he desires, in this case the spot Kakashi affected with the counterpart eye of Obito.

Minato's Hiraishin doesn't affect the shield in any way, it forces the whole object Susanoo to move to another location without affecting the shield in anyway. Kakashi's Kamui however needs to aim at a specific spot, forcefully dragging the object into the other dimension. The mirror doesn't negate Jutsu from other dimensions, but same time Kakashi's Jutsu isn't. It is a Jutsu that happens in this world, it creates a force, forcing the space around a specific location to distort. It is not "nothingness", or as you called it even less. :b

..damn, I spent to much nerves on this matter together with the other threads. It doesn't matter, I can live even with the fact you were right.