Kakuzu vs Jiraiya

[Kunihi]

Solid evidence. Much facts.

SM only enhances jutsu you already have unless it's a sage specific tech, chou oodama rasengan isn't a sage mode specific tech, all jiraiya is doing is enhancing one of his base techniques with SM.

 

[Curse Mark]

SM only enhances jutsu you already have unless it's a sage specific tech, chou oodama rasengan isn't a sage mode specific tech, all jiraiya is doing is enhancing one of his base techniques with SM.

Okay so according to you base jiraiya's rasengan+ SM= chou oodama rasengan


Jiraiya's rasengan - SM = rasengan

 

[Kunihi]

Okay so according to you base jiraiya's rasengan+ SM= chou oodama rasengan


Jiraiya's rasengan - SM = rasengan

er no. According to me, jiraiya's chou oodama rasengan + SM = jiraiya's SM enhanced chou oodama rasengan, just like naruto's chou oodama rasengan + SM = NAruto's SM enhanced chou oodama rasengan.

 

[Curse Mark]

er no. According to me, jiraiya's chou oodama rasengan + SM = jiraiya's SM enhanced chou oodama rasengan, just like naruto's chou oodama rasengan + SM = NAruto's SM enhanced chou oodama rasengan.

Okay I misunderstood what you were saying sorry. Im not sure though- he's never shown it in base but I would say it's probably still possible. It's not like he doesn't know how to do it I guess the question is more like if he can still use that same amount of chakra- and because he's a sannin i think it would be okay to assume he could.

 

[Lariatoo]

Playing his cards right Kakuzu can win. But Jiraiya still wins the majority.

 

[Curse Mark]

Lol if only zexion were here

 

[Nakamura Nagata]

jiraiya will win for sure no doubts about this.

 

[Icelerate]

If i remember well Kakuzu's hearts can travel underground (i'll post scan later, Kakuzu used this ability to nullify Shikamaru's shadow posession). While underground the mask is safe from fire, and by simple distance calculation it's pretty easy to determinate when the mask is already out of the jutsu's range. So if Kakuzu uses domu with his main body, the raiton mask can be safe and use gian to make Jiraiya stop spittig fire. Or even better, if Jiraiya doesn't react in time, he can kill him

No only Kakuzu's threads traveled underground. His entire mask isn't going to fit in the gap created by his threads. The raiton mask will use gian after Jiraiya's katon runs out which means Jiraiya will be able to see and react just fine.

Fair point. But there's the fact that Jiraiya needs hand seals for that jutsu. If he is already restrained then i don't see how he could use that jutsu to cut the threads.

He only needs to

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. Kakuzu can't restrain him faster than Jiraiya claps his hands and manipulates his hair.

On the hypothetical case that Kakuzu restrains Jiraiya with a fast thread attack then Jiraiya is finished unless he gets saved by one of his summons (which is the factor why i give Jiraiya the victory)

Spoiler

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Ignoring the fact that Jiraiya will fight Kakuzu at long range.

About those scans, it's always implied that Kakashi was exhausted. But, being exhausted doesn't decrease his 3 tomoe reflexes, and, after that he was still able to use raikiri to save naruto and another one to kill Kakuzu, plus another sunshin that same time when he saved Naruto, so he had definitely enough staima to get away at full speed, meaning that thread attack was very fast.

EDIT: Let's not forget that Kakashi implied he'd have used Kamui to save himself from Kakuzu0s attack. And probably save choji and Ino. That's a pretty big Kamui. So he could've definitely sunshin'd away, if he could. The attack was "too fast"

Kakashi was injured and could barely get up (

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[EZQ]

No only Kakuzu's threads traveled underground. His entire mask isn't going to fit in the gap created by his threads. The raiton mask will use gian after Jiraiya's katon runs out which means Jiraiya will be able to see and react just fine.


He only needs to

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. Kakuzu can't restrain him faster than Jiraiya claps his hands and manipulates his hair.

Ignoring the fact that Jiraiya will fight Kakuzu at long range.

Kakashi was injured and could barely get up (

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I'm low on battery, i'll reply it in a while

 

[EZQ]

No only Kakuzu's threads traveled underground. His entire mask isn't going to fit in the gap created by his threads. The raiton mask will use gian after Jiraiya's katon runs out which means Jiraiya will be able to see and react just fine.

No, the whole heart was that travelled underground (it doesn't matter which one). So it could easely be the lightining heart, that travels underground and uses Gian before the fire ends.

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Kishi clearly drew the heart beats. On the anime is even more clear.

He only needs to

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. Kakuzu can't restrain him faster than Jiraiya claps his hands and manipulates his hair.

If he doesn't see the threads coming, and his arms get restrained, he can't clap his hands. Kakasi had his arms restrained. And the bold depends on how much time Jiraiya has to react. From a short range (and if Kakuzu is transformed) jiraiya wont react if he's in base, since he's slower than Kakashi and had less reflexes

Ignoring the fact that Jiraiya will fight Kakuzu at long range.

Ignoring the fact that Jiraiya can't just kill kakuzu by just long range since he can use fire+wind to slow down the pace of Jiraiya's fire + water to the rest of fire that comes through + domu to tank the rest. And i clearly said, in the hypotetical case he grabs him. I'm not saying this would be a cqc battle.

Kakashi was injured and could barely get up (

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1- Kakashi had enough chakra to use Kamui after that, and the relation between stamina and chakra has already been explained
2- Being injured in the chest doesn't equate to less reflexes. Kakashi clearly didn't move a finger when Kakuzu attacked him form close range
3- He even sunshin'd to Naruto after that fast enough to prevent Kakuzu to move an inch to Naruto

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[Icelerate]

No, the whole heart was that travelled underground (it doesn't matter which one). So it could easely be the lightining heart, that travels underground and uses Gian before the fire ends.

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Kishi clearly drew the heart beats. On the anime is even more clear.

Okay I agree that it can go underground but it's not using gian as Kakuzu is the one to cast gian but he can't because he's using domu when the fire is being used. Jiraiya could easily use Yomi Numa sinking that mask.

If he doesn't see the threads coming, and his arms get restrained, he can't clap his hands. Kakasi had his arms restrained. And the bold depends on how much time Jiraiya has to react. From a short range (and if Kakuzu is transformed) jiraiya wont react if he's in base, since he's slower than Kakashi and had less reflexes

But he will see the threads coming and clap his hands before the threads restrain him. No reason that Jiraiya will fight Kakuzu in CQC.

Ignoring the fact that Jiraiya can't just kill kakuzu by just long range since he can use fire+wind to slow down the pace of Jiraiya's fire + water to the rest of fire that comes through + domu to tank the rest. And i clearly said, in the hypotetical case he grabs him. I'm not saying this would be a cqc battle.

Yomi Numa is used right after to sink Kakuzu forcing Kakuzu to burn the swamp before he gets submerged but then Jiraiya will have the toad crash on him, forcing him to use domu. Then Jiraiya repeats Yomi Numa, sinking Kakuzu who is forced to maintain domu.

1- Kakashi had enough chakra to use Kamui after that, and the relation between stamina and chakra has already been explained
2- Being injured in the chest doesn't equate to less reflexes. Kakashi clearly didn't move a finger when Kakuzu attacked him form close range
3- He even sunshin'd to Naruto after that fast enough to prevent Kakuzu to move an inch to Naruto

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1. Never said anything about chakra in my post so irrelevant point.
2. Injured people have a harder time moving thus dodging attacks is much harder. How can you say he didn't move a finger?
3. That was afterwards. At the moment Kakuzu grabbed him, Kakashi couldn't even stand up properly or finish off Kakuzu's other masks hence why Chouji took the initiative while Kakashi stood there doing nothing (

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[NarutoX28]

Ino even offered to heal Kakashi because she knew that he was injured.

 

[EZQ]

Okay I agree that it can go underground but it's not using gian as Kakuzu is the one to cast gian but he can't because he's using domu when the fire is being used. Jiraiya could easily use Yomi Numa sinking that mask.

What do you mean with this? It's pretty clear that the mask are independant and can do those things by themselves

But he will see the threads coming and clap his hands before the threads restrain him. No reason that Jiraiya will fight Kakuzu in CQC.

If Kakuzu does it from the same range he did it to Kakashi, then Jiraiya can't react fast enough. Getting that close to Jiraiya is the hard thing for Kakuzu with boss summons here. That's why i said that Jiraiya wins anyways

Yomi Numa is used right after to sink Kakuzu forcing Kakuzu to burn the swamp before he gets submerged but then Jiraiya will have the toad crash on him, forcing him to use domu. Then Jiraiya repeats Yomi Numa, sinking Kakuzu who is forced to maintain domu.

1. Never said anything about chakra in my post so irrelevant point.
2. Injured people have a harder time moving thus dodging attacks is much harder. How can you say he didn't move a finger?
3. That was afterwards. At the moment Kakuzu grabbed him, Kakashi couldn't even stand up properly or finish off Kakuzu's other masks hence why Chouji took the initiative while Kakashi stood there doing nothing (

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Yet we see Kakashi moving pretty fast besides being injured. And nothing special happened between not being able to stand properly and his sunshin

EDIT: I agree at Yomi Numa thing. I was arguing how Kakuzu survives the fire attack and can use it to win with a gian ambush

 

[~Ethereal~]

Maybe Jiraiya.

 

[Icelerate]

What do you mean with this? It's pretty clear that the mask are independant and can do those things by themselves

No Kakuzu preps the jutsu with hand seals (

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), while his hearts fire them out. He can't do that while maintaining domu.

If Kakuzu does it from the same range he did it to Kakashi, then Jiraiya can't react fast enough. Getting that close to Jiraiya is the hard thing for Kakuzu with boss summons here. That's why i said that Jiraiya wins anyways

Why can't Jiraiya clap his hands? Are you saying Kakashi can't clap his hands in that scenario either?

Yet we see Kakashi moving pretty fast besides being injured. And nothing special happened between not being able to stand properly and his sunshin

Irrelevant what he did afterwards.

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yet she managed to react to Kaguya's chakra arms afterwards.

EDIT: I agree at Yomi Numa thing. I was arguing how Kakuzu survives the fire attack and can use it to win with a gian ambush

Okay.