[VS] Kakuzu vs 3rd Hokage (Prime, non-edo)

[EliteKakashi]

False. Hiruzens jutsu has no specific qualities. For instance if Hiruzen used his own Katon to try and counter Kakuzu's, Kakuzu's would avoid Hiruzens by traveling under it as it rides the ground before it explodes meanwhile Kakuzu can tank the geezer's Katon with Domu.

Or Hiruzen could just use Suijinheki in a similar fashion as to what Tobirama used:

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Which blocked Hiruzen's Karyu Endan.

Also, Hiruzen's Karyu Endan also eliminates your point of "specific qualities". Per the databook, Hiruzen can control the flames.

Since the art of having the flames obey the caster's will is outrageously difficult, its mastery is restricted to a limited number of skillful shinobi!

Also, there would be no "going under" karyu endan or something like Gokakyu, as it touches the ground as it travels. But again, Hiruzen wouldn't need to rely on katon to block it as suijinheki or whatever he used vs buddha:

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Would take care of it.

Plus Kakuzu has the CQC advantage threads could remove enma from his grasp and if he tried to go back into monkey mode he would already be restrained. Only thing truly deadly here is Hiruzen's raiton... however Gian was stated to be Raikiri level so I feel like it may just rip right through Hiruzen's as when it comes to Raiton size doesn't matter.

Enma can create upwards of at least 20 clones himself(as noted when he created the cage), and Hiruzen with "prime" chakra levels was noted to be a highly skilled bunshin user as well, so the threads can be dealt with.

He doesn't have to go in to monkey form to fight against the threads, as he can use his limbs while still in adamantine mode, or one of his or Hiruzen's clones can help out, as Hiruzen could cut through the threads with a raiton or futon attack, much like Kakashi cut through with raikiri.

Hiruzen's raiton he used vs the buddha looks exactly like gian:

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So I'm not sure on your comment about it cutting through it. Even if it could, Hiruzen is given the ability to use raikiri, given his knowledge and ability to use all konoha techniques. While he can't use it like KAkashi due to the lack of sharingan, if he had to use it in defense, he could.

But again, that's assuming Hiruzen is simply going to fight "fire with fire" or "lightning with lightning", when he has the ability to use futon to defeat the technique.

I don't know why he didn't counter each technique the buddha used with the proper element(probably Kishi just being a retard again), but he has the ability to do so.

 

[Zexion~]

Wait what? I was going on the fact that this was just Edo-Hiruzen feats no hype involved. So i'll counter the points that still matter.

lso, there would be no "going under" karyu endan as it touches the ground as it travels. But again, Hiruzen wouldn't need to rely on katon to block it as suijinheki or whatever he used vs buddha:

Kakuzu's is much more massive though

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it would engulf the dragon flame bullet... hence why I was assuming Hiruzens larger katon variant would be used. Well my strategy for the Katon would only be used after Hiruzen himself is already using a jutsu not suiton or doton. Thus allowing it to travel under and blindside Hiruzen.

Enma can create upwards of at least 20 clones himself(as noted when he created the cage), and Hiruzen with "prime" chakra levels was noted to be a highly skilled bunshin user as well, so the threads can be dealt with.

No hype my man no hype, and pretty sure that could be specific for the jutsu itself, but no matter 20 of him are still useless. Kakuzu's fuuton can take them out all at once and if Kakuzu is already restraining Hiruzen he can't use his Katon to counteract it.

He doesn't have to go in to monkey form to fight against the threads, as he can use his limbs while still in adamantine mode, or one of his or Hiruzen's clones can help out, as Hiruzen could cut through the threads with a raiton or futon attack, much like Kakashi cut through with raikiri.

How would using his limbs help in this situation? He'd already have been whipped across the battlefield with threads, whether the threads are latched onto the limbs or the pole itself when thrown makes no difference. With the feats he's shown he has nothing to cut through the threads my man.

Hiruzen's raiton he used vs the buddha looks exactly like gian

That is true but don't forget Kakuzu can fire off at least two bolts so he has the advantage in the Raiton category. Plus just a note Hiruzen has no idea what Kakuzu's masks are going to do so saying he's going to start off with 5 shadow clones using all elemental jutsu is a little bit of a stretch. If Kakuzu can start with gian which Hiruzen counters with fuuton and then Kakuzu uses Katon... Hiruzens defenses are limited.

But again, that's assuming Hiruzen is simply going to fight "fire with fire" or "lightning with lightning", when he has the ability to use futon to defeat the technique.

Fuuton could defeat it but not if he's busy with other elements.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Wait what? I was going on the fact that this was just Edo-Hiruzen feats no hype involved. So i'll counter the points that still matter.

I dunno why it wouldn't be counted. Hiruzen has shown the ability to use 5 elements, and it's been stated in each databook, including databook 4, that he can use every non-KKG technique in Konoha, including clan techniques like shadow bind, and Orochimaru stated it in the manga. The only bit of Hiruzen's hype that has been discredited is the fact that he's the strongest hokage, and even then that was coming from Iruka, and who gives a shit what Iruka has to say anyway.

Kakuzu's is much more massive though

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it would engulf the dragon flame bullet... hence why I was assuming Hiruzens larger katon variant would be used. Well my strategy for the Katon would only be used after Hiruzen himself is already using a jutsu not suiton or doton. Thus allowing it to travel under and blindside Hiruzen.

Even if it was Hiruzen's larger katon variety, he could just aim it downwards. He only shot high to intercept the buddha's attacks.

One of Hiruzen's clones could counter the katon, then.

No hype my man no hype, and pretty sure that could be specific for the jutsu itself, but no matter 20 of him are still useless. Kakuzu's fuuton can take them out all at once and if Kakuzu is already restraining Hiruzen he can't use his Katon to counteract it.

That's not even hype. He used 5 shadow clones using 5 different elements at once, even in old age(I know he was edo, but that doesn't increase his chakra amount, it just replenishes it once used, if my understanding of ET is correct). The reason I stated the part about Prime Hiruzen is because Old Hiruzen didn't use it due to chakra restrictions vs Orochimaru. That won't be an issue in this fight.

And when the cage dispersed, each individual clone of Enma dispersed:

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Thanks goes to Blaze on the image.

And again, Hiruzen's clones have shown incredible durability and incredible ninjutsu use of their own, so they're not something that's just going to get easily defeated by Kakuzu, and they can defend Hiruzen and Enma from any blasts or attacks if Kakuzu's masks try to blindside Hiruzen.

How would using his limbs help in this situation? He'd already have been whipped across the battlefield with threads, whether the threads are latched onto the limbs or the pole itself when thrown makes no difference. With the feats he's shown he has nothing to cut through the threads my man.

Using the limbs to extend and grab the threads before they grab his body and allow a clone to destroy them is how it could help.

What is throwing Enma supposed to accomplish, exactly? And again this is a situation where one of Hiruzen or Enma's clones can help out, by just jumping up and catching Enma after he's thrown, so it doesn't even become much of an inconvenience for Enma.

No reason to believe that raiton attack Hiruzen used couldn't cut through the threads.

That is true but don't forget Kakuzu can fire off at least two bolts so he has the advantage in the Raiton category. Plus just a note Hiruzen has no idea what Kakuzu's masks are going to do so saying he's going to start off with 5 shadow clones using all elemental jutsu is a little bit of a stretch. If Kakuzu can start with gian which Hiruzen counters with fuuton and then Kakuzu uses Katon... Hiruzens defenses are limited.

Hiruzen's fighting style was noted to be one that involved him fighting with clones to figure out the abilities and then going at it with his real body. And again, worth noting that Hiruzen's clones can take a hell of a beating, even in old age:

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Only Naruto has shown to have clones more durable than these, to my knowledge.

And yes, Kakuzu can use two. But so could Hiruzen with a shadow clone, again, under the weird idea that he uses raiton to fight raiton.

Fuuton could defeat it but not if he's busy with other elements.

Again, covered by clones.

 

[Zexion~]

I dunno why it wouldn't be counted. Hiruzen has shown the ability to use 5 elements, and it's been stated in each databook, including databook 4, that he can use every non-KKG technique in Konoha, including clan techniques like shadow bind, and Orochimaru stated it in the manga. The only bit of Hiruzen's hype that has been discredited is the fact that he's the strongest hokage, and even then that was coming from Iruka, and who gives a shit what Iruka has to say anyway.

Made me chuckle Lol but still its still nothing but hype. When did Oro state this though?

Even if it was Hiruzen's larger katon variety, he could just aim it downwards. He only shot high to intercept the buddha's attacks.

But he doesn't know that it's traveling on the ground my man as the explosion caused by the flame is still visible making it seem like a blast of flames ( I scanned it in my last post right?) So hungry atm I can barely think Lol

One of Hiruzen's clones could counter the katon, then.

How can he make a clone when already using fuuton? Plus this would be an enhanced Katon

That's not even hype. He used 5 shadow clones using 5 different elements at once, even in old age(I know he was edo, but that doesn't increase his chakra amount, it just replenishes it once used, if my understanding of ET is correct). The reason I stated the part about Prime Hiruzen is because Old Hiruzen didn't use it due to chakra restrictions vs Orochimaru. That won't be an issue in this fight.

Yes... It replenishes your chakra so that 50% that clones are supposed to drain from you immediately comes back giving you and your clones way more chakra than normal my man. I'm not saying he can't use the 5 clones but twenty is a little much without feats.

And when the cage dispersed, each individual clone of Enma dispersed:

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It was probably just similar to how he cloned his shurikan, except this time he cloned enma in his weapon form. Enma had nothing to do with it my man.

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as a cloned monkey form enma would have been great help when facing Oro in CQC.

And again, Hiruzen's clones have shown incredible durability and incredible ninjutsu use of their own, so they're not something that's just going to get easily defeated by Kakuzu, and they can defend Hiruzen and Enma from any blasts or attacks if Kakuzu's masks try to blindside Hiruzen.

The more clones you use the less strong they become my man, unless you're Naruto of course. They still get wrecked by masses of threads

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You're assuming that Hiruzen has great speed here which he really doesn't. Plus Kakuzu's fuuton is a near instant cast

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It immediatly turns into a giant semi-sphere of basically death for anything caught inside

Also backed up by the DB

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I struggle to see how Hiruzen counters that with a katon. So if used to take out a wide group of his clones it most likely is working.

Using the limbs to extend and grab the threads before they grab his body and allow a clone to destroy them is how it could help.

Not even Kakashi could react to his threads though, so I highly doubt something with a disadvantage as linear grabbing will be able to halt it

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If it grabs it then the pole is still pulled away from Hiruzen allowing for another launch of threads to take hold of Hiruzen himself.

What is throwing Enma supposed to accomplish, exactly? And again this is a situation where one of Hiruzen or Enma's clones can help out, by just jumping up and catching Enma after he's thrown, so it doesn't even become much of an inconvenience for Enma.

With him gone Kakuzu can attack Hiruzen directly. With threads or Domu enhanced body shots. Threads would be more deadly though as without enma he has no defense.

No reason to believe that raiton attack Hiruzen used couldn't cut through the threads.

Its a bolt of lightning? How does a bolt of lighting cut something.

Hiruzen's fighting style was noted to be one that involved him fighting with clones to figure out the abilities and then going at it with his real body. And again, worth noting that Hiruzen's clones can take a hell of a beating, even in old age:

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Only Naruto has shown to have clones more durable than these, to my knowledge.

It was a few wooden sticks :| Threads that completely rip through your insides would completely annihilate the clones or any of his jutsu. Plus he had just made a deal with the reaper doubt the clone would falter after that regardless.

And yes, Kakuzu can use two. But so could Hiruzen with a shadow clone, again, under the weird idea that he uses raiton to fight raiton.

Kakuzu only uses two to defend Hiruzens own raiton attack. Despite Kakashi's sharingan troll Kakuzu's raiton is faced so Hiruzen getting off a clone and a raiton in time is questionable.


Sorry this wasn't that good my man, my hunger is literally gnawing at my brain Lol

 

[EliteKakashi]

Made me chuckle Lol but still its still nothing but hype. When did Oro state this though?

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Here's the Viz translation as well to confirm, though the quality isn't the greatest:

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But he doesn't know that it's traveling on the ground my man as the explosion caused by the flame is still visible making it seem like a blast of flames ( I scanned it in my last post right?) So hungry atm I can barely think Lol

I saw the scan you provided, though I'm honestly not getting how it can't be seen. Team 10 and Kakashi all dodged it without issue. Which Hiruzen could do too, if he chose that method instead of fighting back against it, which he may choose seeing as he doesn't have to protect anyone here.

How can he make a clone when already using fuuton? Plus this would be an enhanced Katon

Bunshins can be made before hand/once he figures out Kakuzu's abilities from using bunshin feints at the start.

Yes... It replenishes your chakra so that 50% that clones are supposed to drain from you immediately comes back giving you and your clones way more chakra than normal my man. I'm not saying he can't use the 5 clones but twenty is a little much without feats.

Oh, I wasn't granting Hiruzen the ability to use 20 clones. I was saying Enma could.

It was probably just similar to how he cloned his shurikan, except this time he cloned enma in his weapon form. Enma had nothing to do with it my man.

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as a cloned monkey form enma would have been great help when facing Oro in CQC.

Databook states it was Enma's doing:

Paragraphs:
金剛如意に変化した猿魔が、さらに分身して数十本の如意棒に姿を変え、敵の四方八方を格子状に取り囲んで捕 縛する術。
After transforming himself into an adamantium staff, Enma clones himself in staff form then boxes the enemy into a lattice.

I dunno why Enma didn't use clones to help fight against Orochimaru. It's like Pakkun could smell enemies from a great distance away even without having their scent before hand, but even with that, Kakashi still resorted to allowing Zabuza to slash him to get his scent on Zabuza and then attack with the ninken, claiming he needed his scent on Zabuza for the ninken to track him down, despite Pakkun showing the ability to do so without somone's scent. It's like Kishi doesn't even think the shit through.

The more clones you use the less strong they become my man, unless you're Naruto of course. They still get wrecked by masses of threads

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You're assuming that Hiruzen has great speed here which he really doesn't. Plus Kakuzu's fuuton is a near instant cast

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It immediatly turns into a giant semi-sphere of basically death for anything caught inside

Hiruzen had the speed to keep up with Hashirama and Tobirama, getting to the war battlefield at the same exact time they did. Minato getting there slightly before they did. So his speed is on a pretty high level. And his speed in fighting in close quarters was fast enough that he placed explosive tags on Hashirama and Tobirama without them or even Orochimaru ever noticing until they went off.

Kakuzu's futon is deadly, but in order for it to get in close range like that to pull that attack off without giving the opponent time to react, Kakuzu has to have assistance, such as from Hidan. Hidan distracted Kakashi and the futon mask took advantage of that. And again, the masks all have to worry about being attacked by clones of Hiruzen or Enma as well, mostly Hiruzen's elemental abilities.

Also backed up by the DB

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I struggle to see how Hiruzen counters that with a katon. So if used to take out a wide group of his clones it most likely is working.

In terms of strength of clones, I'm honestly not sure. Hiruzen was already out of breath/exhausted and those two clones he made survived everything thrown at them, including the death god sticking his soul sucking hand through them, which is something shown to cause a great amount of pain, such as when Minato used it as well.

Not even Kakashi could react to his threads though, so I highly doubt something with a disadvantage as linear grabbing will be able to halt it

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If it grabs it then the pole is still pulled away from Hiruzen allowing for another launch of threads to take hold of Hiruzen himself.

To be fair, we aren't even shown what results in them getting grabbed. The scene we're shown before they've been captured is Kakuzu "transforming", then a few pages of Hidan/Shikamaru, then they're caught. Kakashi notes it was too fast for him to react to, which is fair, but he was also exhausted at that point having used 4 or 5(I forget which) raikiri, fighting in CQC, using the sharingan, and using suijinheki in that fight already.

Can Kakuzu use that many threads without having the hearts in his body? I know he can use some, not aware of how much or if it's restricted at all with the hearts outside of him. Cause again, this potentially leaves him open for clones to attack.

With him gone Kakuzu can attack Hiruzen directly. With threads or Domu enhanced body shots. Threads would be more deadly though as without enma he has no defense.

Again, there is still the cutting through them with elemental jutsu. Raiton or even futon should be able to cut them. Or even using a mud wall to temporarily block them, retreat, and regroup with Enma if need be.

Its a bolt of lightning? How does a bolt of lighting cut something.

You know you noted above that Kakuzu's gian would potentially cut through Hiruzen's raiton, right? lol. Looking at Hiruzen's raiton blast, it looks as if it's concentrated lightning, shaped in a manner that could cut or pierce through things.

There's also the option of enhancing kunai with raiton or futon to cut the threads.. unless you're unwilling to grant him that as well. And there's Suidinha(the technique Tobirama used to cut through the god tree branches), but again, that's relying on you giving him all of the Konoha techniques.

It was a few wooden sticks :| Threads that completely rip through your insides would completely annihilate the clones or any of his jutsu. Plus he had just made a deal with the reaper doubt the clone would falter after that regardless.

I don't mean that it's going to tank a full on elemental blast. I'm only saying that it could take a punch from Kakuzu or getting cut by the threads, etc. Not sure there's any basis for "making a deal with the reaper" making your clone any stronger.

Kakuzu only uses two to defend Hiruzens own raiton attack. Despite Kakashi's sharingan troll Kakuzu's raiton is faced so Hiruzen getting off a clone and a raiton in time is questionable.

Nothing to really argue, but should be able to pull off futon just fine.

Sorry this wasn't that good my man, my hunger is literally gnawing at my brain Lol

It's not biggie. It's not really any fun arguing for Hiruzen to be honest. Especially since I'm sitting here having to wonder how many clones could he realistically pull off in this "prime" form of his, cause the only thing we have to go off of is that he did use them in his prime, but not how many, and that he could create 5 as an edo.

Also I want to note I'm not even arguing Hiruzen wins, I'm just arguing he has counters for Kakuzu. I can't argue if he wins or not because I can't even begin to speculate on his chakra levels in his so called prime.

 

[Zexion~]

When I said cutting through the raiton I meant ripping through it...as they both one thing only whereas the threads are multiple of something so a bolt cutting them is not really possible.

Anyways I'll try and continue tomorrow then you have a few false points but I see I did now as well but i'm a bit too dead to type all that out.

The common notion is that Hiruzen is a "Advanced" version of Kakuzu when they are really just two different shinobi who happen to use the elements Lol

 

[Scryed]

I'll go with Hiruzen.

 

[TRE MERCER]

3rd Raikage low med difficulty.

He tanks all of Kakuzu's attacks and then proceed to run Nukite right through his face.​

 

[Scryed]

3rd Raikage low med difficulty.

He tanks all of Kakuzu's attacks and then proceed to run Nukite right through his face.​

Wrong Kage...

 

[New Dawn]

3rd Raikage low med difficulty.

He tanks all of Kakuzu's attacks and then proceed to run Nukite right through his face.​

please learn to read.

 

[super yang]

please learn to read.

Really?

 

[MickNerks]

Hiruzen wins.

In terms of Jutsu they are equal, except in terms of cloning (Himself and Weapons) and Summoning boss summons which give him a edge over kakuzu.. And Hiruzen $hits on kakazu in terms on CqC.

 

[New Dawn]

Hiruzen wins.

In terms of Jutsu they are equal, except in terms of cloning (Himself and Weapons) and Summoning boss summons which give him a edge over kakuzu.. And Hiruzen $hits on kakazu in terms on CqC.

Hiruzen has boss summons + shadow clone + weapon clone

Kakuzu has immortality + intangibility due to thread bodies + Domu skin + strength + threads

Hiruzen shits on Kakuzu CQC? LMFAO!

Kakuzu vs Hiruzen CQC is like a

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vs

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Kakuzu overpowers the poor little man.