Kakashi's strength compared to top tiers.

TheEvilOne

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I honestly believe he wouldn't get past Gaara or Tsunade.

We dont even know the extent of 8 Gates, I genuinely believe all 8 gates would temporarily put Guy on Madara/Hashirama level. Kakashi gets to the third stage and that's it.
I don't see Tsunade beating him. Restrict the Kamui and Kakashi loses, but with it its almost an unholy stomp in his favor.
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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I don't see Tsunade beating him. Restrict the Kamui and Kakashi loses, but with it its almost an unholy stomp in his favor.
I'm not one to argue points in debates like this but Tsunade's speed and reaction time are ridiculously good. Without that she's open to it. Kamui can't just magic away a fight no matter what the situation. Kakashi gets tired and restless, tank Tsunade can route a way to victory. We already know Tsunade is good at surviving ninja with alternative tactics. She survived Hanzo's poison and that's much harder to avoid than one or two articulated Kamui. Tsunade is too intense and will be on Kakashi in seconds, he can fend her off fine with his jutsu but Katsuyu and the Yin seal ends this in my opinion.
 

Takos

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S we all know how skilled Kakashi is but I want to let him take a gauntlet and see how far he comes.

1. Darui
2. Mei
3. Gai
4. Tsunade
5. Gaara
6. Jiraya
7. Orochimaru (without Edo's)
8. Tobirama
9. Sasuke
10. Naruto

My guess is that he will beat gaara just by a little margin and that he will lose to Jiraya.
No restrictions?
Then Kakashi can take out any of them, possibly (but not for sure) losing to Naruto due to his speed, but that's not confirmed.

With Kamui restricted? He loses at Orochimaru, I think, but I'm not sure.


Come on, we're talking about Kakashi here - everyone seems to underestimate his skills, but the truth remains - he is capable of fighting on even grounds against
four
immortal
V2 jins
with Sharingan
and Rinnegan.
And that's while being tired from fighting for a whole day straight and without resorting to Kamui.

Compare it to (albeit weakened) Orochimaru's struggle to defeat one normal V2 jin.
Or to Jirayia's "close-death situation" when Naruto accidentally turned into V2.

Kakashi's skills are tremendous, even without Kamui.
His speed is equal to 6-th gated Guy's speed.
His genjutsu is equal to genjutsu of one of the most powerful genjutsu users in the manga.
His analytical skills are said to be unparalleled (manga hype).
His ninjutsu and bunshin feint mastery is capable of tricking virtually any opponent.
As for taijutsu, he easily defeated Obito with it, who was capable of holding his own for a short while against Guy (even without resorting to Kamui)

We dont even know the extent of 8 Gates, I genuinely believe all 8 gates would temporarily put Guy on Madara/Hashirama level. Kakashi gets to the third stage and that's it.
But:
1. We have no idea if that's the case.
2. It would still be a draw and not a win for Guy.

Besides, Kakashi could simply warp himself to the other dimension once Guy opens 8 gates and wait for him to die. :p
 
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Bad Touch Yakushi

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No restrictions?
Then Kakashi take take out any of them, possibly (but not for sure) losing to Naruto due to his speed, but that's not confirmed.

With Kamui restricted? He loses at Orochimaru, I think.
You think a Kakashi without Kamui can beat Tsunade Gaara and Jiraiya?! o_O

Kakashi without Kamui could barely get past Darui. In fact I think Darui is stronger than a Part 1 Kakashi for sure.
 

Takos

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You think a Kakashi without Kamui can beat Tsunade Gaara and Jiraiya?! o_O

Kakashi without Kamui could barely get past Darui. In fact I think Darui is stronger than a Part 1 Kakashi for sure.
You missed my explanation, didn't you?

Look at base Kakashi's feat:
-fighting evenly against 4 immortal V2 jins with Sharingan and Rinnegan (while being tired from previous fights)

Then look at Jirayia's feat: almost dying when he faced one mortal V2 jinchuuriki without Sharingan or Rinnegan.
Then look at Orochimaru's feat (though I'm aware Orochimaru was weakened back then): holding his own against one mortal V2 jinchuuriki without Sharingan or Rinnegan.

Kakashi without Kamui barely getting past Darui? Be serious, please.

Kakashi is a beast without Kamui as well - his hype proves it, his feats prove it.
I also wrote above how his individual skills are in general, so I won't repeat it now.
 
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Bad Touch Yakushi

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You missed my explanation, didn't you?

Look at base Kakashi's feat:
-fighting evenly against 4 immortal V2 jins with Sharingan and Rinnegan (while being tired from previous fights)

Then look at Jirayia's feat: almost dying when he faced one mortal V2 jinchuuriki without Sharingan or Rinnegan.
Then look at Orochimaru's feat (though I'm aware Orochimaru was weakened back then): holding his own against one mortal V2 jinchuuriki without Sharingan or Rinnegan.

Kakashi without Kamui barely getting past Darui? Be serious, please.
That's an entirely situational analysis. Kakashi has a vast amount of big jutsu and is actually quite well picked to do with giant beasts. All he was doing was holding mindless controlled beasts at bay anyway with his 8 Gates partner and that still got them face to face with Tailed Beast Bombs before Naruto saved them.

Jiraiya was fighting PAIN. And the entire purpose of the fight was to make Pain seem threatening as possible which is why they couldn't have Jiraiya defeat them all effortlessly, he put up a good fight and got outmatched by being stuck in small areas and teamed up on by corpses who were all OP in their own right. 1 V 1, with 2 more normal ninja against each other, Kakashi could not defeat Jiraiya, the Sannin are just on another level and Kakashi knows that.
 

Takos

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That's an entirely situational analysis. Kakashi has a vast amount of big jutsu and is actually quite well picked to do with giant beasts.
He's actually quite well picked to fight against almost anybody, really.

All he was doing was holding mindless controlled beasts at bay anyway with his 8 Gates partner
They left their backs to each other, but Kakashi didn't use Guy's help in holding at bay 4 edo V2 jin. Guy fought a bijuu alone and Kakashi fought 4 jins alone.

and that still got them face to face with Tailed Beast Bombs before Naruto saved them.
Well, that doesn't count as "V2 jins" anymore, does it? If Naruto turned from V2 into Kyuubi against Orochimaru or Jirayia, they would be pulverized as well. We're talking about V2 now.

Jiraiya was fighting PAIN. And the entire purpose of the fight was to make Pain seem threatening as possible which is why they couldn't have Jiraiya defeat them all effortlessly, he put up a good fight and got outmatched by being stuck in small areas and teamed up on by corpses who were all OP in their own right.
I'm not taking away Jirayia's feats. But then again, Jirayia didn't fight the most powerful of the paths, the one that was able to defeat 8-tailed Naruto alone. Well, technically, he DID face against Deva, but that wasn't a fight anymore, since the Paths stomped him at that point.
Kakashi, on the other hand, not only faced Deva, but Pain still felt he might not be enough and additionally sent Preta to fight him. After that Kakashi was about to kill Preta while facing Deva at the same time:
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The reason Preta was able to interfere later against Deva is most likely the fact that it was "defeated" by a simple punch instead of Raikiri.

1 V 1, with 2 more normal ninja against each other, Kakashi could not defeat Jiraiya, the Sannin are just on another level and Kakashi knows that.
The Sannin is just a title given to these three powerful ninja. It doesn't mean no one can compare to them.
To my mind current Kakashi would be able to defeat Jirayia, albeit with very hard difficulty, without resorting to Kamui.

And if we allow Kakashi to use Kamui, then Jirayia has no chances of winning.

As for Orochimaru, Kakashi could not defeat him without Kamui due to his regenerative abilities (he's almost immortal). But then again, immortality won't help him once he is trapped in the other dimension. So Kakashi with Kamui still takes it.
 
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Bad Touch Yakushi

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He's actually quite well picked to fight against almost anybody, really.



They left their backs to each other, but Kakashi didn't use Guy's help in holding at bay 4 edo V2 jin. Guy fought a bijuu alone and Kakashi fought 4 jins alone.



Well, that doesn't count as "V2 jins" anymore, does it? If Naruto turned from V2 into Kyuubi against Orochimaru or Jirayia, they would be pulverized as well. We're talking about V2 now.



I'm not taking away Jirayia's feats. But then again, Jirayia didn't fight the most powerful of the paths, the one that was able to defeat 8-tailed Naruto alone. Well, technically, he DID face against Deva, but that wasn't a fight anymore, since the Paths stomped him at that point.
Kakashi, on the other hand, not only faced Deva, but Pain still felt he might not be enough and additionally sent Preta to fight him. After that Kakashi was about to kill Preta while facing Deva at the same time:
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The reason Preta was able to interfere later against Deva is most likely the fact that it was "defeated" by a simple punch instead of Raikiri.



The Sannin is just a title given to these three powerful ninja. It doesn't mean no one can compare to them.
To my mind current Kakashi would be able to defeat Jirayia, albeit with very hard difficulty, without resorting to Kamui.

And if we allow Kakashi to use Kamui, then Jirayia has no chances of winning.

As for Orochimaru, Kakashi could not defeat him without Kamui due to his regenerative abilities (he's almost immortal). But then again, immortality won't help him once he is trapped in the other dimension. So Kakashi with Kamui still takes it.
You put up a good argument but I honestly just cannot agree with this. Kakashi's place in the story has been set in stone and characters are constantly ranked higher than him, I can understand if you include Kamui but kamui-less kakashi just can't defeat Jiraiya. He can't do it. Just because A < B and A < C doesn't mean that B < C.
 

Takos

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You put up a good argument but I honestly just cannot agree with this. Kakashi's place in the story has been set in stone and characters are constantly ranked higher than him, I can understand if you include Kamui but kamui-less kakashi just can't defeat Jiraiya. He can't do it. Just because A < B and A < C doesn't mean that B < C.
Indeed. I've presented my arguments and there's no point discussing it further if we can't convince each other. :bouncy:

I have just one more thing to add - I don't agree with the statement that Kakashi's role has been set in stone. Kakashi had both character and power development throughout the series. If anything, manga hype puts him among the strongest characters of the series.
 
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