KidGamer65
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^ Lol get that nonsense out of here. Kakashi turning around by chance isn't him reacting to an attack that he wasnt even aware of.
Kakashi vs Minato
- Thread starter Lariatoo
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Eng nawashi
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Whatever .
But you said minato reacted physically and kakashi couldn't though both of them couldn't evade ,minato was showed to be able to move his arm while kakashi wasn't ,wasn't shown=/= Can't if kakashi other feats imply that he could .
Lo,kakashi reaction was never shown to be less than minato ,it is just your assumption that kakashi couldn't move his arm though there was no reason for kakashi to do so ,kakashi reacted and moved his arm as fast as KCM Minato who was most likely doing his best considering he failed .I got feats ,you only got an assumption that kakashi couldn't move his arm
No proof he can !!? You must be kidding ,if kakashi could react and move his arm as fast as KCM Minato ,then he can definitely replicate a feat of base minato
Kakashi was also able to react by turning his head to jin madaras's flight speed from blindside despite being exhauste
Eng nawashi
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You are the one who need to get the nonsense of here,KGLol,kakashi turned his head by chance !!!?,what a great chance lol, He was suddenly inspired to turn his head !!!?don't you see the surprise and the shock mark above kakashi's head!!? Don't make me laugh, all you are gonna do is getting rid of all kakashi feats
Kakashi not being aware of madara before going for him is a point for kakashi not against him ,yet he still felt madara and reacted mentally and physically .
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KidGamer65
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pateuvasiliu
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What is he supposed to do? He can see the arrow, his body is just too slow to move away.
This isn't a matter of reflexes, it's a matter of speed as Lee said in part 1. You can see the move coming and you can have a reflex to avoid it but that's pointless if your body isn't fast enough to do it.
Ay and Minato can avoid arrows because of their jutsus, not because of their base speed.
Minato is fast, sure, but I doubt he's fast enough that without FTG he'll be able to beat Kakashi in Taijutsu. After all a 3T Sasuke could face 3 tailed Naruto and Sasuke was nowhere near as used to Sharingan as Kakashi is, nor was he as fast as strong as Naruto in that form.
You can use the argument that Naruto moved in linear patterns but Kakashi is a ninja and should know by now how Minato fights. Minato's fighting style didn't change much between him teaching Kakashi and him dying, whereas Kakashi had 20 years to change his fighting style ( which he did, because Sharingan ).
There's the argument that Minato blitzed Obito when he tried to kill Naruto with a kunai but the manga's proven time and again that as far as ninja skills go Kakashi stomps Obito.
I simply don't see the speed difference between Minato and Kakashi as being so high that it gives Minato an edge, when Kakashi has the Sharingan and has been using it for 20 years. Kakashi can also open at least one of the Eight Gates and has been Guy's rival forever. Taijutsu shouldn't be an issue.
I personally ( as a Minato fanboy that is ) think Kakashi takes scenario 1 due to having full intel on Minato while Minato only knows about Chidori ( he never saw Raikiri, did he? ). In Taijutsu and Intelligence they're more or less equal so I think it's fair to say Kakashi wins...
Let's say 7/10.
As for Scenario 2, Minato wins due to Sage Mode.
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What Lee said is that even if the eyes can see something coming, your body needs to be fast enough to react and avoid. If your body can't evade it also means your reflexes aren't fast enough since a reflex is defined as "An action or movement of the body that happens automatically as a reaction to something"
I want you to go into detail on exactly what you meant here because I have few ways to tackle it but want to choose the best one.
His hand speed is superior to that of Kakashi. His reactions are better than Kakashis. His bodily movements are better than Kakashis. Thats all it takes in a taijutsu fight to come out superior.
If you do what I asked and post exactly what you meant a few quotes above I can give a correct response to this.
I cut out the stuff that didn't need to be addressedso you might see some things gone.
pateuvasiliu
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No, not really.
Minato can only avoid a Susanoo arrow due to FTG. His body isn't fast enough to avoid the arrow, but the jutsu teleports him away.
Kakashi had the reflex to use Kamui on the arrow, but he isn't fast enough to dodge it.
Ay and Minato's arrow-dodging speed comes from Raiton Armor and FTG. It isn't their body's physical prowess, it's the jutsus they use. They are fast on their own, but without their jutsus they can't dodge the arrows.
Think of RA and FTG as ninjutsu. It's not physical speed. Whereas Guy and Lee's speed in the Gates mode is pure, 100% physical prowess.
Bold, debatable.
Yeah, Minato made a barrier faster than Kurama's blow hit but Kakashi's hand speed was stated to be so fast Sakura and Naruto couldn't follow them. Only Itachi's been said to be so fast as far as I know.
And even if Minato makes signs faster what good does that do for him? Minato has no jutsus that require hand signs bar seals and summoning jutsu. Rasengan is hands free.
And sure, Minato is faster, but just because he's faster doesn't mean he can beat Kakashi. For instance Itachi is faster and has better reflexes than Kakashi, yes, but the difference between them isn't so massive to the point where Itachi would defeat Kakashi in a one on one. The Sharingan really adds a lot to someone's defense.
Furthermore Minato still has no intel on the techniques Kakashi has created in 20 years, whereas Kakashi has full intel and can plan accordingly. He'll fight Kakashi and at some point hit a Raiton Clone at which point Minato is toast.
KidGamer65
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True, but that isn't my point. Minato physically reacted to something faster than what Kakashi failed to physically react to. He tossed a Kunai above V2 Ay's head while they latter charged. Physical reaction.
We know this, but it doesn't change anything I said. Though I can definitely agree with the rest. Kakashi has the clear upper hand in Taijutsu. Not even seeing how one can give Minato the win in this area when he has no feats in it. As you said, being faster doesn't mean he'll win in Taijutsu.
The only way Minato can win really is if his Shunshin is fast enough to blitz Kakashi with no reaction, but that isn't happening from 35 meters away even if it is as fast as V2 Ay's as people have been led to believe by the databook.
1. FRS and Susanoo Arrow were shown to move at same speed.
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2. Third Raikage evaded FRS point blank range, no shunshin, no dashing, just evaded by turning his body.
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3. Third Raikage evaded again, point blank range. This time, he jumped slightly off the ground.
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4. Minato throws kunai above Ays head.
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Now to break down what all that means. Third Raikage in V1 has the body speed and reflexes to avoid FRS twice back to back at point blank range. Sasuke doesn't shoot Susanoo arrows point blank so isn't it safe to say Third Raikage would easily dodge arrows shot at lets say this distance?----->
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If he dodged FRS that casually twice, at that range, isn't it safe to say from the distance Sasuke shot Kakashi that dashing away, jumping, or shunshin to evade is feasible for him?We know V1 Ay is more or less equal to his father in speed when it was shown the Thirds speed reminded Naruto of when he clashed with V1 Ay.
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Isn't it safe to say V1 Ay can also dodge FRS/Arrows too that casually and if shot at the distance Sasuke did to Kakashi, he can also jump out the way, dash aside, or shunshin to evade?Minato managed to toss his kunai above Ays head before he teleported. The kunai was still in his hand when Ay was inches from his face so we know he tossed it at that point. If V1 Ay and V1 Third Raikage can casually dodge Arrows/FRS that means they can react and move faster than its traveling, correct? So isn't it safe to say that V2, not V1 Ay, is moving way faster than those Arrows/FRS since he was already much faster than them in V1 and upped his speed yet another tier?
Minato physically reacted to that (V2) speed at point blank range. He reacted to something at point blank range moving way faster than Arrow/FRS. Even if all he did was move his arm to toss the kunai his synapses were still fast enough to allow him to do that in front of V2 Ay so wouldn't it be correct to say he can duck, lean over like Third Raikage did, or side step away from something coming at 20+ meters out, but and here it goes....... much slower than the speed V2 Ay is moving at?
Kakashi can't do anything physically in front of an Arrow shot at 20+ meters out, let alone one shot at point blank range, and its much slower than V2 speed, which is what Minato physically reacted to..... at point blank range. I think anyone who reads this will concur that Minatos reflexes and speeds are much superior to Kakashis and if this doesn't change your opinion, nothing will.
When I say hand speed, I don't mean just how fast they can weave seals. Hand speed will be a huge factor in CQC. Why do you think Itachi was able to stomp Sasuke in CQC? His hand speed and reflexes were much better. Minatos hand/arm speed lets him toss a kunai over V2 Ays head, point blank, and while hes moving at max speed. Poops on any similar hand speed feat you can dig up for Kakashi.
But in this case, the difference between them is massive, as feats show.
Irrelevant since nothing in Kakashis arsenal matters except his clones and Raikiri and I'll re post my argument I put up against someone who used the Raiton Clone point below now:
The only thing Kakashi has going for him (and literally your only argument) is Minato being shocked with a Raiton Bunshin and Kakashi swoops in for the kill. Thats not happening, the Raiton Clone starts to unravel when hit before it shocks anything and with that time Minato can easily react and jump away since he has reacted to things way faster than a Raiton Bunshin unraveling.
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Minato will then make clones of his own and Raiton Bunshins will be ineffective from there on because he'll never catch the real Minato or his clones.Edit~
@ Bold Minato isn't just faster moving from point A to point B. His hand speeds and reflexes are better. Tobirama and Hashirama have no feats in the taijutsu area but you wouldn't dare say Kakashi beats the two of them in it because if you did, you'd be saying Kakashi also beats Madara in taijutsu since you think (you've made the argument several times) Hashirama and Madara are equals in the CQC/Taijutsu area.
Minatos speed is not on V2 Ays level. People who believe that are dumb. In my opinion it goes:
V2 Ay > Minato > V1 Ay
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Gold Lightning
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Minato still schools him,
much faster speed, and much faster reactions, added with clones to aid him and slam a rasengan to on kakashi to finish him off,
kakashi can forget about things like raikiri or any of his jutsus coming into play whenn minatos sheer speed is enough to evade them,
he doesnt stand much of a chance in CQC either, not when we (again) consider how hes much slower than minato, meaning that again he gets a rasengan slammed on him
with summons, all minato needs is FCD and kakaashis bones get crushed,
much faster speed, and much faster reactions, added with clones to aid him and slam a rasengan to on kakashi to finish him off,
kakashi can forget about things like raikiri or any of his jutsus coming into play whenn minatos sheer speed is enough to evade them,
he doesnt stand much of a chance in CQC either, not when we (again) consider how hes much slower than minato, meaning that again he gets a rasengan slammed on him
with summons, all minato needs is FCD and kakaashis bones get crushed,
pateuvasiliu
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And let's not forget that even if he does blitz Kakashi with no intel from Minato it could well be a Raiton Clone which ends it.
Okay, let's admit that he is fast enough for that. I see your point. But Kakashi isn't going to throw jutsus at him with no reason. He knows everything about Minato. Minato knows that Kakashi has Chidori and that he's very talented. That's about it.
I am fairly sure that was only done for artistic purposes, for us to see what happens.
A raiton clone is made of lightning and electricity moves at godknowswhatspeed throughout your body. As fast as Minato's shunshin is he isn't faster than the speed at which electricity travels.
Think about it, sticking your kunai in a raiton clone is like sticking your wet hand in a puddle of water in which an electric cable sits. You'll die before you know it.
I mean, if kunais and speed is the only thing Minato's got going for him ( because Raikiri > his Rasengan and at long range Kakashi dumps him ) then I hope you can see that he's at the clear disadvantage.
War Arc Kakashi has fought plenty V2 Jins and I doubt Minato's stronger in CQC than those, excluding Rasengan which Kakashi can beat with Raikiri.
Eng nawashi
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Ofc you aren't gonna reply ,because your argument is so weak ,it is based only on ignoring most of kakashi's reaction feats claiming that it was by chance or it is irrelevant
Eng nawashi
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Minato takes both scenarios...!
Minato stunned sasuke and naruto with his shunshin stopping kakashi from killing obito...! (just a feat)
but despite minato's feats overwhelming kakashi, i don't believe minato will outright blitz kakashi..! i think fight will turn out the same way as kid kakashi vs minato did except this time kakashi scratches minato instead ov bells...!
Minato stunned sasuke and naruto with his shunshin stopping kakashi from killing obito...! (just a feat)
but despite minato's feats overwhelming kakashi, i don't believe minato will outright blitz kakashi..! i think fight will turn out the same way as kid kakashi vs minato did except this time kakashi scratches minato instead ov bells...!
KidGamer65
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Exactly. There's no way Kakashi won't react from this distance in this area.
Well naturally. That's not how Kakashi fights. Way too smart for that.
Eng nawashi
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- Body reflexes =/= Shunshin speed =/= Arm movements speed ,I hope you realise that .
- The Third Ay case is body reflexes whereas minato's case is arm movements speed feats ,Dont ever compare the two cases ,tobirama was able to mark JJ obi to from point blank range ,does that mean he can evade him from further distances or evade even someone much slower as BSM Naruto without his FTG !!!? Ofc not
- what Minato got against Ay was Reactions and Arm movements speed feats ,war arc kakashi was proved to have arm movements and reactions equal to KCM Minato unless you are gonna ignore the war arc feats ,kakashi couldn't evade the arrow but no single evidence that he couldn't move his arm since there was no reason to do so ,so your whole proof is based on an assumption that kakashi other feats render it wrong.
- not to mention that minato had Intel on Ay speed while it was the first time for kakashi to see or know about the arrows attack .
- not to mention that kakashi was attacked by 2 susano arrows which increased the range making it even harder to evade using body reflexes.
- kakashi got better feats in the war arc ( reacting as fast as kcm minato and reacting mentally and physically to flying JJ madara from blind spot despite being exhausted ) ,you are stuck to the older feats ignoring the newer ones ,not that only but you also use assumptions to prove your point .
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KidGamer65
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I'm not going to take you seriously when you are dumb enough to believe Kakashi can react to JJ Madara despite BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke having trouble with Obito. Saying Kakashi can react as fast as KCM Minato based on them reaching for BZ at the same time is tantamount to the arguments that attempt to put Kakashi on 6G Gai's speed level. The Madara argument is just plain retarded.
So like I said. Not going to bother.
His hand speed being faster and him having faster reflexes doesn't automatically put him above Kakashi in overall CQC ability, including Taijutsu.
Hashirama having no feats is irrelevant, cause Madara has feats, and as you said, I put them as equals in that area. So I'm not seeing your point here. Minato has no such thing. Neither does Tobirama, nor have I ever, nor will I ever, claim that Tobirama>Kakashi in overall Taijutsu ability, cause nothing supports it.