Kakashi vs Itachi

[Lilt]

If speed depended on chakra, then Guy would be a slowbro.

Speed of clones depends on chakra percentage. That's an unequivocable truth. Not a theory.

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That's Wave Arc Sasuke (later raped by weighted Lee) raping ten 10% Zabuza clones, for instance.

Whereas one Zabuza clone held off Kakashi decently.

First, I believe there wasn't any mention of 50%.

You're right, I was thinking of an internet scanlation. In the offical viz translation, it reads:

Asuma: I can't believe he's this good...
Kakashi: No, actually, he's better. He hasn't even begun to show his true strength.

Still though. It's also clear that Kakashi wasn't factoring in the Mangekyō, because he didn't know about it:

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Second, Kakashi was right, since Itachi did not use MS, he WASN'T going all out.

As I pointed out above, when saying that, Kakashi didn't know about the MS. It wasn't a factor.

Itachi was holding back in speed and lethality. And from when? From when Kakashi knew him at age 13.

These are the subtleties in between the lines that hype Itachi that most people miss.

Which divides the perception of the character so drastically.

Besides, the fact that Itachi had to resort to MS to defeat Kakashi.

The exact opposite was stated, however.

Kakashi said, prior to the MS, that Itachi hadn't even begun to take them seriously.

Lol, of course he knew about MS. That's why he immediately recognized it when Itachi activated it and said "Can it be! You two, don't look into his eyes!"

A slight, but very important misquote. It's actually, "It can't be!?" He didn't know about it.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

its completely in character for kakashi to immediately blitz an opponent he knows is impossibly strong (his reaction to mazo coming out was "warp it". his reaction to juubi was "warp it".
so i think he would summon dogs and distract itachi, then hide underground. itachi may as wlel not even try genjutsu. so it becomes a physical fight. and kakashi has shown in the war arc he has enormous chakra reserves.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I don't think Kakashi surpasses Itachi in any real area of being a ninja. Itachi is better at taijutsu, genjutsu, and ninjutsu execution, and katons are better than raitons for ninja without exceptional defenses, because katons cover a much larger area while raitons focus on piercing through jutsu defenses (Kakashi has none, nor does Itachi with restrictions.)

Kakashi has better clone feints. In part one even though he wasn't able to keep up with itachi's handseals he was able to identify which one was a clone and which one wasn't. While in part two kakashi noted itachi's fireball to be weaker than expected and still caught itachi with his shadow clone.Itachi wasn't able to tell the difference until it was too late. Even pain was tricked by kakashi's clones

Kakashi's suiton's are the 4th best in the show( behind two kage and a tailless tailed beast) And are strong enough to counter itachi's two katons. If anything kakashi can block with earth wall giving him time to set up a clone/substitution feint.

Kakashi kept up with Itachi when he said Itachi was holding back (part I) and when he said Itachi was clearly stalling in part II, not to mention Itachi was only at 30%, and said that his strength and not just his jutsu pool were proportional to that, which we know is the case with clones in general...

So there really isn't an argument for Kakashi going toe to toe with Itachi in these fields.

He was holding back yet he used tsukuyomi.......
Itachi being at 30% doesn't change his sharingans analytical abilites or his psychical speed or strength. Him being at 30% just makes his jutsu's weaker. Even at 30% he still had to resort to tsukuyomi.

All in all Kakashi's jutsu list and moveset is too much for itachi. Having access to water, shadow, and lightening clones just makes his clone game more effective. He can create a water wall or an earth wall to counter itachi's fireball. He already saw through itachi's clones and when it comes to genjutsu there has to be a reason itachi resorted to tsukyomi twice.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

kakashi wins this,kakashi found ways around itachis simple genjutsus ages ago, itachi honestly doesn't have a change of winning you should make it more interesting and take MS restrictions of that way kakashi wins but with a little bit of difficulty.

If i didn't restrict ms kakashi gets shitted on by ama, toska and susanno. it wouldn't be fair

 

[Lilt]

Kakashi has better clone feints. In part one even though he wasn't able to keep up with itachi's handseals he was able to identify which one was a clone and which one wasn't.

This is because the real Kakashi had hung back and observed Itachi form the clone against Kurenai.

When he arrived underwater, he knew which was which. Feints are designed to trick targets, not bystanders.

An example of this would be Gaara using a sand clone in the moment Lee blinked. Others saw, but not Lee. By design.

While in part two kakashi noted itachi's fireball to be weaker than expected and still caught itachi with his shadow clone. Itachi wasn't able to tell the difference until it was too late.

No base Sharingan can see through clones. Only Mangekyō Sharingans or Eternal Mangekyō Sharingans.

Kakashi has been tricked by Zabuza's clones, Naruto's clones, etc. for instance.

The ONLY reason he knew it was Itachi's clone was because Itachi focused the feint on Kurenai.

Kakashi's suiton's are the 4th best in the show

It's unlikely Kakashi has more skill with ninjtusu than Itachi, or that Itachi can't copy Kakashi's jutsu.

Itachi has faster hands and chakra molding, better eyes, etc.

He was holding back yet he used tsukuyomi.......

Kakashi explicitly said Itachi was holding back both before and after Tsukuyomi.

Because Kakashi said Itachi could have killed him with Tsukuyomi alone, but didn't for some reason.

Itachi being at 30% doesn't change his sharingans analytical abilites or his psychical speed or strength.

I proved this incorrect above.

Even at 30% he still had to resort to tsukuyomi.

That wasn't Tsukuyomi. Reread the chapter, as the Mangekyō was not active when the genjutsu was used.

Besides that, Chiyo said 30% Itachi was "clearly only stalling." i.e. it's not a legit fight.

Having access to water, shadow, and lightening clones

Exploding clones are better than lightning clones here. Karasu clones are cheaper than shadow clones, but are just as effective and shock enemies (Kabuto, Sasuke) when they disperse. Itachi has better clone jutsu, and is better at clone feints, as he's tricked Sage Kabuto and EMS Sasuke.

He can create a water wall or an earth wall to counter itachi's fireball

An earth wall won't counter the fireball, and surrounding himself in a puddle of water makes him vulnerable to Sugiaiden.

He already saw through itachi's clones

When he wasn't the target, you mean. Which isn't an impressive feat.

Unless you think Naruto at the beginning of part two was a faster clone feint user than Itachi. (Hahahahahah.)

and when it comes to genjutsu there has to be a reason itachi resorted to tsukyomi twice.

The second time was not Tsukuyomi.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

This is because the real Kakashi had hung back and observed Itachi form the clone against Kurenai.


When he arrived underwater, he knew which was which. Feints are designed to trick targets, not bystanders.

An example of this would be Gaara using a sand clone in the moment Lee blinked. Others saw, but not Lee. By design.

No the real kakashi was there all along. He weaved seals for a water wall and a water clone.

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No base Sharingan can see through clones. Only Mangekyō Sharingans or Eternal Mangekyō Sharingans.

I never said it was his sharingan that gave him the ability to see through clones. When i say see through clones i meant that he knew which was a clone and which wasn't a clone. Itachi on the other hand got tricked both times.The exclamation mark says it all.

Kakashi has been tricked by Zabuza's clones, Naruto's clones, etc. for instance.

That partially true. I don't remember kakashi getting tricked by naruto's clones.

The ONLY reason he knew it was Itachi's clone was because Itachi focused the feint on Kurenai.

What led you to believe that? His opponents are kakashi, kurenai and asuma. Why would he use a feint that would only work on one?

It's unlikely Kakashi has more skill with ninjtusu than Itachi, or that Itachi can't copy Kakashi's jutsu.

Itachi can only copy his water techs. Kakashi still has his doton to cut off line of sight and his raiton for his raikiri variants. Also, if he does his suiton behind earth wall itachi can't copy it.

Itachi has faster hands and chakra molding, better eyes, etc.

Itachi might have the advantage in seals but his fire techs have been dodged by kakashi before.(albeit the fire ball was weaker seal speed remains constant)

Kakashi explicitly said Itachi was holding back both before and after Tsukuyomi.

Because Kakashi said Itachi could have killed him with Tsukuyomi alone, but didn't for some reason.

If he didn't need tsukuyomi why did he resort to it. He could have used standard genjutsu like he did to kurenai. It's not like wasn't going blind or anything....

That wasn't Tsukuyomi. Reread the chapter, as the Mangekyō was not active when the genjutsu was used.

You're right.

Besides that, Chiyo said 30% Itachi was "clearly only stalling." i.e. it's not a legit fight.

Him stalling doesn't change the fact that he was tricked.He self admittedly said:

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Exploding clones are better than lightning clones here.

I don't need your opinion on Exploding clones.It won't matter since it hit absolutely nobody since the manga started. Lightening clones shock whoever touches them effectively holding them in place.

Karasu clones are cheaper than shadow clones, but are just as effective and provide a distraction when the disperse.

True.

Itachi has better clone jutsu, and is better at clone feints, as he's tricked Sage Kabuto and Sasuke's Sharingan with them.

Kakashi tricked :Itachi, Pein, Hidan, Deidara. Sorry but kakashi has a better list(I feel like im forgetting some ppl.) It doesn't matter since he canonically tricked his current opponent. There is nothing stopping that from happening again.

An earth wall won't counter the fireball, and surrounding himself in a puddle of water makes him vulnerable to Sugiaiden.

So your're saying a wall of earth won't stop a fireball..... If kakashi counter's with water wall the water would vaporize due to the fire. And kakashi canonically blocked water drill.

When he wasn't the target, you mean. Which isn't an impressive feat at all.

Already countered.

The second time was not Tsukuyomi.

True.

 

[Lilt]

In either case, Itachi was outnumbered and and stated to be holding back in some capacity. I've already pointed out the specifics, but depending on those fights to boost Kakashi is even less valid than arguing that Nagato has to be weaker than Itachi because he lost to Itachi while outnumbered, etc.

 

[khaydz5]

Speed of clones depends on chakra percentage. That's an unequivocable truth. Not a theory.

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That's Wave Arc Sasuke (later raped by weighted Lee) raping ten 10% Zabuza clones, for instance.

Whereas one Zabuza clone held off Kakashi decently.



You're right, I was thinking of an internet scanlation. In the offical viz translation, it reads:

Asuma: I can't believe he's this good...
Kakashi: No, actually, he's better. He hasn't even begun to show his true strength.

Still though. It's also clear that Kakashi wasn't factoring in the Mangekyō, because he didn't know about it:

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As I pointed out above, when saying that, Kakashi didn't know about the MS. It wasn't a factor.

Itachi was holding back in speed and lethality. And from when? From when Kakashi knew him at age 13.

These are the subtleties in between the lines that hype Itachi that most people miss.

Which divides the perception of the character so drastically.



The exact opposite was stated, however.

Kakashi said, prior to the MS, that Itachi hadn't even begun to take them seriously.



A slight, but very important misquote. It's actually, "It can't be!?" He didn't know about it.

you maybe right about clones but you're forgetting something. the one that kakashi and naruto fought is not just a simple shadow clone that poofs out when hit. its shape shifting jutsu by nagato, which uses a host body and can be controlled by the user.

to make it short its different from what you're saying here therefor this whole theory of yours is invalid. try again.

 

[Lilt]

Just because it's a different kind of clone doesn't make the mechanics different. It has 30% of the chakra and strength.

The manga outright says that the clone's strength AND jutsu selection were proportionally limited.

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People argue about it because they're dumb.

 

[Lilt]

In fact, here we go, a translator:

In volume 29, chapter 260, page 17, Kisame explains in basic detail the function of the technique. "Well...we only gave 30% of our chakra to the 'sacrifices' after all...although it is a useful jutsu which creates duplicates of us, our strength and available jutsu are proportionally limited by the chakra we hand over, which was not all that much anyway."

I got involved in a discussion with someone insistent upon conflating "strength" and "available jutsu", that is to imply, that it was referring to "strength of available jutsu" or "strength for available jutsu".

I was quick to point out that it reads "power and available jutsu". The word "and" distinguishes "power" and "available jutsu" as two separate points of focus. It is synonymous to "as well as", "along with", or "in addition to".

I was then told that the word "and" isn't in the Japanese, and that I therefore can't use the translations to judge it by English language standards.

I'm skeptical of this, because every translation I've seen uses "power and available jutsu", "strength and in the jutsu we use", etc. If it were inaccurate to the original wording, I think at least one translation would have tried to play with the wording to get the message across better - however, I've found four different translations, all of which are very similar.

In short, I'd be very grateful if someone could break down the Japanese wording for me and explain exactly what it means.

I like to be thorough about things, so if another translator could corroborate it, that'd be ever better.

---

MangaHelpers takes forever to respond to requests. My topic has over 30 views, and no responses. There was another request posted within the first week of October that has been left unreplied. Luckily, I was able to find out from Zer0 that Chibi Mystic Gohan is the resident translator on the Dragonball boards here, and so I took his advice and used the Chibi signal.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

「力も使える術も限られてくる」

"Our power/strength and and the techniques we can use are thus limited/restricted."

In Japanese, he's saying "chikara mo tsukaeru jutsu mo," which means he's listing the things that were restricted. The "mo" is the "and" that you were looking for. The guy's either full of shit, or doesn't know much Japanese...

Mind linking me to the discussion?

and

Did the Itachi and Kisame Shouten clones possess 30% of their strength along with 30% of their chakra? Or just 30% of their chakra, with their strength remaining intact?

To get right to the point, it's undoubtedly the former, and I'm going to make sure I've established this:

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Even after seeing this, where it CLEARLY states "strength and Jutsu we can use", some people still choose to ***** about translation accuracy.

Even after being told that the official Viz translation is virtually the same word-for-word, some people still insist on denying it.

So I'm going to make it so painfully simple that even a child can no longer question it:

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It says "力も使える術も."

Or "chikara mo tsukaeru Jutsu mo."

"Chikara" being the operative word for "strength" and "tsukaeru Jutsu" subsequently being the obvious connection to "available Jutsu." The two "mo"s are the "and."

When something is said as "AもBも", grammatically, it implies that both are being talked about as separate items, or in other words being enumerated.

"Chikara mo tsukaeru Jutsu mo."

"Strength and available Jutsu."



From now on, when this issue comes up in a discussion, instead of getting into a lengthy, multi-page debate that I always end up winning anyway, I'm just going to link back to this thread.

If there are any questions/comments, just holla at'cha boi.

 

[shelke]

Itachi takes this by a land slide. He's fast both in terms of his handseals and overall body speed. With MS out of the picture, his body is without its disease and hence provides him ample mobility. As an Uchiha his 3T provides moves detection just like it for illustrated by Sasuke. He can also see Chakra, whereas the only thing Kakashi can barely manage is a bit of window for attack counter and copy wheel use.

Itachi was able to keep up with Bee and Kurama Mode Naruto and dodged every attacked. Kakashi is not doing any better. He can also use his finger to cast genjutsu. His Shurikenjutsu and Taijutsu are also superior and his Katon attacks are long ranged that provide for better attacks unlike Chidori which is a close range endeavour, which even Sasuke came over with a long ranged spear. Kakashi has no such ability.

All his attacks are overcome with speed and reaction. Itachi beats him out with 3T's superior detection and his speed alone. Mid difference max.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

In either case, Itachi was outnumbered and and stated to be holding back in some capacity. I've already pointed out the specifics, but depending on those fights to boost Kakashi is even less valid than arguing that Nagato has to be weaker than Itachi because he lost to Itachi while outnumbered, etc.

I never said he is weaker. I only said he has been tricked by kakashi's clone games, so chances are its going to happen again. It is a fact that kakashi has the best (water/shadow/lightening) clone/substitution feints in all of naruto. He's been hailed by both pain and itachi for this. Pein even took precautions when it came to killing him for this very reason.

In this location he has access to water for some of his stronger water techs and can use below and the sides of the bridge to break line of sight and set up his feints.

 

[Lilt]

It's not a fact. He tricked a 30% clone and an outnumbered Itachi.

It's debatable if he even tricked him in part one, as Itachi is a good actor.

Yes, he made "!" when he found out Sasuke was alive after his Amaterasu, too.

 

[Bogard]

Kakashi in part1 was able to keep up with Itachi in jutsu executional speed. Sure he had difficulties to follow at first, but he did keep up with him(Itachi's water jutsu countered by a water barrier, while Itachi attacks a water clone while leaving a explosive clone and original Kakashi underwater who saw thru that explosive clone but had to save Kurenai who saw nothing). More than that, he even actually got best of him not only in part1, but even in part2 in jutsu category, since in both occasions, he fooled Itachi with a clone(a water clone in part1, a Kage Bunshin in part2). Reason why Itachi was even surprised that he could use Sharingan that effectively. His speed even dramatically increased since that event. I think they are around the same speed and Kakashi is probably better in taijutsu since he can even open gates

We've already seen base Itachi vs base Kakashi happen in part2(at the moment Itachi couldn't use MS because of his 30% chakra and Kakashi was holding back the most he could because of the long mission) and in a 1vs1, Kakashi dominated the ninjutsu category since Itachi wasn't able to notice Kakashi already made a clone until it was too late. Suiton > Katon. Doton can be used for defense against everything Itachi could try to throw at him(either creating a wall or going underground), Raiton is one of the best if not the best element in close combat, but Kakashi also has long range raiton techniques(especially his lightning wolf that Itachi would have difficulties to counter since it can be controlled by far distance)

All in all, i see then Kakashi winning mid-high difficulty because of the superiority in skillset

 

[Lilt]

Kakashi in part1 was able to keep up with Itachi in jutsu executional speed.

Kakashi also said Itachi hadn't even begun to show them his real skill.

And Kakashi's expectations would have been based on 13 year old Itachi, when he last knew him.

We've already seen base Itachi vs base Kakashi happen in part2

We saw Kakashi eventually use a 50% clone and Naruto to best a 30% Itachi clone that was "clearly only stalling."

 

[Takos]

Kakashi also said Itachi hadn't even begun to show them his real skill.

And what proof do you have of Kakashi not talking about MS at this point? It's obvious Kakashi knew what MS is because he recognized it. We might argue whether he knew Itachi possessed MS, but it would be absurd if he didn't - Itachi was an S-rank criminal, originating from Konoha. Konoha intel surely gathered all the information they could and even kid Sasuke knew Itachi had MS. One of the best Konoha's ninja and a former ANBU definitely had to know this fact.

And Kakashi's expectations would have been based on 13 year old Itachi, when he last knew him.

Kakashi's expectations were based on 13-year old Itachi having MS. So you're partially right.

We saw Kakashi eventually use a 50% clone and Naruto to best a 30% Itachi clone that was "clearly only stalling."

First of all - it's a common misconception that Kakashi without Naruto would not defeat Itachi back then. He just used Naruto to preserve his own chakra. Naruto had almost infinity of chakra while Kakashi was lacking in it and that was only the beginning of their mission - Kakashi knew they might have to fight many more times during it. It's only logical that he wanted to preserve his own chakra, but he COULD just use his own Raikiri instead of ordering Naruto to use Rasengan. In fact, it would leave Itachi with even less chances of avoiding it, since Kakashi's speed is greater than Naruto's.

One more thing, don't use Kakashi's statement "Even with me as his opponent, I can't handle him myself" to prove that he needed Naruto's help. This statement was said because Kakashi thought it is the real Itachi, capable of using the MS. In other words, he claimed that with Naruto's help he can defeat real Itachi.

And besides Naruto's Rasengan, the whole fight was between Kakashi and Itachi. Even the chapter's name is "Kakashi VS Itachi". Sakura and Chiyo didn't participate at all and Naruto was in Itachi's genjutsu for the whole duel. It was 1v1 between base Itachi and base Kakashi.


And do you seriously believe a kage bunshin is stronger than Pain's jutsu that was used on Itachi? I think I'll leave it at this.
Speed of the clones might depend on their chakra, but this was a jutsu much more advanced than Kage Bunshin. Comparing these two is pointless.

All in all, Itachi Kakashi fought in Part II was the very same Itachi with 1/3 of his normal chakra.

It's unlikely Kakashi has more skill with ninjtusu than Itachi, or that Itachi can't copy Kakashi's jutsu.

Itachi has faster hands and chakra molding, better eyes, etc.

The fact that Sharingan is said to be able to copy jutsu doesn't mean Itachi can automatically copy jutsu, not to mention having such proficiency as Kakashi with this.
It's like MS - it is said to be able to control Kyuubi, but no one assumes Kakashi can control Kyuubi.
And Kakashi's ninjutsu to Itachi is like Itachi's genjutsu to Kakashi. Itachi is good in ninjutsu, but nowhere near Kakashi's level.

Because Kakashi said Itachi could have killed him with Tsukuyomi alone, but didn't for some reason.

This doesn't mean that he would defeat Kakashi without resorting to MS. Itachi would have to be stupid to deteriorate his eyesight and health just to show-off, while he could actually win without using it.

Besides that, Chiyo said 30% Itachi was "clearly only stalling." i.e. it's not a legit fight.

Please provide me with a scan, because I don't remember her saying this at all.
Not to mention that Kakashi wasn't going all out as well to preserve chakra.

 

[enditallsin]

If i didn't restrict ms kakashi gets shitted on by ama, toska and susanno. it wouldn't be fair

no actually itacho gets instant ko'd by kamui, kakashi has shown an arsenal that can counter any ****ing thing that itachi throws at him than afterwards send the ***** to hell along with his sword,mirror,and susanoo,K.O.

 

[Takos]

no actually itacho gets instant ko'd by kamui, kakashi has shown an arsenal that can counter any ****ing thing that itachi throws at him than afterwards send the ***** to hell along with his sword,mirror,and susanoo,K.O.

I have to agree here. Not restricting MS would be as unfair to Kakashi as it would to Itachi.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

It's not a fact. He tricked a 30% clone and an outnumbered Itachi.

It's debatable if he even tricked him in part one, as Itachi is a good actor.

Yes, he made "!" when he found out Sasuke was alive after his Amaterasu, too.

Just because the clone is at 30% that doesn't mean the clone isn't as smart as a 100% itachi. The only stats that drop are stats that have a direct connection to chakra levels. Handseals, and intellect don't fall into that category

 

[Lilt]

And what proof do you have of Kakashi not talking about MS at this point? It's obvious Kakashi knew what MS is because he recognized it.

Kakashi's expectations were based on 13-year old Itachi having MS. So you're partially right.

No, he didn't. He knew of the MS, but he CLEARLY indicated he didn't know Itachi possessed it.

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Why would someone say "It couldn't be!!!?" if they knew all along?

Itachi can automatically copy jutsu, not to mention having such proficiency as Kakashi with this.

Itachi was said to master that base Sharingan at age 8.

Something Kakashi didn't do until he was nearly 30.

Just because the clone is at 30% that doesn't mean the clone isn't as smart as a 100% itachi. The only stats that drop are stats that have a direct connection to chakra levels. Handseals, and intellect don't fall into that category

Falling for a feint isn't about intellect. It's a sleight of hand trick, taking advantage of a situation.

Unless you think Zabuza is smarter than Kakashi (he's not.)

So the 30% factor is a major point of contention.